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Gay Shepard Part 2


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#2751
ReDSH1FT

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Ryuuichi009 wrote...

Edit about the predined character bit: The main PC in JE was far more predefined than Shepard ever was.<_
And yet amusingly enough you could be a gay male. Go figure. :o

Poor Jade Empire. Always being forgotten even by the BioWare devs themselves. :crying: *huggles*


Horrible argument.  The main character in JE can be a wide range of archetypes with several different disciplines, I own the game.  Shepard is an alliance n7 hetero marine.

#2752
JamesMoriarty123

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If you don't want to look at the pre-determined angle, lets take it from a dev decision angle. 2 games, 2 option to implement. Denied both times.

So whats the counter argument here?

Modifié par JamesMoriarty123, 09 février 2010 - 03:20 .


#2753
FataliTensei

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JamesMoriarty123 wrote...

Spatchmo wrote...

Could you guys just not respond to RedSh1ft and and JamesMoriarity123? Red started the "Gay Shepard is a bad idea..." thread and there is nothing you can say that will change his mind, and James was his big (and mostly only) supporter in that thread. I can respect their opinions, but neither of them are particularly civil, and if you take their bait, this thread is just going to get locked.

On topic, I find the IGN interview both condescending and hypocritical, regarding gay Shepard. It would be a different case if female Shepard couldn't be a lesbian. I would like Mr. Muzyki to clarify how Shepard isn't as customizable as the Warden in Dragon Age, and also why female Shepard can be gay, but not male Shepard.


Actually there were a lot of supporters for the other threads. Read my posts, I haven't incited or insulted anyone. Just trying to dismiss our opinions because you can't come up with a counter argument is pretty sad.


I believe you wee quite rude to ryuuichi quite a few times >_>

#2754
JamesMoriarty123

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FataliTensei wrote...

JamesMoriarty123 wrote...

Spatchmo wrote...

Could you guys just not respond to RedSh1ft and and JamesMoriarity123? Red started the "Gay Shepard is a bad idea..." thread and there is nothing you can say that will change his mind, and James was his big (and mostly only) supporter in that thread. I can respect their opinions, but neither of them are particularly civil, and if you take their bait, this thread is just going to get locked.

On topic, I find the IGN interview both condescending and hypocritical, regarding gay Shepard. It would be a different case if female Shepard couldn't be a lesbian. I would like Mr. Muzyki to clarify how Shepard isn't as customizable as the Warden in Dragon Age, and also why female Shepard can be gay, but not male Shepard.


Actually there were a lot of supporters for the other threads. Read my posts, I haven't incited or insulted anyone. Just trying to dismiss our opinions because you can't come up with a counter argument is pretty sad.


I believe you wee quite rude to ryuuichi quite a few times >_>


Asking her what her fascination in m/m romance is as a woman? How is that insulting? She didn't respond so I drew my own conclusions. Fair play.

#2755
ReDSH1FT

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LoveAsThouWilt wrote...

Then make a POINT and be sensible stop falling back on "he's Iconic" "he's predetermined" because it is rubbish that we have already covered as a falsehood.


Yes, you've exposed the falsehood of co-president Dr. Muzyka's statement with your peer reviewed workshop.

#2756
DoctorOctagonapus

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JamesMoriarty123 wrote...

DoctorOctagonapus wrote...

JamesMoriarty123 wrote...

Jimmy Fury wrote...

Sorry, completely distracted by heroes.

Alright Moriarty let's have a nice civil discussion on a concept of potential middle ground for both sides.
Hendel from one of the novels is a gay biotic marine. If he was included in DLC, Exp., or ME3 then it would not involve any change to any established character. This morning I said I agree with you that changing characters at this stage would be a lousy idea.
Bringing in a new character though, especially one who is an already established part of the universe (and could boost sales of the book by encouraging people to buy that to find out the backstory), is another matter entirely.

Or. What about an Expansion bridging ME2 and ME3 and introducing new characters who can be squad members or contacts in ME3. This would not be a new concept for BioWare as Awakening is bridging DAO and DAO2 and ME:Galaxy introduced Jacob and Miranda.
This Expansion could also function to lay the ground work for a new series of games that follows ME since we all agree that the universe should not die after Shep's story is over.

Also note that this is no way goes against any possible interpretation of Muzyka's statement. Even if you take it as saying no m/m in ME, he clearly states that anything is possible in future games.


If they released a gay character as DLC like Zaeed, and it in NO WAY affected the development and/or outcome of the already established storyline/characters and in ME3 it wasn't present and no reference was made to it if you didn't buy it, then dude, for my money, they could make the ****er tomorrow. Cos I simply wouldn't buy it, and it's no sweat.

As I have previously stated many times, I have nothing against a gay character. One of my favourite fictional characters is Louis from the John Connolly novels. A 6ft tall, sharp dressing bacl assassin, who just happends to be a gay man.

As we're keeping this civil, allow me to try again to represent my position. For me and most ME gamers, Shepherd is something of a gaming icon, enough to rival Gordon Freeman or JC Denton. As Muzyka said, ME is about taking us through Shepherd life, allowing us to tailor parts, but still preserving the central portion of his life. Now if a gay romance had been present since ME1, well there wouldn't be any need for this discussion and I wouldn't oppose it. I mean I played DA through twice and I didn't even REALISE there was a gay option. But the fact is ME isnt DA, Shepherd has a backstory, and an image. Through 2 games he's been entirely hetero, dev's even compared him to the main man, James Tiberius Kirk.

Obviously I understand the desire for a gay man to want to play a gay man in-game, but it's just a little late for all that. I mean the way the thread is written, people say it like it's their right, but as Muzyka says, Shepherd is more defined that any other Bioware PC, he has set attributes. FemShep is included, but thats because there's roughly a 50/50 ratio of men and women in the world, lol. The same cannot be said for Homosexuals.




I disagree that Shepard is so pre-defined. for one thing, his entire past up to that point is up to the player. Most of his personality is as well. Shepard can a virtuous soldier or a ruthless douchebag. He can be a pacifist, or a war mongerer. A genocidist, or a humanist. When someone brings up Shepard, whoever comes to your mind may be totally different than what comes to mine. The face, gender, strategies, fighting tactics, and attitudes could be completely changed.


His story is more defined than any other Bioware game however. You cannot choose everything about Shepherd.
You can't choose his race, or at this point his sexual orientation.
You can't choose not to be an Alliance soldier, you can't choose not defeat Saren, you can't even choose exactly what the guy says.

The pre-definition is an issue, but it isnt the main one. The lynchpin of the argument is that they had the OPTION to include it, yet they didn't. Twice. That makes him pre-defined in of itself, as clearly they are preserving his sexual orientation by removing the option to be gay. As previously stated, it isn't the same as allowing you to be female. Half the human race is female. A claim the homosexual community cannot make.



Well alot of that is present in most BioWare games. Take DA. You can change your past and certain moral decisions, but you're always a Grey Warden, you're always fighting the darkspawn, and you're always towing that poisonous **** Morrigan. Really, aside from the Origin story and the occasional shoehorned "Hello you are race X and class Y" the conversations were pretty rigid. In fact I'd wager that the possible Wardens are actually less or about equal with the possible Shepards.

#2757
BrandNewMan

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Hey Ryuuichi, did you ever see this pic I uploaded of Kaidan and maleshep? (not safe for heteros)

i50.tinypic.com/2ztf3mg.png

#2758
Guest_Ryuuichi009_*

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[quote]ReDSH1FT wrote...

[quote]Ryuuichi009 wrote...

Edit about the predined character bit: The main PC in JE was far more predefined than Shepard ever was.<_
And yet amusingly enough you could be a gay male. Go figure. :o

Poor Jade Empire. Always being forgotten even by the BioWare devs themselves. :crying: *huggles*
[/quote]

Horrible argument.  The main character in JE can be a wide range of archetypes with several different disciplines, I own the game.  Shepard is an alliance n7 hetero marine.
[/quote]

And the hero from Jade Empire wasn't Master LI's top student irregardless of anything else? You're basically arguing that having different fighting styles makes them different from Shep who can be an Adept, Infilitrator, Solider, etc? Really? :lol:

And your character was predefined as a nice guy. If you had more than 3 conversations with Dawn Star as a CF you should know that already. <_< "You...you didn't use to be like this..." this is from the character who is predetermined (no matter what you do) to be your childhood friend. [/quote]

Yay for my whole valid argument being completely ignored. :wizard:

Modifié par Ryuuichi009, 09 février 2010 - 04:09 .


#2759
Akrim_Drak

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ReDSH1FT wrote...

@doctoroctogonopus

Can you choose not to defeat Saren? Can you choose a different starship? How about the collectors, can you choose not to do the suicide mission?

Predefinition. Shepard also has traits that are his own. He was an alliance n7 marine in EVERYONE'S game. He served under Anderson, etc. He's also hetero.


Can you choose not to defeat the Archdemon? How about can you choose whether or not to be a Grey Warden? Can you choose not to go with Duncan? Oh wait... 

#2760
Arik7

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BrandNewMan wrote...

Hey Ryuuichi, did you ever see this pic I uploaded of Kaidan and maleshep? (not safe for heteros)

i50.tinypic.com/2ztf3mg.png

How did you do this?

#2761
Eternal Dust

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This forum could benefit with an ignore button.

#2762
ReDSH1FT

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FataliTensei wrote...

ReDSH1FT wrote...

FataliTensei wrote...

ReDSH1FT wrote...

DoctorOctagonapus wrote...

I agree that it's a little late, this ship has probably sailed, and we'll probably not ever see a gay John Shepard. Really I'm just hoping they'll consider it for Sean Jepard or whoever the next big BioWare mascot is.


That would be totally cool in my book.  I would be completely ok if Sean Shepard has a ****** option.


Now you're just contradicting yourself...


Wouldn't expect you to comprehend what I've been saying this whole time.


I'm not sure you understand what you're saying....are you a troll? really, just be honest with usImage IPB


My argument is for Shepard, it's for changing an established character.

I could care less if the next character has ****** options.  If he does, and then they choose to make him completely straight in the sequel, I would be upset.

Changing the character is wrong.  That's my stance.

#2763
LoveAsThouWilt

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ReDSH1FT wrote...

@doctoroctogonopus

Can you choose not to defeat Saren? Can you choose a different starship? How about the collectors, can you choose not to do the suicide mission?

Predefinition. Shepard also has traits that are his own. He was an alliance n7 marine in EVERYONE'S game. He served under Anderson, etc. He's also hetero.


OMNISEXUAL. My Shepard romanced Liara and according to Casey Hudson Liara, as an asari, is not a female. So therefore my Shepard could romance a man down the line :P

#2764
KateKane

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JamesMoriarty123 wrote...

If you don't want to look at the pre-determined angle, lets take it from a dev decision angle. 2 games, 2 option to implement. Denied both times.

So whats the counter argument here?

What is there to argue? Those are facts.
What we're saying is that they should not have denied us the option, and we'd like to see it in the future.

#2765
ReDSH1FT

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Ryuuichi009 wrote...

ReDSH1FT wrote...

Ryuuichi009 wrote...

Edit about the predined character bit: The main PC in JE was far more predefined than Shepard ever was.<_
And yet amusingly enough you could be a gay male. Go figure. :o

Poor Jade Empire. Always being forgotten even by the BioWare devs themselves. :crying: *huggles*


Horrible argument.  The main character in JE can be a wide range of archetypes with several different disciplines, I own the game.  Shepard is an alliance n7 hetero marine.


And the hero from Jade Empire wasn't Master LI's top student irregardless of anything else? You're basically arguing that having different fighting styles makes them different from Shep who can be an Adept, Infilitrator, Solider, etc? Really? :lol:


No, look at the characters.  Christ how blind are you?  The chosen one is all preppy, then you got the beast looking dude, and the monk looking guy.  Mass Effect has an iconic model for Shepard in commercials, box art, products, etc.

Drop the JE argument, you're failing.

#2766
JamesMoriarty123

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DoctorOctagonapus wrote...

JamesMoriarty123 wrote...

DoctorOctagonapus wrote...

JamesMoriarty123 wrote...

Jimmy Fury wrote...

Sorry, completely distracted by heroes.

Alright Moriarty let's have a nice civil discussion on a concept of potential middle ground for both sides.
Hendel from one of the novels is a gay biotic marine. If he was included in DLC, Exp., or ME3 then it would not involve any change to any established character. This morning I said I agree with you that changing characters at this stage would be a lousy idea.
Bringing in a new character though, especially one who is an already established part of the universe (and could boost sales of the book by encouraging people to buy that to find out the backstory), is another matter entirely.

Or. What about an Expansion bridging ME2 and ME3 and introducing new characters who can be squad members or contacts in ME3. This would not be a new concept for BioWare as Awakening is bridging DAO and DAO2 and ME:Galaxy introduced Jacob and Miranda.
This Expansion could also function to lay the ground work for a new series of games that follows ME since we all agree that the universe should not die after Shep's story is over.

Also note that this is no way goes against any possible interpretation of Muzyka's statement. Even if you take it as saying no m/m in ME, he clearly states that anything is possible in future games.


If they released a gay character as DLC like Zaeed, and it in NO WAY affected the development and/or outcome of the already established storyline/characters and in ME3 it wasn't present and no reference was made to it if you didn't buy it, then dude, for my money, they could make the ****er tomorrow. Cos I simply wouldn't buy it, and it's no sweat.

As I have previously stated many times, I have nothing against a gay character. One of my favourite fictional characters is Louis from the John Connolly novels. A 6ft tall, sharp dressing bacl assassin, who just happends to be a gay man.

As we're keeping this civil, allow me to try again to represent my position. For me and most ME gamers, Shepherd is something of a gaming icon, enough to rival Gordon Freeman or JC Denton. As Muzyka said, ME is about taking us through Shepherd life, allowing us to tailor parts, but still preserving the central portion of his life. Now if a gay romance had been present since ME1, well there wouldn't be any need for this discussion and I wouldn't oppose it. I mean I played DA through twice and I didn't even REALISE there was a gay option. But the fact is ME isnt DA, Shepherd has a backstory, and an image. Through 2 games he's been entirely hetero, dev's even compared him to the main man, James Tiberius Kirk.

Obviously I understand the desire for a gay man to want to play a gay man in-game, but it's just a little late for all that. I mean the way the thread is written, people say it like it's their right, but as Muzyka says, Shepherd is more defined that any other Bioware PC, he has set attributes. FemShep is included, but thats because there's roughly a 50/50 ratio of men and women in the world, lol. The same cannot be said for Homosexuals.




I disagree that Shepard is so pre-defined. for one thing, his entire past up to that point is up to the player. Most of his personality is as well. Shepard can a virtuous soldier or a ruthless douchebag. He can be a pacifist, or a war mongerer. A genocidist, or a humanist. When someone brings up Shepard, whoever comes to your mind may be totally different than what comes to mine. The face, gender, strategies, fighting tactics, and attitudes could be completely changed.


His story is more defined than any other Bioware game however. You cannot choose everything about Shepherd.
You can't choose his race, or at this point his sexual orientation.
You can't choose not to be an Alliance soldier, you can't choose not defeat Saren, you can't even choose exactly what the guy says.

The pre-definition is an issue, but it isnt the main one. The lynchpin of the argument is that they had the OPTION to include it, yet they didn't. Twice. That makes him pre-defined in of itself, as clearly they are preserving his sexual orientation by removing the option to be gay. As previously stated, it isn't the same as allowing you to be female. Half the human race is female. A claim the homosexual community cannot make.



Well alot of that is present in most BioWare games. Take DA. You can change your past and certain moral decisions, but you're always a Grey Warden, you're always fighting the darkspawn, and you're always towing that poisonous **** Morrigan. Really, aside from the Origin story and the occasional shoehorned "Hello you are race X and class Y" the conversations were pretty rigid. In fact I'd wager that the possible Wardens are actually less or about equal with the possible Shepards.


Shepherd can be a man or woman. In DA you can be a Man/Woman of 3 Races. In DA the origins actually have a significant impact on your whole playthrough. I mean that's what they were aiming for, they talked about it for months in the dev diaries.

The customisation of Shepherd affects 1/2 quests and less that a couple of paragraphs of Dialogue. In DA the whole world responds to you differently depending on your origin and how you handled it.

On the flipside to rejecting the pre-defined theory, if anyone can actually give me a vaild reason why it is an absolute necessity to have a m/m romance I'd be overjoyed. I mean why does there HAVE to be an option, given the extremely small percentage of gay people in the playerbase?

#2767
Ninja Mage

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ReDSH1FT wrote...

@doctoroctogonopus

Can you choose not to defeat Saren? Can you choose a different starship? How about the collectors, can you choose not to do the suicide mission?

Predefinition. Shepard also has traits that are his own. He was an alliance n7 marine in EVERYONE'S game. He served under Anderson, etc. He's also hetero.



Muzkya was wrong, in my opinion, because a gay romance isn't really a pre-determined variable. Any type of romance is always going to be a CHOICE. Thats why fem shep can be a lesbian, and why there are 3 different romance options. Story Elements are categorized under pre-defined choices, dialogue options and therefore romance options have never been pre-defined in a bioware game

Modifié par Ninja Mage, 09 février 2010 - 03:27 .


#2768
LoveAsThouWilt

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BrandNewMan wrote...

Hey Ryuuichi, did you ever see this pic I uploaded of Kaidan and maleshep? (not safe for heteros)

i50.tinypic.com/2ztf3mg.png


Its my desktop background

#2769
ReDSH1FT

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LoveAsThouWilt wrote...

ReDSH1FT wrote...

@doctoroctogonopus

Can you choose not to defeat Saren? Can you choose a different starship? How about the collectors, can you choose not to do the suicide mission?

Predefinition. Shepard also has traits that are his own. He was an alliance n7 marine in EVERYONE'S game. He served under Anderson, etc. He's also hetero.


OMNISEXUAL. My Shepard romanced Liara and according to Casey Hudson Liara, as an asari, is not a female. So therefore my Shepard could romance a man down the line :P


Liara is a chick, and no, your fantasy of a ****** Shepard will never come true.  I would pay to watch you guys cry when ME3 comes out.

#2770
DoctorOctagonapus

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ReDSH1FT wrote...

@doctoroctogonopus

Can you choose not to defeat Saren? Can you choose a different starship? How about the collectors, can you choose not to do the suicide mission?

Predefinition. Shepard also has traits that are his own. He was an alliance n7 marine in EVERYONE'S game. He served under Anderson, etc. He's also hetero.


Look at other BioWare games. Can you choose Not to kill the Emperor or your Master in Jade Empire. the hero in Jade Empire is much more pre-defined than Shepard, and he can still bone a dude. Most people didn't even realise that was a possibility. What if my Shepard hasn't had sex with anybody yet? Could you offer any other explanation to why he has all that fine ass under his command and doesn't tap any of it?

#2771
Guest_Ryuuichi009_*

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ReDSH1FT wrote...

Ryuuichi009 wrote...

ReDSH1FT wrote...

Ryuuichi009 wrote...

Edit about the predined character bit: The main PC in JE was far more predefined than Shepard ever was.<_
And yet amusingly enough you could be a gay male. Go figure. :o

Poor Jade Empire. Always being forgotten even by the BioWare devs themselves. :crying: *huggles*


Horrible argument.  The main character in JE can be a wide range of archetypes with several different disciplines, I own the game.  Shepard is an alliance n7 hetero marine.


And the hero from Jade Empire wasn't Master LI's top student irregardless of anything else? You're basically arguing that having different fighting styles makes them different from Shep who can be an Adept, Infilitrator, Solider, etc? Really? :lol:


No, look at the characters.  Christ how blind are you?  The chosen one is all preppy, then you got the beast looking dude, and the monk looking guy.  Mass Effect has an iconic model for Shepard in commercials, box art, products, etc.

Drop the JE argument, you're failing.


Ha. :lol: Nice try trying to hide behind that. "He's ICONIC!" to justify that. Default Shep is another can of worms. You're arguing why anyone Shep can't have a gay option. Not why Default Sheploo can't.

But you obviously don't want to actually read into my arguments and want to hide behind your "Default Sheploo!" shield. 

I'm pretty sure Furious Ming was seen all over the box art as well. :innocent:

#2772
hycer

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LoveAsThouWilt wrote...

Then make a POINT and be sensible stop falling back on "he's Iconic" "he's predetermined" because it is rubbish that we have already covered as a falsehood.

I don't think there will ever be any agreements between the two sides, or one side is convinced by the other.  So the same argument will keep going and looping.  Obviously we are not going to give up asking for gay romance and they might or might not get tired and quit.  I think it's a good idea to just ignore their posts.

#2773
Arik7

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ReDSH1FT wrote...
Horrible argument.  The main character in JE can be a wide range of archetypes with several different disciplines, I own the game.  Shepard is an alliance n7 hetero marine.

Check out the n7 hetero marine in action:

#2774
FataliTensei

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JamesMoriarty123 wrote...

FataliTensei wrote...

JamesMoriarty123 wrote...

Spatchmo wrote...

Could you guys just not respond to RedSh1ft and and JamesMoriarity123? Red started the "Gay Shepard is a bad idea..." thread and there is nothing you can say that will change his mind, and James was his big (and mostly only) supporter in that thread. I can respect their opinions, but neither of them are particularly civil, and if you take their bait, this thread is just going to get locked.

On topic, I find the IGN interview both condescending and hypocritical, regarding gay Shepard. It would be a different case if female Shepard couldn't be a lesbian. I would like Mr. Muzyki to clarify how Shepard isn't as customizable as the Warden in Dragon Age, and also why female Shepard can be gay, but not male Shepard.


Actually there were a lot of supporters for the other threads. Read my posts, I haven't incited or insulted anyone. Just trying to dismiss our opinions because you can't come up with a counter argument is pretty sad.


I believe you wee quite rude to ryuuichi quite a few times >_>


Asking her what her fascination in m/m romance is as a woman? How is that insulting? She didn't respond so I drew my own conclusions. Fair play.


The way you asked it was insulting ad she replied that she wouldnot respond to such a obvious troll post, you proceed to bash her for the next few posts, along wth red

#2775
DoctorOctagonapus

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ReDSH1FT wrote...

LoveAsThouWilt wrote...

ReDSH1FT wrote...

@doctoroctogonopus

Can you choose not to defeat Saren? Can you choose a different starship? How about the collectors, can you choose not to do the suicide mission?

Predefinition. Shepard also has traits that are his own. He was an alliance n7 marine in EVERYONE'S game. He served under Anderson, etc. He's also hetero.


OMNISEXUAL. My Shepard romanced Liara and according to Casey Hudson Liara, as an asari, is not a female. So therefore my Shepard could romance a man down the line :P


Liara is a chick, and no, your fantasy of a ****** Shepard will never come true.  I would pay to watch you guys cry when ME3 comes out.


For the record, this sort of thing is why people say you're a troll