3059 réponses à ce sujet

[FataliTensei]

Missing out on the combat and story of mass effect is not worth it, I may want the option of having a ****** relationship, but I'm not gonna stop buying Mass Effect games, they're still fun

[Jimmy Fury]

hbk0 wrote...
Third, you are contradicting yourself by saying "It's not like I refuse to buy games without same sex romances and I also agree that romance is not a must in games anyway" and "I can't force myself(or my character) into opposite sex romance just to
see the complete content".

I'm not quite sure how she contradicted herself with that.
She said
1: I will still buy the games without same sex romance
2: Romance isn't a must in games.
3: She does not wish to force her character into a heterosexual romance just to see all the content in the game.

Complete content and "a must" aren't the same thing. Most games don't have any romance so clearly it's not a necessity. Those that do rarely give you options at all because the romance is scripted into the story and you don't get a choice in whether to pursue it or not.

However, once romance is included as an option, it becomes part of the total content of the game. If you want to experience everything the game has to offer you have to experience that as well.

Some of us get very into the RP aspect of the RPG. It's no fun to force your character to do something you see as OOC just so you can get the full effect of the story. Actually, it takes away from the full effect because it takes you out of the character.

[Arik7]

hbk0 wrote...

Arik7 wrote...

Goth Skunk wrote...

Arik7 wrote...

Goth Skunk, I did not buy the game on principle. While I am huge sci-fi fan, I don't want to endorse BioWare's latest decision with my money. 

Based solely on the fact no gay male romance option exists?

While you're entitled to your stance, that is an incredibly weak justification.

Look, to some people, values are more important than video games.  It is so difficult to understand?

Moreover, the point of this type of game is to experience YOUR own adventure.  If I cannot identify with my Shepard, then I cannot fully enjoy the game. 

The point of this type of game is to experience your own adventure PRE-DESIGNED by BioWare. If you cannot identify with your Shepard PRE-DESIGNED by BioWare, then you cannot fully enjoy the game.

Bioware's pre-design includes countless options, including gender, appearance, race, morality, religion, et.... Countless choices throughout the game.   In most other Bioware RPGs, the choices also include sexuality, but not in ME.   What a huge step backwards from Dragon Age.

Modifié par Arik7, 02 février 2010 - 06:18 .

[BrianWilly]

While I certainly wouldn't be opposed to gay DLC, I find the idea of having to "unlock" any sort of gay content to be a little offensive.  It sends the message that any gay content should be secreted away from the "normal" content, in order to not offend the "normal" people's sensibilities.  What, so, should we get separate drinking fountains next as well?  Live in different areas? "Separate but equal"?

**** that noise.

I didn't have to go through some super-special code process in order to unlock gay content for the Sims, or Jade Empire, or KotOR, or Dragon Age...or, hell, the first Mass Effect.  Why does there need to be one for Mass Effect 2 or 3?  That's a bit ridiculous.  It should be in the game proper, on its own merits.

[Goth Skunk]

I agree, it's a step backwards, but it's a SAFE step backwards, and one that won't detrimentally harm the projected sales of the game.



After the Fox News debacle with ME1, I'm not surprised it wasn't included. It's lack of inclusion does not make or break it though.

[Jimmy Fury]

hbk0 wrote...
The point of this type of game is to experience your own adventure PRE-DESIGNED by BioWare. If you cannot identify with your Shepard PRE-DESIGNED by BioWare, then you cannot fully enjoy the game.

By that logic anyone who plays makes a custom face, plays FemShep, or changes the color of their armor... isn't actually able to ever enjoy the game.
Since... ya know... Shep is predesigned to have a dutch underwear model's face, be a dude, and wear black and red armor since that is how he appears in all the promo materials.

[Dunhart]

After Jade Empire and Dragon Age already did it, it feels like a slap in the face that Mass Effect chose not to pursue that kind of freedom. It's like whoever was in charge of this project going "You liked your same sex romances? TOO BAD, we hate you and want you to die", although that might reading too much into things...



Bioware has always been something of a leading example and we should be grateful for every concession they make to please even the fans that are NOT part of the "same sex romances are gay unless it's two chicks doing it, which is hot" demographic, but I can't help but feel disappointed after having my hopes lifted by previous releases.



You can argue about shoehorning and creative licensing all you want but the fact that f/f relationships still exist while m/m's don't makes it abundantly clear that Bioware is still in the business of pleasing the fans. We (the homosexual males) just didn't factor in this time, for whatever reason.



Oh well, back to playing on a female character then. At least Jennifer Hale's soothing voice will comfort me a little.

[BrianWilly]

hbk0 wrote...
The point of this type of game is to experience your own adventure PRE-DESIGNED by BioWare. If you cannot identify with your Shepard PRE-DESIGNED by BioWare, then you cannot fully enjoy the game.

Y'know what, people keep forgetting that Bioware had already "pre-designed" a lesbian romance in Mass Effect 1.  Commander Shepard's gender -- much less his or her sexual determination -- has certainly not been predetermined by the confines of the game.  It's just the option for it very glaringly does not show up in this portion of the story.

Unless you're saying that, for some reason, a female Shepard's sexuality is fluid, whereas a male Shepard is locked into being straight.

[hbk0]

Arik7 wrote...

hbk0 wrote...

Arik7 wrote...

Goth Skunk wrote...

Arik7 wrote...

Goth Skunk, I did not buy the game on principle. While I am huge sci-fi fan, I don't want to endorse BioWare's latest decision with my money. 

Based solely on the fact no gay male romance option exists?

While you're entitled to your stance, that is an incredibly weak justification.

Look, to some people, values are more important than video games.  It is so difficult to understand?

Moreover, the point of this type of game is to experience YOUR own adventure.  If I cannot identify with my Shepard, then I cannot fully enjoy the game. 

The point of this type of game is to experience your own adventure PRE-DESIGNED by BioWare. If you cannot identify with your Shepard PRE-DESIGNED by BioWare, then you cannot fully enjoy the game.

Bioware's pre-design includes countless options, including gender, appearance, race, morality, religion, et.... Countless choices throughout the game.   In most other Bioware RPGs, the choices also include sexuality, but not in ME.   What a huge step backwards from Dragon Age.

ME and Dragon Age are two different games, thus have different approach as for this matter.
Also, it's not like it's mandatory that ME must follow the footstep of Dragon Age. Whether it's a step backwards or not is merely your opinion but not a fact.

Also I don't see the point of this thread and all the argument here. Apparent some people want their voice heard and people did hear their voice. And I'm sure BioWare is aware of this concern already. So what's the point of the discussion.

[hbk0]

Jimmy Fury wrote...

hbk0 wrote...
The point of this type of game is to experience your own adventure PRE-DESIGNED by BioWare. If you cannot identify with your Shepard PRE-DESIGNED by BioWare, then you cannot fully enjoy the game.

By that logic anyone who plays makes a custom face, plays FemShep, or changes the color of their armor... isn't actually able to ever enjoy the game.
Since... ya know... Shep is predesigned to have a dutch underwear model's face, be a dude, and wear black and red armor since that is how he appears in all the promo materials.

Oh man, can't you tell it was a parody of the person I quoted?

Modifié par hbk0, 02 février 2010 - 06:29 .

[BrianWilly]

Goth Skunk wrote...

I agree, it's a step backwards, but it's a SAFE step backwards, and one that won't detrimentally harm the projected sales of the game.

After the Fox News debacle with ME1, I'm not surprised it wasn't included. It's lack of inclusion does not make or break it though.

I honestly can't imagine that has a single thing to do with it.  Disregarding that the entire "report" they made was laughably inaccurate, Fox News hardly mentioned the gay content in ME1 at all; if anything they were more vehement against the heterosexual romance itself.

[Goth Skunk]

The point of the discussion is: Is it worthwhile for BioWare to include a gay male romance option in the Mass Effect franchise?

a) Can BioWare implement such an option, and profit from it?
Can BioWare defend itself from the certain LOUD public backlash from a vocal minority of intolerant primates?

There are folks from one side who say 'yes,' and folks on another side who say 'Keep teh ghey outta my vidja gaem!!!1'

From my perspective, I pity BioWare for being in this position.

Modifié par Goth Skunk, 02 février 2010 - 06:33 .

[hbk0]

BrianWilly wrote...

hbk0 wrote...
The point of this type of game is to experience your own adventure PRE-DESIGNED by BioWare. If you cannot identify with your Shepard PRE-DESIGNED by BioWare, then you cannot fully enjoy the game.

Y'know what, people keep forgetting that Bioware had already "pre-designed" a lesbian romance in Mass Effect 1.  Commander Shepard's gender -- much less his or her sexual determination -- has certainly not been predetermined by the confines of the game.  It's just the option for it very glaringly does not show up in this portion of the story.

Unless you're saying that, for some reason, a female Shepard's sexuality is fluid, whereas a male Shepard is locked into being straight.

Yes Bioware pre-designed lesbian romance. But that doesn't mean Bioware HAS TO do the same thing to male Shepard.

And you are absolutely right, in Bioware's design, there's no option for Shepard being gay. It's just simple as that. If it's not in the game, it's not because of their negligence, it's apparently a decision on purpose.

[hbk0]

Goth Skunk wrote...

The point of the discussion is: Is it worthwhile for BioWare to include a gay male romance option in the Mass Effect franchise?

a) Can BioWare implement such an option, and profit from it?
Can BioWare defend itself from the certain LOUD public backlash from a vocal minority of intolerant primates?

There are folks from one side who say 'yes,' and folks on another side who say 'Keep teh ghey outta my vidja gaem!!!1'

From my perspective, I pity BioWare for being in this position.

Good points. Yet I fail to see people in this thread actually following the point you mentioned.
My opinion is simple, it's BioWare's game and they have the right to do whatever they want. We can express our ideas and suggestions, but it's really unfair to blame or accuse them for not including gay romance. This kind of request is technically the same as "why can't we make Shepard a shemale?" Maybe a bit ridiculous, but it's the same logic.

[Teryx]

The Mass Effect story is about our Shepards.  There is no canon Shepard, and while there are points in the story that will be the same for every Shepard, the overall experience is very customized; while it would be disingenous to say that no two people will have the same playthrough, the game is created to allow it to feel that way.

I think that one aspect of all of this is that the people who are against male same-sex romance options in this game are taking for granted is that they can play themselves in these games; they can make the choices they would make in real life, romance the person they feel most attracted or connected to.  That's something that is rarely available in this medium for people in the GLBT community, or people just interested in how that relationship could play out.  Sure, lesbians and bisexual women are (somewhat) catered to, and that's something (assuming, for the time being, that the female/female relationships in the game are not just included to titilate the straight male players).  I don't think anyone who wants a male/male relationship option feels like they are entitled to it, but, I believe that it feels a little bit like they're being cheated; being unable to make their Shepard, in what is supposed to be their version of the story, when everyone else is given that option.

No one is saying that the default male Shepard must be gay, or that you must pursue a gay relationship in the game.  But really, where's the harm in having that option?  Now, it's quite possible that there is no male/male option because none of the other characters in the game would be interested, and that's valid, but after Zevran in DA:O, I think people were just hoping to have a similar option in ME2.  And I ask again, where would the harm be?  Did having Zevran be a possible romantic interest for a male character in DA:O really impact anyone's enjoyment of the game, provided they didn't pursue it?

Just like anything else in this life, if you don't like something, don't do it.  It's simple.  Having the option available would not infringe on anyone's right to not take it.

This isn't about gay rights, it isn't about what's right or wrong (although I'm saddened by the sheer amount of small-minded people who still harbor such hatred and espouse such ignorant stereotypes and blatant homophobia).  It's about being able to tell the story you want to tell, with the character you want to play, in a game that touts that as its major selling point, and a very glaring gap in the options available.

I don't think it's right to not purchase the game because of the lack of a male/male romance option - that's like cutting off your nose to spite your face.  BioWare doesn't have to do anything, of course, and while it's within your rights to not buy the game for that reason, you can just as easily buy the game, play it and avoid the romance aspect altogether, which is very similar to what people not interested in a potential m/m option could do.  It really is a great game, and while not being able to romance a male squad member as a male Shepard is disapointing, there is so much to this game (and this series) that it would be a shame to miss out.

It's late, and I'm sorry for the unfocused ranty nature of this post, but I wanted to add my two cents to the rational discussion going on here between the posts that are... well, let's just go with less so.

Modifié par Pteryx, 02 février 2010 - 06:41 .

[Endurance_117]

If It's about our Shepard why can't I join the reapers or have sex with any woman I want? It's a game, get over it. There will always be limitations

Modifié par Endurance_117, 02 février 2010 - 06:47 .

[Jimmy Fury]

Goth Skunk wrote...
a) Can BioWare implement such an option, and profit from it?
Can BioWare defend itself from the certain LOUD public backlash from a vocal minority of intolerant primates?

It's very nice to boil it down into two easily answered questions. Thank you.


a) Yes.
Invalid Question. This question rests on the assumption that there would be a loud public backlash at all. It's a definable logical fallacy.

Both questions would have been applicable for the release of ME1 when there weren't any gay romances in any video games (except for the sims...). They no longer apply though. That bridge has been crossed multiple times now and there has yet to be a single solitary "LOUD public backlash" about it. There was barely a public whimper over the full frontal male nudity in GTA:TLAD. I think I recall it getting mentioned once as being "the next enveloped pushed by Rockstar".
Clearly it didn't hurt their sales. If it had they never would have released Episodes from Liberty City. A disk costs a lot more to produce than DLC does.

[BrianWilly]

hbk0 wrote...
Yes Bioware pre-designed lesbian romance. But that doesn't mean Bioware HAS TO do the same thing to male Shepard.

And you are absolutely right, in Bioware's design, there's no option for Shepard being gay. It's just simple as that. If it's not in the game, it's not because of their negligence, it's apparently a decision on purpose.

And why should we not voice our disapproval with that decision, especially if we consider it to have been brought about by juvenile attitudes or pandering to the lowest common denominator? 

Consider the fact that they had written and recorded dialogue for a gay male romance, and had it sufficiently scripted enough that some random modder on Das Internets could recreate it almost perfectly.  The fact that they'd pretty much gone through with it only to rescind at the last minute, along with the fact that there is a lesbian romance but not a gay male one, in addition to the lack of male or female homosexual options in ME2 despite six new romances -- several of which are interspecies -- makes the ME team come across as very juvenile and exclusionary.

And that's even disregarding that EA itself doesn't seem to have any problems with this sort of content in their games, such as the hugely popular Sims franchise.  And we're all aware of Bioware's stellar history with this sort of thing.  The onus falls on the Mass Effect team and them alone.

Modifié par BrianWilly, 02 février 2010 - 06:57 .

[BLAHBLUE2001]

Sarissan wrote...

its the future, they cured gay in the military

Unless you are a Female office that is...<_<

[Endurance_117]

BrianWilly wrote...

hbk0 wrote...
Yes Bioware pre-designed lesbian romance. But that doesn't mean Bioware HAS TO do the same thing to male Shepard.

And
you are absolutely right, in Bioware's design, there's no option for
Shepard being gay. It's just simple as that. If it's not in the game,
it's not because of their negligence, it's apparently a decision on
purpose.

And why should we not voice our disapproval with that decision, especially if we consider it to have been brought about by juvenile attitudes or pandering to the lowest common denominator? 

Consider the fact that they had written and recorded dialogue for a gay male romance, and had it sufficiently scripted enough that some random modder on Das Internets could recreate it almost perfectly.  The fact that they'd pretty much gone through with it only to rescind at the last minute, along with the fact that there is a lesbian romance but not a gay male one, in addition to the lack of male or female homosexual options in ME2 despite six new romances -- several of which are interspecies -- makes Bioware come across as very juvenile and exclusionary.

Then stop buying their games, they wont miss you at all

Modifié par Endurance_117, 02 février 2010 - 06:55 .

[BrianWilly]

When has any sort of controversial game content ever resulted in any loss of profit? Honestly, I'm genuinely curious. People keep citing this as some sort of obvious rationale for why the devs wouldn't want gay content in their game, and yet I'm hard-pressed to think of even one single instance where pushing the envelope ever turned out badly for any company.

[Teryx]

@Endurance_117

I understand my post was a little long, but just in case you missed it:

Pteryx wrote...

The Mass Effect story is about our Shepards.  There is no canon Shepard, and while there are points in the story that will be the same for every Shepard...

Shepard will be a hero.  That's the way the story goes.  But it's the little variations along the way that shape your own personal experience of the game.  I, and many others have accepted that there is currently no male/male romance option in Mass Effect and Mass Effect 2.  We are, however, just as free to express our disappointment with this fact, and our hope that the situation will be different in future installments, as you are free to express your disappointment that you can neither destroy every sentient being in the galaxy nor get laid.

As well, there are no examples in the game of joining the bad guys, or sleeping with any NPC in the game.  There are examples of romances between teammates, and even same-sex romances.  A male/male romance is not very far removed from the options that are already present in the games.  It's not reasonable to compare a lack of an option that is very far removed from the main storyline's plot points, to a storyline point that is more or less there already.

Modifié par Pteryx, 02 février 2010 - 07:05 .

[ABCoLD]

BrianWilly wrote...

When has any sort of controversial game content ever resulted in any loss of profit? Honestly, I'm genuinely curious. People keep citing this as some sort of obvious rationale for why the devs wouldn't want gay content in their game, and yet I'm hard-pressed to think of even one single instance where pushing the envelope ever turned out badly for any company.

Well, I suppose there are the Leisure Suit Larry games, but those didn't so much fail because they were soft-core with no boobies game, but because they were really bad games...

So, yeah, I can't think of any either.

[hbk0]

BrianWilly wrote...

hbk0 wrote...
Yes Bioware pre-designed lesbian romance. But that doesn't mean Bioware HAS TO do the same thing to male Shepard.

And you are absolutely right, in Bioware's design, there's no option for Shepard being gay. It's just simple as that. If it's not in the game, it's not because of their negligence, it's apparently a decision on purpose.

And why should we not voice our disapproval with that decision, especially if we consider it to have been brought about by juvenile attitudes or pandering to the lowest common denominator? 

Consider the fact that they had written and recorded dialogue for a gay male romance, and had it sufficiently scripted enough that some random modder on Das Internets could recreate it almost perfectly.  The fact that they'd pretty much gone through with it only to rescind at the last minute, along with the fact that there is a lesbian romance but not a gay male one, in addition to the lack of male or female homosexual options in ME2 despite six new romances -- several of which are interspecies -- makes the ME team come across as very juvenile and exclusionary.

And that's even disregarding that EA itself doesn't seem to have any problems with this sort of content in their games, such as the hugely popular Sims franchise.  And we're all aware of Bioware stellar history with this sort of thing.  The onus falls on the Mass Effect team and them alone.

I'm pretty sure you have voiced your disapproval already and they must have heard it, considering one locked thread.

Also I don't see anything wrong with Bioware leave the option out. Even if it's half way done, it's totally reasonable they deem it not fit in the character or their design. We can't guess their motives for doing so because we are not the developers. And it's their freedom to create anything. Leaving the option out doesn't mean they are against or it's their fault because they don't have the obligation to cater everyone.

For this matter, I would suggest you guys should all write a formal letter to the Bioware executives. I think that would be more effective than posting these kind of threads which are highly possible to be deleted or locked.

[Goth Skunk]

Pteryx wrote...

No one is saying that the default male Shepard must be gay, or that you must pursue a gay relationship in the game.  But really, where's the harm in having that option?  Now, it's quite possible that there is no male/male option because none of the other characters in the game would be interested, and that's valid, but after Zevran in DA:O, I think people were just hoping to have a similar option in ME2.  And I ask again, where would the harm be?  Did having Zevran be a possible romantic interest for a male character in DA:O really impact anyone's enjoyment of the game, provided they didn't pursue it?

I really like this point. As I mentioned before, I suspect the reason for inclusion in one and not the other may be a test of tolerance from the customer base, with DA:O as the variable and ME2 as the control..