100 réponses à ce sujet

[kjs7]

newcomplex wrote...

In terms of actual hard sci fi, mass effect fails hardcore, compared to stuff like Hyperion Cantos and Dune.

But as a piece of Space Opera, its relatively well written.

Mass Effect isn't hard science fiction, why compare it to that? That is not what it aims to be so saying it "fails hardcore" at being something it doesn't aspire to be is totally worthless.

It's like saying District 9 fails hardcore at being a romantic comedy.

Modifié par kjs7, 02 février 2010 - 02:46 .

[daemon1129]

Borschtbeet wrote...

I think one of the things that makes Mass Effect so much more appealing that Star Wars is that it takes place in our universe. Not in a galaxy far far away, but in our galaxy. I look at the events in Mass Effect and I can picture a semblance of such things eventually happening.
Star Wars relies too heavily on nonsensical psychobabble with vague religious undertones that often don't make much sense.
Anakin Skywalker was an immaculate conception? ? What a bunch of crap!
Mass Effect develops it's storyline based on scientific probabilities and doesn't stretch the truth so far that it becomes plain silly.

Even the abundance of humanoid aliens is explain in Mass Effect through convergent evolution. This always used to bother me in sci-fi stories how so many aliens resembled humans. Mass Effect has got to be the only one which has ever even attempted to explain why.

Mass Effect Field isn't anymore convicing than the Force.  Element Zero is just the same as Mitochlorians.  Its a very common way to make something impossible, explainable in sci fi.  Like Mana in Fantasy stories.  I have this energy, therefore I can do all sort of things.  The difference in Mass Effect is you need implants to use biotic powers, where you need heavy training and natural affinity to use the Force well.  There difference are just he method.  Star Wars alien might be very common nowadays, but it was cosidered very unique and creative back then.  With the science understanding in 70s, its a lot harder for a non science to come up with detialed evolutions on how the alien looks.  And I don't see how aliens can't look like humans in a way?  Humans get to dominate earth is because of our body struture, I'm pretty sure any other planet's dminate speices would share a fairly similar to humans.  Hanars would never have been able to develope tools.

[kiyyto]

Borschtbeet wrote...

The science and logic in Mass Effect is so rich and well written that it is impossible to take derivative crap like Star Trek and Star Wars seriously anymore.  Mass Effect just flat out blows them away.

You are a tool.
I have to take the flying **** roach to places, but in star trek they warp.
Both star wars and star trek have laser guns that don’t need “ablative heat ammo whatever gay.”

You know why you wrote this post.
So do I, but I’m giving ti to you anyway.
I

[Lmaoboat]

Borschtbeet wrote...

The science and logic in Mass Effect is so rich and well written that it is impossible to take derivative crap like Star Trek and Star Wars seriously anymore.  Mass Effect just flat out blows them away.

That is not to say Mass Effect is the best sci fi story ever told, but compared to mainstream sci fi franchises, it clearly comes out on top.

The only "space opera" I can think of that is on the same level as Mass Effect is the Lensman series by Edward E. Smith.  

In fact, I think Mr.Karpyshyn has probably read these books since I can notice several sources of inspiration.

One great thing about Mass Effect is that even though it is rich in science and meticulous detail, it doesn't come at the expense of the characters.  Indeed, Mass Effect is a sci fi story with a heart that touches you emotionally as well as intellectually.

All you people who don't like Mass Effect 2, drop dead!

Calling Star Trek and Star Wars derivative is like calling Wolfenstine 3d a doom clone.

[Lmaoboat]

-double post-

Modifié par Lmaoboat, 02 février 2010 - 02:52 .

[Lemonio]

Borschtbeet wrote...

The science and logic in Mass Effect is so rich and well written that it is impossible to take derivative crap like Star Trek and Star Wars seriously anymore.  Mass Effect just flat out blows them away.

That is not to say Mass Effect is the best sci fi story ever told, but compared to mainstream sci fi franchises, it clearly comes out on top.

The only "space opera" I can think of that is on the same level as Mass Effect is the Lensman series by Edward E. Smith.  

In fact, I think Mr.Karpyshyn has probably read these books since I can notice several sources of inspiration.

One great thing about Mass Effect is that even though it is rich in science and meticulous detail, it doesn't come at the expense of the characters.  Indeed, Mass Effect is a sci fi story with a heart that touches you emotionally as well as intellectually.

All you people who don't like Mass Effect 2, drop dead!

seriously?
i love mass effect 2, but it is really not that deep a sci-fi...
i mean even tos is far deeper than mass effect 2...and most of the lore in me2 comes from star trek: tos

in terms of some really deep sci-fi you have the dystopia books: WE, 1984, brave new world - half life 2 fits into this genre and is definetly the deepest and most complex game i have played, bioshock was, ok

greatest sci-fi is of course, do androids dream of electric sheep
blade runner was good, but the book was incredible

Modifié par Lemonio, 02 février 2010 - 02:58 .

[cyvaris]

Borschtbeet wrote...

I think one of the things that makes Mass Effect so much more appealing that Star Wars is that it takes place in our universe. Not in a galaxy far far away, but in our galaxy. I look at the events in Mass Effect and I can picture a semblance of such things eventually happening.
Star Wars relies too heavily on nonsensical psychobabble with vague religious undertones that often don't make much sense.
Anakin Skywalker was an immaculate conception? Mitochlorians? What a bunch of crap!
Mass Effect develops it's storyline based on scientific probabilities and doesn't stretch the truth so far that it becomes plain silly.

Even the abundance of humanoid aliens is explain in Mass Effect through convergent evolution. This always used to bother me in sci-fi stories how so many aliens resembled humans. Mass Effect has got to be the only one which has ever even attempted to explain why.

Wait there are movies about Anakin, as in Luke's father? 

Yeah most of the loyal fans still think Lucas was takin a hit of something when he wrote that/all of the prequels.

[kjs7]

Lemonio wrote...


seriously?
i love mass effect 2, but it is really not that deep a sci-fi...
i mean even tos is far deeper than mass effect 2...and most of the lore in me2 comes from star trek: tos

in terms of some really deep sci-fi you have the dystopia books: WE, 1984, brave new world - half life 2 fits into this genre and is definetly the deepest and most complex game i have played, bioshock was, ok

greatest sci-fi is of course, do androids dream of electric sheep
blade runner was good, but the book was incredible

Half Life 2, more complex than Mass effect?
Seriously?

I don't think Mass Effect is incredible, but Half Life 2 doesn't even compare. 

[newcomplex]

kjs7 wrote...

newcomplex wrote...

In terms of actual hard sci fi, mass effect fails hardcore, compared to stuff like Hyperion Cantos and Dune.

But as a piece of Space Opera, its relatively well written.

Mass Effect isn't hard science fiction, why compare it to that? That is not what it aims to be so saying it "fails hardcore" at being something it doesn't aspire to be is totally worthless.

It's like saying District 9 fails hardcore at being a romantic comedy.

Calm down.   I like ME as much as the next guy, you don't have to take every critisism personally.    I said if fails "hardcore" as tradional science fiction because the OP said IN THE TITLE that it made other "Sci-FI" look primitive.  Which it really doesn't.   Though it certainly is on par with modern "space operas" and soft science fiction.    

[Lemonio]

kjs7 wrote...

Lemonio wrote...


seriously?
i love mass effect 2, but it is really not that deep a sci-fi...
i mean even tos is far deeper than mass effect 2...and most of the lore in me2 comes from star trek: tos

in terms of some really deep sci-fi you have the dystopia books: WE, 1984, brave new world - half life 2 fits into this genre and is definetly the deepest and most complex game i have played, bioshock was, ok

greatest sci-fi is of course, do androids dream of electric sheep
blade runner was good, but the book was incredible

Half Life 2, more complex than Mass effect?
Seriously?

I don't think Mass Effect is incredible, but Half Life 2 doesn't even compare. 

then you probably didn't play half life 2
or you didn't listen to any of the dialogue or dr. breen's speeches and just shot through the whole game

[VasQuipQuip]

I've been a Star Wars fan since I was a kid and I think the Mass Effect universe is way better.

[Mox Ruuga]

This only applies really to ME1.

ME2 has many good points, but it doesn't really care about all the lore that was established in ME1. The ME2 dev team took the route of "if it's cool, who cares if it's plausible". And before anyone starts harping on about "it's just a game, stop being so serious!1!", I like my games to be internally consistent. Especially if the original team went to such great lengths in immersive universe building.

Here's hoping ME3 is a turn away from the cartoon aesthetics, and more like the (at least somewhat) serious ME1.

[ucookie]

Obviously, someone hasn't played Star Control 2...

[Valdrane78]

Crawling_Chaos wrote...

Evil Johnny 666 wrote...

"Space opera is a subgenre of speculative fiction or science fiction that emphasizes romantic, often melodramatic adventure, set mainly or entirely in space, generally involving conflict between opponents possessing powerful (and sometimes quite fanciful) technologies and abilities." Wikipedia

Science fiction, Mass Effect is a space opera, but considering Star Wars to be real science fiction wouldn't be very accurate. It is considered science fiction to those who don't know about science fiction.

Star Wars has a lot of conventions common in Space Opera's.  Anyway, Space Opera's are at the bottom of the pile of real science fiction.

Star Wars is a Space Fantasy not Science Fiction or a Space Opera.  The difference between fantasy and opera is story and characters.  While the conflict is a componant,  the main part of the story is mostly character driven.

[kab]

I find Star Wars fun. It's not a good story and it's soft-science from lawltown but it's fun. If you can't find samurai in space entertaining there's something wrong with you.



The Mass Effect IP is, however, a much more interesting view of the future.

[hbk0]

ME universe has a lot of reference of previous Sci-Fi establishment and it's based on all the previous works. It might be good, but nothing original and is far from making other Sci-Fi source primitive. For young people who start to dig Sci-Fi not long ago, it's understandable. But for old Sci-Fi fan, we simply can't ignore the significance of the root.

[Dexter111]

Seriously?

I mean Mass Effect is great and all but it is NO Star Trek or Star Wars...

It also came decades after said universes and draws heavily on both of them.
I think it would also be safe to say that without Star Wars and Star Trek and Bioware previously developing KOTOR there would BE no "Mass Effect" as much as there probably wouldn't be a Star Trek or Star Wars without pioneers in the genre like Jules Verne and H. G. Wells.

[Valdrane78]

hbk0 wrote...

ME universe has a lot of reference of previous Sci-Fi establishment and it's based on all the previous works. It might be good, but nothing original and is far from making other Sci-Fi source primitive. For young people who start to dig Sci-Fi not long ago, it's understandable. But for old Sci-Fi fan, we simply can't ignore the significance of the root.

To name a few....

Buck Rogers
Farscape
Battlestar Galactica (original and remake)
Space Rangers
Star Wars
Pitch Black
Heavy Metal
Dune

etc etc etc

[Trigonous]

Not to downgrade the fictional-science behind it, but it's kinda easy to do once you come up with the idea to make a machine that changes mass. There really are unlimited possibilities if you can break the Law of Conservation of Mass. You can really think up (virtually) any scientific hurdle, and overcome it by manipulating mass.

[Jinadan]

BonsaiTreee wrote...

name some more good sci fi reads if it suits you anyone.

I thoroughly enjoyed the Star Wars "Thrawn" trilogy of books written by Timothy Zahn.

[screwoffreg]

It is a great storyline and as much as I'd like to see a movie series, we would probably all be upset as the onscreen Shepard would likely doing things not in line with our own experiences (Romancing Ashley, who the hell does that?!)

[Zulu_DFA]

Borschtbeet wrote...

The science and logic in Mass Effect is so rich and well written that it is impossible to take derivative crap like Star Trek and Star Wars seriously anymore.  Mass Effect just flat out blows them away.

That is not to say Mass Effect is the best sci fi story ever told, but compared to mainstream sci fi franchises, it clearly comes out on top.

The only "space opera" I can think of that is on the same level as Mass Effect is the Lensman series by Edward E. Smith.  

In fact, I think Mr.Karpyshyn has probably read these books since I can notice several sources of inspiration.

One great thing about Mass Effect is that even though it is rich in science and meticulous detail, it doesn't come at the expense of the characters.  Indeed, Mass Effect is a sci fi story with a heart that touches you emotionally as well as intellectually.

All you people who don't like Mass Effect 2, drop dead!

I agree with all of the above, except for the last sentence. I don't like ME2 as much as I liked the first game, exactly for the reason that it is a huge setback from that profoundly built sci-fi universe of Mass Effect. It's already on its way to become a derivative, just like Star Wars and Star Trek. ME2 is way more cheezy & cornball & comicbookish than the original Mass Effect. In ME2 the characters come at the expense of those sci-fi riches and meticulous detail.

It just seems pure sci-fi doesn't sell well enough.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 02 février 2010 - 07:08 .

[Giantevilhead]

Borschtbeet wrote...

The science and logic in Mass Effect is so rich and well written that it is impossible to take derivative crap like Star Trek and Star Wars seriously anymore.  Mass Effect just flat out blows them away.

That is not to say Mass Effect is the best sci fi story ever told, but compared to mainstream sci fi franchises, it clearly comes out on top.

The only "space opera" I can think of that is on the same level as Mass Effect is the Lensman series by Edward E. Smith.  

In fact, I think Mr.Karpyshyn has probably read these books since I can notice several sources of inspiration.

One great thing about Mass Effect is that even though it is rich in science and meticulous detail, it doesn't come at the expense of the characters.  Indeed, Mass Effect is a sci fi story with a heart that touches you emotionally as well as intellectually.

All you people who don't like Mass Effect 2, drop dead!

Are you serious? Do you know what the word "derivative" means? Do you realize how much stuff Mass Effect takes from Star Trek, Star Wars, Babylon 5, Farscape, Warhammer 40K, etc.?

The Krogans are essentially Klingons + Ork.

Reapers - Necrons/Cthulhu/Terminator

Volus - Ferengi/Hynerians

Hanar - Thyrrus

Rachni - Tyranid/Zerg

Thorian - Gravemind

Turians - Luxans

Geth - Matrix Machines

Quarians - Galactica

Asari - Eldars/Delvians

Spectres - Jedis/Inquisitors

The Illusive Man - G-Man/Cigarette Smoking Man

Mass effect - subspace

Biotics - Force users/psykers

The entire plot of the first two games takes liberally from Star Trek Enterprise and The Dirty Dozen.

[gotthammer]

Jinadan wrote...

BonsaiTreee wrote...

name some more good sci fi reads if it suits you anyone.

I thoroughly enjoyed the Star Wars "Thrawn" trilogy of books written by Timothy Zahn.

Yup. That was a great trilogy...IMHO, that would've made for better movies than the 'Prequels' (heck, IMHO, the best Star Wars movie wasn't even directed by Lucas, i.e. The Empire Strikes Back).
Other good sci-fi reads? For cyberpunk, there's William Gibson's stuff and Neal Stephenson's 'Snow Crash' (tho' I think it's also been referred to as post-cyberpunk *shrugs*). There's also Masamune Shirow's Ghost in the Shell stuff (both the comics/manga and anime are great).

For Space Opera/Fantasy/whatever? Hmm. Warhammer 40,000 has some nice stuff (some of the Gaunt's Ghost novels and the Ciaphas Cain novels, and the Eisenhorn Trilogy).
Someone mentioned Honorverse, but I can't personally vouch for that as I haven't started (been curious about it for a while now, tho').
I would recommend an anime: Legend of the Galactic Heroes. IMHO, LoGH is quite, literally, Space Opera. (to save money, I think, they used TONS of classical/operatic pieces from composers such as Mahler, Wagner and Dvorak...and to GREAT effect, IMHO).
For TV: Farscape, Firefly and Stargate SG-1 & Atlantis (not too sold on Universe, yet) are nice, too.

As for derivative work/s: aren't they all, one way or another? I mean, remove the 'dressing', and you're core story has probably been told in one way or form already.
Heck, I was watching Farscape last night while my bro was playing ME2 and I was amused by some similarities in feel/theme.
IMHO, it doesn't matter if a work is derived/based-on/inspired by another...what's important is that the end result is something that 'works'.

[CosmicTony]

Well I could harp on a bit about the fact that Mass Effect is in fact as derivative as they come but I think people know that deep down. If you're well read (or even seen a few movies in the genre) you would never think it made other sci-fi look primitive. I am more inclined to see what ME blatantly rips-off then I would laud it for its originality.
Its a very well structured and put together world... in sci-fi that is a huge compliment and about the best you can get considering it all feeds on each other. If it gels and you makes you feel more immersed in the experience then that's very cool.

And I have to kick the boot in a bit... Star Wars is not sci-fi, its fantasy with spaceships.