114 réponses à ce sujet

[mintek]

aimlessgun wrote...

Congrats everyone, you found a big plot hole, created because this whole story has to happen in Shep's lifetime so foiling the Citadel backdoor, instead of delaying the reaper invasion by hundreds or thousands of years, just delays it for a few years.

Yes, it's dumb. Yes, the writing team thinks of the reaper fleet as literally flying towards us. The picture is literal except for the perspective on the milky way, which should really be much closer but is shown in full for dramatic effect.

Don't think too much about it. People trying to speculate that they somehow must have relays to get back because otherwise it doesn't make any sense, guess what: It doesn't make any sense. It's a plot hole. Deal with it.

Hey or it could be intended and the reaper fleet is shown outside our galaxie for dramatic effect. It doesent mean they can fly back here. Just mean they are all awake and still plotting a way to take the citadel or its a mega plot hole and poor sovereign died for no reason and tried to open the citadel for a few thousand years for absolutly nothing died and lost the element of surprise completly. Both could work.

[Dan_cw]

People seem to be referencing the fact it'll take years for the Reapers to reach the Milky Way. As I don't know anything about space travel etc., I'm not going to offer my thoughts on that.

However:

If what's said is true, has anyone considered the fact that the cutscene at the end could have actually occured at the end of the first game and we're only just seeing it now? Meaning reaching the Milky Way in time for the start of the third game (or close to it) is easier? As there isn't as far to travel.

Might be a daft thought on my part, but there you are.

[Elios]

wulf3n wrote...

PunkxRonin wrote...

Oh... and then there's Time Dilation to consider... but... ya know never mind

Yeah, isn't Einstiens theory just so depressing? i mean it practically rules out any notion of having an interstellar society. I think im gonna stick to fantasy

not intirely if you could warp space-time and then ride it like a wave you can have FTL with out the nasty side-effects

[ShadowAldrius]

Harbinger says "We will find another way."



Enough said. They're not flying in all the way from Dark Space.



At least if they are, that's not clear yet.

[aimlessgun]

Yes, it's true that I am also just speculating hehe.



However, ME doesn't seem like the kind of game that would display the idea of "still plotting" metaphorically by showing them flying at us. Just a feeling on my part.



Second, how the heck ARE they supposed to get here then? It would have to be something just totally off the wall, or trying to get the Citadel again (which won't happen because obviously the writers won't repeat themselves). Someone mentioned black holes? Who knows, but if it's something like that the science is almost worse than the reapers literally flying here.

[Cariono]

If the Reapers really are designed to look like the species used to create them, I'm starting to think the Hanar Enkindelers aren't the benevolent gods that they believe in. Just a thought, since they all look like Jellyfish >_>

[ShadowWolf_Kell]

mintek wrote...

ShadowWolf_Kell wrote...

That said, I'm not arguing with you that the Citadel isn't important to them.  Rather, you're assuming it's important for a reason that for the Reapers is completely irrelevant.  The Reapers are sneaky for a reason yet to be revealed.

Its releaved by itself. They arent invincible, they are also bound by the mass relay technologie they left, theirs is better but the laws are the same. They die to the same weaponary our ship does and use the same type of kinetic barriers and the mass relay cores once again theirs are all better, but the principle is the same. They are sneaky because they dont have acess to a way to get here. If they were all as powerful as they say themself and had a way to get here they would have done so and conquered the citadel themself. Its obivious they just dont have a way to get here yet otherwise they wouldnt wait and soveriegn wouldnt have hastly attacked on his own.

This is where your logic fails.  You're taking what's known for the galaxy and assuming that it also applies to the Reapers.  That the technology that they have "given" us, is the very same technology they are still bound to.

In that vein, you're also limiting the Reapers themselves as not being able to advance technologically beyond the scope of the galactic rat maze they've designed.

That said, this is also a video game that's focusing more on story and less on physics.  There are just enough similarities to reality and technojargon to give it that "trekky" feel.  Biotics goes in the opposite direction.

Lastly, no sentient species is going to gift the technology that they rely on to hostile forces...  Except maybe the Volus.

[Lukertin]

I don't know why people say it'll take years for the Reapers to reach the Milky way.
In ME1 &2 travel between points in the galaxy NOT using a mass effect relay are possible, it happens all the time and there isn't anything weird about it. The mass effect drive of even System Alliance ships allows faster-than-light travel. I don't see why the Reapers wouldn't have something exponentially more advanced and capable.

The codex entry on FTL travel (http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/FTL) suggests speeds of at least 200x light speed.  

Modifié par Lukertin, 02 février 2010 - 11:33 .

[aimlessgun]

ShadowAldrius wrote...

Harbinger says "We will find another way."

Enough said. They're not flying in all the way from Dark Space.

At least if they are, that's not clear yet.

Actually that whole "We will find another way." quote is strange in itself. Find another way to do what? I mean what the hell were the collectors even trying in ME2? Their ship turned out to be pretty weak, if the Alliance/Council didn't have their heads up their asses they could have taken it down easily and stopped the human colony abductions. Even if nobody ever got around to shooting down the weak ship and they somehow abducted millions and millions of humans unopposed, what are they going to do with this oversized terminator that isn't even very large compared to an actual spaceship. They're sure as hell not going to conquer the galaxy with it. Were they going to take the citadel with it? I guess that's a possibility.

[mintek]

aimlessgun wrote...

Yes, it's true that I am also just speculating hehe.

However, ME doesn't seem like the kind of game that would display the idea of "still plotting" metaphorically by showing them flying at us. Just a feeling on my part.

Second, how the heck ARE they supposed to get here then? It would have to be something just totally off the wall, or trying to get the Citadel again (which won't happen because obviously the writers won't repeat themselves). Someone mentioned black holes? Who knows, but if it's something like that the science is almost worse than the reapers literally flying here.

Nah its simple. It cant be flying back, because if it was as simple as that they would have done it. However a plot can be made that they are using yet another agent to build a way to get here or another way to attack the citadel. Both could work as long as it show they havent just been sitting there with their thumb up their ass during mass effect 1 and 2. Im pretty sure bioware writters didnt create a plothole as big as that in their story since 80% of this game is the story. A single reaper almost defeated the entire army of the citadel with the help of geths, if shepard didnt break his shield down he would have destroyed every single ship. If all reapers are that powerful killing their whole fleet is just impossible for the organics, its obivious we wont directly fight all of them. Theres gona be a more subtle way to win and since shepard is only a man and its a shooter it will be a war won on foot with guns. AKA theres not gona be any reapers mass army storming us.

[Tony_Knightcrawler]

If the Reapers "needed" the Citadel relay to get into the galaxy, then how'd they set up another relay in dark space in the first place, huh? :-P It's just a better way to get in.

[aimlessgun]

mintek wrote...

Nah its simple. It cant be flying back, because if it was as simple as that they would have done it. However a plot can be made that they are using yet another agent to build a way to get here or another way to attack the citadel. Both could work as long as it show they havent just been sitting there with their thumb up their ass during mass effect 1 and 2. Im pretty sure bioware writters didnt create a plothole as big as that in their story since 80% of this game is the story. A single reaper almost defeated the entire army of the citadel with the help of geths, if shepard didnt break his shield down he would have destroyed every single ship. If all reapers are that powerful killing their whole fleet is just impossible for the organics, its obivious we wont directly fight all of them. Theres gona be a more subtle way to win and since shepard is only a man and its a shooter it will be a war won on foot with guns. AKA theres not gona be any reapers mass army storming us.

I don't think logic really applies here. They're building up to a big payoff, and that payoff is a HUGE, EPIC space space battle with the reapers.

I definitely agree that Shep will doing some commando stuff to take them down in an alternate fashion, but he will almost certainly be doing it while the HUGE EPIC SPACE BATTLE is happening, which we won't be winning, but maybe they're buying him time or whatever.

[vaesapiens]

If you put real science into the game it is considered kinda stupid. Just lika the example of the milky way perspective and flying towards it reaper fleet, wich will in normal physics terms a lot of time, the diameter of our galaxy is 100 thousand light years, it's kinda big.

And still for me some of the decissions that the reapers made, were just stupidium ore. They will loose the war, because they will be easly spotted, and nobody ever won a guerilla war without the element of suprise.

[mintek]

Lukertin wrote...

I don't know why people say it'll take years for the Reapers to reach the Milky way.
In ME1 &2 travel between points in the galaxy NOT using a mass effect relay are possible, it happens all the time and there isn't anything weird about it. The mass effect drive of even System Alliance ships allows faster-than-light travel. I don't see why the Reapers wouldn't have something exponentially more advanced and capable.

The codex entry on FTL travel (http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/FTL) suggests speeds of at least 200x light speed.  

Same codex also says the citadel races only explored 1% of the galaxie due to speed limitation and only visit the area close to the replay.

[Lanparth]

The Human Reaper very likely would have continued to grow until it began to look more like a regular Reaper imo.



But that is just speculation.



You don't know the technology of the Reapers, they may arrive in a few days, to five years, or 5000 years. Thats up to the writers. Period.

[mintek]

Tony_Knightcrawler wrote...

If the Reapers "needed" the Citadel relay to get into the galaxy, then how'd they set up another relay in dark space in the first place, huh? :-P It's just a better way to get in.

They probably done all of that before their plan started? That dead reaper we go in is 37 million years old. They obiviously had the luxurie of time back then to build all that. They dont now since the story is about shepard and shepard is a human that can barely live past 100 years.

[mintek]

Lanparth wrote...

The Human Reaper very likely would have continued to grow until it began to look more like a regular Reaper imo.

But that is just speculation.

You don't know the technology of the Reapers, they may arrive in a few days, to five years, or 5000 years. Thats up to the writers. Period.

Its up to them to create a plotehole pretty much. If they had the technoligy to get here faster they would have used it and soverien wouldnt have wasted 2000 years attacking the citadel twice. Thats what ppl saying they arent realy directly flying here are saying. Theres got to be more then, well they finally decided to fly here just now. Otherwise its a major plot hole how ever you look at it, may it be magic, super technoligies we havent heard of in the game. If they had that option they would have used it already.

[Lanparth]

The Citadel is more valuable than an instant arrival.



It controls all the travel network. In my opinion the Relay network is the single most important reason why they blitz the way they do. It doesn't matter if it only takes 2 years for them to arrive, the relays will still be intact.

[mintek]

Lanparth wrote...

The Citadel is more valuable than an instant arrival.

It controls all the travel network. In my opinion the Relay network is the single most important reason why they blitz the way they do. It doesn't matter if it only takes 2 years for them to arrive, the relays will still be intact.

They could just have arrived at the citadel themself and not let sovereign destroy their advtange of surprise which was the whole point of the citadel. But they obiviously cant otherwise they would have done it after soveriegn failure with the rachni war? Meaning its either a plotehole or theres more then we can see then: hey they are flying here now. The, we have to find another way, line is most likely a way to get back here, they certainly dont need another way to destroy us as soon as they get here we are toast it sure aint a single human reaper that would have made a difference in their army.

Modifié par mintek, 02 février 2010 - 12:05 .

[Kyria Nyriese]

marshalleck wrote...

Sure, you can say they're on their way. But even that is figurative, unless you believe they are literally flying back to the galaxy.

Once again to recap this problem: either they need a relay or they don't. Remember, they don't want humans 100,000 years from now, not 1,000 years from now. They want humans NOW.

So if they need the relay: they're kinda screwed and pissed off at Shepard at the moment, and working a contingency plan--which they've likely developed many of, having done this extinction thing many times over millions of years.

If they don't need the relay: why did Sovereign exist and why was there a Mass Effect 1 at all?

As someone else said, they just need to go out beyond the edge of the Milky Way, they could sit just outside the galaxy and wait, Dark Space isn't years away from the Galaxy itself, it's just on the other side of the Galactic barrier.  So for all intents and purposes, they could have already breached the Galactic Barrier and be in the Milky Way, which is kind of what is indicated by the end cut scene, and still be a year or 3 from reaching occupied space, we already know we don't control the entire galaxy, just a huge arm of it.

Modifié par Kyria Nyriese, 02 février 2010 - 12:08 .

[marshalleck]

Kyria Nyriese wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Sure, you can say they're on their way. But even that is figurative, unless you believe they are literally flying back to the galaxy.

Once again to recap this problem: either they need a relay or they don't. Remember, they don't want humans 100,000 years from now, not 1,000 years from now. They want humans NOW.

So if they need the relay: they're kinda screwed and pissed off at Shepard at the moment, and working a contingency plan--which they've likely developed many of, having done this extinction thing many times over millions of years.

If they don't need the relay: why did Sovereign exist and why was there a Mass Effect 1 at all?

As someone else said, they just need to go out beyond the edge of the Milky Way, they could sit just outside the galaxy and wait, Dark Space isn't years away from the Galaxy itself, it's just on the other side of the Galactic barrier.  So for all intents and purposes, they could have already breached the Galactic Barrier and be in the Milky Way, which is kind of what is indicated by the end cut scene, and still be a year or 3 from reaching occupied space, we already know we don't control the entire galaxy, just a huge arm of it.

The last scene of the game pretty much rules out the theory that the Reaper fleet is "just outside" the galaxy. The Milky Way is 100,000 light years across, which means traveling at the speed of light, it would take 100,000 years to cross it. They can see the entire width of the galaxy from their perspective, which means they are very, very far outside it.

Modifié par marshalleck, 02 février 2010 - 02:22 .

[mrs_anomaly]

pacer90 wrote...

Not literal. Please stop saying they are flying to us. It is a metaphor for "them flying tings is commin 2 get yaz."

Discuss, agree, disagree.

I agree.
It isn't like you could see the citadel in the foreground lol. They are hovering or traveling in space..which is exactly what they'd be doing regardless of the rest of the story.
It was an image for proof for Shepard so she could bring it back and contest everyone saying she's telling fairy stories and a gift from the Collector general to the current races of the galaxy.

[Gill Kaiser]

mintek wrote...

aimlessgun wrote...

Congrats everyone, you found a big plot hole, created because this whole story has to happen in Shep's lifetime so foiling the Citadel backdoor, instead of delaying the reaper invasion by hundreds or thousands of years, just delays it for a few years.

Yes, it's dumb. Yes, the writing team thinks of the reaper fleet as literally flying towards us. The picture is literal except for the perspective on the milky way, which should really be much closer but is shown in full for dramatic effect.

Don't think too much about it. People trying to speculate that they somehow must have relays to get back because otherwise it doesn't make any sense, guess what: It doesn't make any sense. It's a plot hole. Deal with it.

Hey or it could be intended and the reaper fleet is shown outside our galaxie for dramatic effect. It doesent mean they can fly back here. Just mean they are all awake and still plotting a way to take the citadel or its a mega plot hole and poor sovereign died for no reason and tried to open the citadel for a few thousand years for absolutly nothing died and lost the element of surprise completly. Both could work.

Well, the point of using the citadel relay is also to save energy. You have to figure it would take a good amount of energy to travel back to the Milky Way via either FTL drives or some other method that doesn't already have the infrastructure in place.

But you're right, they might not be flying here. The final cutscene might have just been to show that all the Reapers are finally awake, whereas before all we knew was that Sovereign (the lookout) had been awake, and Harbinger was awake. The fact that they're now moving shows that the Reapers are finally mobilising and are going to take care of business themselves instead of using proxies like the Collectors.

It may be that they're activating in preparation for travelling here by another method, which might have something to do with the prematurely dying sun that Tali was to study. Perhaps the Reapers have the technology to cause supernovas and create wormholes which they can then use?

[N7R C7]

I was kinda hoping that we would see what dark space was like and get out of the citadel and terminus galaxy into the beyond where the reapers were. But I guess the reapers are coming to us.

[Sniper11709]

Here's some extra fuel for the fire. If the reapers are so far out how the hell did Cerberus get nice pretty pictures, scans or what ever of them. If Cerberus can see them then they can't be that far out.