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[tyddrwsau]

I'm joining this thread to voice my complete support for including same-sex romance options in Mass Effect. I shan't be dissuaded by the recently linked interview with Ray Muzyka: there's room for him and for the rest of the creative team to change that stance, which read more like a dodge anyway.



I'm unsurprised at the presence of hostility and interpersonal sniping in the pages of this thread, but glad to see the sensible discussion nestled within it. Hopefully I will add to the sensible part of the discussion.



I have been playing "tabletop" roleplaying games for a long time - my copy of the original _Dungeons & Dragons_ (bought new) is a well worn trophy, and I've racked up a lot of play time and a few author credits in different systems over the years. In that time I have told the stories of characters who are male, female, straight, gay and all over a fictional spectrum up to and including asexual space amoebas. I have no trouble playing a character who's any of those things, so playing a straight Commander Shepard is not a deal-breaker for me. I like to have options, nonetheless.



I've been playing video games since before computers had hard drives. I have had countless hours of fun with them throughout (that's why I still play!), but I have been delighted as games have evolved to provide more dynamic character determination, branching effects on story through player choice, and open worlds. BioWare has been one of the few game studios I'd identify at the crest of that wave. Because they've established a trend wherein "tastefully done character romances are a staple of BioWare games" they have invited the debate represented in this thread. That same-sex romantic opportunities have been available in some of their other titles invites it further.



In Mass Effect, the overarching "save the Universe" story is a constant. Within that story, we're given the option of making many choices - choices that BioWare has done a great job of folding into the story progression.



While the "save the Universe" plot drives the game and provides a reason why Shepard is out doing what s/he does, and situational moral or behavioural choices explain how s/he does it, the relationships developed with Shepard's team and how they collectively respond to their circumstances is a big part of what makes the story into one with which we can engage emotionally. Shepard's relationship with the team is important - even Shepard's relationship with the generic crew of the Normandy plays a role (ME1 Anderson: "They're your crew, Shepard, they'd do anything for you.") This is expressed through the (generally excellent) writing of these characters' narratives, and in ME2 it's also expressed through the "loyalty mission" mechanic. In ME2 this is further driven home by the different reunions with the cast of ME1 - most are quite poignant. The romances available present options for even deeper connections to members of the squad, and perhaps the only setting where Shepard gets to be her/his private self.



I am unaware of any situation in the game where Shepard behaves differently because of who Shepard romances. In each quest, with various people, Shepard is just Shepard (paragon? renegade? mix?). This is the perfect rebuttal to those who have said "It would ruin the character if he suddenly turned gay!" in this thread. Shepard is the same person generally regardless of her/his romantic choices - but we get to imagine a character who is given a lot more depth and subtext by the ability to make those choices. A gay/bi male Shepard can wipe out a Geth strike force before dinner. A lesbian/bi Shepard is still an iconic galactic heroine.



It is in no way surprising that F/F romances were an easier inclusion in the game. Lesbians are seen as less threatening by more of the populace, in part because women are considered less threatening and in part because a subset of men find F/F intimacy titillating. While I accept the Mass Effect lore that says Asari aren't really women, they are designed around a visual and behavioral baseline that we players recognize as feminine. Would people react to Liara the same if she had the same character model, same dialogue options, but was voiced by James Earl Jones?



If we're going to fall back on the idea that "It isn't lesbian if it's with an Asari!" we should really look at the whole interspecies romance issue through that lens. This isn't the Star Trek universe where almost all sapient life forms are biologically compatible humanoid mammals. Each of the Mass Effect races has diverse biology, anatomy, physiology. Their cultures surely have distinct assumptions of what constitutes masculine or feminine behaviour and appearance. Individuals of each race will have their own preferences for what makes an individual "their type" - are ladies with shapely dewlaps the finest, or perhaps gents with a symmetrical frill upon their heads? (Dr. Solus tells us that his skin tone is considered sexy by Turians.) The question of "gay or straight" doesn't seem to make sense for a character prepared to transcend species attraction, radically different anatomy and their accustomed cultural bias to pursue a relationship with someone of another species. That of course assumes that the characters interact with their environment as if it were all there is. We know that they are fictional characters, their funky alien biology is "fluff text" for us, and we still identify them through our own cultural lens as men and women with our assumptions about what that means. The sad truth is that many people are still far more grossed out by the idea of two men falling in love than by the concept of getting it on with a giant talking iguana, a terminally ill frog-man, or a three-toed creature with back-bent knees, an immune deficiency and whose protein biology is mutually toxic with humans.



I think the alien relationships should ignore sex and gender (whatever that may originally mean to the species in question). I think same-sex human relationships shouldn't be taboo.



In Western, especially American, media it is deplorable that when gay people aren't completely ignored they are almost always cast as either (1) campy asexual comic relief (2) tragic characters destined for a bad end. Because the Science Fiction genre has a long history of using imagined futures to comment on current cultural issues, it's not surprising that most of the few examples that break this pattern come from SciFi. Star Trek had several characters who challenged assumptions of sexuality, directly or through allegory (and the original Star Trek cast contained several gay icons who played Sulu, Uhura and Chekov). Babylon 5 had a lesbian character 2nd in command, and two male characters who went undercover as a couple going to Mars for their honeymoon. The recent Battlestar Galactica remake's Commander Gaeta was bisexual; the new Caprica spinoff has two married men as Tauron mobsters. That's without even looking at the wholly alien sexual polymorphism explored in SciFi novels as the ultimate deconstruction of our gender assumptions. There are many more examples in this genre than any others of progressive depictions of sexual minorities as Normal People. Mass Effect could do very well by doing so, too.



When I played Dragon Age, I was made nervous by the fear that Zevran (the same-sex male romance option) would be another cliched "anything-that-moves" oversexed bisexual, but I went "straight" for that option on my first playthrough. Boy am I glad that I did. His character backstory made his casual sexuality reasonable in context - growing up in a brothel, trained to use physical allure as a weapon, he didn't have many boundaries where sex was concerned. When I hit a certain point in his romance, and he declined conjugal relations because things were getting too emotionally intense for him and he wasn't sure how to handle it... I was won over. I don't think Mass Effect needs a Zevran. It could only be enriched if a certain biotic who really needs to relax (!) were bi, or by the presence of another man perfectly comfortable in his masculinity who could find his way into John (etc.) Shepard's heart.

[Arik7]

mangaminxx wrote...
I used to consider Bioware a company that pushed the boundries and did it's best to cater to a wide-scope of players. Jade Empire for example was really great with it's romance options and plotlines both hetrosexual and homosexual, and recently Dragon Age too did things very well. However, with quite frankly BS and offensive comments from members of the team and the lack of ANY decent homosexual romances in ME2 (ME1's romance with Liara was definately a lesbian one, no amount of codex crap will change that especially with the way characters like Kaiden talk about your sexuality once you say you have a thing for Liara) it's clear Bioware are going to play it safe and appeal to the stereotypical pea-brained male shooter market rather than have any depth for those of us who wish to play the game our way. 

I'm sure Bioware don't really care about our opinions otherwise they wouldn't have staff members putting forth such responses, but I am having serious doubts about purchasing future games from what was once my favourite game developer, not because of the lack of inclusion of same-sex romances but because of the disgraceful way they are responding to those of us who want the variety they once put in their titles.

THIS

[mangaminxx]

tyddrwsau wrote...

I'm joining this thread to voice my complete support for including same-sex romance options in Mass Effect. I shan't be dissuaded by the recently linked interview with Ray Muzyka: there's room for him and for the rest of the creative team to change that stance, which read more like a dodge anyway.

.

Didn't want to duplicate a huge wall of text b quoting your entire post but that was a very interesting and thoughtful reply, thanks for the read.

[LoveAsThouWilt]

Lightice_av wrote...

Torchwood-I am sorry but both the series and its character are annoying to me and seem pretentious.

Try Doctor Who. Does better job with Jack's character in my opinion, or just the second season of Torchwood - the first one was just stupid.

As to Caprica-didn't see it, turned off by Galactica remake which to me seemed like an soap opera rather then SF.

If only more soap operas had awesome space battles...Caprica is even more a soap opera, but also seems to be going into the less well trod direction of social science fiction, observing changes in technological development from a social perspective. Does very good job at handling religion, too, so far.

no amount of codex crap will change that

The Codex calls the asari an all-female species. It agrees with you even when Casey Hudson doesn't.

Serenity or whatever it was called was a great show that ended too quickly. ( it think Serenity is the name of the movie ENDING the series).

[LoveAsThouWilt]

tyddrwsau wrote...

 It could only be enriched if a certain biotic who really needs to relax (!) were bi, or by the presence of another man perfectly comfortable in his masculinity who could find his way into John (etc.) Shepard's heart.

THIS! Shepard needs his man Kaiden!!!

[CHT87]

Hmm...I do not understand, why you are all so hatefull when it comes to this topic.
BW has no fear of making gay romances - see DAO or JE for that.

But they do not HAVE to insert it into their games if they do not want to in my opinion.

I also see no offense in the things Ray (was it him? ^^) said about this. But Caseys statement, that ME1 had no f/f romance option was really...ehm..."misinformed" (in lack of a better word for "dumb" )

ME and ME2 are great games and my main shepard (the one I can relate to the most) did not have a romance in 1 or 2 (even if he/me REALLY loved Tali...I did not want to make her sick or regret it, when I am not coming back with her to the flotilla - thinking ahead).

In the end - if BW decides to make a gay romance possible I would be totally fine with it. I will still play my character like I want him to. If I do not "love" a romancable character I will not engage him in that manner.

Modifié par CHT87, 07 février 2010 - 08:12 .

[Lightice_av]

Serenity or whatever it was called was a great show that ended too quickly. ( it think Serenity is the name of the movie ENDING the series).

Firefly. Had never a chance to see it, myself, though.

Great post by the way, tyddrwsau, although I fear that most people here won't bother to read it through. An in-depth summary about all the issues that the same-sex community has brought up. I hope that you saved some for later, though.

But they do not HAVE to insert it into their games if they do not want to in my opinion.

I wouldn't call the thread community hateful. Some are simply dissapointed after both getting inane flak from their fellow forumites, and empty non-answers from the devs. When a company sets high standards, it's expected to keep up with them, and when they cater to one "non-standard" option and then some (I'm looking at you, Thane and Garrus), then it's quite bizzare that they still can't find it in themselves to go all the way.

I didn't expect to stay here for so long defending this issue. It's not really my fight. But I think it's worthwhile enough, and its opposition unpleasant enough to warrant some dedication.

Modifié par Lightice_av, 07 février 2010 - 08:16 .

[sw33ts]

If we're going to fall back on the idea that "It isn't lesbian if it's with an Asari!" we should really look at the whole interspecies romance issue through that lens. This isn't the Star Trek universe where almost all sapient life forms are biologically compatible humanoid mammals. Each of the Mass Effect races has diverse biology, anatomy, physiology. Their cultures surely have distinct assumptions of what constitutes masculine or feminine behaviour and appearance. Individuals of each race will have their own preferences for what makes an individual "their type" - are ladies with shapely dewlaps the finest, or perhaps gents with a symmetrical frill upon their heads? (Dr. Solus tells us that his skin tone is considered sexy by Turians.) The question of "gay or straight" doesn't seem to make sense for a character prepared to transcend species attraction, radically different anatomy and their accustomed cultural bias to pursue a relationship with someone of another species. That of course assumes that the characters interact with their environment as if it were all there is. We know that they are fictional characters, their funky alien biology is "fluff text" for us, and we still identify them through our own cultural lens as men and women with our assumptions about what that means. The sad truth is that many people are still far more grossed out by the idea of two men falling in love than by the concept of getting it on with a giant talking iguana, a terminally ill frog-man, or a three-toed creature with back-bent knees, an immune deficiency and whose protein biology is mutually toxic with humans.

Thank you.

[illerianna]

Everyone loves Kaiden.



EVERYONE.



At any rate, if they DO include a gay option, as has been stated before, please make it in-depth and not generic-guy thrown in "just because".



If male Sheps can romance Kaiden, I might actually play one. >:3

[sw33ts]

I didn't love Kaidan.  I do love Tali though.  <3

[LoveAsThouWilt]

tyddrwsau:



I apologize quickly for not reading the whole post through right away, and now that I did I suggest your post be published and sent to the faces of Bioware and Mass Effect devs in BOLD simply because how well you illustrated the point through facts and more.



*bows* Thanks to you.

[Zanallen]

Since Bioware locked the other thread, I would like to once again offer the suggestion of having a gay Krogan LI in ME3.

[LoveAsThouWilt]

Zanallen wrote...

Since Bioware locked the other thread, I would like to once again offer the suggestion of having a gay Krogan LI in ME3.

It would be painfull, but I wouldn't mind it either! Proably wouldn't choose it though! (lmao the Asari and Krogan couple in ME2 lol Krogan spouting poetry ha ha!)

Modifié par LoveAsThouWilt, 07 février 2010 - 08:31 .

[DoctorOctagonapus]

I wonder if it would be worth the resources or the reaction from their less...accepting audience to put in a gay option. Remember, ME isn't a dating sim, it's an action-RPG. The romance sub-plots are sideshows, and it's unfair to demand a sideshow for every minority. Whether it's good business to deny that option however, is up to debate...

[Sporothrix]

DoctorOctagonapus wrote...

I wonder if it would be worth the resources or the reaction from their less...accepting audience to put in a gay option. Remember, ME isn't a dating sim, it's an action-RPG. The romance sub-plots are sideshows, and it's unfair to demand a sideshow for every minority. Whether it's good business to deny that option however, is up to debate...

Most straight men I know like to play gals, and prefer f/f options if they are given. Similarly most straight women really like gay men theme. And I don't think some homophobe won't buy game just because there's optional gay romance in it.

[Lightice_av]

I wonder if it would be worth the resources or the reaction from their less...accepting audience to put in a gay option.

Despite of how loud noise they make, the hater crowd is a definite minority in themselves. Most people almost certainly don't give damn, and among the straight fans there are plenty of people who prefer to play the opposite sex, myself included (an issue with the voice actors, in my case).



It really doesn't take significant amount of resources - take an existing romance-option, copy-paste most of the dialogue. Change or add a few lines, and you're done. The romance subplot is a small but significant part of the gaming experience that increases the chances of role playing and gives depth to the character.

[SethSteiner]

BioWares roleplaying games have romance since more than a decade, so it`s neither a minor factor, nor it`s a minority who criticize, because also hetereosexuals complain. Also resources are already invented, you can hear the audio files. I can`t see how the demand of an equal treatmend could be unfair. I just want to have the same options I had in the first game and I want improvement. That is something that is demanded in all medias and other industries. How could the demand of progress be unfair?

Modifié par SethSteiner, 07 février 2010 - 08:50 .

[BrookMorrison]

My thread got locked, but here you go...



IGN: Will there be gay relationships for the male Shepard? Here at IGN we've heard a lot of positive feedback from the inclusion of gay relationships in Dragon Age; compare that with the somewhat conspicuous absence of them from the first Mass Effect, especially with the chance for a lesbian relationship.



Ray Muzyka: Here's how the games are different: Dragon Age is a first person narrative, where you're taking on an origin and a role, and you are that character at a fundamental level. It's fundamentally about defining your character, including those kinds of concepts. In Mass Effect it's more a third person narrative, where you have a pre-defined character who is who he is, or she is. But it's not a wide-open choice matrix. It's more choice on a tactical level with a pre-defined character. So they're different types of narratives, and that's intentional.

[LoveAsThouWilt]

It is quite strange- women like seeing men together and men like seeing women together.



Not in all cases for SURE, but, hell i have a female friend who watches gay men porn! It is quite odd.



ME will doubtfully ever get the MM option, hence, why as i've played I made what in my opinion appears to be the "canon-Shepards" decisions. Romancing Liara because she is the sensitive non-racist person (unlike Ashley the xenophobe) and romancing Tali because of her and Shepards past.

[LoveAsThouWilt]

BrookMorrison wrote...

My thread got locked, but here you go...

IGN: Will there be gay relationships for the male Shepard? Here at IGN we've heard a lot of positive feedback from the inclusion of gay relationships in Dragon Age; compare that with the somewhat conspicuous absence of them from the first Mass Effect, especially with the chance for a lesbian relationship.

Ray Muzyka: Here's how the games are different: Dragon Age is a first person narrative, where you're taking on an origin and a role, and you are that character at a fundamental level. It's fundamentally about defining your character, including those kinds of concepts. In Mass Effect it's more a third person narrative, where you have a pre-defined character who is who he is, or she is. But it's not a wide-open choice matrix. It's more choice on a tactical level with a pre-defined character. So they're different types of narratives, and that's intentional.

I beat you to that.

[SethSteiner]

We had that before BrookMorrison

[Ryzaki]

Oh so there's definitely not going to be any MM options?



Well that's a shame.

[Brahlis]

Jackal904 wrote...

NO. Shepard is not a fruit.

I lol'd.