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#26
Random70

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soteria wrote...

Hmm. I had planned to use the Cadash Stompers for the additional dex/str and hostility. You're right, though, the Diligence boots (whole set, really) is pretty good for a non-massive set of armor. I guess if I used Diligence on my PC I could give the Cadash Stompers to Alistair or Leli... I'll have to consider this.  Falon'Din's Reach is missing the 10 attack and 3% crit rating, not that I'm short on attack rating.


For a solo archer, yeah Stompers all the way. But for a tank/archer I'd probably look at boots/gloves of Diligence + Evon, Wade's + Evon if your planning on spamming special shots.

#27
DAO Lemon

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just out of curiosity, Is there Another build that would work as a tank archer or is this like in the works by the community/You?

#28
soteria

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If someone else has tried to create an archer as the primary tank for the group, I don't know about it.  This is an experiment, really.

I may do that, Random70. I remember those boots being pretty cheap, so I can repurpose some funds and maybe get Felon's Coat for Leliana or something.

Modifié par soteria, 03 février 2010 - 04:38 .


#29
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soteria wrote...

If someone else has tried to create an archer as the primary tank for the group, I don't know about it.  This is an experiment, really.

I may do that, Random70. I remember those boots being pretty cheap, so I can repurpose some funds and maybe get Felon's Coat for Leliana or something.


Actually, Felon's is a pretty good shirt for this build as well, depending upon what your defense stat looks like...the faster you can drop Defensive Fire the better

#30
Dlokir

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dkjestrup wrote...

This should be interesting.... Timortis, I think if soteria could get some sleeping gas traps down it should be possible, but it would be very difficult. Maybe have Leliana and the PC Scattershot at once, have Sten + Dog run in and Dread Howl + 2h Sweep, while Leliana and the PC set up the traps. With lures you could eventually get all the enemies together, for easy CCing. Problem will be surviving the scattershots.

I just can't understand how it's possible to make this fight with no potion. But about scattershots, I'm using a party with 1 mage and 3 2H warriors, and scattershots are pointless against this team... If I can use potions.

#31
soteria

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Another brief update, this time with video. I decided to save Owen's daughter and take the boots instead of the bow. I think next I'll probably do Warden's Keep, followed by the Deep Roads and the remainder of Brecilian Forest. That's if I don't stop by the Urn to pick up the Armor of Diligence as a stepping stone to Evon's. I do think I want Evon's vice Felon's. Defense is great, but there's so many ways to raise it, and only a few ways to raise armor. I need to be able to survive Overwhelms and stuns, too.

Anyway, I've gotten to the point where I actually have enough defense and armor that I can tank well. More importantly, my group now has the abilities and gear to handle most situations. Cailan's Armor + Nug Crusher feels a little over the top, though... more OP DLC gear, here we go. Leliana and Alistair have an awful tendency to die, though.

Dlokir, it's not a question of whether the fight itself is possible without potions. You could watch this fight, or, in this one, I explain my strategy for it.  The question is whether it can be done without a mage (without potions).

Modifié par soteria, 03 février 2010 - 10:22 .


#32
soteria

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I've finished everything except the Deep Roads, now, and am level 18. With double rally up I think I'm around 120 defense, with 41 armor and ~4 health regen. Despite that, I'm still not really indestructible. I had an elite qunari mercenary hit me with final blow or something and I just dropped. It was a little shocking, to be honest, because I had hit Devour right before that.

Anyhow, I finally filled out the archery tree completely. I probably should have done that before picking up champion/reaver talents, but back around level 10 I still felt like I needed more mitigation tools. Now that Leliana and my PC both have Suppressing Fire, though, tanking big bads is a cinch. Typically for just a random trash fight, I'll run in and Scattershot, getting everyone's attention, then AoS an elite or a mage. Sten and Alistair are both set to spam their talents, going off Sten's target. With Leliana, I have her open with AoS and follow up with another Scattershot. Typically by the time that happens, if Sten uses 2h sweep and Alistair uses his aoe abilities, half the crowd is dead before they had a chance to deal damage--especially now that warcry knocks enemies back.

This was an extremely easy Jarvia kill. The one advantage I'd say the archer tank has over the S&S tank is getting solid aggro on the whole room early on via Scattershot. Usually I've had my other warriors just run in first and taunt, but it can be hard to catch everyone in the initial taunt.

Modifié par soteria, 04 février 2010 - 10:43 .


#33
DAO Lemon

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Very nice, your character looks pretty sick, although The boots kinda throw it off, nonetheless its a nice build.

#34
soteria

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Yeah, I look like a fruit, but the character is pretty strong. Good balance of power and durability.

#35
DAO Lemon

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Quick question, Why do you choose Gloves/Boots of Diligence? Is there an alternative for them or do they provide something that nothing else has? :|

#36
dkjestrup

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The Gloves/Boots of Diligence are the best for him. They're heavy armor (I think?) so they don't give you a penalty to attack speed. They also have a +armor attribute, which of course is great for tanking, and makes them as good as or better than most Massive sets.

#37
soteria

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Exactly. They're heavy armor, and provide an additional armor bonus. The boots also have +6 defense, arguably the best tanking boots in the game for ANY build. In my previous game, Alistair had 40 armor using massive armor in those slots (this guy has 41). I think I used Cailan's gloves and boots in that game. I could switch the boots of diligence out for the Cadash Stompers, but I'd just as soon give those to Alistair to improve his damage output.

#38
soteria

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I did it! Take THAT, doubters! :)



Full explanation is in the sidebar on the video.

#39
dkjestrup

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Nice one!



Now I guess the pressure is on for me to do that in my current run (No potions, no injuries, PC Dalish Dual Wield Warrior) lol.

#40
Random70

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soteria wrote...

I did it! Take THAT, doubters! :)

Full explanation is in the sidebar on the video.


Very Nice!

#41
DAO Lemon

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Very well done, Liked the build :), another question, you say scattershot does reduced damage on other archers, but by how much?

#42
dkjestrup

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He means that by the time he's wound up his own scattershot the enemy will have too, so it's pointless as they'd both be stunned.



You could've used Holy Smite for the knockdown first, then used Scattershot though, right?

#43
DAO Lemon

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Oh ok, so its still useful Good to know :), although i cant really answer that question as i generally stray away from warriors.

#44
dkjestrup

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I was asking Soteria lol. Guess he just didn't need to. Can I ask how many attempts it took to come up with the strategy/beat it.

#45
soteria

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On my second try it came down to a duel between my PC and Cauthrien, which I lost (and wouldn't have posted regardless). The fourth try I won, but was still opening with Scattershot, giving Cauthrien time to beat up on Alistair and Sten, and I realized I could do better if I just focused on getting Ser Cauthrien's attention on me and off the squishies. The next two or three attempts I was unlucky or made mistakes, and I think the video is my eighth or ninth. It took so few (relatively speaking) because I've done the fight in similar conditions twice before and already knew exactly what the enemy would do for most of the fight. Plus, since I tend to stick with the same group through the whole game, at this point everyone is working as a team.



And yeah, it's the fact that the archers and I were just stunning each other that caused me to stop opening with Scattershot. The result was, my PC would spend the first three seconds winding up a shot, and then the next two stunned, giving Ser Cauthrien too much time to potentially kill someone.



Holy Smite, being instant, was more useful. I'm pretty sure one of the two archers by the mage Scattershots me regardless, so I don't think I could have gotten one off at that point. Maybe if I had two Templars, I could have used Holy Smite on two groups and bombed another to death, and avoided the initial scattershot, but I don't think a single or even two characters can throw enough grenades to take them down before they shoot.

#46
soteria

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All right, so I've had some time to kill the Archdemon and ruminate on the build. I think most of us already know archery is a bit underwhelming, so I'll try to avoid dwelling on that. Inc long post.



The power curve of this build was not what I expected. I made a beeline for Master Archer for that early +30 bonus to defense, but it really wasn't all that useful. A number of the early "hard" fights completely negate defense (wolves overwhelming, Ogre, Uldred), and since I was trying to get AoS and Master Archer early, I raised dexterity at the expense of strength. Consequently, I was late wearing heavy armor, and still couldn't tank effectively even with defensive fire. The bandits at Lothering and pretty much everything else could still chew me up in a hurry.



After I got AoS, I picked up the Champion spec and invested in that and the warrior tree, moving toward Deathblow. My logic was that I was still too squishy and that without deathblow I wouldn't have the stamina to use both Scattershot and AoS regardless. This was a mistake. In fact, going for AoS early was a mistake--I should have gone for Scattershot first, I think. Leliana did pick up scattershot, and Sten had 2h sweep and Alistair had DW sweep/whirlwind, so my PC was the only one with no aoe damage capabilities. Additionally, it was too easy for Leliana to get killed by pulling aggro on archers with Scattershot, which I had no good way of pulling off her.



AoS was fairly useful as a quick way to eliminate a single enemy, but as a non-templar and non-rogue I wasn't impressed with its capabilities as a mage-killer. I always had to have someone else in front of me to kill a mage with it, or I would get hit with crushing prison. It was useful to take out half an elite mage's health, but I found Alistair to be all-around better at the job, from being a templar of course.



Scattershot is really the only leg up the archer has on the S&S warrior. It lets the archer get the attention of all the enemy archers without having to worry as much about positioning. One mild surprise I found was that I ended up using Threaten, something I haven't done since my first game. It was actually quite useful, especially with Frightening Appearance. I suspect if S&S warriors had any sort of area effect attack, they would use Threaten more as well. Threaten + Frightening Appearance + Scattershot = long range taunt.



I said before that early on I was not an effective tank. When did I become effective? About the same time any other tank does, around level 10. By level 15, in line with previous experiences with a "normal" tank, I was quite tough. The gear I ended up using, as I said earlier, was mostly the same gear I would recommend for any tank: Evon the Great's Mail + Diligence Gloves/Boots, Lifegiver, Andruil's Blessing, Blood-gorged Amulet, and Helm of Honnleath.



Once I was fully realized, in terms of toughness, I would definitely put it on par with a classic tank build. You actually end up surprisingly weak vs archers, because even with the best gear you're behind a S&S tank's natural bonuses vs ranged weapons. Fortunately ~40 armor cancels most of that out even when they do hit you, and decent health regen takes care of the rest. I believe I tended to take more damage than Alistair did in the last Cauthrien fight, but that could have been because Morrigan wasn't around to CC everything and prevent the stuns. I definitely died pretty quickly to her without defensive fire up.



One question I think several of us had was, "How effective can it be without knockdown immunity?" Fairly effective in most situations, but almost completely ineffective in others. I could not tank a dragon or an ogre, since I lacked both Shale's Grab immunity and the S&S warrior's knockdown immunity. Sten filled in for those, using Cailan's Armor's amazing health regen. I also built him raising str and dex in a 2:1 ratio, since I knew my whole group would have to be tough or die.



Another idea that was brought up before: being a higher damage tank, or a character that could switch from damage to tanking mode in a pinch. First, I wouldn't recommend tanking without heavy armor, but I suppose a damage-oriented archer wearing Wade's heavy stuff could probably fill in for some fights in a pinch.



Second, you are not a higher damage tank when defensive fire is up. At least, it didn't feel like it. 50-60 damage every three seconds isn't a heck of a lot, and you're not going to be using a lot of abilities when you're actively tanking something tough enough to warrant defensive/suppressing fire (you can have both active). Between rally, suppressing fire, defensive fire, taunt, and using warcry every time it's up, you really don't have anything left for a lot of actives.



The specializations I used and would recommend would be the same as those for any other tank, and for the same reasons. Nothing more to comment on that. And to compare this to a rogue archer... I really can't. The rogue archer isn't tanking and doesn't want to. Those are all my thoughts for now.



Watch this playlist or scroll back up the thread if you want to see the three videos I posted from this run.

#47
shree420

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Thanks for the info. Do you think Templar would've been better instead of Reaver for its spell resistance bonuses, making you a better magekiller, as well as allowing you to get better armor earlier in the game?

#48
soteria

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It's possible. By the time I took Reaver (as my second spec) I really didn't need the healing from it any more. I ultimately decided killing mages wasn't that important, since a dual-wielding Alistair could Holy Smite and walk in and destroy any mage in seconds, but higher resists would have helped vs mages.

#49
Oak Tree Leaf

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Er nvm about that question, I will just send ya a message xD

Modifié par Oak Tree Leaf, 14 février 2010 - 06:53 .


#50
dkjestrup

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I wonder if a dex-based 2h warrior could do that fight solo no pots? You'd need to kite Ser Cauthrien around the room when she activates Perfect striking, but it just MIGHT be possible with Reaver heals.