366 réponses à ce sujet

[MassEffect762]

I'll keep it real simple.



ME2 was enjoyable but regret the "hack N slash" approach it took.

The RPG elements are there sure but you need a telescope to see them.

The shooter mechanics while okay don't amaze, add the mediocre story and I can

see it falling apart.

[Revan312]

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

Gaming sites for serious gaming discussion.

And yes. Yes it is unanimous. Walk out of the bubble of these forums and you get a markedly different view of this game.

You can't cherry pick, gamefaqs is as much a game forum as any other, your the one living in a bubble, as obviously, me and any others not liking it invalidates your belief that there is "unanimous" praise of the game.  Your delusions of grandeur are amazing as is your ego. 

Modifié par Revan312, 17 février 2010 - 02:52 .

[Frotality]

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

Revan312 wrote...

SurfaceBeneath wrote...
The game has received both insane critical and commercial acclaim, and if you go on any web site forum other than this one, it's nearly unanimously agreed that ME2 fixed everything that was wrong with the first game from a gameplay perspective while providing a much more intimate portrait of the galaxy to the first one.

Wow, I guess you missed the gamefaqs boards, I count 7 "bit*h" threads on the first two pages, the rest are just gameplay questions like "Who do you talk to for X" or simple discussion threads like "Who romanced who?"etc. I think your missing a lot of the criticism of this game, theres more than you know, not a ton, but more than your seeing.  It's far from being unanimous..

Gaming sites for serious gaming discussion.

And yes. Yes it is unanimous. Walk out of the bubble of these forums and you get a markedly different view of this game.

because popularity = quality?

like a previous poster noted, when avatar is being hailed as a halmark of cinema, something is very wrong. the bubble of this forum,  full of flames, insults, and wrex/shepard threads as it is, is probably the bastion of intelligent discussion about the game. im quite sure i would get a whole lotta praise everywhere else, and that proves nothing but the willingness of humans to conform to popular opinion. remember that MW2 and halo 3 probably got equal/ alot more praise, and those arent exactly revolutions of interactive media either.

the only thing these boards can hold to be unanimous is that mass appeal = simple; so its a very bad factor to judge a game on; all it means is that the window shoppers and annoying spoiled kids who compose 80% or more of the gaming industry's sales bought it, doesnt even say if they even liked it. Bioware has always appealed to the ancient RPG players of the lost ages of 1980-90's, back when gaming was a niche market for nerds and certain quality and complexity standards had to be met in an rpg. i cant expect bioware to ever stay 'faithful' to a less profitable market, but i can expect more weapon customization than modern warfare 2 from the premier RPG developer.*



* see kal-reager for his opinion on dying of infection in the middle of a firefight to explain what this situation is.

[CajunRexShepard]

The sequel was linear, 'streamlined' and simplified in many ways... All of which I saw as bad things at first... The inexplicable lack of omni gel as a resource and the advent and refit of EVERY WEAPON IN THE GALAXY with 'thermal clips' were sticking points as well... That said, I enjoyed both games immensely for what they are, but to me the two only seem superficially related... I hate to bring up bad times, but it reminded me of the problems that led to another developer releasing KOTOR 2... and thus killing that series (IMHO at least)... I've been a fan of this developer from day one, and still own and play most of their games, and hope that they have a broad spectrum of DLC planned and an uber-epic part three in the works that will encompass all the minute details that made ME great with all the pretty bells and whistles and extra characters that made ME2 memorable... perhaps the option to play the 'immersive' or the 'streamlined' version of the finale? The only time someone fails is when they try to please everyone, and ME2 seemed like it was an invitation to the jaded players of Modern Warfare, or WoW, or any other genre specific stereotype... Though I am now thoroughly hooked on the ME universe and hope that it actually does not end after the trilogy... I'd play a spinoff game based on Wrex, or chronicling the First Contact War, etc etc just because it was that well written. That being said, these boards are here for venting as well as suggestions for improvement... I'll spare the venting any further (others have that more than covered) but My suggestion is simple- re-expand the universe. The possibilities are nearly infinite, and though it may 'bog down' the gameplay for some, those of us with adult attention spans and inquisitive natures will get over it and learn to flourish in a truly immersive environment.... 2 cents given.

[Rilke21]

We Tigers wrote...

Loved ME.  Loved ME2 even more.  As stated earlier on this page, I think its biggest asset was eliminating all the tedium of ME the first (chiefly the awful inventory and poorly designed planet exploration, though I would have liked some exploration this time out).

Riike, I think where you and I differ is in our relative appreciation of the squadmate stories.  I thought they were mostly great, even if a few too many of them did center around daddy issues.  The recruiting missions were all cool, on really well-designed, unique levels.  Just getting to visit 20 really well designed environments for key story missions was a huge improvement from the first game, which had 7 or 8.  As to the characters: each had, I'd wager, at least twice as much dialogue as their ME counterparts, thanks to the recruiting missions, loyalty missions, and on-Normandy chat.  That was a really clever way for Bioware to address concerns concerning the first game, considering many players wanted more out of those squadmates in terms of personality and individual story.

I love that sort of stuff.  This was an excellent RPG in its focus on characters, team-building, and progression through a story without filler.  Looting, not so much.  In terms of grand plot revelations, no, nothing in ME2 is quite as cool as talking to Sovereign on Virmire, but I do think ME2 did a great job of fleshing out the universe's lore, history, and culture.  I'm not sure what you mean by a story that "tries its hardest to create edge," but will gladly respond if you can clarify that.

Great post Tiger, I appreciate it. I agree that much of the tedium was removed, but for me, much of the spark was removed as well.

The recruiting missions were generally well designed and I did have a blast shooting my way through a lot of them. However, none of these mission were particularly story-driven, and each seemed fire-fight short. With the exception of Samara and Tali's loyalty missions, none of these hit-and-run short stories effected me on an emotional level at all.

In terms of general story structure, I thought that both the loyalty and recruitment missions came across as contrived. There was no reason to blow up Shepard in the first place, and building up a new crew seems more like an excuse to fill the gaps of a very thin main storyline.

I did appreciate the extra team dialogue, but the fake edginess of the suicide mission (let's see how many time we can repeat "suicide mission" before people get excited) didn't bring me any closer to my crew mates (why were half of them there in the first place?)

Nietzsche once accused Wagner of inspiring emotions in people that they didn’t deserve to feel (mostly because they would never be able to go through the epic experiences that Wagner tends to throw in your face.)  I often had the sense that the ham-handed storytelling of ME2 was trying to get me to feel something through power of suggestion, and not because there was something substantial there for me to feel. Again, it’s a matter of taste, but I had the impression that an artificial mood was replacing a real one. This is where ME2 just doesn’t live up to its sequel.

Anyway, thanks for supporting your opinion, and don't think that I hated ME2. It just didn’t feel nearly as authentic, and I can't hide my disappointment.

Modifié par Rilke21, 17 février 2010 - 03:00 .

[Crackseed]

As a "real" fan of Bioware and someone who played their games since Baldur's Gate 1, I absolutely love ME2. I believe it has a few things that need improving [squad armor needs the same love, a bit more depth to mods/armor pieces and a rethink/redo of scanning to be less cumbersome] but overall I have absolutely no complaints about the direction ME2 has taken.

I respect that people disagree and feel strongly, but to throw down the term "real fans" and try to say that a fan of Bioware's past work would not be happy with ME2 is both short sighted and off the mark. We are all individuals who define what makes things great to us in different ways and none of that makes one person "less" of a real fan then another.

I look forward to ME3 impatiently and in the meantime, will playthrough ME2 for the 4th time while also making sure my thoughts about things that can/should be improved get posted to the devs.

Modifié par crackseed, 17 février 2010 - 03:01 .

[SurfaceBeneath]

Frotality wrote...

because popularity = quality?

I didn't say that. I said that these forums attract a certain type of fan that runs counter to 98% of the rest of the fanbase.

[Rilke21]

crackseed wrote...

I respect that people disagree and feel strongly, but to throw down the term "real fans" and try to say that a fan of Bioware's past work would not be happy with ME2 is both short sighted and off the mark. We are all individuals who define what makes things great to us in different ways and none of that makes one person "less" of a real fan then another.

I took this one back on the first page, but yes, I can be an ass. I usually apologize though.

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

Frotality wrote...

because popularity = quality?

I didn't say that. I said that these forums attract a certain type of fan that runs counter to 98% of the rest of the fanbase.

Because you have surveyed 98% of all of the fanbase?

[Scottthesnow]

ME2 was great, for the most part. I found the ammo change asinine, but lots of people liked it. I played it for hours before I learned how to hack the *.ini file. They did put that file were we could get to it, and I really, really appreciate it.



In my opinion the terminator reaper was pretty lame, Grunt was a step down from Wrex, and NPCs willingly exposing flesh (not talking about Joker) to near vacuums...were all disappointments. I think if they had added tactical customization of squaddies without inventory it would have been a great step forward. Without it, the game is hit and miss.



It hits a lot though. If ME3 adds more tactical customization, retains the ability to get rid of ammo through mods and keeps the story quality of either games it will be amazing. Since Black Isle Studio closed its doors, Bioware is the strongest bastion of serious RPG the world has. People have the right to be critical

[Rilke21]

Revan and Frotality nailed it with the Avatar comparison. I actually enjoyed Avatar, but it was definitely short on substance. It was flashy and great to look at, and I didn't even mind the Pocahontas plot...but the characters couldn't have been more linear and the story couldn't have been more predictable. You can say the same for ME2, except that the plot was far more thin and the characters were even more transparent (at least Jack, Miranda, Jacob, Grunt and every NPC that was thrown in from ME1 were more transparent.) All in all, it was good escapism and bad quality. Not what I'd expect from Bioware.

[SurfaceBeneath]

Dr. Peter Venkman wrote...
Because you have surveyed 98% of all of the fanbase?

No, because less than a single percent of the people who bought the game post in these forums and on EVERY other gaming forum the game is universally praised.

Questioning my phrasing doesn't make it any less true. Go out there and find me another forum where a large segment of the community prefers the first game to the second. They just don't exist.

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

Dr. Peter Venkman wrote...
Because you have surveyed 98% of all of the fanbase?

No, because less than a single percent of the people who bought the game post in these forums and on EVERY other gaming forum the game is universally praised.

Questioning my phrasing doesn't make it any less true. Go out there and find me another forum where a large segment of the community prefers the first game to the second. They just don't exist.

I'm not going to fall for your fallacious argument of attempting to prove a negative. You do NOT know that "the forum runs counter to 98% of the playerbase". Don't make statistics up and expect your "prove me wrong" argument to hold any water. It's silly.

Modifié par Dr. Peter Venkman, 17 février 2010 - 03:31 .

[SurfaceBeneath]

Rilke21 wrote...

Revan and Frotality nailed it with the Avatar comparison. I actually enjoyed Avatar, but it was definitely short on substance. It was flashy and great to look at, and I didn't even mind the Pocahontas plot...but the characters couldn't have been more linear and the story couldn't have been more predictable. You can say the same for ME2, except that the plot was far more thin and the characters were even more transparent (at least Jack, Miranda, Jacob, Grunt and every NPC that was thrown in from ME1 were more transparent.) All in all, it was good escapism and bad quality. Not what I'd expect from Bioware.

Which is ironic because while Mass Effect was a lot of things, it definitely was not subtle or deep. The plot moved along fairly typically up to the "big reveal" and from there ended in a fairly expected fashion. There weren't any deep moral quandaries or hard decisions (besides Bring Down the Sky) and the characters were rather one dimensional save for Wrex. ME2 took a lot of risks, focused its lense on the ME universe a lot wider, and still had an undercurrent of mystery. Its characters were complex and flawed individuals who had some very powerful storylines associated with them. Mass Effect 2 wasn't afraid to stop spoon feeding its audience expecting them to "get it".

[Mikazukinoyaiba2]

How about you both shupt up and stop pretending to be the figures of authority as to how many people like this game or think ME2 is better than ME1, even then it is still just opinion.



When ME3 comes out there will be arguments by nostalgia geeks on how ME2 was better then ME3.

[SurfaceBeneath]

Dr. Peter Venkman wrote...
I'm not going to fall for your fallacious argument of attempting to prove a negative. You do NOT know that "the forum runs counter to 98% of the playerbase". Don't make statistics up and expect your "prove me wrong" argument to hold any water. It's silly.

I told you it's bright outside. I'm not going to hold your hand and show you out the door. If you want to go and see for yourself, do so. If not, so be it.

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

Dr. Peter Venkman wrote...
I'm not going to fall for your fallacious argument of attempting to prove a negative. You do NOT know that "the forum runs counter to 98% of the playerbase". Don't make statistics up and expect your "prove me wrong" argument to hold any water. It's silly.

I told you it's bright outside. I'm not going to hold your hand and show you out the door. If you want to go and see for yourself, do so. If not, so be it.

"I like making up statistics to support my argument despite having no evidence whatsoever. I also don't understand the concept of arguing about my own viewpoints doesn't necessitate any kind of stance on the issue from my opponent. I'm just going to take my ball and go home"

Modifié par Dr. Peter Venkman, 17 février 2010 - 03:46 .

[Azazel005]

It's an interesting perspective, certainly presented better then a great many "soap box" perspectives that are similar to it Rilke.



There is certainly some plot contrivance, though on this I think many of us remember Mass Effect one more fondly that it's actually delivery. The plot there can often strain itself and joyously hides amidst a great of mystery. Mass Effect 2 is forced to continue on the ideas, progress them and give them more context. We are now beyond the "mystery" who and whens of the threat and leaning towards the why and hows, this will often deliver disappointment as the mystery is usually far more exciting and only leashed by your imagination.



I felt for the most part the issues and progression was strong, even if the writing was "bitsy" (lacking in a sort of conversational coherency) and sometimes outright abrubt (yes dear Liara, we are looking at you), Though the mirror reflection of Wrex, Mordin Solus dragged us through he's pride and pains over the genophage facing the consequences from completely the other side. The Geth and the Quarians are pushed more clearly into view one desperate to return to a normal life the other equally desperate to understand a world chiefly populated with people who could never accept them. That all worked for me and I found it a compelling extenstion.



You mention the begining of the sequel which I saw not as a plot device but the common part of the heroes journey "Death/Descent into the underworld". Once he stood as a prominent alliance and council figure, now he is dragged through death into a shadowy role with a group he had previously tried to stop. He is still trying to save the galaxy but the galaxies perception of him has shifted (though I think the references used by other characters when dealing with him in this matter are sadly lacking).



Finally facing a question of means and ends.



I certainly understand your's and many others frustrations regards item drops or more rather a feeling of reward and choice that is removed via the new weapons system. It's my hope that the weapons will follow the armour route in the sequel and be a modular system allowing that feeling of attatchment and broadening the amount of armour/weapon pieces and research projects to give you a greater feeling of "sqeueeeee" when you do find them. I think that would go a long way to reducing a certain flat that some parts of ME2 seems to have.



I certainly hope that the sequel grows on you (as the original did for many, I do recall how fiercely it was attacked by many when it was released but as time has gone on seems to be remembered quite fondly), and that Mass Effect 3 can live up to all our expectations.

[SurfaceBeneath]

Dr. Peter Venkman wrote...

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

Dr. Peter Venkman wrote...
I'm not going to fall for your fallacious argument of attempting to prove a negative. You do NOT know that "the forum runs counter to 98% of the playerbase". Don't make statistics up and expect your "prove me wrong" argument to hold any water. It's silly.

I told you it's bright outside. I'm not going to hold your hand and show you out the door. If you want to go and see for yourself, do so. If not, so be it.

"I like making up statistics to support my argument despite having no evidence whatsoever. I also don't understand the concept of arguing about my own viewpoints doesn't necessitate any kind of stance on the issue from my opponent. I'm just going to take my ball and go home"

By the way, how ya enjoying ME2? I'm on my 4th playthrough and I'm still not bored of it. Best game Bioware's done since BG2 (possibly better). I can't wait for ME3, since I know Bioware is going to show the same quality of progression that they did from ME1 to ME2.

[SurfaceBeneath]

Azazel005 wrote...

It's an interesting perspective, certainly presented better then a great many "soap box" perspectives that are similar to it Rilke.

There is certainly some plot contrivance, though on this I think many of us remember Mass Effect one more fondly that it's actually delivery. The plot there can often strain itself and joyously hides amidst a great of mystery. Mass Effect 2 is forced to continue on the ideas, progress them and give them more context. We are now beyond the "mystery" who and whens of the threat and leaning towards the why and hows, this will often deliver disappointment as the mystery is usually far more exciting and only leashed by your imagination.

I felt for the most part the issues and progression was strong, even if the writing was "bitsy" (lacking in a sort of conversational coherency) and sometimes outright abrubt (yes dear Liara, we are looking at you), Though the mirror reflection of Wrex, Mordin Solus dragged us through he's pride and pains over the genophage facing the consequences from completely the other side. The Geth and the Quarians are pushed more clearly into view one desperate to return to a normal life the other equally desperate to understand a world chiefly populated with people who could never accept them. That all worked for me and I found it a compelling extenstion.

You mention the begining of the sequel which I saw not as a plot device but the common part of the heroes journey "Death/Descent into the underworld". Once he stood as a prominent alliance and council figure, now he is dragged through death into a shadowy role with a group he had previously tried to stop. He is still trying to save the galaxy but the galaxies perception of him has shifted (though I think the references used by other characters when dealing with him in this matter are sadly lacking).

Finally facing a question of means and ends.

I certainly understand your's and many others frustrations regards item drops or more rather a feeling of reward and choice that is removed via the new weapons system. It's my hope that the weapons will follow the armour route in the sequel and be a modular system allowing that feeling of attatchment and broadening the amount of armour/weapon pieces and research projects to give you a greater feeling of "sqeueeeee" when you do find them. I think that would go a long way to reducing a certain flat that some parts of ME2 seems to have.

I certainly hope that the sequel grows on you (as the original did for many, I do recall how fiercely it was attacked by many when it was released but as time has gone on seems to be remembered quite fondly), and that Mass Effect 3 can live up to all our expectations.

Very well said. Agreed 100%

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

Dr. Peter Venkman wrote...

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

Dr. Peter Venkman wrote...
I'm not going to fall for your fallacious argument of attempting to prove a negative. You do NOT know that "the forum runs counter to 98% of the playerbase". Don't make statistics up and expect your "prove me wrong" argument to hold any water. It's silly.

I told you it's bright outside. I'm not going to hold your hand and show you out the door. If you want to go and see for yourself, do so. If not, so be it.

"I like making up statistics to support my argument despite having no evidence whatsoever. I also don't understand the concept of arguing about my own viewpoints doesn't necessitate any kind of stance on the issue from my opponent. I'm just going to take my ball and go home"

By the way, how ya enjoying ME2? I'm on my 4th playthrough and I'm still not bored of it. Best game Bioware's done since BG2 (possibly better). I can't wait for ME3, since I know Bioware is going to show the same quality of progression that they did from ME1 to ME2.

Quit playing ME2. Felt way too "gamey" on the harder difficulties with the way that you could only use hard-counters. Made for a lot of cookie-cutter moments and not a whole lot immersion. There is not enough distinction between the classes for my liking. ME2 feels more like a shooter (which is my gaming background) with some RPG elements, as opposed to games like KotoR, BG, DA:O, etc. I don't know why you think it's as good as BG2, it's nowhere close. I liked the storyline and universe they created for ME, and in ME 2 it is done very well, however I don't like the game that came along with it.

Modifié par Dr. Peter Venkman, 17 février 2010 - 04:02 .

[Rilke21]

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

Which is ironic because while Mass Effect was a lot of things, it definitely was not subtle or deep. The plot moved along fairly typically up to the "big reveal" and from there ended in a fairly expected fashion. There weren't any deep moral quandaries or hard decisions (besides Bring Down the Sky) and the characters were rather one dimensional save for Wrex. ME2 took a lot of risks, focused its lense on the ME universe a lot wider, and still had an undercurrent of mystery. Its characters were complex and flawed individuals who had some very powerful storylines associated with them. Mass Effect 2 wasn't afraid to stop spoon feeding its audience expecting them to "get it".

I have to disagree with you, Surface. ME1 introduced a highly-detailed, creative and innovative universe to explore, which is unprecedented for a video game (and extremely rare for just about every other form of media.) The mass-extinction story line required a little suspension of disbelief, but the charismatic villans, the race-to-solve-the-puzzle storytelling and the interesting characters (possible exception of Kaiden and Ashley granted) were enough to keep my on my toes for two solid playthroughs. After I had my fill of the main story, I was able to look past the cookie-cutter side mission locals and enjoy the well-scripted side stories.

Mass Effect 2 just rode on ME1's coat tails. The complex and flawed characters mostly struck me as cliche or unbelievable. (Did anyone really take Jack seriously? "I'm a cold-hearted ****! But sometimes I just feel like a little girl again. ****, it's complicated." Seriously...seriously?)

And hey, aren't you being a little snippy with the good doctor?

[TuringPoint]

 I loved the game, but on the RPG count I really do think they missed the point, and missed the option to make an awesome game "completely epic," or something comparable.

The change wasn't nearly as bad as Deus Ex  to Deus Ex 2 though.  THAT was truly abominable.  There was nothing even remotely redeeming about that bait and switch.

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

Rilke21 wrote...

And hey, aren't you being a little snippy with the good doctor?

[jamoau]

Nicely put OP.



The story kept my interest until the lame ending, but in effect, most of the story was simply learning about your fellow psychos, err teammates.



The game caters mostly to the shooter crowd now and having played shooters since Doom, ME1 was a breath of fresh air, warts and all.



I played ME1 many times but I'm finding myself struggling to finish a second play through with ME2, I'm just losing interest. Bottom line, I enjoyed my time more with ME1.