90 réponses à ce sujet

[ZennExile]

See context and misconception are fun.



@AuraofMana - you got so close but have the same issue as the other poster. You attempt to prove your perspective based on your perspective. It doesn't work out so well when you can't keep anything straight because your mind is filling in the gaps in context with whatever helps you come to terms with the idea or whatever supports your perspective.



Take a step back and look at the whole picture with some context and things should clear up a bit.



The original post I responded to was just a trollish attack on anyone who dared to disagree with the perspective of the person who posted it and you are trying to attack me for it based on something someone else didn't actually say but you thought for sure I must have said....



Do you see the problem here?

[KalosCast]

@olp33
Chillax, bro. I was using "all you mako whiners" as a general "all of the people who whined about the mako" I didn't even direct it at a single person in this thread. The scanning minigame is still drool-inducingly boring, espeically considering on replays of the game, you get 50k of every resource, which is roughly have of what you need to research every upgrade, and more than enough eezo... in a universe that already gives you about 40 times as many resources as you ned to get every upgrade.

Modifié par KalosCast, 02 février 2010 - 07:50 .

[ZennExile]

AuraofMana wrote...

ZennExile wrote...

AuraofMana wrote...

I assume quite a few things. But none of them are quite wrong because I assume in a general manner that allows for context to change the overall idea.

You didn't assume in a general manner. You assumed a specific type of inventory system and implied that because ME2's was not exactly that, it is not a RPG.

Did I?  Would you mind quoting me on that because I think I may have developed a split personality as I remember nothing about a post of that nature.

Nimander wrote...

I loved ME1.

I loved ME2 even more.

I'm
also pretty up on just about all types of RPGs. Saying that ME2 isn't
an RPG/is less an RPG is fallacious. I really wish people who say that
actually knew what the heck they were talking about. Again, as I've
said many times, there are RPGs out there -- real RPGs -- who have even
less in the way of fiddly bits than ME2. It's totally fine to say you
don't like it. That's cool, that's subjective opinion and personal
choice. But all these backhanded 'not really an RPG' or similar
statements just show a lack of knowledge on the subject matter.

Define RPG Elements for me.

Given your answer I can probably shed some light on your misconceptions.

Your stance on the fact that he is wrong implies that you believe that specific type of inventory system is required for the game to be considered a RPG.

1. OP wishes Bioware to make ME3 with more RPG elements after complaining about the "lack of one" in ME2, making ME2 not a RPG.
2. Nimander claims OP is wrong and knows nothing about what defines a RPG, implying that the lack of that specific type of inventory system does not mean ME2 is not a RPG.
3. You assume Nimander is wrong.  Thus, you are agreeing with OP in the stance that without that type of inventory system, ME2 lacks RPG elements and can be assumed it is not one.

1. You decided to focus on the inventory idea but that was only a small part of the overall thought.
2. Nimander simply attacked everyone who thinks ME2 is less an RPG than ME1.   There is no focus on inventory in what I responded to nor did I define what his "misconceptions" were or even remotely hint at what they were
3.  I don't assume he is wrong.  I assume his misconceptions have led to this attack based on his lack of supporting evidence and agressive posting style.  Which I am sure you will discover is 100% accurate when he begins posting again hoping that people forget about his public announcement of ignore.

You were saying?

Modifié par ZennExile, 02 février 2010 - 07:56 .

[Engared]

KalosCast wrote...

I will never forgive all you mako whiners. To anybody who's played a game with tanks in it before, it was not difficult in the slightest to drive, and the planet scanning mechanic is 35 different kinds of BOOOOOOOOOOOOORING. At least driving the Mako over barren landscapes meant that there was something other than an oscilloscope to hold your attention while you still dealt with a 99% empty planet, and there was the small chance that you'd run across something largely random and inconsequential... or a Thresher Maw.
The core gameplay itself is unchanged in the "main world" exploration, dialogue trees are still much more engaging than any other iteration, Bioware or otherwise, and I felt like the combat was much more engaging this time around. However, many powers not being an option until the enemy is stripped all the way down to just "Health" feels so pointless, by the time they're that low, they've already lost and are about to be torn to shreds by gunplay.
Overall, the game is an improvement, especially since the inventory system in the first game was so horrendous that I'm happy to see it go, but I feel like Bioware was too heavily focused on removing things that got poor reception instead of IMPROVING things that got poor reception... like the unexplored planets. In the first game, at least you knew that SOMETHING would happen, even if it was boring, by the virtue that the planet can be landed on. This time around, you know that even if there's something to actually do on the planet, you're going to be playing that godawful scanning game to even find it.

Agreed +1. But there is a vehicle being added in the DLC and future DLC (plus hopefully a post victory expansion) will add more depth to this game.

[ZennExile]

KalosCast wrote...

@olp33
Chillax, bro. I was using "all you mako whiners" as a general "all of the people who whined about the mako" I didn't even direct it at a single person in this thread. The scanning minigame is still drool-inducingly boring, espeically considering on replays of the game, you get 50k of every resource, which is roughly have of what you need to research every upgrade, and more than enough eezo... in a universe that already gives you about 40 times as many resources as you ned to get every upgrade.

This is one thing I really didn't like.  Even though they got rid of inventory and the credit excess all they did was replace it with a resource excess.  Some of the design decisions just don't seem to make sense when you pit them against the first Mass Effect.

[rumination888]

I like to throw all of my clothes into a pile on the floor because using drawers is just dumbing it down.
I like to use cold hard cash when I have to pay thousands of dollars for something because using a check is just dumbing it down.

[Solid N7]

rumination888 wrote...

I like to throw all of my clothes into a pile on the floor because using drawers is just dumbing it down.
I like to use cold hard cash when I have to pay thousands of dollars for something because using a check is just dumbing it down.

hahahaha :D

[ZennExile]

rumination888 wrote...

I like to throw all of my clothes into a pile on the floor because using drawers is just dumbing it down.
I like to use cold hard cash when I have to pay thousands of dollars for something because using a check is just dumbing it down.

You know focusing on the inventory thing was cute at first but now it's annoying.

ME2 is a dumbed down version of ME1 in "small" part due to the inventory system change because it took out the economy in the process.

But the main things that got dumbed down were encounter mechanics, exploration, and NPC interactions.

Focusing on the inventory and attacking the validity of the whole idea because the inventory system "isn't really dumbed down" is like dumbing yourself down to anyone who reads what you post... 

[olp33]

rumination888 wrote...

I like to throw all of my clothes into a pile on the floor because using drawers is just dumbing it down.
I like to use cold hard cash when I have to pay thousands of dollars for something because using a check is just dumbing it down.

You don't really get the point do you. I'd say that giving you 3 pairs of unique socks, shirts, and pants is dumbing it down from having 40.

[Rob E Coyote]

*WARNING, THIS POST WILL CONTAIN SOME SPOILERS*







I have to admit, even though I've really enjoyed ME2 and had a great time playing it, to me it suffers from the age old problem of sequelitis...it's not as good as the original.

Yes, there are a lot of improvements, but in many ways ME2 has actually been a step back.

Although I've heard many people say the enemies are a lot nastier in ME2, I actually found them a cakewalk compared to ME1. The only times I died were when I got too caught up in the fight to notice my shields were down and I was badly hurt (I played a soldier, when using Adrenaline Surge the screen goes red and you don't spot the red lines or heartbeat for being about to die...and with a very low cooldown, I use adrenaline surge a lot). This may be due to the fact the Party Member AI is a lot superior to ME1, but still, the enemies have been a lot less of a challenge than the first game. Krogan are not the complete monstrosities to be feared that they were in the first game, and Husks...well, shoot their legs and they are no real bother, and even if they swarm you, three taps of the melee key will sort them out (Less if you upgrade Shepards Strength).

And speaking of easier enemies. The end boss. in ME1, the end boss, Saren, was a definite challenge. That was a fraught fught, had me on the edge of my seat the whole time, watching for any little advantage I could take. Saren was quick, nasty, difficult to hit, and tough to boot. A brilliant end fight. ME2? Well, Harbinger was a joke. I'd established earlier on that I could one-shot him with a sniper rifle headshot, so he never once bothered me during the collector assaults, even at the end. As for the Larval Reaper? What do Bioware give us? An original, challenging fight as we have to fight our way across the body of the creature to take out weak points in it's structure? No, we get a bog standard, incredibly dull 'Screen size boss with a predictable pattern' fight. Been there, done that, not only got the T-Shirt but a wardrobe full of the novelty clothing...Really, I expected a lot better.

I agree that a lot of the game does seem 'dumbed down' from the first. In many cases, this is a streamlining effect, and isn't too much of a bad thing. Too much complexity can be a bad thing (The absurd micromanagement of MOO3 being a perfect example).

Although I am a big fan of the new hacking mini-games (Much much better than a game of Simon), the scanning mini-game is just....incredibly dull. Aside from just the repetition of moving a reticle across a ball while watching/listening for graph spikes, it's blatantly a shallow attempt to increase the length of time you play, as you are constantly told 'If you don't have the adequate upgrades, you'll suffer permanent party deaths once you go through the Omega 4 relay'. it was fun the first couple of times I did it, but then the scanning became a seriously annoying chore I had to perform, much like the manual docking procedure in games like Elite. At the very least, Bioware, could you give us an addition to the game where we can buy an upgrade that will automatically grab all minerals from a planet, maybe not as efficiently as manually, say, only 70-80% of what you'd get if you scanned yourself. At least with the Mako (as hated as it was...I actually enjoyed the Mako bits, but I know many didn't) it was more interesting than moving a reticle across a ball and watching/listening for a graph spike.

And mentioning the 'game played time extending' of the scanning system brings me to another point. ME2 just seemed...well, less epic than 1. I really, really disliked the Cerberus angle. Although it says many times you aren't working for Cerberus...let's face it, you are, no matter what justification or denial you give. And I hated that. Sure, it's an important mission, but when you look at the larger scheme of things...it was nowhere near as grandiose as ME1.
It also seemed to be a lot smaller. Cutting the segments up into 'mission reports' was a nice enough idea, but it really lessened the game overall, especially in regards to the thrill of 'dinging'. basically, after every 'mission', I was guaranteed a level up. To me, gaining a level is an achievement in itself. I like to work towards it, not be handed it for just completing a 'map'.
ME1 seemed huge. It seemed to go on forever. And I had plenty of missions in which to get to know my crew. In ME2, it seems as soon as you gather your crew, you are catapulted into the final mission. In the final stages of my recruitment, I'd get their loyalty mission as soon as I got them. I really didn't have adequete mission time with Tali, Legion, Thane or Samara to get to really appreciate them, which I think is a great shame.

And again, we come to the 'final mission'. Boy, did that feel seriously short. Leaving aside the ludicrous nature of the final 'pattern boss', it just felt so...swift. The idea of splitting the party and assigning specialists was truly brilliant, but I have to say, in many cases I immediately assumed that I'd be cutting back and forth between controlling each team, as they tried to achieve their sub-mission. That would have been pretty cool, and would have lengthened the final mission considerably. As it is, we just complete short sections with Shepard and co.
In ME1, the final mission was HUGE. Jump to Ilos, fight our way through the Geth chasing Saren...and the Ilos mission itself was bigger than the Collector Base...only to find he's gone back to the Citadel. We follow, only to find we have to fight our way through more Geth...and not only that, but up the actual side of a huge tower. Now THAT was truly epic. Not so ME2. Quite the shame.

So, Bioware, I did really enjoy ME2, but it wasn't as good as 1. get some of the old team back (I'm guessing they're working on the SW MMO) for ME3, do some actual innovation again, instead of falling back to old videogame cliches (pattern bosses), and here's hoping ME3 will be...spectacular.

[DarthCaine]

@ OP

Read my sig, and IMO ME2>>ME1

Modifié par DarthCaine, 02 février 2010 - 02:48 .

[Rob E Coyote]

Well, in regards to the quotes in your sig.



1) I made no mention about RPG at all in my post. Everything I mentioned (aside from not liking working for Cerberus) was to do with the gameplay.



2) Well, I said I'm really enjoying the game, and in fact, am playing it right now IAW, 2nd playthrough.



So, your quotes...wrong and uh...wrong.

[DarthCaine]

Rob E Coyote wrote...

Well, in regards to the quotes in your sig.

1) I made no mention about RPG at all in my post. Everything I mentioned (aside from not liking working for Cerberus) was to do with the gameplay.

2) Well, I said I'm really enjoying the game, and in fact, am playing it right now IAW, 2nd playthrough.

So, your quotes...wrong and uh...wrong.

I was actually refering to the OP, but nvm

[N7R C7]

I felt after my 40 hrs of amazingness that the ending for ME2 would be a bit more dramatic, sure it was good but I really was expecting was like "hey! this is the most awesome ending evar! becaseu you survived" . . . it was more like"mkay cool you made it" lol

[Mehow_pwn]

Well I'd say ME2 combat and Uppgrades>ME1 and ME1 Exp system, items and lvl/stats/class thing that you could use in the first one >ME2

Modifié par Mehow_pwn, 02 février 2010 - 02:50 .

[vigna]

olp33 wrote...

Yessir, got it on the Collector Ship, the one where you get a chance to pick up one of three different weapons

The particle beam heavy weapon is the greatest weapon I used in the game...IMO.

[Terwox_]

tbh, the only thing dumbed down in ME 2 compared to ME 1 is.

Inventory management: Which there is hardly any at all now, other than changing around to your preferred weapon in the rare cases the game force feeds you a weapon you don't want. But tbh, I like the new inventory management system. Its streamlined and easy.

Skill tree: Its abit less than it used to be, but the classes have clearer lines separating them now. The skills removed have been moved into the research system for the most part though, so technically they're still there. Although I'm sad to see some skills absent, this new system is actually quite good despite the nerf.

Itemization: The amount off weapons and armors have been reduced alot. Although the customization of the standard armor makes up for some off it, still wish they'd increase the amount off parts available to it though. As for weapons, still wouldn't mind a few more options. Or the ability to customize the once already present, or maybe a little bit off both. But all in all the new itemization system works, if lacking in variety. Although it still beats dragging around 2 billion useless weapons coz when you get the spectre weapons nothing will ever be better again, except the improved spectre weapons. Or having to reduce everything to omnigel coz you reached the credit limit 22 planets ago. And then when you get maxed on both, there wasn't really any reason to pick anything up, unless you found a better armor (rarely) biotic or tech amp (even more rarely) or a better/useful weapon upgrade (which you did at a rare too moderate rate)

The rest off the gameplay elements are better without a doubt, although a toggle function on the scanning would be preferable over having to hold down the button the entire time. Still beats spending 5 minutes climbing a damn mountain for an anomaly, only to find out it was something utterly useless... again.

Modifié par Terwox_, 02 février 2010 - 03:14 .

[olp33]

DarthCaine wrote...

@ OP

Read my sig, and IMO ME2>>ME1

Thanks for dumbing down my statement and making yourself look like an idiot. I explained my reasoning a thousand times already but clearly people like you need things simplified since you can't handle complexity. One reason why ME2 < ME1.

Clearly if you take out a specific part of a statement and ignore the info surrounding it you will make someone look stupid. It's obvious that it is grammatically and conceptually incorrect to say something is more RPG than another; and this what I think your trying to get at. Me and everyone else on these forums (with the same issue) have said we hate how many RPG elements were taken out of ME2. 

I'll simplify it for you since you won't understand. classic RPG elements like: inventory management, looting, character growth, customization, and many more aspects.  These are the things we feel are missing from ME2, it can be simplified to a certain extent but should not be completely eleminated.Hopefully this will stop making you think your a smart a$-s for dumbing down people's opinons

[olp33]

Terwox_ wrote...

tbh, the only thing dumbed down in ME 2 compared to ME 1 is.

Inventory management: Which there is hardly any at all now, other than changing around to your preferred weapon in the rare cases the game force feeds you a weapon you don't want. But tbh, I like the new inventory management system. Its streamlined and easy.

Skill tree: Its abit less than it used to be, but the classes have clearer lines separating them now. The skills removed have been moved into the research system for the most part though, so technically they're still there. Although I'm sad to see some skills absent, this new system is actually quite good despite the nerf.

Itemization: The amount off weapons and armors have been reduced alot. Although the customization of the standard armor makes up for some off it, still wish they'd increase the amount off parts available to it though. As for weapons, still wouldn't mind a few more options. Or the ability to customize the once already present, or maybe a little bit off both. But all in all the new itemization system works, if lacking in variety. Although it still beats dragging around 2 billion useless weapons coz when you get the spectre weapons nothing will ever be better again, except the improved spectre weapons. Or having to reduce everything to omnigel coz you reached the credit limit 22 planets ago. And then when you get maxed on both, there wasn't really any reason to pick anything up, unless you found a better armor (rarely) biotic or tech amp (even more rarely) or a better/useful weapon upgrade (which you did at a rare too moderate rate)

The rest off the gameplay elements are better without a doubt, although a toggle function on the scanning would be preferable over having to hold down the button the entire time. Still beats spending 5 minutes climbing a damn mountain for an anomaly, only to find out it was something utterly useless... again.

I agree with your statement completely. But you don't think the story was dumbed down?

[eldanori]

Rob E Coyote wrote...
I have to admit, even though I've really enjoyed ME2 and had a great time playing it, to me it suffers from the age old problem of sequelitis...it's not as good as the original.

Rob summed up most of the problems I had with ME2.  I was expecting ME1 with a new story - maybe small changes, like a better Mako/exploration system, less clutter in the inventory - small changes and tweaks of the current system.

ME2 isn't even the same game as ME1, and honestly the storyline and universe don't feel the same either. 

I knew I was going to a bad place with the story when the game started with Shepard dying. 

In ME1, I was roaming the galaxy as the new hotness, the new human Spectre working to prove her worth and the worth of her species.  The choices I made at the Citadel made me feel proud, a soaring sense of acheivement and success that brought me to tears as I stood before the Council that my choices had saved and basically said, "Have you seen what humanity is worth now?"  When they gave us the seat because of my actions, I wept with joy. 

It moved me.  It's why I bought the sequel.

And the sequel did nothing but let me down.  Not only has the gameplay changed so much as to be nearly unidentifiable as the same series - a vast reduction in armour and weapon customisation, a grossly stunted "exploration" mechanic, and the thermal clips - oh god, the thermal clips! - making me feel less like a noble and proud Alliance soldier and Spectre and more like some cheap, scavenging mercenary sweeping the battlefield to loot the bodies of the fallen for their precious, precious "clips" - but the story sent me down paths I just could not see the same Shepard from ME1 taking.  The whole "rebuilding Shepard" angle was bad enough - forcing her to then work with Cerberus, an agency whose every effort she spent large portions of ME1 opposing because they were simply so dispicible (so much so that even my second-play Renegade pro-human Shepard hated Cerberus in ME1,) was utterly insulting.

It is clear to me that this game was not built by the same team as the first, and it has caused me to seriously reconsider continuing with the series. 

I agree with the OP; I am eagerly awaiting the real ME2.  This game is as utter a disappointment as Fallout 3. 

I honestly thought BioWare better than this. 

Modifié par eldanori, 02 février 2010 - 03:35 .

[ElBiggus]

I don't miss the way the inventory was implemented, but I miss looting; sure, 99% of the time it was yet another feeble weapon that went straight to gel, but once in a while you'd pick up something sweet. An RPG without loot is like, er, something without something important!



Planet scanning is, I believe, universally hated, and why it wasn't ditched early in development is beyond me; all it does is extend the time it takes to play the game by introducing a compulsory but tediously long-winded element. Getting a substantial amount of resources on a second playthrough was definitely a bonus



One crucial thing that ME2 has lost from ME1 was the fact that on "away missions" you got a sense of the characters personalities; this time around it makes pretty much no difference who you bring with you as the vast majority of the time you don't even notice they're there unless you catch the odd glimpse of them running around bizarrely during a conversation. Even the much-hated elevator rides were more interesting than the loading animations (is it just me, or does the shuttle landing wireframe look like a robot horse running backwards?) as you'd get the odd amusing conversation between your squadmembers.



Don't get me wrong, I'm going to play ME2 to death, and it's an excellent game, but at times it feels hollow and empty...

[Terwox_]

olp33 wrote...

Terwox_ wrote...

tbh, the only thing dumbed down in ME 2 compared to ME 1 is.

Inventory management: Which there is hardly any at all now, other than changing around to your preferred weapon in the rare cases the game force feeds you a weapon you don't want. But tbh, I like the new inventory management system. Its streamlined and easy.

Skill tree: Its abit less than it used to be, but the classes have clearer lines separating them now. The skills removed have been moved into the research system for the most part though, so technically they're still there. Although I'm sad to see some skills absent, this new system is actually quite good despite the nerf.

Itemization: The amount off weapons and armors have been reduced alot. Although the customization of the standard armor makes up for some off it, still wish they'd increase the amount off parts available to it though. As for weapons, still wouldn't mind a few more options. Or the ability to customize the once already present, or maybe a little bit off both. But all in all the new itemization system works, if lacking in variety. Although it still beats dragging around 2 billion useless weapons coz when you get the spectre weapons nothing will ever be better again, except the improved spectre weapons. Or having to reduce everything to omnigel coz you reached the credit limit 22 planets ago. And then when you get maxed on both, there wasn't really any reason to pick anything up, unless you found a better armor (rarely) biotic or tech amp (even more rarely) or a better/useful weapon upgrade (which you did at a rare too moderate rate)

The rest off the gameplay elements are better without a doubt, although a toggle function on the scanning would be preferable over having to hold down the button the entire time. Still beats spending 5 minutes climbing a damn mountain for an anomaly, only to find out it was something utterly useless... again.

I agree with your statement completely. But you don't think the story was dumbed down?

I enjoyed the story, there were a few things I'd wish they had done more. Like at least seeing Tali's face for one. More story for Legion. Small bits and pieces off story here and there basically. But I suspect that we'll be seeing more off Legion in ME 3 to be honest. As for Tali, one can only hope. It was fun to take Legion along with you on Tali's loyalty mission though. But again, I would have liked to see more "visible" reactions to legion when I visit other places as well. Although most off those visits will happen after you copmpleted the game, at least if you wish to save the Normandy crew.

In short, I loved the story, especially the character stories. There were small moments where I'd wish they'd done more. But I also see potential to further explore most off those areas in ME3, so its only nit picks. And since middle acts in most stories usually leaves alot off loose ends, you can't really expect ME 2 to tie'em all up.

[Series5Ranger]

olp33 wrote...

Sorry I do tend to emphasize my point harshly but in many ways I do feel it was dumbed down. I feel like the inventory system was taken out so that reviewer on Gamespot named Kevin wouldn't complain about it anymore. He really sucked at the game and was to dumb to figure out how to use the inventory. I joke of course.....to a certain degree lol

See to me the Inventory system sucked on ME1 (I loved getting new gear and stuff, but it was difficult to sell stuff I didn't want / need anymore, like the lower level upgrades) I liked the new Ammo types as part of class system, But I agree that Some variance on Armor types and weapons (really want to see Race / class specialization Bonuses on some weapons too) would be a nice touch. Don't get me wrong combat was a lot of fun in this game, and I really liked the new level up / Upgrade systems, but the resource procurement section was a bit tedious. Sad thing is I actually miss the Mako on Ground missions, because it took out the Land on a planet to look around aspect of the game.

[Reiisha]

Honestly, they already say it ingame...



I sort of miss the inventory thing, but on the other hand i don't. It was a LOT of fiddling, and i don't know why people seem to enjoy melting hundreds of items into omnigel. It was by far the most boring part of the game.



I fully support ME2 doing away with that problem entirely, and replacing it with customization instead. I would however would have liked a more indepth character development. The new system is good, but i'd have liked more skills, especially for squadmates.