100 réponses à ce sujet

[Giantevilhead]

Havokk7 wrote...

I think some of the posters in this thread are confusing "based on" with "based on the same archetype".

I don't think it is true to say 'Krogan are based on Klingons". It is true that both are based on the same archetype - that of an honourable warrior race - an archetype that has been in stories for centuries.

B

P.S. Star Wars is not space fantasy. It is a martial arts story. The archetype of an inexperienced but talented young person on a quest to find a wise teacher to defeat a powerful evil is a very old archetype. It was already old when Kurosawa made The Hidden Fortress (the movie that Star Wars A New Hope is based on).

Obviously if we were to get all Joseph Campbell/Carl Jung on the subject, we could say that Star Trek/Star Wars/Babylon 5/Dune/Farscape/Warhammer 40K/etc. aren't original either and that all stories stem from the collective unconscious that's been with us since the beginning of human history.

However, many of the similarities between the ME races and races in other fiction are not just archetypal. There are a lot of details and mannerisms that are similar. Klingons aren't just an honorable warrior race with a lot of history and rituals. They're an honorable warrior race that have lost their way and became more concerned with personal gain while using honor as an excuse for a lot of their unsavory actions. That pretty much describes the Krogans. The Klingons may not have fallen as far as the Krogans but they're pretty bad. They both have a lot of redundant organs. Krogans keep Varrens as pets, Klingons keep Targs as pets. They both prefer close range/melee combat. They both like to hire themselves out as mercenaries. Their violence and aggression often runs counter to their code of honor. They even had Michael Dorn do the voice of a Krogan.

Also, there are things that aren't really based on archetypes like the Reapers/Cthulhu mythos, the Rachni/Tyranid/Zerg, Thorian/Gravemind/Overmind and Geth/Matrix machines.

Modifié par Giantevilhead, 02 février 2010 - 10:07 .

[Evil Johnny 666]

KilrB wrote...

BonsaiTreee wrote...

name some more good sci fi reads if it suits you anyone.

How about most anything by Lary Niven, from whom MS stole the "Ringworld" for Halo?

Ok, ok I'm an Halo fan, but that statement is just plain wrong.

1st. That would be Bungie, not MS as Halo was first supposed to be released on Mac and they clearly did not made up all the story.

2nd. Have you read some Iain M. Banks book? Another reknown sci-fi author? What about the Culture books? What do you think are orbitals?

3rd. Besides, the Ringworld was designed around the dyson sphere concept, an idea that was looked upon a lot by sci-fi authors which made the ringworld and orbitals.

4th. The Bungie creators are big science fiction fans and Halo is nothing more than a tribute to their favourite sci-fi works, another reason why I like the series so much. There's the military idea (and look) of Aliens and the Halos look being a LOT influenced by the Orbitals. I don't remember (because they said they were inspired by those sci-fi works) if they were inspired by Ringworld or Consider Phlebas but the Halos are a lot more akin in size and design to the Orbitals (they don't have shadow squares as much as I know). There's also an obvious Ender's Game influence with the spartans and flame me as much as you like, I prefer the military idea of spartans, super-soldiers than the more... "super-hero" idea of the kids in Ender's Game. I think they also stated being influenced by Dune and some others I don't remember. The flood also highly remembered me of other creatures, but I can't quite remember. Maybe the zerg because of the Overmind/Gravemind? Anyway. It's just an interpretation of some of their favourite sci-fi elements and concepts.

PS: I read Ringworld and it some awesome piece of hardcore science fiction. Though you must admit Larry Niven got better in his writing skills with The Ringworld Engineers.

Modifié par Evil Johnny 666, 02 février 2010 - 10:44 .

[Evil Johnny 666]

And to those speaking of originality, in this day and age, the golden age of science fiction is over. Most has been told and done before as with any other literary genres. There's no original story anymore, everything has already been told, the thing with science fiction is that it's more apparent as everything is more fancy.

[Brayton]

I have yet to see anything like Half Life 2 go beyond itself and mods...

Half Life may have the DOOM thing going but it twists it around with you fighting the Marines, not being one...

[overb]

Has anyone noticed the similarities between Dan Simmons' "Hyperion" and ME storyline?

Modifié par overb, 02 février 2010 - 10:52 .

[MBirkhofer]

Ryuuichi009 wrote...

Mass Effect blows Star Wars away?

....

Its like the people comparing Twilight to Anne Rice and JK Rowling.

T_T

I think it does.  I find it slightly amusing that you use Anne Rice and Jk Rowling as staples of "good" literature..  But moving on.
Mass Effect is not entirely original.  as has been brought up.  It very much is a universe crafted by someone that clearly has read alot of sci fi, and has blended a great many ideas, and concepts into one universe. 
ME captures much of what was lost in Starwars over time. The artestry both in concept, and design.  The concept artists working on these games are top notch.
Illum is straight out of Blade runner.  That is no accident.    The citidal is very iconic of classic Dyson cylinider design concepts.

[Dethateer]

Star Wars not a masterpiece? Unless you're talking about the prequel trilogy, I declare you a heretic!

[MBirkhofer]

Ryuuichi009 wrote...

MBirkhofer wrote...

Ryuuichi009 wrote...

Mass Effect blows Star Wars away?

....

Its like the people comparing Twilight to Anne Rice and JK Rowling.

T_T

I think it does.  I find it slightly amusing that you use Anne Rice and Jk Rowling as staples of "good" literature..  But moving on.
Mass Effect is not entirely original.  as has been brought up.  It very much is a universe crafted by someone that clearly has read alot of sci fi, and has blended a great many ideas, and concepts into one universe. 
ME captures much of what was lost in Starwars over time. The artestry both in concept, and design.  The concept artists working on these games are top notch.
Illum is straight out of Blade runner.  That is no accident.    The citidal is very iconic of classic Dyson cylinider design concepts.

I never said they were masterpieces. They're just a heck of a lot better than Twilight. <_<

I was comparing that to ME and Star Wars. Neither of those are masterpieces either. 

I would argue they both are.    Speaking of SW original trilology.   It is.  It certinaly may not be a wordy screenplay comparable to Shakespeare. And its not exactly Casablanca either.    But it is an action/adventure serial masterpiece.  Again, the concept design and excecution, with pacing, acting, etc all came together perfectly.

There are flaws in the ME games.   But what they are doing right, they are doing very right.  I expect time will remember this series very fondly.

[Makoto SFG]

Borschtbeet wrote...

Evil Johnny 666 wrote...

Star Wars is overrated anyway. Both KoTOR and KoTOR II have better stories than the movies, seriously, they are so cliché and more fantasy in the future than anything else.

Yeah I agree.  KOTOR shat all over anything George Lucas made.

Really, I think the only thing amazing about Star Wars is that the special effects(from the original trilogy) were very very good for their time.

That is about it.

How can this even be said?  How can this even be a point of argument? 

Without the original Star Wars existing in the first place there wouldn't have been the rich universe for KotOR to have based its story upon.  A universe which has been contributed to by so many fans of the movies. 

Granted, Star Wars itself is a rather simple premise.  As an age-old story of good and evil it wasn't trying to make you think rather than pull you into its world.  Saying KotOR ****s all over his [Lucas] work is ridiculous and childish. 

[Knightfly]

While I agree with OP Mass Effect blows most sci-fi stories out of the water I wouldn't call something like Trek for instance crap, not talking just purely about the films since half of them are mediocre (& last one was fun but just a blockbuster) but to call it crap is a little far especially with the great thought and massive story which makes up Star Trek as a whole. And then you have other sci-fi (not talking about books) like Firefly/Serenity which aren't big huge save the universe type sci-fi but are equally impressive on different levels (characters, storytelling, thought behind some of the cliched sci-fi, etc). For a big space opera I also love Wing Commander both the games & film which I think is one of the greatest sci-fi stories around, don't knock the film it holds a soft spot in my heart.

I would definitely put Mass Effect up there with some great movies & shows of the last 20 years, on a personel level for me its the characters then the story which get me hooked or immersed in a great sci-fi story, personally Mass Effect is one of my favourite sci-fi stories but not my number 1, .

Modifié par Knightfly, 02 février 2010 - 11:47 .

[RyuAzai]

Being a huge Star Wars, I agree in similiar ways to how Mass Effect can give it a 'run for it's money'(Sorry my Dragon brother ) if it expands into other means of media beyond video games.



The big problem with Star Wars was that instead of focusing on this group and these problems, they kept expanding, and expanding, and expanding. To create a new interesting character let's not just make a good background let's make an entirely new race! That look really cool!



And then it started to turn into that Jedi are usually the only people that can get things done.



Then as the legacy comes about it just made me shake my head. While I liked the characters and the art... It is LITERALLY just the same story as the original trilogy. A republic falling, an Empire rising. A band of misfits getting together and taking on the 'dark lords'. A skywalker in the center of it all....



Don't get me wrong I am a die hard Solo and Fett fan. I just wished instead of constantly making entirely new planets or species for new problems, or character types. I wished Star Wars would've focused on what they already had.



Mass Effect is doing that right now. They have a chance to get into the problem have always making new things(And I still believe they are plenty of room to create new species and others at the moment) But they focus heavily on the problems and 'humanity' of the galaxy.



Of course most of their work is inspired by other things, EVERYTHING is inspired by other things. Whether it is the work of another, or what you actually experience in life.(How an earthquake shakes the ground, how the ocean can destroy fleets) It all is inspiration for the creative mind.

[kjs7]

Lemonio wrote...

then you probably didn't play half life 2
or you didn't listen to any of the dialogue or dr. breen's speeches and just shot through the whole game

I played Half Life 2, and I paid attention to the lore. It is one of my favorite games. It's really not that deep. Entertaining? Yes. Complex? not particularly. Dystopia has been done much better. 

As far as the arguments that Mass Effect is derivative, of course it is. However, as others have said, it borrows a lot but executes much better than most other space opera out there. Plus, Mass Effect allows you to interact and leave your own mark on the universe, which is an inherent advantage of the medium and for me, that makes Mass Effect one of the most interesting science-fiction universes.

Modifié par kjs7, 03 février 2010 - 03:38 .

[KilrB]

Evil Johnny 666 wrote...

KilrB wrote...

BonsaiTreee wrote...

name some more good sci fi reads if it suits you anyone.

How about most anything by Lary Niven, from whom MS stole the "Ringworld" for Halo?

Ok, ok I'm an Halo fan, but that statement is just plain wrong.

1st. That would be Bungie, not MS as Halo was first supposed to be released on Mac and they clearly did not made up all the story.

2nd. Have you read some Iain M. Banks book? Another reknown sci-fi author? What about the Culture books? What do you think are orbitals?

3rd. Besides, the Ringworld was designed around the dyson sphere concept, an idea that was looked upon a lot by sci-fi authors which made the ringworld and orbitals.

4th. The Bungie creators are big science fiction fans and Halo is nothing more than a tribute to their favourite sci-fi works, another reason why I like the series so much. There's the military idea (and look) of Aliens and the Halos look being a LOT influenced by the Orbitals. I don't remember (because they said they were inspired by those sci-fi works) if they were inspired by Ringworld or Consider Phlebas but the Halos are a lot more akin in size and design to the Orbitals (they don't have shadow squares as much as I know). There's also an obvious Ender's Game influence with the spartans and flame me as much as you like, I prefer the military idea of spartans, super-soldiers than the more... "super-hero" idea of the kids in Ender's Game. I think they also stated being influenced by Dune and some others I don't remember. The flood also highly remembered me of other creatures, but I can't quite remember. Maybe the zerg because of the Overmind/Gravemind? Anyway. It's just an interpretation of some of their favourite sci-fi elements and concepts.

PS: I read Ringworld and it some awesome piece of hardcore science fiction. Though you must admit Larry Niven got better in his writing skills with The Ringworld Engineers.

1. Point taken.

2. Immaterial, Niven wrote "Ringworld" 17 years before Banks copied him.

3. Niven stated from the beginning that his Ringworld concept was an extension of Freeman Dyson's. However, while the concept of using a sphere was not originated by Dyson, Niven was apparently the first to realize that you didn't need an encompassing sphere if you took energy consumption out of the equation.

4. As Niven was asked, but declined, to write at least the first of the "Halo" novels I think it's pretty clear where Bungie got the idea.

"Stole" was a poor choice on my part, I should have said "copied" or "borrowed" ... if they gave Niven credit. If not then they did "steal" it. I've no idea whether they acknowledged him or not.

I've nothing against "Halo" or it's players/fans, I just never could get into it myself though I did try. It just didn't seem to port very well to the PC IMO.

The Herbert's "Dune" is another very good work. Thank you for bringing it up.

I was sceptical that Frank's son could do it but I think the new series is as good or better.

EDIT:

Let's not overlook Niven's best contributions to SF:

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Niven's_Laws

http://www.larrynive...f_Kleenex.shtml

Modifié par KilrB, 04 février 2010 - 05:40 .

[Clumsy Ninja]

I agree that Mass Effect it a superbly realized sci-fi world, but I still think Dune is better. (I'll have to check out 'the Lensman'.

[A Killing Sound]

Lensman is a hard series of books to track down, so good luck!

[Akee_90]

I actually read and enjoyed reading and learning stuff from the Codex in both games. Usually I just ****** on and disregard the lore in games, but In ME I really love the whole setting and learning about the galaxy, it's history and it's races.

[Evil Johnny 666]

KilrB wrote...


1. Point taken.

2. Immaterial, Niven wrote "Ringworld" 17 years before Banks copied him.

3. Niven stated from the beginning that his Ringworld concept was an extension of Freeman Dyson's. However, while the concept of using a sphere was not originated by Dyson, Niven was apparently the first to realize that you didn't need an encompassing sphere if you took energy consumption out of the equation.

4. As Niven was asked, but declined, to write at least the first of the "Halo" novels I think it's pretty clear where Bungie got the idea.

"Stole" was a poor choice on my part, I should have said "copied" or "borrowed" ... if they gave Niven credit. If not then they did "steal" it. I've no idea whether they acknowledged him or not.

I've nothing against "Halo" or it's players/fans, I just never could get into it myself though I did try. It just didn't seem to port very well to the PC IMO.

The Herbert's "Dune" is another very good work. Thank you for bringing it up.

I was sceptical that Frank's son could do it but I think the new series is as good or better.

EDIT:

Let's not overlook Niven's best contributions to SF:

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Niven's_Laws

http://www.larrynive...f_Kleenex.shtml

Yeah, I was a bit mistaken about Niven or Banks being the first. But I remember reading an article where some Bungie guys basically aknowledged several sci-fi works as big influences for Halo. As I remember they were those I stated.

But yeah, Niven's awesome. I should really finish the Ringworld series one day, the universe is just so well done. There should be video-games about Known Space, the Kzin would be formidable foes/characters.

[jmr1415]

Cant help laughing at the concept that the Lensman series is good science fiction, or good literature. It's perhaps the most over the top and unintentionally funny series of its type. The writing is hilariously bad in places and the philosophy and inherent contradictions through the scope of Smith's space opera jumbled. What it has going for it is a comic book appeal of ever greater weapons and powers in massive conflict.

It's true that there are some ideas in Lensman series which find their way into Mass Effect, the Specters are not unlike the Lensman in their extra-legal powers, and the mass effect drive seems pretty similar in theory to the inertialess drive of Smith's universe. However Mass Effect doesn't have the complete insanities that afflict the Lensman books. (case in point for fans: consider Kinnison's enslavement of sentient race by use of drugs in Galactic Patrol when we see an absolute condemnation of the use of any form of recreational drugs throughout the series.)

[Kavva]

@OP totaly agree Bioware must have been using some Reapers indoctrination metods on me, becouse i cant think of anything else then ME ;p

[A Killing Sound]

jmr1415 wrote...

Cant help laughing at the concept that the Lensman series is good science fiction, or good literature. It's perhaps the most over the top and unintentionally funny series of its type. The writing is hilariously bad in places and the philosophy and inherent contradictions through the scope of Smith's space opera jumbled. What it has going for it is a comic book appeal of ever greater weapons and powers in massive conflict.
It's true that there are some ideas in Lensman series which find their way into Mass Effect, the Specters are not unlike the Lensman in their extra-legal powers, and the mass effect drive seems pretty similar in theory to the inertialess drive of Smith's universe. However Mass Effect doesn't have the complete insanities that afflict the Lensman books. (case in point for fans: consider Kinnison's enslavement of sentient race by use of drugs in Galactic Patrol when we see an absolute condemnation of the use of any form of recreational drugs throughout the series.)

I said I was a fan, I never said it was the most intelligent thing I've ever read.  I do agree with your points.  I just found some of the similiarites interesting.

[Mr.Skar]

In terms of books, there are a ton of great sci-fi out there that I feel are better than ME2. Even in the Space Opera department. Scott Westerfeld has a 2 book series that has some truly awesome ideas (microships, drone combat in space, and one of the coolest space battles I've ever read). Don't get me wrong I dig the world, and I'm sure we'll be seeing hints of ME for awhile now, but it won't be the end all of new sci-fi.

[elmephd1]

Ah Halo. After hearing Halo fanboys go on and on about it's "revolutionary" sci-fi storyline I decided to buy it. Instead all I got was a bloke doing a Clint Eastwood impression, a few lines of dialogue, a few aliens crying "it's the chief!" and some starships. Perhaps revolutionary for an FPS.

As for TV related sci-fi, Mass Effect is certainly much better then a lot of the stuff we got these last 10 years.

Some sci-fi does get horribly dated though. After considerable recommendations I watched "Demon with a Glass Hand" and "Soldier" by Harlan Ellison. Not space opera I know, but some of the plot holes and logic would get looked down upon in a Saturday morning cartoon. Still enjoyable, but nothing great.

Literature wise, there's far too much out there to build a decent picture. Personally speaking though I suspect present day science fiction has both characters and plot that's superior to Mass Effect. At least I hope it does, characterisation is something that's supposed to be improving.