65 réponses à ce sujet

[SusanStoHelit]

errant_knight wrote...

I didn't have to make the choice with Conner, but if I'd had to, I think I would have killed him rather than let Jowan use blood magic, even with a willing victim. Allowing it would be giving tacit approval. More evil is just a bad way to deal with evil. In retrospect, I'm not at all sure that there isn't something a little hinky with Conner. Given his mother's religious nature, and having received at least some mage training from Jowan, Conner wasn't completely ignorant as to the implications of dealing with a demon. He's not that young. In the epilogue ending where Conner goes to Tevinter to study the fade, I'm always deeply unsettled. I have a real bad feeling about that--about Conner in general, actually.

I feel very ambivalent about Connor.

I'm pretty sure that he knew that demons are bad, who wouldn't in that world? But did he know that he'd met a demon? He met it in the Fade after all, while he was asleep. He might have been deceived. And even if he did, I know that I sometimes make choices in my dreams that I never would in real life. Dreams, after all, deal with your subconscious wishes and desires (and fears) amongst other things - not with rational choices and logic.

On the other hand though, the child just doesn't seem quite 'right' even after you free him. I'll certainly agree with that. I kept expecting his head to spin around and for him to vomit - even after the demon was destroyed.

[DarthRomance]

If it looks and sounds like a cross between Alistair and Morrigan, I would be doing it a favor killing it. If it is mine then that is one less child support payment.

[Gracknug]

Well i tried to find a nonkillingconnor way to save connor, so it'd probably do the same to the Morrigan child... even if it wasnt mine.

[errant_knight]

SusanStoHelit wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

I didn't have to make the choice with Conner, but if I'd had to, I think I would have killed him rather than let Jowan use blood magic, even with a willing victim. Allowing it would be giving tacit approval. More evil is just a bad way to deal with evil. In retrospect, I'm not at all sure that there isn't something a little hinky with Conner. Given his mother's religious nature, and having received at least some mage training from Jowan, Conner wasn't completely ignorant as to the implications of dealing with a demon. He's not that young. In the epilogue ending where Conner goes to Tevinter to study the fade, I'm always deeply unsettled. I have a real bad feeling about that--about Conner in general, actually.

I feel very ambivalent about Connor.

I'm pretty sure that he knew that demons are bad, who wouldn't in that world? But did he know that he'd met a demon? He met it in the Fade after all, while he was asleep. He might have been deceived. And even if he did, I know that I sometimes make choices in my dreams that I never would in real life. Dreams, after all, deal with your subconscious wishes and desires (and fears) amongst other things - not with rational choices and logic.

On the other hand though, the child just doesn't seem quite 'right' even after you free him. I'll certainly agree with that. I kept expecting his head to spin around and for him to vomit - even after the demon was destroyed.

Do we know for sure that's how he came in contact with the demon? Isn't that just speculation? I don't think Conner tells us, so I'm not sure we can take that as fact. We'll never know, but I have a hard time taking anything about Conner at face value.

[SusanStoHelit]

errant_knight wrote...

Do we know for sure that's how he came in contact with the demon? Isn't that just speculation? I don't think Conner tells us, so I'm not sure we can take that as fact. We'll never know, but I have a hard time taking anything about Conner at face value.

I think it's pretty true. Jowan tells us, but by that point he's not trying to lie about anything. And anyway, that's why we can go into the Fade and destroy the demon there. It didn't approach him in the real world.

[Gracknug]

Even if he did know exactly what he was doing can you blame him? He only wanted to save his father and he needed more power for that.



And you cant be sure he knew what a demon was, he's been living a sheltered life with no need to know what demons are, and with a mother like Isolde i doubt she ever tells him something bad, i mean she even refused to tell anyone what was going on inside the castle in fear that anything would happend to him.

[errant_knight]

SusanStoHelit wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Do we know for sure that's how he came in contact with the demon? Isn't that just speculation? I don't think Conner tells us, so I'm not sure we can take that as fact. We'll never know, but I have a hard time taking anything about Conner at face value.

I think it's pretty true. Jowan tells us, but by that point he's not trying to lie about anything. And anyway, that's why we can go into the Fade and destroy the demon there. It didn't approach him in the real world.

But how would Jowan know for sure? I'm not doubting that Conner met the demon in the fade, I'm just not entirely convinced that he didn't do it on purpose. Admittedly, the dream thing is most likely given his lack of training, but still...

Gracknug wrote...

Even if he did know exactly what he was doing can you blame him? He only wanted to save his father and he needed more power for that.

And you cant be sure he knew what a demon was, he's been living a sheltered life with no need to know what demons are, and with a mother like Isolde i doubt she ever tells him something bad, i mean she even refused to tell anyone what was going on inside the castle in fear that anything would happend to him.

He lives in Fereldan where the dangers of magic, abominations, and demons are part of regular conversation. He couldn't know what a templar is without knowing, and he couldn't come in contact with the chantry without knowing about templars. Isolde doesn't have to tell him anything at all, the castle is full of people, and he goes to the chantry--his mom is religious. No way he doesn't know.

And you bet I can blame him if he did it on purpose. Everyone has reasons to want power, some altruistic. That doesn't make it okay to deal with demons to get it.

Modifié par errant_knight, 02 février 2010 - 07:02 .

[Mistersunshine]

It's a threat because of who its mother is. SHE'S a threat. I've been barely keeping her in line all this time, but now she's going to wander off alone, unsupervised, with Flemeth's grimoire and a demon-god-baby to use, mold, or tap for fiendish power as she wills?



I'd kill Morrigan after the archdemon fell, because I KNOW the woman. She's a power-hungry sociopath with absolutely no moral compass, and I've now just removed any obstacle to her unchecked acquisition of power. If I let her walk, I'm pretty much responsible for whatever horrible stuff she (and her demon-god-baby) get up to in the future.



That's like saying, "Well, I sold this nuclear bomb to some really angry religious extremists, but hey, I don't know if they're going to do anything bad with it!"



It doesn't matter whether the ritual made the baby inherently evil. It's who the baby is in the custody of that's the real cause for alarm.

[Thor Rand Al]

errant_knight wrote...

Do we know for sure that's how he came in contact with the demon? Isn't that just speculation? I don't think Conner tells us, so I'm not sure we can take that as fact. We'll never know, but I have a hard time taking anything about Conner at face value.

Jowan says he's not sure when you ask him if Conner could have summoned the Demon, he could have but he's not sure... After you come to a decision on what to do with Conner (mines always the mage tower) you can go upstairs n talk to Conner n he does say after Jowan was thrown in jail he snuck into Jowans room n read his books also Conner does say the demon came to him when he was sleeping...
If Conner knew that was a demon who knows, but reading some of the other posts on here I'm reminded of that bewitched templer on the last floor of the tower before you meet the sloth demon, (you have a choice whether to let the demon have the templar or you end up killing him)... Same thing happened to Conner, the demon was able to filter through Conners mind n found his fear of losing his father n ensnared Conner that way...


Edit:

Modifié par Thor Rand Al, 02 février 2010 - 07:35 .

[errant_knight]

Thor Rand Al wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Do we know for sure that's how he came in contact with the demon? Isn't that just speculation? I don't think Conner tells us, so I'm not sure we can take that as fact. We'll never know, but I have a hard time taking anything about Conner at face value.

Jowan says he's not sure when you ask him if Conner could have summoned the Demon, he could have but he's not sure... Conner does say after Jowan was thrown in jail he snuck into Jowans room n read his books also Conner does say the demon came to him when he was sleeping...
If Conner knew that was a demon who knows, but reading some of the other posts on here I'm reminded of that bewitched templer on the last floor of the tower before you meet the sloth demon, (you have a choice whether to let the demon have the templar or you end up killing him)... Same thing happened to Conner, the demon was able to filter through Conners mind n found his fear of losing his father n ensnared Conner that way...

That's certainly possible. I'd have an easier time believing it if Conner didn't seem so very creepy, though.

[Thor Rand Al]

errant_knight wrote...

Thor Rand Al wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Do we know for sure that's how he came in contact with the demon? Isn't that just speculation? I don't think Conner tells us, so I'm not sure we can take that as fact. We'll never know, but I have a hard time taking anything about Conner at face value.

Jowan says he's not sure when you ask him if Conner could have summoned the Demon, he could have but he's not sure... Conner does say after Jowan was thrown in jail he snuck into Jowans room n read his books also Conner does say the demon came to him when he was sleeping...
If Conner knew that was a demon who knows, but reading some of the other posts on here I'm reminded of that bewitched templer on the last floor of the tower before you meet the sloth demon, (you have a choice whether to let the demon have the templar or you end up killing him)... Same thing happened to Conner, the demon was able to filter through Conners mind n found his fear of losing his father n ensnared Conner that way...

That's certainly possible. I'd have an easier time believing it if Conner didn't seem so very creepy, though.

Look who his mom is lol... That was mean sorry lmao

[TheLion36]

Well considering that my character is head over heels with Morrigan it would depend on her... How she reacts. I'm sure if he had to decide between Morrigan and the faith of the world that the world would lose... So if Morrigan wants the kid alive he would spare it at all costs...
If Morrigan however approves of killing the baby (say for example that she didn't anticipate the child becoming evil or that it went out of her control) then he would look for alternatives and if there are none he would take the childs life even though its his own child...

My other character romanced Leilana and only considers Morrigan a really close friend, so he would go out of his way to find alternatives and even try to convince Morrigan what must be done but he would do what is best for the world in the end.

Modifié par TheLion36, 02 février 2010 - 07:49 .

[blademaster7]

If it comes down to that I would be absolutely disgusted. I couldn't even kill Connor when I was playing as an evil character let alone the child of my character...



For me, it would be ALT+F4.



But knowing Bioware they will probably cook up a situation where someone must be sacrificed again and you get to choose between yourself, Morrigan and the child. I'm taking bets on it right now...

[Behindyounow]

I'd be able to and more than willing to kill Morrigan, thats for sure.

[Chas1024]

Is it voiced by Claudia Black? In which case it lives. If by Tim Curry then it dies.

[SusanStoHelit]

Chas1024 wrote...

Is it voiced by Claudia Black? In which case it lives. If by Tim Curry then it dies.

Rofl.

[melkathi]

Chas1024 wrote...

Is it voiced by Claudia Black? In which case it lives. If by Tim Curry then it dies.

At least for the male players.

If it's a he and voiced by Alistair's VO, then the Alistair FanGirl Brigade though will deffinitly not kill him

[_Aine_]

errant_knight wrote...

It depends entirely on what/who the child turns out to be. There's nothing intrinsically evil about an old god, as far as we know. I'm actually wondering why the darkspawn seek them out, exactly. Perhaps they want to corrupt them because, untainted, they could be a force for good. We just don't know. We know nothing about the old gods or the darkspawn's goals. I'm not much for killing things because they might be a problem. By that reasoning, all humans should be killed at birth. I'd have to see some real evidence before I'd even think about it..

I have been pondering this myself.  

What I think....and its a big bigh *think*... is that perhaps its like a compulsion for them. They are creatures of darkness, living underground. The have no lives or purpose that we are aware of. Yet they hear the calling of the old gods. They don't know where they are but they hear the old god, like a distant melody.  To a rather primitive being that must be hauntingly beautiful, a compulsion to get closer to it. To seek it out.   Maybe to them, dark somewhat archaic primitive creatures, the power of the old god is so pure and clean a calling to them, that they are simply seeking the only Light they have ever known.      Like flying into the sun.  

I think ( again, *think*) that an old god itself is not *evil*  --- but you have just basically baited a trap for the darkspawn to now be lured to THIS child, yours, alistair, or some other wardens kid with Morrigan, who whether to try to destroy the world or save the world with this old god, has take a VERY big chance because she has to know ( because she seems to know much about the process through Flemeth) that it will become the next Blight once they find and possess the spirit of the child, or however that works.  

Is this the last soul of the old god?  Then you might have to kill it to end the dark spawn always heading to the surface i don't know... Is it as black and white as old god / darkspawn... i don't know that either.  Makes for interesting breakfast thinking  though.  

[TheLion36]

shantisands wrote...
Is this the last soul of the old god?  Then you might have to kill it to end the dark spawn always heading to the surface i don't know... Is it as black and white as old god / darkspawn... i don't know that either.  Makes for interesting breakfast thinking  though.  

I believe I read somewhere there where 7 old gods, there where 4 blights prior to the game and we end a blight so without counting Morrigans baby's soul that leaves 2 other old gods the darkspawn could go after as well... I DO however believe something will go after Morrigans baby at some point in the story, when however and if the kid will still be a baby then remains a question... There's also the Architect who apparantly hunts after old gods as well, so who knows what this means for Morrigan in the expansion (or future expansions)...

I also agree with you in your thinking that an old god doesn't have to be evil.
I've also wondered if the reason Morrigan leaves you and tells you not to follow her is because the darkspawn can also sense you, perhaps you and the call of the old gods soul within the baby might be too big a pull for the darkspawn...

Modifié par TheLion36, 02 février 2010 - 03:44 .

[Eudaemonium]

As I generally play female characters, the child is Alistair's - and I always tell him the truth about it, so he knows its out there. That said, my female characters nearly always became fairly close to Morrigan, and for all her faults they felt she was being fairly sincere there. Not wholly sincere, of course, but fairly. Her 'there are some things in this world worth saving' and 'this means... everything to me. you cannot know...' touched something of a heartstring. I don't think any of my characters could kill the child unless forced.

I think it would be interesting regarding whether or not the darkspawn would seek it out. I gathered from Morrigan's little fire-side chat that she wants to raise an old god, not an archdemon. And given her utter hated of the Chantry, she probably wants to bring back the Old Gods. Urthemiel was the god of beauty after all, it kind of fits Morrigan's nature: that semi-serene, savage beauty of nature. Nonetheless, the thought that she and her child might be perpetually on-the-run from legions of darkspawn is an interesting thought.

BTW, is there actually *anything* to confirm that the Archdemon was actually an old god and not just some random corrupted dragon that was hibernating underground? The whole Archdemon = Old God thing is in the in-game lore, but for all intents and purposes it could just be legend, like where the darkspawn really come from (which is also unknown). Morrigan says its an old god, but she can't really know that. It might just be what she was told.

[SurelyForth]

Eudaemonium wrote...
BTW, is there actually *anything* to confirm that the Archdemon was actually an old god and not just some random corrupted dragon that was hibernating underground? The whole Archdemon = Old God thing is in the in-game lore, but for all intents and purposes it could just be legend, like where the darkspawn really come from (which is also unknown). Morrigan says its an old god, but she can't really know that. It might just be what she was told.

I think it must be something along those lines, otherwise it's just a dragon, right?  Not to get into a whole "do animals have souls?" debate but...would a standard-issue high dragon have a soul that could be corrupted, much less one that is strong enough to exist in other bodies?

Modifié par SurelyForth, 02 février 2010 - 04:46 .

[TheLion36]

Eudaemonium wrote...
BTW, is there actually *anything* to confirm that the Archdemon was actually an old god and not just some random corrupted dragon that was hibernating underground? The whole Archdemon = Old God thing is in the in-game lore, but for all intents and purposes it could just be legend, like where the darkspawn really come from (which is also unknown). Morrigan says its an old god, but she can't really know that. It might just be what she was told.

I think the articles on the wiki state that it is common belief among scholars, which of course doesn't proof anything. I also read that the Architect stated he would kill all old gods before they become archdemons in return for something (not sure if he got it and actually started with it), however he might just call them old gods for lack of the correct term or because someone told him.

I doubt it can be a normal dragon because we can kill the dragon near the sacred ashes without losing anyone and without seeing the soul attempting to enter someone, however that is not an archdemon and it might actually have something to do with the taint that the soul moves on...

So basically we do not know for sure... For now I think all we can do is assume it is true... But you do make an interesting point, what if it is not an old gods soul that is now inside Morrigans child... 

Modifié par TheLion36, 02 février 2010 - 05:43 .

[Raphael diSanto]

melkathi wrote...

Chas1024 wrote...

Is it voiced by Claudia Black? In which case it lives. If by Tim Curry then it dies.

At least for the male players.

If it's a he and voiced by Alistair's VO, then the Alistair FanGirl Brigade though will deffinitly not kill him

Well, for anyone who hasn't seen Steve Valentine in Crossing Jordan... You're missing out.

[Creature 1]

errant_knight wrote...
Yes. I saw the 'hypothetical', but I felt like going into more detail as to my thinking, so I did. That's not really a big deal, is it? I think I answered the question. Whether I killed it or not would have to depend on whether it was evil, therefore, in your scenario where it was necessary for unknown reasons, presumably that it is evil, I would kill it, but not without running it by Alistair first to make sure I wasn't jumping to conclusions, or missing something. Well, and out of common decency. It is his god-child. Alistair isn't wrong about Redcliff. Neither Connor or Isolde have to die. If you kill them, you went for quick/easy without looking at all the options. Reasons can be found for that, but it makes sense that it pisses him off. These people are the only family he has and Alistair feel VERY strongly about family.

I don't think it's quick and easy, I think it's the only sensible route.  Connor's managed to almost destroy Redcliffe in a matter of days, if you go sauntering off to the Circle he then has probably between a week and two weeks to rampage unchecked.  The realistic outcome would be to return to find Redcliffe in ruins, everyone dead (including the Alr), and Connor run off in search of new people to torment. 

[errant_knight]

Raphael diSanto wrote...

melkathi wrote...

Chas1024 wrote...

Is it voiced by Claudia Black? In which case it lives. If by Tim Curry then it dies.

At least for the male players.

If it's a he and voiced by Alistair's VO, then the Alistair FanGirl Brigade though will deffinitly not kill him

Well, for anyone who hasn't seen Steve Valentine in Crossing Jordan... You're missing out.

Agreed, he's an excellent actor, and his character was actually a more interesting one than the lead.

Creature 1 wrote...

errant_knight wrote...
Yes. I saw the 'hypothetical', but I felt like going into more detail as to my thinking, so I did. That's not really a big deal, is it? I think I answered the question. Whether I killed it or not would have to depend on whether it was evil, therefore, in your scenario where it was necessary for unknown reasons, presumably that it is evil, I would kill it, but not without running it by Alistair first to make sure I wasn't jumping to conclusions, or missing something. Well, and out of common decency. It is his god-child. Alistair isn't wrong about Redcliff. Neither Connor or Isolde have to die. If you kill them, you went for quick/easy without looking at all the options. Reasons can be found for that, but it makes sense that it pisses him off. These people are the only family he has and Alistair feel VERY strongly about family.

I don't think it's quick and easy, I think it's the only sensible route.  Connor's managed to almost destroy Redcliffe in a matter of days, if you go sauntering off to the Circle he then has probably between a week and two weeks to rampage unchecked.  The realistic outcome would be to return to find Redcliffe in ruins, everyone dead (including the Alr), and Connor run off in search of new people to torment. 

We'll have to agree to disagree. If I have an option besides 'kill a child' or 'use blood magic', I have to try it, and the tower is close by. Killing a child has to be a last resort and, again for me, human sacrifice is absolutely not an option.

Modifié par errant_knight, 02 février 2010 - 06:07 .