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[Creature 1]

Kordaris wrote...

I wouldn't mind removing romance altogether from Mass Effect, and focusing more on real character development.
And your statement actually involves a nasty binary stereotype of two different positions either homosexual or heterosexual.

I assure you that for transgender people, be it a crossdresser or transsexual their sexual orientation is not "only a kink" but forms their identity as well.

I never said it was just a kink.  I used the word which you used only to say that homosexuality is not a kink.  To me a kink is something like a shoe fetish.  Gender identity is not a kink.  

Putting in a transgender or transsexual option isn't as clearly necessary.  Someone who's playing a transsexual can play as the gender their character identifies with.  Someone playing a transgendered character can play as the sex their character is phenotypically but play as their chosen gender.  To me gender identity and sexual orientation are related but different aspects of identity.  Gender identity is something personal (it's about who you are), but sexual orientation is relational (about who you are attracted to), thus the reason for including potential partners of each sex. 

[Sporothrix]

Kordaris wrote...

Since it is a only your assumption not backed by any real polling, we all can state something else using our own assumptions.

I have nothing to prove - a fact that those kind of topics started to be main "issue" after release of ME2 says for itself.
And a fact we all know which companions fans get their LI's because of constant whining says for itself too.

And I repeat-see no reason to include gay Shepard-breaks the story and character vision.

And why should anyone care for your character vision?
If Bioware won't include gay option for male Shep, they'll be seen as hypocrits (cause they gave that option for women - and if they'll took that away as an answer, it will be even worse for them). Of course if they changed their target for adolescent boys, that won't be so bad for them, but serious, mature gamers will get their money somewhere else.

[LoveAsThouWilt]

axdorffe wrote...

dont any of you guys think that only a percent of people want to have the option for shepard to be gay? ya there is the whole f/f thing but that was really carried over from the first game. bioware doesnt want to lose customers. but you guys also have to look at the general public too who play this game. lots of teen males to young adults who like action adventure... and hate to break it to you guys but hey most of the nation doesnt really like or approve of gay relationships, not trying to offend anyone but it is what it is. shepard is suppose to be the hero of the galaxy. and obviously certain themes are being taken from other literature and novels.. movies etc... and i personally believe a huge reason for even the f/f thing is well alot of teen to young adult males haha go figure. but there ya go. in most parts of the world and nation....m/m isnt accepted or looked well upon.... bioware wants to sell this to the public and stay true to their inspirations from where they go the story from.. for the most part at least.

\\

Still just makes me go backt o them having wrote it in, acted it out, voiced it and removed it from the game (Shepard and Kaiden). which is utterly ridiculous.

Looks my Shepard is going to have to settle for being celibate.

[Sporothrix]

Kordaris wrote...

I assure you that for transgender people, be it a crossdresser or transsexual their sexual orientation is not "only a kink" but forms their identity as well.

What gender identity has to do with sexual orientation? You try to look eloquent, but you're making obvious mistakes. I repeat - at least for transsexuals, being transsexual is not a part of identity. We feel that we are just women or men. Being transsexual means we feels we are imprisoned in wrong bodies. There's nothing good with that, and that's why many ts after surgery, if they look good enough, try to burn bridges to their past.
There's nothing I want more than being reborn as pure female, and lesbian as well, because it's major part of my identity.
Being lesbian or gay is something completely different, because it's founded on who you can love, and what's more positive than love?

Modifié par misoretu9, 08 février 2010 - 03:23 .

[Deviija]

Kordaris wrote...

How is it a double standard ?

The definition of Double Standard: n.  A set of principles permitting greater opportunity or liberty to one than to another, especially the granting of greater sexual freedom to men than to women. 

In response to IGN asking about Gay Shepard, Ray Muzyka built an explanation around how Shepard was a predefined and constrained character, more so than in other BioWare titles, due to the narrative of the story.  However, if Shepard was such a constrained character, then why is Kelly an option for Female Shepards to romance/have a fling with?  This allows for FemShep to be a bisexual/lesbian Shepard in ME2, thus making it 'within character' for Shepard to be something other than heterosexual.  

To say it is acceptable to be a lesbian/bisexual Shepard, but not gay/bisexual is the double-standard in light of Ray's 'importance and limits of a constrained character' principle.  Because it is permitting greater opportunity and liberty to one group over another. 

Did that answer your question?

Modifié par Deviija, 08 février 2010 - 03:27 .

[FataliTensei]

Deviija wrote...

Kordaris wrote...

How is it a double standard ?

The definition of Double Standard: n.  A set of principles permitting greater opportunity or liberty to one than to another, especially the granting of greater sexual freedom to men than to women. 

In response to IGN asking about Gay Shepard, Ray Muzyka built an explanation around how Shepard was a predefined and constrained character, more so than in other BioWare titles, due to the narrative of the story.  However, if Shepard was such a constrained character, then why is Kelly an option for Female Shepards to romance/have a fling with?  This allows for FemShep to be a bisexual/lesbian Shepard in ME2, thus making it 'within character' for Shepard to be something other than heterosexual.  

To say it is acceptable to be a lesbian/bisexual Shepard, but not gay/bisexual is the double-standard in light of Ray's 'importance and limits of a constrained character' principle.  Because it is permitting greater opportunity and liberty to one group over another. 

Did that explain your question?

It's a obvious double standard seen all the time in our media >_<

"Pretty" Lesbians are ok, unattractive lesbians and gay males aren't

[axdorffe]

well shepard has three origin stories, if you want to believe that somewhere along the line he/she got a sex change, i guess thats open to the player. but to love as thou wilt.. ya they prolly realized hey wait alot of the people who play this game are young adolescent males. they like action sex and anything epic haha, they might lose game immersion if they found out that so and so is gay....... would also like to point out the dont ask dont tell rule in the united states military.. basically it would break alot of immersion for most people if some male npc was gay. for some reason i think most people would be less inclined to continue playing if they found out that will from will and grace was your subordinate commander.. once again not trying to offend anyone but it is what it is and as bioware stated earlier mass effect isnt about a completely imagined character. mass effect is about shepard, a preimagined deigned character with leniency in what decisions you would have him do. not a character you make deciding all aspects of his life. he is more or less like the james t. kirk of mass effect. james t. kirk may be into alot of things, females for sure haha, but he isnt in to spock.

[Creature 1]

axdorffe wrote...
would also like to point out the dont ask dont tell rule in the united states military.. basically it would break alot of immersion for most people if some male npc was gay.

Many nations manage fine with gays in the military being out, and the US military will soon dismantle "don't ask, don't tell". 

for some reason i think most people would be less inclined to continue playing if they found out that will from will and grace was your subordinate commander..

Gah, stereotypes abound.  Shepherd's sexual orientation has no affect on his masculinity or leadership ability.  If it were that easy to tell, there would be no need for "don't ask, don't tell", because everyone would know. 

he is more or less like the james t. kirk of mass effect. james t. kirk may be into alot of things, females for sure haha, but he isnt in to spock.

I guess you aren't aware of the masses of Kirk/Spock slash out there on the web. 

[axdorffe]

to fatali, ya it may be but this game is targeted for most people, not all people. f/f things are seen as attractive by alot of men and how the media portrays it. this game is played by a majority of these type of people. it is defacto that this is the way it is. mass effect wasnt made as a statement to cultural issues or morality issues for that matter. though morality does play a huuuuuuuuuge part in this game, there is certain predefined limitations such as shepard could be a renegade but he isnt a hitler. or he could be a paragon but isnt a martin luther king. hes a commander in the alliance military, more or less a navy seal (N7). I dont think I Can remember the last time a navy seal or any special ops member was openly gay. as for women special ops. some have been in GROM ( polish special ops) so its still believable.

[Creature 1]

axdorffe wrote...
I dont think I Can remember the last time a navy seal or any special ops member was openly gay.

Considering they currently get discharged if they're outed, there could be a reason for that.  *headdesk* 

[Sporothrix]

Deviija wrote...

Kordaris wrote...

How is it a double standard ?

The definition of Double Standard: n.  A set of principles permitting greater opportunity or liberty to one than to another, especially the granting of greater sexual freedom to men than to women. 

In response to IGN asking about Gay Shepard, Ray Muzyka built an explanation around how Shepard was a predefined and constrained character, more so than in other BioWare titles, due to the narrative of the story.  However, if Shepard was such a constrained character, then why is Kelly an option for Female Shepards to romance/have a fling with?  This allows for FemShep to be a bisexual/lesbian Shepard in ME2, thus making it 'within character' for Shepard to be something other than heterosexual.  

To say it is acceptable to be a lesbian/bisexual Shepard, but not gay/bisexual is the double-standard in light of Ray's 'importance and limits of a constrained character' principle.  Because it is permitting greater opportunity and liberty to one group over another. 

Did that answer your question?

And I might add, he pointed as example of games where player had such "choices of freedom" Baldurs Gate and KOTOR, in which men actually can't have same-sex romance (in BG women as well), even with so "unpredefined character", so that's not only double standard, that's lack of logical reasoning.

Modifié par misoretu9, 08 février 2010 - 03:39 .

[axdorffe]

to creature. what nations have that? an dont kid yourself the most formidable nations military's dont have that. russia china US UK israel austrailia poland etc.. etc... but lets not get too into this, also ya with california and new york banning gay marriage.... i think alot of our nation and well most of it really doesnt want the dont ask dont tell thing away yet. mr honorable obama might but hey his approval rating isnt so great right now either. once again lets not get into this that is neither her nor there and i appologize for getting off topic as much too.



this game makes huge use of stereotypes for good and bad. it is what helps immerse the player in the game and defines so many roles. a big portion of this games people who play it could lose immersion from such a thing.



ha well there may be spoofs out there and that is funny, but still from the actual writers perspective of that relationship, really kirk is pretty far from gay. nowwwwwww if we were to talk about batman and robin ha welllll thats another can of worms ; )

[LoveAsThouWilt]

axdorffe wrote...

well shepard has three origin stories, if you want to believe that somewhere along the line he/she got a sex change, i guess thats open to the player. but to love as thou wilt.. ya they prolly realized hey wait alot of the people who play this game are young adolescent males. they like action sex and anything epic haha, they might lose game immersion if they found out that so and so is gay....... would also like to point out the dont ask dont tell rule in the united states military.. basically it would break alot of immersion for most people if some male npc was gay. for some reason i think most people would be less inclined to continue playing if they found out that will from will and grace was your subordinate commander.. once again not trying to offend anyone but it is what it is and as bioware stated earlier mass effect isnt about a completely imagined character. mass effect is about shepard, a preimagined deigned character with leniency in what decisions you would have him do. not a character you make deciding all aspects of his life. he is more or less like the james t. kirk of mass effect. james t. kirk may be into alot of things, females for sure haha, but he isnt in to spock.

LIAR! Of course he's into Spock (meh thats just how the new movie appeared to me!)

Still, Don't Ask Don't Tell would not exist in a future such as Mass Effect considering that even now the majority of the militaries that once had similar policies allow their soldiers to serve openly. They even mock America for keeping ours. Many people in America want it taken away as well, becuse honestly, if your willing to die for your country "WHO THE HELL CARES WHAT GETS YOU HOT"

As for Mass Effect I will once again return to the fact that it would be an option just like ALL romances are optional in Mass Effect. Hence, if they had gone through with the Kaiden romance in ME1 we wouldn't have this discussion because the issue would have been dealt with and they would have STILL had the same fanbase (if not more for learning of that).

People are as ignorant as those that appear on these threads. They claim they wouldn't play due to homophobia, but the fact of the matter is that they would STILL play in the same regard that I will continue to play Mass Effect because it is a great game franchise and story. I just feel my Shepard was left out because he was OFFERED Kaiden and yet had him taken away. Not fair.

To bioware: Give us Kaiden! pretty please?

[axdorffe]

creature, many people have left the military and came out afterwords....... however i cant find one instance publicly where a member of our SO forces came out afterwords... this could be for many reasons, but once again it is what it is and until somehting like that does happen, the point for losing immersion based off stereotypes, roles, and themes is a prevalent issue as to why they would not include a M/M romance. alot of our people just arent ready for that or accept it. from a dev perspective you stand to lose a number of players that play a game like mass effect. DAO is a diff type of game attracting different players, yes many play both ( as do I ) but the point is still made. alot more the general public plays mass effect. DAO has a huge following and attracts many people, its a great game. but it attracts a a generally different audience overall. its like comparing the average halo player or gears player to your average D and D player.... usually there is a difference in the overall picture. once again i would like to say yes i know alot of people play both ( im one of them) but on an overall level its just usually targeted for different people

[Creature 1]

axdorffe wrote...

to creature. what nations have that? an dont kid yourself the most formidable nations military's dont have that. russia china US UK israel austrailia poland etc.. etc...

Not so familiar with other countries' policies, I see.  Israel's military is very gay-friendly.  Australia, the UK, and Poland allow gays to serve openly.  So do Germany, France, Italy, Spain, and Canada.  And that's by no means an exhaustive list.  Most European nations and several major South American nations (Brazil, Argentina) allow gays to serve openly. 

Russia and China do not allow gays to serve openly, but they hardly serve as good examples for stellar treatment of human rights.  The only other nation on your list that actually does not allow gays to serve is the US, and we will soon be removed from this list.  Considering the company, that's a very good thing, and happening much too late. 

[LoveAsThouWilt]

Creature 1 wrote...

axdorffe wrote...

to creature. what nations have that? an dont kid yourself the most formidable nations military's dont have that. russia china US UK israel austrailia poland etc.. etc...

Not so familiar with other countries' policies, I see.  Israel's military is very gay-friendly.  Australia, the UK, and Poland allow gays to serve openly.  So do Germany, France, Italy, Spain, and Canada.  And that's by no means an exhaustive list.  Most European nations and several major South American nations (Brazil, Argentina) allow gays to serve openly. 

Russia and China do not allow gays to serve openly, but they hardly serve as good examples for stellar treatment of human rights.  The only other nation on your list that actually does not allow gays to serve is the US, and we will soon be removed from this list.  Considering the company, that's a very good thing, and happening much too late. 

Yeah, but the possiblity of being a military man's beau (french terminology of the word) is impossible right now! lol

And once again, nothing excuses them from voicing out the scene and acting them out yet scrapping it in the end. Someone/s up there in Bioware wanted M/M romance. Perhaps it was EA that hade them get rid of it, but I want an explanation and until then I will complain for them to give it back!

[axdorffe]

what countries do you refer to? you still didnt list any? and others mock us? no, other countries have mocked us for having such a wide acceptance of diversity such as america does (were america the melting pot diversity makes us great) but no, enemies and allies of america have mocked us for being so open to gays. reason being? alot of countries have large religious influences over them. also, yes you may be correct on some countries in europe mocking us, i dont know the info about any however. but for the most part, no most of the very formidable countries do not allow such, and i would also like to point out, most of the middle eastern countries have very strict policies towards homosexuals. thats a verrrrry huge portion of the world and a huge cultural portion of america who does not accept such beliefs. you also have a number of military people who play this game. that like i stated earlier is not a culture where those beliefs are welcomed. whether most people here or not like or accept christians( i dont know the answer to that) the majority of such do not accept those beliefs. i could go on about other different cultures as well. but lets save time and get to the point. the devs stand to lose a number of players if they did such a romance. it may not be fair to all who play this, and once again i dont want to offend anybody, but really, alot of people just arnt good with that idea.

[LoveAsThouWilt]

axdorffe wrote...

what countries do you refer to? you still didnt list any? and others mock us? no, other countries have mocked us for having such a wide acceptance of diversity such as america does (were america the melting pot diversity makes us great) but no, enemies and allies of america have mocked us for being so open to gays. reason being? alot of countries have large religious influences over them. also, yes you may be correct on some countries in europe mocking us, i dont know the info about any however. but for the most part, no most of the very formidable countries do not allow such, and i would also like to point out, most of the middle eastern countries have very strict policies towards homosexuals. thats a verrrrry huge portion of the world and a huge cultural portion of america who does not accept such beliefs. you also have a number of military people who play this game. that like i stated earlier is not a culture where those beliefs are welcomed. whether most people here or not like or accept christians( i dont know the answer to that) the majority of such do not accept those beliefs. i could go on about other different cultures as well. but lets save time and get to the point. the devs stand to lose a number of players if they did such a romance. it may not be fair to all who play this, and once again i dont want to offend anybody, but really, alot of people just arnt good with that idea.

OPTION people would not have to witness it unless they chose to witness it. Plain and simple.

And Creature I believe DID give a list of such countries.

[axdorffe]

i appologize for my incorrect wording i ment service in those countires SO forces. and if you do the research, many of those people who have come out as gay have been pressured and then forced to leave

[LoveAsThouWilt]

axdorffe wrote...

i appologize for my incorrect wording i ment service in those countires SO forces. and if you do the research, many of those people who have come out as gay have been pressured and then forced to leave

Thats not what this is about though. Bioware a company who seemed to have prided themselves on doing what other game developers are scared to do made 7 steps forward at first and then walked 5 back by CREATING the option for a Kaiden/Shepard romance and removing it.

As I said before, i don't care you don't want to see it: as you would not have to unless you choose to.

I want Bioware to answer the damn questions asked of them, not dodge around them. I want them to give their REASONING for removing that Shepard option. And this still goes back to the fact they would not lose any business. Not in the scope that it would effect any of their earnings at least. I still plan to buy ME2 dlc content and ME3 with or without M/M romance for Shepard, but this is me wanting what was offered and taken away with the first ME1. I say give it back, especially if they have no problem with the female Shepard having the lesbian option.

If a gamer is so uncormfortable with the mere THOUGHT of m/m romance in THEIR game, well, they sound more scared that they would be tempted to choose it than disgusted of the thought.

[LoveAsThouWilt]

Kordaris wrote...

LoveAsThouWilt wrote...

axdorffe wrote...

i appologize for my incorrect wording i ment service in those countires SO forces. and if you do the research, many of those people who have come out as gay have been pressured and then forced to leave

Thats not what this is about though. Bioware a company who seemed to have prided themselves on doing what other game developers are scared to do made 7 steps forward at first and then walked 5 back by CREATING the option for a Kaiden/Shepard romance and removing it.

And that proves they were brave. Everybody knows how the LGBT activists and forum users react to such things.

If a gamer is so uncormfortable with the mere THOUGHT of m/m romance in
THEIR game, well, they sound more scared that they would be tempted to
choose it than disgusted of the thought.

And why does a solely straight Shepard scare some gamers ?

Not brave enough.

[Jebel Krong]

LoveAsThouWilt wrote...

axdorffe wrote...

i appologize for my incorrect wording i ment service in those countires SO forces. and if you do the research, many of those people who have come out as gay have been pressured and then forced to leave

Thats not what this is about though. Bioware a company who seemed to have prided themselves on doing what other game developers are scared to do made 7 steps forward at first and then walked 5 back by CREATING the option for a Kaiden/Shepard romance and removing it.

As I said before, i don't care you don't want to see it: as you would not have to unless you choose to.

I want Bioware to answer the damn questions asked of them, not dodge around them. I want them to give their REASONING for removing that Shepard option. And this still goes back to the fact they would not lose any business. Not in the scope that it would effect any of their earnings at least. I still plan to buy ME2 dlc content and ME3 with or without M/M romance for Shepard, but this is me wanting what was offered and taken away with the first ME1. I say give it back, especially if they have no problem with the female Shepard having the lesbian option.

If a gamer is so uncormfortable with the mere THOUGHT of m/m romance in THEIR game, well, they sound more scared that they would be tempted to choose it than disgusted of the thought.

Bioware OWE you nothing. like any minority group, you are given an inch and want to take a mile. the damn game is not a romance simulator - it is one aspect yes, but pandering to minorities is not BW's duty. in fact they don't have to include anything for anyone - it is their game. complaining about it, (with a very telling profile name btw) vociferously for 80+ pages, by the same few people is just annoying for everyone. if you don't like it, don't play it - go back to all those other games that showcase gay romances.... oh yeah, there aren't any.

[Deviija]

Kordaris wrote...

And why does a solely straight Shepard scare some gamers ?

Shepard isn't 'solely straight.'  FemShep/Kelly proves this.