132 réponses à ce sujet

[vhatever]

Makoto SFG wrote...

vhatever wrote...

I must have read your psot wrong, Unelss it was changed. I thought you had vanguard above engineer and adept. But when I look now it only shows vanguard over adept. Which I still don't agree with,.

If you are a really good/smart player, adept can be better than engineer. The engeer "tops out" at a lower power level than adept, I guess I'm trying to say, but for most players the engineer is a bit better and safer and a big ZzzZz on insanity.

You're a fool. 

The OP gave a well-thought-out analysis of his preferred classes for beating an insanity run, and you come in and accuse him of lying?  All the while managing to sound like an illiterate 14-year-old know-it-all punk?

With your logic, I can jump in and say "no ur dumb for not putting Vangard furst cuz I did beat insane w/ him like 3 times, cuz vangard rockz.  u obviously don't know nuthing".

Just what exactly were you hoping to achieve with this??  That you're better than the OP and YOU'RE the authority on the best classes for insanity??  I didn't see YOU creating a post.

God damn.  ****ing kids.

/breathes deeply

http://social.biowar...890835/1#890956

Boy don't you look stupid.

[Fredericol]

Just as a fyi: Some mobs DO see through the infiltrator cloak... also you can get hit



Those that I know of are the big fat mech bots... they keep the heat on you cloaked or not.

[PinkMonkey35]

sentinel ftw, but no mention of armor piercing ammo? or warp ammo? what are you're thoughts on that? sentinel with sniper, simply orgasmic.

[Roxlimn]

Don't know about Insanity, but peeps who say that Adept is bad at Hardcore can't be using the class right. It's pretty okay. I'm partial to classes that have inherent ammo skills - Neither Adept nor Sentinel have any, so have to settle with Warp, and at low skill levels, Warp doesn't cut it. The damage is downright bad.



Still, with only one slot for getting ammo, it's the only real option unless you change around Advanced Training from mission to mission. That might not be a bad idea, actually.



On Hardcore and lower difficulty settings, I found Pull very useful for dealing with enemies who don't have defenses, but are hunkering down in cover. Those guys still have cover, and it can be frustrating to get to them using only an SMG and a pistol. Throw is great against krogan - it functions a lot like Concussive Shot, actually. Putting one point in Throw and Pull is certainly worth a second level anywhere else, and half the investment for getting one skill to ultimate.



That said, I didn't find higher levels of Pull and Throw convincingly good, since the base powers already do most of what's necessary. I think that allowing the top tier of Pull to work on single enemies without Shields would be in-theme and a good power. HIgher levels of Throw probably need to start affecting enemies with defenses. Level 2 working against Armor, then 3 against Barriers, and 4 against Shields would be great. The thing with Throw is that it doesn't work against enemies who have cover, and that restricts its usefulness.

[MANoob]

Tbh you can't rank classes this way simply because ranks would be different depending on your ranking criteria.

For instance, imo engineer would be one of the most powerful classes if you rank them by their ability to play without reloads, folowed by sentinel and infiltrator, while vanguard being the suckiest in this case.

If you rank them by their ability to dish out damage then probably OP's ranking is rather accurate (but soldier should probably be higher than infiltrator).

Finally, If you rank them by 'fun factor'... Well, thats rather subjective. I for one find beating krogans with my bare hands on insanity as a sentinel fun.

Roxlimn wrote...
Still, with only one slot for getting ammo, it's the only real option

You can have sqad ammo from one of the NPCs without spending any points yourself, you know

Modifié par MANoob, 03 février 2010 - 09:06 .

[vhatever]

You are right manoob, that's why I put the classes in a tier system. There are certain portions of the game Soldier is the best overall class, the sentinel, etc. For instance, the sentinel is one of the weaker "better" classes at the beginning of the game. They have to "fill out" to be really good, while soldier and infiltrator are great right ouf ot eh box. But when you start a new game+ the sentinel is far better than the other classes for the first entire half of the game.



http://social.biowar...890835/1#890956

[Hiero Glyph]

Roxlimn wrote...

That said, I didn't find higher levels of Pull and Throw convincingly good, since the base powers already do most of what's necessary. I think that allowing the top tier of Pull to work on single enemies without Shields would be in-theme and a good power. HIgher levels of Throw probably need to start affecting enemies with defenses. Level 2 working against Armor, then 3 against Barriers, and 4 against Shields would be great. The thing with Throw is that it doesn't work against enemies who have cover, and that restricts its usefulness.

Yeah, I do not understand why the powers do not evolve as you level them instead of simply giving you bonus damage and such.  Some skills are basically one point wonders because of this.  Ammo is the worst culprit of this issue as there are six (!) different types of ammo skills in ME2, not counting the normal bullet effect.  At most there should be four as Incendiary and Armor Piercing are quite redundant along with Shredder Ammo.

To me, there should be Disruptor, Incendiary, Warp and Cryo.  Disruptor covers shields, synthetics and a weapon overheat bonus.  Incendiary covers armor, organics and a health regen cancel/DoT bonus.  Warp covers barriers, armor and has a technic damage bonus.  Cryo is simply the wildcard and could even possibly be removed.

Anyway, the 'streamlined' style of ME2 has made most of the skills seem quite bland.  The final evolution of the skill should be the one that boosts the damage while the previous three points should provide additional bonuses.

[Vasja1st]

Soldier for life, it has enything you need to destroy any kind of enemy. and one more thing, use concusive shot all the time, a good way to keep more term.clips in ya poket.

[MANoob]

Vasja1st wrote...
 it has enything you need to destroy any kind of enemy. .

Any class can beat any enemy :/

[vhatever]

Concusive shot is a really bad skill for a soldier on hardcore or better. Absolutely low priority for a soldier.



we really need to start having people put what difficulty level they play at in their avatars or something.

[Tony_Knightcrawler]

*Thinks Neural Shock should work through armor* It's supposed to be used to disable a dangerous target. A foe with no shields, barrier, or armor is not especially dangerous, and could be quickly killed using incinerate and a few bullets.

Modifié par Tony_Knightcrawler, 03 février 2010 - 10:51 .

[Flash_in_the_flesh]

Guys, you think that removing shared cooldown would balance classes? Soldier would still do what it's good at -> shoot but adept, engi would be able to finish enemies with skills. Am I correct?

I'm asking because it's easy to mod the game to remove shared cooldown.

Modifié par Flash_in_the_flesh, 03 février 2010 - 10:58 .

[Kadreal]

Charging a rear enemy with vanguard can work, and give you a good firing position. Until 4 more enemies come in the back door right behind you and instantly gun you down. That and the inability to charge enemy in 'restricted' areas can be frustrating.



I think the shared cooldowns really hurts a lot of the TECH and biotic classes, it doesn't help that engineer is the only class that doesn't get it's own unique skill such as cloak or charge.



The scaling does seem a bit off. Where a gun focused class such as infiltrator or solider only has to worry about increased damage and more health to chew through, biotics and tech have to deal with new defenses that really throw a wrench into a lot of their abilities. It just doesn't work for a seamless scale across the classes. As someone said, the defenses shouldn't change, they should just be stronger.

[D4rk50ul808]

Played through once with Infiltrator, once with Sentinel, and now with Vanguard. Of those three this is what I would say.



Infiltrator breaks the game in a way. If you want little to no challenge just memorize the timing on you r cloak and grab the widow rifle. The only time I really felt challenged is when I ran out of ammo or was swarmed by husks/varren.



Sentinel is pretty boring. Sure you have all those great powers but you basically throw debuffs the entire time until you get to the red bar and then snipe them with your pistol/smg. If you don't pick a hard hitting bonus like Shotgun or Sniper you are in for a very long game.



Vanguard is the most challenging to play. You don't have the Infiltrators easy button, or the Sentinels ability to spam debuffs from a mile away. You need to be a bit more tactical with what you do. Separate enemies and pounce on them when they are near your next cover spot. I used all of my abilities as a Vanguard depending on the situation.



I'd rank the other ones but I cannot see how an Adept could be fun judging by how hard it would be. Soldiers are going to be great I'm sure, but if I wanted to just shoot things I'd go play a TPS. Engineer seems like I'd turtle way too much with him. I think it really comes down to play style, but Infiltrator HAS to be the easiest class to win with.

[Roxlimn]

vhatever:



I've been playing three classes concurrently on Hardcore. These are Sentinel, Adept, and Soldier. These are all with NG+ bonuses, natch, and all imported from Rich characters in ME1. I am not seeing your continued downgrading of powers Concussive Shot, Pull, Throw, and AI Hacking.



During the first half of the game, Throw is consistently excellent. Not all enemies have defenses, and of those that have defenses, few share the same ones. Overload is fantastic if your opponents have Shields, but on Tuchanka, it's nearly worthless. Enemies have much more potent firepower on the higher levels. Even enemies that don't have defenses pose a significant threat. Getting them down with Throw is great. You can solo krogans face to face using an Adept if you have Throw. The cooldown just exactly matches the time for them to stand up. As long as you can get their Armor down quickly, having Throw finishes them off.



Without Throw, you have to fight krogan at close range with nothing but an SMG and a pistol. This is similarly true for the Sentinel. Your Tech Armor might save you if it blasts out, but it's one shot, and it takes a while for enemies to go down on Hardcore, even when their defenses are out.



Pull is fantastic against mooks. Shut down defenses with Overload, (from a team mate if you're Adept), then Pull and kill. Easy, quick. Works like clockwork. If your enemies have Armor instead, use Incinerate, then Pull. This is even quicker if you have Warp. Overload, Pull, then Warp - great damage.



The Sentinel's Tech Armor is cute and everything, but as far as I can tell, at Hardcore, it's mostly just cosmetic. You die fast when you get in the line of fire, with or without Tech Armor. Cover is still the best and most-used defense.



Soldier is the easiest of the three so far for me. Engage at long range with Adrenaline Rush and headshot everything to death. It's hardly more difficult than Normal - Normal just goes faster. I'm having the most trouble with Sentinel. Without Pull, dealing with mooks and heavies under cover can get troublesome, and you don't have long range weapons to deal death from a safe distance. Sometimes, you can get flanked and then even your Tech Armor won't save you.



Haven't tried Vanguard yet. I can see where Charge can be a problem on Hardcore and Insanity. On Normal, you just Charge everywhere and mangle everything, no problem. On Hardcore, you can't just charge into the face of a Blue Suns Commander - he'll murder you.

[Mordigan]

Kadreal wrote...

Charging a rear enemy with vanguard can work, and give you a good firing position. Until 4 more enemies come in the back door right behind you and instantly gun you down. That and the inability to charge enemy in 'restricted' areas can be frustrating. 

Come on, you act as if there are no walls or enclosed spaces in ME2..  You can charge an enemy at the very rear, and not have to worry about them sneaking up on you because there's a wall behind you.

[Mordigan]

Roxlimn wrote...

On Hardcore, you can't just charge into the face of a Blue Suns Commander - he'll murder you.

You can charge a Blue Suns Commander on hardcore, and survive easily......especially if you have the Claymore shotgun, and melee upgrades..  Having champion as a passive skill also helps, due to lower cooldown times..

You charge him, blast him repeatedly with your shotgun to get rid of his defenses, melee him once or twice, then finish him off with another charge.

The Claymore shotgun with inferno ammo usually takes about 2 shots to destroy both shields and armor and remove a significant portion of health, but if you're playing on hardcore, you should already have gotten rid of most of his defenses before charging.

Modifié par Mordigan, 03 février 2010 - 07:33 .

[vhatever]

Roxlimn wrote...

vhatever:

I've been playing three classes concurrently on Hardcore. These are Sentinel, Adept, and Soldier. These are all with NG+ bonuses, natch, and all imported from Rich characters in ME1. I am not seeing your continued downgrading of powers Concussive Shot, Pull, Throw, and AI Hacking.

During the first half of the game, Throw is consistently excellent. Not all enemies have defenses, and of those that have defenses, few share the same ones. Overload is fantastic if your opponents have Shields, but on Tuchanka, it's nearly worthless. Enemies have much more potent firepower on the higher levels. Even enemies that don't have defenses pose a significant threat. Getting them down with Throw is great. You can solo krogans face to face using an Adept if you have Throw. The cooldown just exactly matches the time for them to stand up. As long as you can get their Armor down quickly, having Throw finishes them off.

Without Throw, you have to fight krogan at close range with nothing but an SMG and a pistol. This is similarly true for the Sentinel. Your Tech Armor might save you if it blasts out, but it's one shot, and it takes a while for enemies to go down on Hardcore, even when their defenses are out.

Pull is fantastic against mooks. Shut down defenses with Overload, (from a team mate if you're Adept), then Pull and kill. Easy, quick. Works like clockwork. If your enemies have Armor instead, use Incinerate, then Pull. This is even quicker if you have Warp. Overload, Pull, then Warp - great damage.

The Sentinel's Tech Armor is cute and everything, but as far as I can tell, at Hardcore, it's mostly just cosmetic. You die fast when you get in the line of fire, with or without Tech Armor. Cover is still the best and most-used defense.

Soldier is the easiest of the three so far for me. Engage at long range with Adrenaline Rush and headshot everything to death. It's hardly more difficult than Normal - Normal just goes faster. I'm having the most trouble with Sentinel. Without Pull, dealing with mooks and heavies under cover can get troublesome, and you don't have long range weapons to deal death from a safe distance. Sometimes, you can get flanked and then even your Tech Armor won't save you.

Haven't tried Vanguard yet. I can see where Charge can be a problem on Hardcore and Insanity. On Normal, you just Charge everywhere and mangle everything, no problem. On Hardcore, you can't just charge into the face of a Blue Suns Commander - he'll murder you.

If one throw kills a krogan in your game, it's pretty obvious you aren't playing on hardcore. Even if you freeze them and throw them against a wall with heavy throw you can't one throw kill a krogan. If you have a significant amount of enemies "without protection", it's also pretty obvious you aren't playing on hardcore. From what you write here, it seems you have confused veteran for hardcore, or, hell, it could be casual for all I know. What I do know, is most of what you have said is wrong on insanity.

You are clearly living in some fantasy world.

[Hiero Glyph]

Roxlimn wrote...

The Sentinel's Tech Armor is cute and everything, but as far as I can tell, at Hardcore, it's mostly just cosmetic. You die fast when you get in the line of fire, with or without Tech Armor. Cover is still the best and most-used defense.

Yeah, it appears that you are not playing on Harcore and Insanity if you cannot see how powerful Tech Armor is for the Sentinel.  If you get flanked or find yourself in a bad spot you will lose your Tech Armor, it will detonate and knock everything over, then you can reactivate it again and relocate.  It has saved me countless times and is much more than cosmetic.  Heck on Insanity you will lose ~50% of your boosted shield just using a single ability from behind cover.  Tech Armor (Power variant) is very useful, even on Harcore and especially on Insanity.

[AK118]

wow srsly i'd do the exact opposite of how you rated them.

[IzzQuad]

I have to disagree with your assessment on Cryo Rounds. They saved my *** soooo many times on Insanity and can combine really well with squad mates. Freeze a large group of husks in a line and Grunt will shatter them all with one charge. Freeze a larger enemy and have Miranda slam it to kill things without doing any damage to health. Miranda's slam is even more effective at higher levels when low ceilings are available, because enemies will actually shatter againt the ceiling.

[Cryo84]

All of this can be fixed if they just adjust how much defense enemies have vs their health amount.



More health, less defense = useful adepts.

[Roxlimn]

vhatever:



Not one Throw. One POINT in Throw. Altogether different. One point in Throw allows you to lock down krogan who don't have defenses. They don't stand a chance. There's no chance of mistake. If he loses armor, he's dead, very simply.



During the first half of the game not all the enemies have defenses. This is particularly true of the first mission and Freedom's Progress. If you don't believe me, then play it again and count. I assure you, they are there.



I don't know how Insanity plays like. It may be as you say. However, I won't say you're living in a fantasy world just because you don't share my observations.



Heiro Glyph:



I don't often find myself flanked, and when I did, Tech Armor did not save me. Generally, when I'm getting swamped, I'm using powers, so reactivating Tech Armor is a lose-lose situation. Either lock out your powers for 12 seconds (which is a long time in combat), or lose your shields. It's not much help, in my experience.



Against a krogan in close range, Throw is better, because it locks down his offensive abilities, and it does allow you to get away. Tech Armor? Maybe, maybe not. It's not as good in that situation. Krogan are especially vulnerable to this as they rarely keep to cover. Warp-Warp-Incinerate to kill his armor, then Throw to lock him out until he's dead. Within 9 seconds, he's rendered ineffective. Very powerful. Of course, both Adept and Sentinel have this combo.



What the Sentinel does not have is Pull-Warp. Strip the defenses, Pull up, then Warp. It creates a 5 meter explosion that affects everything, defense or no. Very strong. Mooks are good for this as they usually get stripped of defenses with one or two applications of Overload or Warp. Use your mates, then set the explosion.



Again, don't take my word for it. Go ahead and try it out.



For my bonus power, I took Energy Drain. I find it strictly superior to Overload in most cases. Whereas Overload is more useful on synthetics, and locks out enemy fire for 6 seconds at higher levels, Energy Drain restores Shields on all levels. Better than Tech Armor + Capacitor Chest Plate.



In fact, I'm playing Sentinel and Adept very similarly. Overload/Warp/Throw on one, Energy Drain/Warp/Throw on the other. It's remarkably similar. On Sentinel, I get Tech Armor, too. On the other, I get Singularity and Pull. It's all good.



You can do the Pull/Warp trick on a Sentinel, too, if you take Jacob. I find myself doing that a lot, actually.

[Coughee Brotha]

I am playing as vanguard and soldier right now on insanity. Never charge into a group of enemies. Use tactics. for example. I charges the person the furthest away...killed him. now Im flanking and killing the enemies in the middle because I got behind them and my squad is taking them out from the front. Granted that I do charge less on insanity but not enough that I hardly use it. It was my main tactic against the scions

[pedal2metal]

T1l wrote...

Did Christina Norman ever give a reason for why all powers are on a shared cooldown?

Did anyone ever ask? It seems like a really odd design decision; but then again, a lot of the changes made in Mass Effect 2 don't make a lot of sense to me.

While I prefer the per-power cooldown myself, people are forgetting that cooldowns in ME1 were anywhere from 40-60 seconds.  So assume you have 4 powers each with a 40 second cooldown in ME1.  That averages out to a global cooldown of 10 seconds.  Most of the ME2 cooldowns are in the 6-12 second range.  So, on average, the results are the same in terms of average power-per-second usage results.

The issue is that it constrains the player to "on average" gameplay dynamics.  What this does is actually make the game harder in ME2 than ME1 (anyone who thinks Insanity on ME1 is harder than ME2 is smoking dope) as you can't spam 4 powers in quick succession to kill an enemy and/or group of enemies immediately before they ever pose a threat to you.  Now you can only do 1 power, wait a few seconds, another power, etc....

I don't like the idea of constraining the gamer but that was the overall idea I'm guessing to make the gameplay more challenging w/o sacrificing the average power-per-second formula.

I hope per-power cooldowns return for ME3 but then I can hear everyone whining about how easy Insanity is.  You can't have it both ways:  godlike powers & brutal difficulty.  It just doesn't work that way.  There are always engineering/design tradeoffs & ME2 has balanced things in a fresh way as compared to ME1.  I may like the ME1 system more but I can see the rationale behind the ME2 approach.

best regards,
Pedal2Metal