3059 réponses à ce sujet

[Jimmy Fury]

I guess I should be happy I missed the last 6 pages shouldn't I. hmmm... Game>Trolls anyday.

Anyway Time has a great article on "a brief history of gays in the military" if anyone is interested in reading it. Very insightful and topical to this discussion:

http://www.time.com/...l#ixzz0ehuwzXmx



As for the haters. Let them hate. 1/3 of the provocation thread just doesn't have the quad to say anything over here where logic and reason keep winning out. 1/3 is just raging to rage and has no idea what it's talking about. the last 1/3 are supporters who got caught in the singularity aimed at this thread.

My only hope is that if Bioware does decide to look to the forum for inspiration on this topic, they pay attention to the tones of the two threads and the spirit in which they were started.



Now off to do another mission! I'll return shortly. I'm up until the weeee small hours tonight to wait for the shuttle launch at almostdawn.

[Jimmy Fury]

Ryuuichi009 wrote...
Yeah that dictarship comment confused me. Weren't the the ones who said they used a lot of player feedback for the second game?

Keep in mind that the poster who passed that along to us also stated that it was sort of out of context. Stanley was speaking specifically in reference to the demands for sexual nudity. In that case Stanley's comments are entirely defensible simply for the fact that sexual nudity would get the game slapped with an AO rating and force it off of Xbox where a good portion (majority? dunno the numbers) of their sales come from. In that situation the company has to put it's foot down and enforce its own law.
In terms of reasonable requests Bioware has been good at taking them into consideration. They don't always get used but still.
Since m/m romance wouldn't result in a ratings change it's not an unreasonable desire.

Personally I think the company is more like a democracy. Players vote with their money and hope that the people in charge make decisions that reflect the greater good of the game.


Is it terrible that I wish the guy who started the provocation thread would bring his argument here in a nice calm manner? I have a literal list of counterpoints sitting in my brain just waiting to be used. I won't give him the pleasure of pulling me into his fist-fight though.  hmm...

[Vasja1st]

never stop with this kind of trades!! We want gay option in Mass Effect!!! even my str8 friend, he demands the gay option so even the gay comunity can enjoy at the best this game!!!

[BrianWilly]

The idea that "gays are a minority so the option shouldn't exist" is really incredibly silly when you get down to it.

What percentage of the Mass Effect-playing audience is female?  Let's be generous and say...what...ten percent?  Fifteen?

And of that percentage, how many totally wanted to **** Garrus all up in that sexy carapace?

Uh huh.  Yeah.  Exactly.  I can basically guarantee that the amount of women who wanted a piece of that mandible action is a smaller faction than the entirety of GLBT people who play Mass Effect.

And yet, guess which option is available in the game.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: at some point, design isn't just about pandering to the largest and therefore lowest common denominators.  At some point it becomes about character impact.  Dramatic impetus.  At the end of the day, game developers are artists.  Of course the playerbase matters, but the artistic choice matters more.

EA is aware of that.  Bioware is aware of that.  I just wish there was a way to make the ME team aware of that.

[Pannamaslo]

BrianWilly wrote...

The idea that "gays are a minority so the option shouldn't exist" is really incredibly silly when you get down to it.

What percentage of the Mass Effect-playing audience is female?  Let's be generous and say...what...ten percent?  Fifteen?

And of that percentage, how many totally wanted to **** Garrus all up in that sexy carapace?

Uh huh.  Yeah.  Exactly.  I can basically guarantee that the amount of women who wanted a piece of that mandible action is a smaller faction than the entirety of GLBT people who play Mass Effect.

Do you have proof for this claim or you just made it up on the spot?<_< This is not how you use numbers, so your whole argument is invalid.  And as afr as I know 40% of gamers are females. And I have proof:

Merripen, Clarinda. "Increasing The Bottom Line: Women's Market Share."
Game Developer. 01 Feb 2005. 16. eLibrary. ProQuest LLC. ART INSTITUTE
OF SEATTLE. 11 Nov 2009

Aa far as ME gay  shepard is concerned I have nothing against it, but I would prefer they would do a character that is exclusively homosexual and not swinging both ways. when you know that character is bisexual becasue it's cheaper that way is not fun.  Just my opinion.

Modifié par Pannamaslo, 07 février 2010 - 12:29 .

[mangaminxx]

I RP'd a gay female Shepherd in the first ME (and before anyone asks i'm female myself), romanced Liara and was fairly dissapointed with how that RP can continue into Mass Effect 2, yeh I can hit on Samara in a romance that goes nowhere, yep theres Kelly who isn't really a romance but a stupid little fling or I can have a very "dead" fling with Morinth. There isn't really any real option for any kind of proper gay romance in ME2 regardless of whether from a male or female approach and I personally feel it's a total cop out on Bioware's part. It especially irritates me that dialogue with Tali and Jack can certainly be seen as starting to be romantic then immediately hits a brick wall at a certain point.



Do I think Bioware are homophobic? Not really, do I think they were scared to put proper gay romances in a big testosterone fuelled sci-fi adventure this time round? Definately, and if I was feeling cynical I'd put that down to EA's influence. After the diversity of romance options available in Dragon Age where I did a hetrosexual, lesbian and homosexual run through Mass Effect 2's romance options are totally awful.



I like the game itself for sure, but I certainly feel my opinion of Bioware as a company who pushed boundaries in games like Jade Empire, The Original ME and other titles has taken quite a knock.

[BrianWilly]

Pannamaslo wrote...

Do you have proof for this claim or you just made it up on the spot?[smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/angry.png[/smilie] This is not how you use numbers, so your whole argument is invalid.  And as afr as I know 40% of gamers are females. And I have proof:

Merripen, Clarinda. "Increasing The Bottom Line: Women's Market Share." Game Developer. 01 Feb 2005. 16. eLibrary. ProQuest LLC. ART INSTITUTE OF SEATTLE. 11 Nov 2009

Oh I'm certain 40% of women are gamers when you factor in different consoles like the Wii and DS that have far more mass market appeal and in a lot of cases market specifically to that demographic. But as far as genre gaming, particularly a sci-fi shooter? We have to downsize that 40% by quite a bit. And then we have to even further compartmentalize that fraction itself specifically to one single game, Mass Effect 1.

Of the original 40%, how much would you say remains? Yes, I'm using anecdotal evidence and I wouldn't swear to it in court, but I'm pretty confident in my 10-15% guestimate and it's not exactly a number I pulled out of my ass or something. Be honest, how many women do you know, excluding yourself possibly, played Mass Effect?

I'm not saying it's a good thing and I'm certainly not glorifying it, I'm just saying.

Modifié par BrianWilly, 07 février 2010 - 12:49 .

[Pannamaslo]

BrianWilly wrote...

Oh I'm certain 40% of women are gamers when you factor in different consoles like the Wii and DS that have far more mass market appeal and in a lot of cases market specifically to that demographic. But as far as genre gaming, particularly a sci-fi shooter? We have to downsize that 40% by quite a bit. And then we have to even further compartmentalize that fraction itself specifically to one single game, Mass Effect 1. Of the original 40%, how much would you say remains? Yes, I wouldn't swear to it in court, but I'm pretty confident in my 10-15% guestimate. Be honest, how many women do you know, excluding yourself possibly, played Mass Effect?

I'm not saying it's a bad thing and I'm certainly not glorifying it, I'm just saying.

It's not how you feel is right. It's not eyeballing. Either you have data to support your claim or you don't. simple. That how is science and market research done. And I know at least two female friends who play it, but it does mean I will go make up statistics. What you just did even has a name: hasty generalisation, common logic fallacy.  So sorry. No evidence, no support, no valid argument. 

Apparently Bioware has data that suggested there is a female fanbase, hence Thane and Garrus. 

[BrandNewMan]

This was the explanation for the lack of a m/m romance in ME1. Posted back in 2007:

Patrick Weekes wrote...

Holding up the "technically, the asari are asexual" flag is fine, and
technically true, but really, she's got cleavage, so in my mind, she's
a woman.

There
is indeed no male/male or male/male-alien romance. There was brief
consideration of an option for one earlier on, and when resource
constraints came down, the decision was made to cut resources from the
least-popular romantic option, which was that one -- it was the option
that was a) hardest for the existing writing team to write and most
difficult to integrate into the game world without breaking suspension
of disbelief.

The writers looked at the option to either defend
the romance by cobbling together a low-resource version of it, or cut
it altogether. They chose to cut it altogether rather than put out a
lousy version.

It is a double standard, but that double standard was the least-bad option available at the time.

[BrianWilly]

Pannamaslo wrote...

It's not how you feel is right. It's not eyeballing. Either you have data to support your claim or you don't. simple. That how is science and market research done. And I know at least two female friends who play it, but it does mean I will go make up statistics. What you just did even has a name: hasty generalisation, common logic fallacy.  So sorry. No evidence, no support, no valid argument. 

Apparently Bioware has data that suggested there is a female fanbase, hence Thane and Garrus. 

Going by your own logic...technically, you don't know that they have any data at all.  You have no evidence of that.

And if we're going to be even more technical: I can make perfectly valid arguments from nothing more than simple theories, so long as they are supported rationally.  Anecdotal evidence is still a rational argument.  It's the basis from which all science is derived, in fact.

You're welcome to debate and refute my argument, in ways other than "you're just wrong, period, the end." :happy:

[BrianWilly]

BrandNewMan wrote...

This was the explanation for the lack of a m/m romance in ME1. Posted back in 2007:

And I don't have any problems with that explanation.  I...question it in hindsight, because it sure seemed like random modders on the internet could integrate a m/m romance seamlessly into the game with nothing more than soundfiles at their disposal, but I can believe that, at the time, this is what the devs thought.  And I understand it.

But when it came time for ME2 romances to be developed and expanded (and boy did they develop those romances) there was still no time to implement gay romances?  They had the time and resources to make six new romances, including several interspecies, yet couldn't find the time to make a single homosexual one?  And not only wasn't there a m/m option, but they actually backtracked and withheld from the pre-existing f/f fanbase?  I call bunk.  It feel almost comically exclusionary, and exclusionary specifically towards the gay fanbase.

Modifié par BrianWilly, 07 février 2010 - 01:15 .

[Pannamaslo]

BrianWilly wrote...

Pannamaslo wrote...

It's not how you feel is right. It's not eyeballing. Either you have data to support your claim or you don't. simple. That how is science and market research done. And I know at least two female friends who play it, but it does mean I will go make up statistics. What you just did even has a name: hasty generalisation, common logic fallacy.  So sorry. No evidence, no support, no valid argument. 

Apparently Bioware has data that suggested there is a female fanbase, hence Thane and Garrus. 

Going by your own logic...technically, you don't know that they have any data at all.  You have no evidence of that.

And if we're going to be even more technical: I can make perfectly valid arguments from nothing more than simple theories, so long as they are supported rationally.  Anecdotal evidence is still a rational argument.  It's the basis from which all science is derived, in fact.

You're welcome to debate and refute my argument, in ways other than "you're just wrong, period, the end." :happy:

True I don't know if they have any data, but Drell race is a female fanservice, so they acknowledge females existence. Also something must happenned that gay option was excluded from ME2. Whether this is due to rescources constraints, censorhip  or  something else we don't know. The fact is: Straight females have their fanservice, LGBT community don't. So my resoning is female fanbase is big enough for Bioware to include the same number of options for them (they even included Garrus *_*).  But all this is just speculation and so is your post, so we don't really know anything for sure. I personally belive that if LGBT ME fanbase was big enough, they would inlude romance for them. But that's just my opinion, I don't know this for sure.

I don't mind gay content unless it's poorly made and incorporated into character that does not belong to. As I said I would not like making some chatacter bi just because it's cheaper.

Modifié par Pannamaslo, 07 février 2010 - 01:21 .

[Zack Ross]

Hey there everyone, I wanted to bring this topic back to page 1, since I know some of you really want a gay romance option for Shepard. However judging from this IGN interview on Mass Effect 2 it looks like they have zero intention to let you do it. Read for yourself but this seems to be the death toll for this particular issue. xbox360.ign.com/articles/106/1066954p2.html

Modifié par Zack Ross, 07 février 2010 - 02:36 .

[Arik7]

Zack Ross wrote...

Hey there everyone, I wanted to bring this topic back to page 1, since I know some of you really want a gay romance option for Shepard. However judging from this IGN interview on Mass Effect 2 it looks like they have zero intention to let you do it. Read for yourself but this seems to be the death toll for this particular issue. xbox360.ign.com/articles/106/1066954p2.html

What a lame excuse!  Male Shepard doesn't have a fixed  morality, appearance,race, religion, background.  Yet, he is a fixed character?  Only when it comes to sexuality it seems.  The female Shepard doesn't quite have that problem.   Anyway, I'm glad I did not buy ME2.

[Akrim_Drak]

Zack Ross wrote...

Hey there everyone, I wanted to bring this topic back to page 1, since I know some of you really want a gay romance option for Shepard. However judging from this IGN interview on Mass Effect 2 it looks like they have zero intention to let you do it. Read for yourself but this seems to be the death toll for this particular issue. xbox360.ign.com/articles/106/1066954p2.html

Yeah... I saw that too and I think it's complete idiocy. You can decide just about everything about Shepard EXCEPT his sexuality? All I can say is BioWare lost a sale of ME3 from me! I'll buy it used or borrow it...

"IGN: Will there be gay relationships for the male Shepard? Here at IGN
we've heard a lot of positive feedback from the inclusion of gay
relationships in Dragon Age; compare that with the somewhat conspicuous
absence of them from the first Mass Effect, especially with the chance
for a lesbian relationship."

"Ray Muzyka: Here's how the games
are different: Dragon Age is a first person narrative, where you're
taking on an origin and a role, and you are that character at a
fundamental level. It's fundamentally about defining your character,
including those kinds of concepts. In Mass Effect it's more a third
person narrative, where you have a pre-defined character who is who he
is, or she is. But it's not a wide-open choice matrix. It's more choice
on a tactical level with a pre-defined character. So they're different
types of narratives, and that's intentional.

We're not saying
that one approach is better than the other. In our previous games, as
we did in Jade Empire, as we did in KOTOR, as we did in Baldur's Gate,
and many games before and in the future, we enable those kinds of
choices, whereas in Mass Effect it's more about Shepard as a defined
character with certain approaches and worldviews, and that's just who
he or she is. So we constrain the choice set somewhat, but enable more
tactical choices and enable a deeper, richer personality, because it's
more focused around defining one character, it's not as wide open. But
that's by choice.

It's first person versus third person
narrative, and the types of choices you get to make within that are
related to that, whether you've got a pre-defined character or a
wide-open character. Some of our games have been wide open, and some
have been more constrained, and we'll probably continue both kinds of
character development in the future."

[Images]

Arik7 wrote...

Zack Ross wrote...

Hey there everyone, I wanted to bring this topic back to page 1, since I know some of you really want a gay romance option for Shepard. However judging from this IGN interview on Mass Effect 2 it looks like they have zero intention to let you do it. Read for yourself but this seems to be the death toll for this particular issue. xbox360.ign.com/articles/106/1066954p2.html

What a lame excuse!  Male Shepard doesn't have a fixed  morality, appearance,race, religion, background.  Yet, he is a fixed character?  Only when it comes to sexuality it seems.  The female Shepard doesn't quite have that problem.   Anyway, I'm glad I did not buy ME2.

Yeah thats pretty lame.

I still bought and love the game. I just think they're backing off the gay thing to keep a macho sci fi shooter image to sell ME on. They feel they can get away with differing sexualities in Dragon Age since it wasn't aimed at the same kind of market. Yeah its an RPG by bioware too but a completely different type. And D&D type stuff was always slightly camp. So they're just running for the hills on this one.

Silly really.

Modifié par Images, 07 février 2010 - 02:57 .

[Endurance_117]

See this is what I am talking about, you won't buy a game because the inclusion of one thing? If I couldn't make Shepard black I would still buy the game.

Modifié par Endurance_117, 07 février 2010 - 03:26 .

[Madame November]

Arik7 wrote...

LoveAsThouWilt wrote...

Quick forum question: Am I the only male currently in the room? Is the rest of the room women who like manly men together, or are there any like minded men in the group as well? If so say "here!"

Another male "here"

I am a female, married<3, and in my twenties and I'd like to see all romance options open. It would be especially nice to have an option to have the entire crew mass married. I'm all about the love.



(people who are afraid of even having the "option" to be gay are serious need of love therapy *hug*)

[BrandNewMan]

For you maleshep and Kaidan fans out there: http://i48.tinypic.com/210fzav.png

Modifié par BrandNewMan, 07 février 2010 - 03:26 .

[Akrim_Drak]

Endurance_117 wrote...

See this is what I am talking about, you won't buy a game because the inclusion of one thing? If I couldn't make Shepard black I would still buy the game.

No the reason I won't "buy" it. (I'll buy it third party, I still love the atmosphere but I don't feel BioWare deserves my money) is because that's a stupid copout. You can make Shepard any ethnicity, you can choose where he came from, how he joined the military, whether "he" is even a man or not, and HUNDREDS of other things... but the "set character" aspect makes him straight? Really, I'm not dumb, it has nothing to do with "it's not in his character" they PLANNED it for the first game, so clearly it was in his character. I'm not buying it because it's not "your Shepard" as they so love to advertise. It's THEIR Shepard. I'll still play the game. I just won't be paying BioWare for it. I'll pay GameStop. That is my CHOICE.

Edit: oh my at above poster  Too bad I'm sorta too upset to care right now.

Modifié par Akrim_Drak, 07 février 2010 - 03:31 .

[Homebound]

I just hope if Bioware ever does decide to let people play as a gay Shepard, it would be for the right reasons.
Whats the point of having the "gay Shepard" option if its ill-constructed, out of place, and under-developed right?
I wonder if Shepard as the character he is now has that wiggle room for that option. Would making Shepard gay be out-of-character?
Anyways those are my thoughts on the matter. I am not for or against this option.

Modifié par Just_mike, 07 février 2010 - 03:33 .