3059 réponses à ce sujet

[Policyofnoreturn]

Lightice_av wrote...

*sigh*
I'm somewhat dissapointed. Were people here just for the bloody fights? Constructive discussion is in order, not just simple agreement.

Lets try to take some iniative here: what do you think the reason behind leaving the same-sex content out of Mass Effect 2 was, and what would be the best way to alleviate this for ME3? I personally suspect that marketing was at fault here; Bioware hasn't feared controversy in the past, and has actually benefitted from it. Electronic Arts is a more conservative venture, but they had no issue with similar content in Dragon Age. Hence, it's most likely to assume that the marketing determined that there is no demand for such content.

Now, how would this assumption be alleviated? This thread is a good start, but it won't go anywhere if people don't do anything but argue with trolls in it. This is a test-run, I would suspect; an attempt by the moderators, and by the extension the dev team to see if there is anything really behind it or not. I would say that more needs to be done than just request threads to maximize the possibility for the pleas to be heard.

Now, does anyone else feel interested in adding or arguing anything I suggested, or an entirely different path to offer?

The funny thing is that I personally can't see many reasons to exclude same-sex romance:
- more romance options translates to more replayability - we get to explore alternative branches of the story;
- it's fairer to gamers than confining them to a certain style of interaction - again it boils down to gamer choice - nothing wrong with providing customers with more options;

I suppose that there might have been a perception that the demand for same-sex romance would be low, however this seems unlikely since I suspect that many gamers (male or female) opted for the Liara option in ME1. Bioware has earned a well-deserved reputation for progressive and intricate game and story craftsmanship - I don't see the point in intentionally reducing the spectrum of choices available to role-players.

I'm pleased that this thread has remained open and look forward to seeing what others think.

Modifié par Policyofnoreturn, 04 février 2010 - 12:26 .

[Akrim_Drak]

La Sangreal wrote...

I think I might make new saves for ME1 so people can play the maleshep and femshep same-sex romances in their entirety. Right now I've only made saves available that were right before Ilos. Hrmmm...

I'd love that. That way I could import it to ME2 as well with other sidequests and stuff completed :happy:

And ontopic a sort of flip flop...

I can't say I'm a big fan of how they SHOVED heterosexuality in my face in ME2, for both genders. Can't give examples as that's spoiler material though... So much for "Your Shepard" eh? In the first game at least it was easy to avoid but this one, not so much. Sigh... If you're not going to give people same-sex options at least don't continually shove the other options on them.

[smudgedhorizon]

Skemte wrote...

smudgedhorizon wrote...

It's not just youngsters who are homophobic; homosexuality is against many religions/personal beliefs, especially with the older generation. My father is not homophobic (in the sense that he is not bothered how people choose to live their lives/live and let live philosophy) however I know for a fact he would not be happy with my younger brother playing a video game that had homosexual romances available, nor myself when I was 15/16 years old. I think that just because gay rights has told us that it is now acceptable, doesn't mean the majority of people either personally see it as acceptable, or want it to be overtly in their faces.

As for Liara in ME1 - the asari are neither male nor female so her romance was neither straight nor gay.

  But he is ok with the profanity, the violence in which you can blow peoples brains out or watch people get harvested in to bloody chunks, or other such things?  

Yep; and you don't have to point out the irony, I'm well aware
My only point was that for a lot of people, homosexual references make them uncomfortable, and they don't want to associate with it, however daft that attitude may be. Sadly the more the issue is forced on people who feel that way, the more against the entire thing they become.

[smudgedhorizon]

Akrim_Drak wrote...

I can't say I'm a big fan of how they SHOVED heterosexuality in my face in ME2, for both genders. Can't give examples as that's spoiler material though... So much for "Your Shepard" eh? In the first game at least it was easy to avoid but this one, not so much. Sigh... If you're not going to give people same-sex options at least don't continually shove the other options on them.

Tell me about it! I'm not gay but I was sickened by how overtly flirty even the most innocuous questions were said to characters like Jacob. It made me hate talking to the characters because I sounded like a desperate divorcee trying to force herself on this poor bloke. No subtlety at all.

[Lightice_av]

The funny thing is that I personally can't see many reasons to exclude same-sex romance:

Neither do I, but seeing that it was left out, there must be a reason. I prefer to be charitable with my opinions at least for now, and the fear of controversy doesn't really sound right either, when Dragon Age got barely a hint of any trouble, and the controversy of ME1 actually boosted the sales.

I can't say I'm a big fan of how they SHOVED heterosexuality in my face in ME2, for both genders.

Really? I've just avoided "Tell me about yourself" topics with the opposite sex during my play as Femshep. I'm not through the game yet, but so far I haven't seen a hint of a flirt. But yes, it might be a good idea to mark the romance topics somehow regardless of orientation in Mass Effect 3. Many people have complained about accidentally entering into romance dialogue in these games. I haven't had that trouble, but I guess it's confusing to many.

[Jimmy Fury]

Lightice_av wrote...
Lets try to take some iniative here: what do you think the reason behind leaving the same-sex content out of Mass Effect 2 was, and what would be the best way to alleviate this for ME3? I personally suspect that marketing was at fault here; Bioware hasn't feared controversy in the past, and has actually benefitted from it. Electronic Arts is a more conservative venture, but they had no issue with similar content in Dragon Age. Hence, it's most likely to assume that the marketing determined that there is no demand for such content.

I would have to agree. Except on EA. EA has never seemed fearful of controversy either. The Sims games all had the potential for epic controversy. Easily editable nudity, same sex relationships, gay adoption, etc. All of which could have been firestorms had anybody taken notice.
Then again, EA is big enough and popular enough that controversy wouldn't make an impact anyway. Even if someone called on a boycott of a game they still have thousands more to make money from. Particularly EAsports.
It is a reasonable idea that perhaps the marketing department (or programmers, whoever was in charge of the decision) just didn't think there would be a market for it.
If that's the case perhaps some simple information could work wonders. Sci-Fi's gay fanbase is increasing constantly. Doctor Who, Torchwood, BSG, Caprica, Whedon-Anything, Star Trek, Lost, Heroes... I could literally spend an hour on this list lol. And those are just the tv shows.
Every one of them has a huge gay fanbase. Buffy is now being shown on
Logo. SyFy has promised to include more gay and lesbian characters in
their shows (after getting a bad report card from GLAAD...). and rumor has it that Fox is working on an American version of Torchwood *with* John Barrowman (given... that sounds like an aweful idea but it's still a nice step)
Comics have begun to make a huge push into the gay market and it's worked very well. DC made headlines, positive ones, for introducing the first ever lesbian title character in the form of Batwoman. Marvel has a long history of having gay characters. Warren Ellis is often considered one of the best comic writers ever, and he has written the most popular gay characters in the entire industry.
Plus, as I said in an earlier post, we're loyal to companies who prove they're inclusive.

Now, how would this assumption be alleviated? This thread is a good start, but it won't go anywhere if people don't do anything but argue with trolls in it. This is a test-run, I would suspect; an attempt by the moderators, and by the extension the dev team to see if there is anything really behind it or not. I would say that more needs to be done than just request threads to maximize the possibility for the pleas to be heard.

Now, does anyone else feel interested in adding or arguing anything I suggested, or an entirely different path to offer?

Perhaps it would be useful to use an annoying MBA term to it's fullest degree. As much as it makes me cringe every time I say something about "courting a market" it's still a pretty accurate verb. Courtship runs two ways though. Chris has stated that the forums welcome the discussion so that's a good sign.
Maybe some of us who frequent gaymer, fanboy, fangirl, and gay-geek-friendly forums and blogs, should bring the subject up on those sites as well. Not in a demanding way, but in a "Hey folks, Bioware might be listening to this request, let's all show our support for it and for the company."

As for implimentation... The DA team is including a lot of fan requests in Awakenings so it's clear Bioware is open to its fans. So I still like the idea of it being included in a transitional expansion released between 2 and 3. A new romance with an existing character would fit into the progress of the story so it wouldn't feel out of place either.

[jselene]

Ryuuichi009 wrote...

"When the mission's complete, it'll be different...it'll take care of itself one of these days, or nights." 
"That sounds wonderful Lieuntenant. In the meantime, we save the galaxy!"

Meer has so much Narm.

Good thing I love Narm.

I don't like when games try to take themselves too seriously its not as fun then.

Wow, you're right.  Narmtacular, but wonderful anyway!  [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/heart.png[/smilie] (And since I always play Paragon, I just know my Shep would end up saying that.  xD )

Also: I usually hate the "shoved in your face" argument, but with Jacob...yeah.  <_<  I'm usually good at spotting romance-triggers, but femShep really comes onto him out of the blue.  I think I'll have to take up avoiding him more often.  Or perhaps play Renegade.

Modifié par jselene, 04 février 2010 - 12:51 .

[Mudzr]

I didn't mind the exlcusion in ME2, since we had so many other choices, but I do hope that it is in ME3, and i'm a straight male, for the sake of choice.

I romance everyone I can in most games, such as DAO and ME2 anyway.

[Lightice_av]

EA has never seemed fearful of controversy either. The Sims games all had the potential for epic controversy. Easily editable nudity, same sex relationships, gay adoption, etc. All of which could have been firestorms had anybody taken notice.

Point. I didn't remember that the Sims was an EA game. Though the Sims is also far more innocuous than Mass Effect and any serious naughtiness has to be added in by pervy gamers. But in the end it just confirms my opinion about "gay controversy" - it barely exists any more, at least as far as video games are concerned.

So I still like the idea of it being included in a transitional expansion released between 2 and 3. A new romance with an existing character would fit into the progress of the story so it wouldn't feel out of place either.

I'm a bit ambivalent about DLC romance. It would have to extremely well written and justified to avoid the stigma of pandering to the base and providing some naughty eyecandy for money. It would also potentially ghettoize the same-sex romance options into something you have to purchase separately, giving them an unpleasant stigma. I wouldn't necessarily complain if it happened, but nor would I instantly applaud. If the same-sex romance dialogue actually already exists in the game files as some have suggested, then a free patch should be the way to go, but that in turn would mean that the company has to officially admit that it cut out this content for undisclosed reasons, which might open yet another can of worms.



As it is, the surest bet is to aim for Mass Effect 3 to get content for all orientations.

[Juztinb42]

The Hero's Journey ends with the main character getting the girl, not the guy.

[newcomplex]

Lightice_av wrote...

Whether its "lesbian" is really debatable, once you factor in the fact that Asari are intended to reproduce in this fashion, and the biochemical triggers in their phermones can a illicit a sexual reaction that otherwise would not be produced by a "normal" female.

The influence of the pheromones is exaggerated. It most definately exists, and being subconscious cue it's difficult to analyze, but if a person has good pheromones, but is otherwise sexually completely unattractive to the individual in question - for example by being the same gender, when the individual in question is straight - then they won't work.This has been tested experimentally, both by scientists and by college students starved for sex; just dousing yourself with strong pheromones won't automatically attract the opposite (or the same) sex to you. There's plenty of other cues you have to fulfill.

Hm...? Being gay doesn't make someone less of a "tough person."

 

There's no point in answering to those posts - intelligent replies do nothing to their posters' sensibilities. Thankfully they have been banned for harrasment and deliberate provocation. Just pretend that they don't exist, and you'll spend your time more wisely.

Correct, their are certainly a lot more factors, but the fact is, women developmentally are more attracted to the male phermone once they hit puberty.    In theory, if a women was surrounded by Asari that produced a phermone that was interpretted as a male phermone, the child would develop into a asari-lesbian, because before puberty, chemical attraction and its relation to behavior are the only indicators of sexuality.    Once after puberty, into sexual maturity, you develop "tastes" which overpower chemicals.   

A straight women with a normal development cycle would not instantly become attracted to a Asari, but in theory, after prolonged exposure, their orientation could change (Your orientation is changing constantly.    For instance, one month you may prefer blonds, another you may prefer red-heads, thats sexual-orientation change). 

In regards to the actual frikkin topic ...uh....I really do not care lol.     But honestly, I play the majority of my games without any sexual interaction between characters, and I'm straight.    Sex and gaming are not intricably connected.    


In other words, you know this?   ?   Well, its also not gay if its an Asari

btw:

I'm gay for Penny Arcade.

Modifié par newcomplex, 04 février 2010 - 01:10 .

[jselene]

Ack, super late response... If Bioware issued a patch--even an unofficial offical patch of sorts, that isn't lumped in with anything but counts towards future games--I would love them forever.  But Ryuuchi's idea of a box set with additional options unlocked seems more plausible.  I'd still be thrilled!  But I wouldn't be quite so thrilled with DLC, because, as Lightice said, it might just feel tacked on.  If ME2 gets an Awakening-esque expansion, though, the inclusion of same-sex romancible squadmates would be great. 

And re: Jacob: Yes.   Definitely choose neutral/renegade responses with him.  Perhaps I misread femShep's prompt, but I'm apparently romancing Jacob now... because what seemed like an innocuous "tell me more" turned into something not intended.  @_@

Modifié par jselene, 04 février 2010 - 01:33 .

[BrianWilly]

It depends on the character, apparently. Jack continued to pressure my ManShep for sex even after I told her, direct quote, "I'm not interested in that." On the other hand, Miranda never once brought up anything to do with romance, since I deliberately avoided the "I can't admire your body?" response.

[FataliTensei]

i guess i'll have to be more careful with jacob's dialouge options

[BrianWilly]

jselene wrote...

Thanks!   Yeah, it is kind of cutely awkward.  If only I knew French!  



^Linkified link.  xD

Ohh, **** this ****.  I knew it.  I knew it!! <_< There was recorded dialogue for a male romance with Thane!  ARGH.  WHY ISN'T IT IN THE GAME.

(For those wondering, he says the exact same thing that the FemShep says at that point in the scene: "Thane, I don't want [you to give] a speech.")

[Madman17]

If they do add gay shepard for ME3 Fox has a field day

Modifié par Madman17, 04 février 2010 - 01:45 .

[jselene]

BrianWilly wrote...

jselene wrote...

Thanks!   Yeah, it is kind of cutely awkward.  If only I knew French!  



^Linkified link.  xD

Ohh, **** this ****.  I knew it.  I knew it!! <_< There was recorded dialogue for a male romance with Thane!  ARGH.  WHY ISN'T IT IN THE GAME.

(For those wondering, he says the exact same thing that the FemShep says at that point in the scene: "Thane, I don't want [you to give] a speech.")

You know...that was exactly my reaction to seeing that video, too.    And thanks for the translation!

[La Sangreal]

Oh... wow. Playing as maleshep to test out the Kaidan romance, and Harkin hit on me. I responded with "uhh... maybe later" all in Meer's voice. I couldn't help but laugh.

[Akrim_Drak]

La Sangreal wrote...

Oh... wow. Playing as maleshep to test out the Kaidan romance, and Harkin hit on me. I responded with "uhh... maybe later" all in Meer's voice. I couldn't help but laugh.

I want that save! As early in the game as you can get it!!!

[La Sangreal]

I'll upload a save, but I'm still testing it to see if everything works. If everything is functional, the saves will be right after Eden Prime, on the Normandy, right before landing on the Citadel.