114 réponses à ce sujet

[HrznKn]

AngryTigerP wrote...

HrznKn wrote...

If the reapers could reach the milky way using their own drives in a reasonable amount of time they wouldn't have needed the citadel relay in the first place.

Are you people INTENTIONALLY ignoring the point?

The point of the CR isn't so that they can get to the Milky Way, it is so that they can enter it in a location that allows them to cut off the head of the Galaxy's government.

And they can't do that using normal drives why? What stopped them of using normal drives and head for the citadel and do this? Any object travelling at the speed of light, or faster, is invisible until it hits you in the face, so element of surprise isnt the reason. The only conclusion is, unless i missed something, that they simply can't.
They are dependent on mass relays (or some other tech that isnt revealed yet) to return.

Modifié par HrznKn, 02 février 2010 - 09:56 .

[wulf3n]

HrznKn wrote...

AngryTigerP wrote...

HrznKn wrote...

If the reapers could reach the milky way using their own drives in a reasonable amount of time they wouldn't have needed the citadel relay in the first place.

Are you people INTENTIONALLY ignoring the point?

The point of the CR isn't so that they can get to the Milky Way, it is so that they can enter it in a location that allows them to cut off the head of the Galaxy's government.

And they cant do that using normal drives why? What's stopping them of using normal drives and head for the citadel and do this? Any object travelling at the speed of light, or faster, is invisible until it hits you in the face, so element of surprise isnt the reason.

Is there a direct line between where they are, and the Citadel? Course Corrections? plus im guessin thousands of massive ships travelling through the galaxy won't go unnoticed, just because they're travelling FTL. That gives the citadel time to close arms, reinforce with fleets, retreat whahever

[Alexandus]

Our reaper friends tried Plan A: Use Saren, Ambassador Udina's idiocy, and the Geth to grab the citadel for a fast, easy, galactic rampage.

Result: Dead Saren, weakened Heretic Geth, and alerted humans.



Failing Plan A, they tried Plan B: Use Collectors to weaken humanity while building an army of husk-creatures, while funneling the majority of the captured genetic material into building a human reaper which would likely be used to try Plan A again.

Result: Dead Collectors. Angry Humans. Let a lot of Reaper-tech slip to their enemies.



Plan C? The galaxy will never know, because apparently one of the Reapers pulled a

LEEEROY JENKINSSS and charged. The rest followed suit, in which inevitably will result in their entire raid group wiping, and their healer leaving the party for another group.

[Ilawene]

Reapers are pretty big, they might well have the ability to use mass relay type travel without needing an "entry" relay, just an exit relay as a homing beacon. If that were the case it wouldnt take them long at all to get to the galactic rim.

[wulf3n]

I think the main threat is, and i might need to be corrected on this, but can't the reapers disengage the mass relays? if so the galaxy is screwed when the reapers get here, even if all the races do unite they're pretty much stuck in their initial assault position. My first order of business as shepard would be to understand mass relays and quickly build our own network, the reaper war would probably end up being guerrilla attacks on each others relays untill one side had the advantage.

[PunkxRonin]

HrznKn wrote...

Are you people INTENTIONALLY ignoring the point?

The point of the CR isn't so that they can get to the Milky Way, it is so that they can enter it in a location that allows them to cut off the head of the Galaxy's government. Doing so makes their job much easier. Granted, it is obviously faster than just flying towards the Milky Way, but the efficiency of travel isn't the point.

No I understand that the plan was to use the Relays to manipulate sentient technological development then attack them at the source they assume they will use as a center for their entire culture's military/government... Illogical as that plan is. However, if they have the ability to travel several houndred thousand light years, in a few decades... They do not need the Relays... They do not need the Citidel. All they have to do is fly in every few hundred thousand years, distroy all life. Nothing would have time to develop to be able to out manuver them, hide from them, or escape their reach.

I think a lot of this stems from people's misconceptions about space travel, the speed of light, and physics. Again I bring up the point it's just a game and ultimatley who cares it's a fun story.

wulf3n wrote...

Is there a direct line between where they are, and the Citadel? Course
Corrections? plus im guessin thousands of massive ships travelling
through the galaxy won't go unnoticed, just because they're travelling
FTL. That gives the citadel time to close arms, reinforce with fleets,
retreat whahever

Another argument that is based off of misunderstanding of physics. First of all let me just clarify that according to our current understanding, it is impossible to travel faster then the speed of light. Good ol' Einstein is to blame for this revelation. So lets just ignore this for the sake of cool sci-fi space story.

If the Reapers are able to travel fast enough to move across several hundred thousand light years in under a decade... they would be invisable (Optically) as they'd arive before you would see them. They would still pick up on radio signals, but by the time your ping went out, bounced off them, and then returned to inform you. You're already dead, beause they beat that signal. Let alone how long it took the Citidel to close it's arms. I mean sovereign had time to cruse into the Citdel at far slower then light speed to beat those arms.

[wulf3n]

PunkxRonin wrote...

Another argument that is based off of misunderstanding of physics. First of all let me just clarify that according to our current understanding, it is impossible to travel faster then the speed of light. Good ol' Einstein is to blame for this revelation. So lets just ignore this for the sake of cool sci-fi space story.

If the Reapers are able to travel fast enough to move across several hundred thousand light years in under a decade... they would be invisable (Optically) as they'd arive before you would see them. They would still pick up on radio signals, but by the time your ping went out, bounced off them, and then returned to inform you. You're already dead, beause they beat that signal. Let alone how long it took the Citidel to close it's arms. I mean sovereign had time to cruse into the Citdel at far slower then light speed to beat those arms.

I know i thought of this, and before it turns into a superman vs batman argument ( i mean we are debating science fiction with no basis in reality) they have FTL travel, and FTL Communication, its not impossible to assume they have FTL sensors.

[PunkxRonin]

Oh... and then there's Time Dilation to consider... but... ya know never mind

I reiterate my earlier solution: Space Magic.

Modifié par PunkxRonin, 02 février 2010 - 09:58 .

[morel142]

OpDDay2001 wrote...

Xena_Shepard wrote...

gamergamergamer wrote...

lol the thing that i dont get is that if the reapers could just fly into the galaxy why did they bother with the collectors and saren plots. infact why even need the surprise attack relay on the citadel at all

The same reason remote controls were invented, because they're lazy.

The Citadel-relay was simply a quick effective way to get back into the galaxy, it was also key to their plan as explained by Vigil, they attack the Citadel first which is the seat of galactic power and that leaves all the races of the galaxy scrambling to figure out wtf is going on.

Not only that but it makes the most sense since the Reapers are not All-Powerful and immortal. Shepard, with the combined might of just the Council Races Fleet and the Alliance Fleet, brought down one pretty quickly (though with heavy losses). Another was found destroyed, deserted, and 'brain-dead' on the edge of the gravitational well of a brown dwarf. It was persumably destroyed when it crashed into the core of the giant failed star. They don't feel they can be beaten, but they don't want to take the heavy losses that would come from a prolonged battle with all the sentient races of the Galaxy. Even with their vast numbers, they can be destroyed. A logical machine would want to reduce that risk, even if the risk is minimal in the first place. To do that the Relay system was the best choice. It was quick, efficient, and cut off the head, making resistance futile.

Anyway, you figure that every space-faring sentient race in the Galaxy uses Reaper Tech (in some form), so the longer the take the greater the chances are that the races of the galaxy become stronger and much harder to cull. Sovereign (and Legion when quoting Sovereign) had said that space-faring races evolve in 'predictable' ways because they use Reaper (and presumably Prothean) technology. That doesn't mean they can't exceed expectations or become a threat. Besides... I think that the Reapers have a reason to do what they are doing. I think it plays into Dark Energy. Reapers probably save the galaxy every 50,000 years by purging it of all sentient/sapient life because use of Mass Effect and other such things for prolong periods of time cause dark energy build-up. Who knows, there may yet be something worse and more dangerous than the Reapers out there. >.>

 That would explain the Quote "We are your Salvation through destruction!!" as Shepard is retreating back to the ship at the end.. 

 Something big is still unknown.. Really big..

[wulf3n]

PunkxRonin wrote...

Oh... and then there's Time Dilation to consider... but... ya know never mind

Yeah, isn't Einstiens theory just so depressing? i mean it practically rules out any notion of having an interstellar society. I think im gonna stick to fantasy

[mintek]

Sereaph502 wrote...

Some of you don't seem to get it.

"oh if they could fly here why did they bother having soverign try and get the citadel?"

Because if they attack the citadel first, then the rest of the galaxy is helpless. meaning it's easy for the reapers to destroy all life.

Now that soverign is gone, they HAVE to fly here. They'd rather take the shortcut through the citadel, but that was cut off. Now they have no choice.

And chances are they used up a lot of power in the process, meaning they'll probably be weaker. Plus, all life will be able to communicate better against them.

You ppl that say they are flying here forgets one thing. The mass effect 1 attack was not the first sovereign attack on the citadel races. The rachni war, was caused by him in a attempt to do the same thing as in mass effect 1. He was at it for over 2000 years. See they are suposed to be ''smart'' but the fact sovereign would unfold himself  to the galaxie if it was as simple as flying back into the galaxie if all fail is just pointless. They would have done so after the first attempt and not risk losing the element of surprise at all. Either you guys want sovereign to be a complete idiot of a reaper or they are limited in what they can do, which explain why they need the citadel so badly.

Theres only 2 logical explanation

1:Reaper cant travel back in a possible time not using the mass relay and they are obiviously on a set timer, it put pressure on sorvereign to act and try many attempt to get the citadel back even if it meant losing the element of surprise or endangering himself.

2: Sovergien is a complete retard and blew the element of surprise because he didnt succed in the rachni wars and tried it again insted of letting his pal just fly back, because you guys think its just as simple as flying back and beat us.

[morel142]

wulf3n wrote...

PunkxRonin wrote...

Oh... and then there's Time Dilation to consider... but... ya know never mind

Yeah, isn't Einstiens theory just so depressing? i mean it practically rules out any notion of having an interstellar society. I think im gonna stick to fantasy

 Bah..

 All things are possible given enough time and technology... Humans are so far from understanding the basic nature of the universe it's not funny.. 

[ShadowWolf_Kell]

pacer90 wrote...

Not literal. Please stop saying they are flying to us. It is a metaphor for "them flying tings is commin 2 get yaz."

Discuss, agree, disagree.

I think you hit the nail on the head.

Like a supreme being, people are too busy trying to explain and mold it entirely into a human perspective.  They're completely ignoring other possiblities beyond the scope of their understanding.  Rather, they're ttrying to mold it into narrow confines because the possibility of it being beyond that shakes up their perception of reality to uncomfortable levels.

Of course, that's just human nature.  There's a reason why when Galileo said the Earth revolved around the Sun, everyone believed the Sun revolved around the Earth.  Thank you all for demonstrating this point as clearly as it could possibly be.

[mintek]

morel142 wrote...

wulf3n wrote...

PunkxRonin wrote...

Oh... and then there's Time Dilation to consider... but... ya know never mind

Yeah, isn't Einstiens theory just so depressing? i mean it practically rules out any notion of having an interstellar society. I think im gonna stick to fantasy

 Bah..

 All things are possible given enough time and technology... Humans are so far from understanding the basic nature of the universe it's not funny.. 

The nature of the universe is impossible to understand. But its law are easy to understand as you can see them and calculate them. If the universe itself cannot break those law, no ammount of technoligie we will master will break those laws by the very fact that we are in the universe. Things like interstellar society are just dreams, we are resritcted by those very law the world we live in is restricted by even if we were to magicaly travel 50 time faster then light we wouldnt cover many ground which makes interstellar society a fiction. If a law change it means we miss understood how it worked, unless you find an object in the universe that can travel at such a speed, we wont break that law. Every discovery in physic is done by actualy seeying that law in effect. Unless we are able to see something that breaks those law, we wont ever be able to rewrite them. Its realy not a technology matter its just that you cant imagine yourself out of physic.

Modifié par mintek, 02 février 2010 - 10:25 .

[Direwolf029]

PunkxRonin wrote...

 Space Magic.

Also known as Biotics

[PunkxRonin]

Direwolf029 wrote...

PunkxRonin wrote...

 Space Magic.

Also known as Biotics

indeed! lol

[Revik]

 Theres a few details most people are forgetting from the first game.

Reapers NEED to take the Citadel.  This is done for 3 reasons.  Firstly all the governmental powers are seated there which would cause all races to go into disarray from confusion, all information on all sentient life would be stored at the Citadel, AND the mass relay network would be deactivated.

This is the reason why taking the Citadel is so vital and any strategy by the Reapers even now would have to start with taking the Citadel before any culling could take place.

Because most of the element of surprise has been eliminated due to Sovereign's botched attempt at taking the Citadel this complicates matters for the Reapers immensely.  While the Reaper fleet is vast it is very easy for a handful of sentient life forms to evade detection for many thousands of years or evade detection entirely like the protheans did on Ilos.  This is why breaking the Mass Relays is absolutely essential to success because sentient life could planet hop and the Reapers would never be able to catch up.

At this point the humans or more specifically Cerberus knows too much and could probably avoid total annihilation even if the Reaper fleets did come and wipe out most of humanity.

It is unknown if the Reapers are already making their approach to our Galaxy or not.  As someone mentioned it is doubtful they are heading to our galaxy at any kind of "conventional" FTL speed.  This is of course assuming that the Reapers exist somewhere outside our galaxy and not some other plane of existence.  I mean who is the say that the Citadel doesn't open a gate to some "other" place than our own?

[ShadowWolf_Kell]

Revik wrote...

 Theres a few details most people are forgetting from the first game.

Reapers NEED to take the Citadel.  This is done for 3 reasons.  Firstly all the governmental powers are seated there which would cause all races to go into disarray from confusion, all information on all sentient life would be stored at the Citadel, AND the mass relay network would be deactivated.

This is the reason why taking the Citadel is so vital and any strategy by the Reapers even now would have to start with taking the Citadel before any culling could take place.

Because most of the element of surprise has been eliminated due to Sovereign's botched attempt at taking the Citadel this complicates matters for the Reapers immensely.  While the Reaper fleet is vast it is very easy for a handful of sentient life forms to evade detection for many thousands of years or evade detection entirely like the protheans did on Ilos.  This is why breaking the Mass Relays is absolutely essential to success because sentient life could planet hop and the Reapers would never be able to catch up.

At this point the humans or more specifically Cerberus knows too much and could probably avoid total annihilation even if the Reaper fleets did come and wipe out most of humanity.

It is unknown if the Reapers are already making their approach to our Galaxy or not.  As someone mentioned it is doubtful they are heading to our galaxy at any kind of "conventional" FTL speed.  This is of course assuming that the Reapers exist somewhere outside our galaxy and not some other plane of existence.  I mean who is the say that the Citadel doesn't open a gate to some "other" place than our own?

You're trying to be a bit too clever.  It's clearly explained why there are Reapers hiding out within our own Galaxy.  They're watching and listening.  They don't need to access the Citadel for information that they've already been obtaining in secret.  Likely BY a direct link TO the Citadel anyway.  You know the Quantum Entanglement device EDI and TIM have set up?  Who's to say the Citadel doesn't have something similar, but far more advanced?

Cutting off the head of a opposing force is an excellent idea for someone who's evenly matched, or way out of their league.  In the case of the Reapers, it's irrelevant.  They really have no need to do so given that the galaxy couldn't really harm them anyway.  You're looking at bees vs tanks.  No contest.  Sovereing basically states as much too, quite contemptously I might add.  The galaxy are gnats to the Reapers and they make that blatantly clear.

They aren't really worried about anyone trying to flee or hide either.  They're quite thorough in their mop up (mostly) so it simply comes down to some other method.  The virus introduced in ME2 is a good example.  It explains why the Protheans were the only ones left to deal with the Reapers and why they were caught completely off guard.  If the galaxy is dying to a plague on a massive scale and your attention is focused solely on that, then the Reapers show up via the Citadel and start shutting down the mass relays...  well you get the idea.

It's hinted at in ME1 that the Citadel's function is the control device FOR the mass relays.  If the Reapers want the Citadel, it's for that reason and that reason alone.  To close off and isolate areas at their whim.  The other function was to wake the hybernating Reapers.  Whether they are awake yet or not is unknown.

Anyway in both games as you explore you'll run across situations on the planets you scan where there were obviously fights vs Reapers.  None of these seem to be Protheans vs the Reapers.  Rather it happened in the very distant past meaning that their invasion technique with the Citadel has beeen thwarted in the past.  The Citadel is a tool, but obviously one they can live without.

You're dealing with omnipotent entities.  By trying to make them more basic, you really lose the insidiousness and hopelessness of the whole ME storyline.  The Reapers are so numerous, and so omnipotent, that standard warfare doctrines simply do not apply to them.

That said, I'm not arguing with you that the Citadel isn't important to them.  Rather, you're assuming it's important for a reason that for the Reapers is completely irrelevant.  The Reapers are sneaky for a reason yet to be revealed.

[mintek]

Revik wrote...

 Theres a few details most people are forgetting from the first game.

Reapers NEED to take the Citadel.  This is done for 3 reasons.  Firstly all the governmental powers are seated there which would cause all races to go into disarray from confusion, all information on all sentient life would be stored at the Citadel, AND the mass relay network would be deactivated.

This is the reason why taking the Citadel is so vital and any strategy by the Reapers even now would have to start with taking the Citadel before any culling could take place.

Because most of the element of surprise has been eliminated due to Sovereign's botched attempt at taking the Citadel this complicates matters for the Reapers immensely.  While the Reaper fleet is vast it is very easy for a handful of sentient life forms to evade detection for many thousands of years or evade detection entirely like the protheans did on Ilos.  This is why breaking the Mass Relays is absolutely essential to success because sentient life could planet hop and the Reapers would never be able to catch up.

At this point the humans or more specifically Cerberus knows too much and could probably avoid total annihilation even if the Reaper fleets did come and wipe out most of humanity.

It is unknown if the Reapers are already making their approach to our Galaxy or not.  As someone mentioned it is doubtful they are heading to our galaxy at any kind of "conventional" FTL speed.  This is of course assuming that the Reapers exist somewhere outside our galaxy and not some other plane of existence.  I mean who is the say that the Citadel doesn't open a gate to some "other" place than our own?

Pretty much, but the matter of them having other means of coming back beside the citadel just makes it sound like sovereign was stupid, which is realy not the way bioware was going with both games. Youd figure some all smart beings wouldnt oversight something as huge as the element of surprise if there was another way to do it all this time that didnt require a direct attack with the citadel races twice and one of them costing his own life and revealing them?

Things that are obivious about sorvereign and the reaper

-He was in a hurry he needed to open the citadel ASAP, blew the element of surprise, endangered himself to open the citadel even if it meant warning everyone.

-After losing the element of surprise the other key they can have is the element of time. Meaning the more they wait the harder their works become. If they would have anyway to get here they would use it asap.

-They obiviously have a time to respect and are trying very hard to get here otherwise they wouldnt try so hard via agents to get the citadel, they would silently use their other magical method ppl are trying to imagine of how they could get here.

[Gill Kaiser]

marshalleck wrote...

elucid07 wrote...

errr...

It's pretty clear they are on their way - there's nothing figurative about it. No mass relay = Let's fly there via FTL drives.

Which is why there was no need for Sovereign to go to great lengths and risk exposing their existence in order to open the Citadel relay, right?

The point of the Relay is that it allows every single Reaper to appear practically simultaneously, at the very heart of galactic government, where they can completely take their enemy by surprise and initiate the harvest. If they are indeed able to travel back to the Milky Way through conventional FTL drives, it would take a considerable time (years at least, possibly millennia depending upon just how fast they're able to go). Consider the fact that Shepard and the Council are aware of the Reaper threat (even though the Council's trying to ignore it), and therefore have years to prepare for the invasion. These are the kind of eventualities that Sovereign was meant to prevent.

[mintek]

ShadowWolf_Kell wrote...

That said, I'm not arguing with you that the Citadel isn't important to them.  Rather, you're assuming it's important for a reason that for the Reapers is completely irrelevant.  The Reapers are sneaky for a reason yet to be revealed.

Its releaved by itself. They arent invincible, they are also bound by the mass relay technologie they left, theirs is better but the laws are the same. They die to the same weaponary our ship does and use the same type of kinetic barriers and the mass relay cores once again theirs are all better, but the principle is the same. They are sneaky because they dont have acess to a way to get here. If they were all as powerful as they say themself and had a way to get here they would have done so and conquered the citadel themself. Its obivious they just dont have a way to get here yet otherwise they wouldnt wait and soveriegn wouldnt have hastly attacked on his own.

[aimlessgun]

Congrats everyone, you found a big plot hole, created because this whole story has to happen in Shep's lifetime so foiling the Citadel backdoor, instead of delaying the reaper invasion by hundreds or thousands of years, just delays it for a few years.



Yes, it's dumb. Yes, the writing team thinks of the reaper fleet as literally flying towards us. The picture is literal except for the perspective on the milky way, which should really be much closer but is shown in full for dramatic effect.



Don't think too much about it. People trying to speculate that they somehow must have relays to get back because otherwise it doesn't make any sense, guess what: It doesn't make any sense. It's a plot hole. Deal with it.

[mintek]

Gill Kaiser wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

elucid07 wrote...

errr...

It's pretty clear they are on their way - there's nothing figurative about it. No mass relay = Let's fly there via FTL drives.

Which is why there was no need for Sovereign to go to great lengths and risk exposing their existence in order to open the Citadel relay, right?

The point of the Relay is that it allows every single Reaper to appear practically simultaneously, at the very heart of galactic government, where they can completely take their enemy by surprise and initiate the harvest. If they are indeed able to travel back to the Milky Way through conventional FTL drives, it would take a considerable time (years at least, possibly millennia depending upon just how fast they're able to go). Consider the fact that Shepard and the Council are aware of the Reaper threat (even though the Council's trying to ignore it), and therefore have years to prepare for the invasion. These are the kind of eventualities that Sovereign was meant to prevent.

Which is why they arent on their way here flying. If they had the mean to actualy do so as quickly as before a meer human like shepard die of old age in mass effect 3, they would have done so before sovereign even lost the element of surprise. Sovereign tried to regain the control of the citadel for 2000 years minimum but hey they could just fly back here so all of it was pointless?

[aimlessgun]

mintek wrote...

Gill Kaiser wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

elucid07 wrote...

errr...

It's pretty clear they are on their way - there's nothing figurative about it. No mass relay = Let's fly there via FTL drives.

Which is why there was no need for Sovereign to go to great lengths and risk exposing their existence in order to open the Citadel relay, right?

The point of the Relay is that it allows every single Reaper to appear practically simultaneously, at the very heart of galactic government, where they can completely take their enemy by surprise and initiate the harvest. If they are indeed able to travel back to the Milky Way through conventional FTL drives, it would take a considerable time (years at least, possibly millennia depending upon just how fast they're able to go). Consider the fact that Shepard and the Council are aware of the Reaper threat (even though the Council's trying to ignore it), and therefore have years to prepare for the invasion. These are the kind of eventualities that Sovereign was meant to prevent.

Which is why they arent on their way here flying. If they had the mean to actualy do so as quickly as before a meer human like shepard die of old age in mass effect 3, they would have done so before sovereign even lost the element of surprise. Sovereign tried to regain the control of the citadel for 2000 years minimum but hey they could just fly back here so all of it was pointless?

See my post above. It's just a plot hole. Stop thinking about it. They are literally flying to us in the minds of the writers.