124 réponses à ce sujet

[Maxiric]

I have the answer to all the problems brought up in this thread.



Space Magic.

[WrexShepard]

Commisar_V wrote...

I still don't remember the actual
Mass Effect being used in the guns, I was under the impression that
they were railguns or coilguns.

They are railguns, but augmented by Mass Effect. See this codex entry:

A mass accelerator propels a solid metal slug using precisely-controlled electromagnetic
attraction and repulsion. The slug is designed to squash or shatter on
impact, increasing the energy it transfers to the target. If this were
not the case, it would simply punch a hole right through, doing minimal
damage.
Accelerator design was revolutionized by element zero.
A slug lightened by a mass effect field can be accelerated to greater
speeds, permitting projectile velocities that were previously
unattainable. If accelerated to a high enough velocity, a simple paint
chip can impact with the same destructive force as a nuclear weapon.
However, mass accelerators produce recoil equal to their impact energy.
This is mitigated somewhat by the mass effect fields that rounds are
suspended within, but weapon recoil is still the prime limiting factor
on slug velocity.

Raezaiel wrote...

element zero is only the unobtainium used to lower mass not explain how bullets suddenly gain energy.

Think about it. To alter something's mass conventionally requires a great deal of energy. Something that does it effortlessly with only a simple electrical charge is essentially a free energy machine. 

Anything that breaks the equation E=MCsquared is essentially a free energy machine.

When the slug leaves the field, it retains its velocity but regains its mass, adjusted for its current velocity and acceleration.

Maxiric wrote...

I have the answer to all the problems brought up in this thread.

Space Magic.

Essentially yes, that's what Mass Effect fields are.

Modifié par WrexShepard, 03 février 2010 - 12:49 .

[Raezaiel]

If accelerated to a high enough velocity, a simple paint

chip can impact with the same destructive force as a nuclear weapon.



that part of the codex is false false false, but if they just want to gloss over with space magic fine. they could have easily use conventional weapons and left mass effect for space travel and biotic stuff. because retaining the same velocity when your mass was increased back to normal would most certainly be exactly as deadly as the codex says, however, increasing your mass back to normal would lower your velocity proportionally. =(

[Myrmedus]

The reality is that no matter what you do to the mass of the bullet it won't produce a more 'energetic' reaction, let's put it that way. The only way it would improve damage is if it were ballistically designed or it were injected with energy (ie. a sort of hybrid mass effect/rail gun effect). Otherwise, all it'll be useful for is allowing projectiles to travel further.

[Myrmedus]

Raezaiel wrote...

If accelerated to a high enough velocity, a simple paint
chip can impact with the same destructive force as a nuclear weapon.

I'm not sure I agree with this. Firstly, the paint chip would simply break apart under the stress because its structural integrity wouldn't hold. In addition, even if it made it virtually all of the destructive force will impact on the paint chip and not the target

People seem to be forgetting the integrity of molecular bonds in the projectile in these arguments...the projectile actually has to hold in order to release all of its energy in a high power reaction. If the projectile doesn't hold the KE will simply dissipate.

When it comes to stuff like this we're not only considering KE now but also Power. Power is what produces an 'explosion'...it doesn't matter if there's googleplexes of energy being released it won't result in an explosion if the release is slow paced, it has to all be released within a short time frame and for that to happen the object has to retain the energy until that point.

Modifié par Myrmedus, 03 février 2010 - 12:54 .

[Raezaiel]

I actually think the mass effect field would work great for a space weapon at sublight speeds if they INCREASED the mass of an object to a very large size, then were able to impart a greater amount of energy into it and then removed the field letting a bullet go incredibly fast.

[WrexShepard]

Raezaiel wrote...

If accelerated to a high enough velocity, a simple paint
chip can impact with the same destructive force as a nuclear weapon.

that
part of the codex is false false false, but if they just want to gloss
over with space magic fine. they could have easily use conventional
weapons and left mass effect for space travel and biotic stuff. because
retaining the same velocity when your mass was increased back to normal
would most certainly be exactly as deadly as the codex says, however,
increasing your mass back to normal would lower your velocity
proportionally. =(

In any other circumstance I would agree, but within Mass Effect fields standard physics does not apply. I can't stress this enough. When the mass "returns to normal" it is as if the mass was never lowered in the first place. The lowered mass is ONLY true within the mass effect field. The velocity it gained within however remains. It's pointless to try to argue against this since it's only true in a fictional context because of a material that could not possibly exist.

Myrmedus wrote...

The reality is that no matter what you do to the mass of the bullet it won't produce a more 'energetic' reaction, let's put it that way. The only way it would improve damage is if it were ballistically designed or it were injected with energy (ie. a sort of hybrid mass effect/rail gun effect). Otherwise, all it'll be useful for is allowing projectiles to travel further.

The weapons are already hybrid ME/Railguns. Energy IS injected by the nature of mass effect fields being free energy machines.

Consider it like this. You accelerate a car to 100 miles per hour. It requires a certain amount of energy to accomplish this.

With a mass effect field, the same car can be accelerated to the same speed with the amount of energy required to accelerate it to 10MPH conventionally. However, upon entering normal space, the car is moving with the same physical properties AS IF it was accelerated to that speed conventionally.

[Myrmedus]

Raezaiel wrote...

I actually think the mass effect field would work great for a space weapon at sublight speeds if they INCREASED the mass of an object to a very large size, then were able to impart a greater amount of energy into it and then removed the field letting a bullet go incredibly fast.

Indeed, but in the end it always comes down to the same two things as you've said - either:

1) Energy has to actually be injected into the projectile (and it doesn't break apart which suggests high density).

2) Actually manipulating space-time density which is pretty 'out there' kind of metaphysics at the moment xD.

[Myrmedus]

WrexShepard wrote...

Myrmedus wrote...

The reality is that no matter what you do to the mass of the bullet it won't produce a more 'energetic' reaction, let's put it that way. The only way it would improve damage is if it were ballistically designed or it were injected with energy (ie. a sort of hybrid mass effect/rail gun effect). Otherwise, all it'll be useful for is allowing projectiles to travel further.

The weapons are already hybrid ME/Railguns. Energy IS injected by the nature of mass effect fields being free energy machines.

Consider it like this. You accelerate a car to 100 miles per hour. It requires a certain amount of energy to accomplish this.

With a mass effect field, the same car can be accelerated to the same speed with the amount of energy required to accelerate it to 10MPH conventionally. However, upon entering normal space, the car is moving with the same physical properties AS IF it was accelerated to that speed conventionally.

Mass Effect field =/= Railgun, this is the precise problem with the argument and why we've got crossed wires.

Mass Effect fields are purely for reducing an object's mass, nothing more. They improve velocity purely by reducing the mass of the object but the kinetic energy is untouched. If you noticed whenever your ship gets propelled by a Mass Relay it's already travelling at a high velocity, the Mass Relay simply reduces the ship's mass and therefore the ship essentially propels ITSELF at a higher velocity. There's no energy induction I don't believe? In layman's terms it basically allows you to get "more bang for your buck" where velocity and kinetic energy are concerned, it doesn't however actually hand you over "more bucks".

Railguns actually inject energy through electromagnets, as you've said, and therefore they DO increase a projectile's damage.

The problem is that people in this thread are trying to rationalize a projectile doing more damage/having higher KE purely on the basis of a Mass Effect field reducing their mass to improve velocity - this is incorrect. The kinetic energy remains exactly the same and thus so does the 'damage' the projectile does. Fortunately the weapons in ME don't use Mass Effect fields I don't believe but purely use mass acceleration technology (ie. Railguns).

It seems we're got some crossed wires going on I think

Modifié par Myrmedus, 03 février 2010 - 01:04 .

[aaniadyen]

Raezaiel wrote...

I actually think the mass effect field would work great for a space weapon at sublight speeds if they INCREASED the mass of an object to a very large size, then were able to impart a greater amount of energy into it and then removed the field letting a bullet go incredibly fast.

They do this in large ships which have powerful enough mass effect cores to spare the energy. Some ships have cores dedicated solely to this, I think.

[Myrmedus]

aaniadyen wrote...

Raezaiel wrote...

I actually think the mass effect field would work great for a space weapon at sublight speeds if they INCREASED the mass of an object to a very large size, then were able to impart a greater amount of energy into it and then removed the field letting a bullet go incredibly fast.

They do this in large ships which have powerful enough mass effect cores to spare the energy. Some ships have cores dedicated solely to this, I think.

The mass manipulation still wouldn't produce a more devastating weapon just a much faster travel time. Like you say the ships have this in their cores because it's a pure velocity consideration - so it's great there - but for projectile damage the only improvement would be from the energy transfer - the mass effect field itself would be irrelevant.

Modifié par Myrmedus, 03 février 2010 - 01:06 .

[WrexShepard]

Myrmedus wrote...

WrexShepard wrote...

Myrmedus wrote...

The reality is that no matter what you do to the mass of the bullet it won't produce a more 'energetic' reaction, let's put it that way. The only way it would improve damage is if it were ballistically designed or it were injected with energy (ie. a sort of hybrid mass effect/rail gun effect). Otherwise, all it'll be useful for is allowing projectiles to travel further.

The weapons are already hybrid ME/Railguns. Energy IS injected by the nature of mass effect fields being free energy machines.

Consider it like this. You accelerate a car to 100 miles per hour. It requires a certain amount of energy to accomplish this.

With a mass effect field, the same car can be accelerated to the same speed with the amount of energy required to accelerate it to 10MPH conventionally. However, upon entering normal space, the car is moving with the same physical properties AS IF it was accelerated to that speed conventionally.

Mass Effect field =/= Railgun, this is the precise problem with the argument and why we've got crossed wires.

Mass Effect fields are purely for reducing an object's mass, nothing more. They improve velocity purely by reducing the mass of the object but the kinetic energy is untouched.

Railguns actually inject energy through electromagnets, as you've said, and therefore they DO increase a projectile's damage.

The problem is that people in this thread are trying to rationalize a projectile doing more damage/having higher KE purely on the basis of a Mass Effect field reducing their mass to improve velocity - this is incorrect. The kinetic energy remains exactly the same and thus so does the 'damage' the projectile does. Fortunately the weapons in ME don't use Mass Effect fields I don't believe but purely use mass acceleration technology (ie. Railguns).

It seems we're got some crossed wires going on I think

No I don't have crossed wires, you do. Guns in ME are hybrid ME/railgun weapons. It says right in the codex they operate on the principles of a railgun but were revolutionized by Mass Effect. Reas the codex entry again and you'll see I'm right. Read the Codex! (Except for the part about the paint chip, that part's stupid.) Increased velocity does in fact mean increased KE. The mass is only reduced within the Mass Effect field, which is an area of warped space. In this regard you could say that the mass reduction is "imaginary" in relation to normal space, but is quite real in ME warped space.

I'll say it again- weapons in ME do use railgun tech, AUGMENTED by ME tech.

[aaniadyen]

Myrmedus wrote...

WrexShepard wrote...

Myrmedus wrote...

The reality is that no matter what you do to the mass of the bullet it won't produce a more 'energetic' reaction, let's put it that way. The only way it would improve damage is if it were ballistically designed or it were injected with energy (ie. a sort of hybrid mass effect/rail gun effect). Otherwise, all it'll be useful for is allowing projectiles to travel further.

The weapons are already hybrid ME/Railguns. Energy IS injected by the nature of mass effect fields being free energy machines.

Consider it like this. You accelerate a car to 100 miles per hour. It requires a certain amount of energy to accomplish this.

With a mass effect field, the same car can be accelerated to the same speed with the amount of energy required to accelerate it to 10MPH conventionally. However, upon entering normal space, the car is moving with the same physical properties AS IF it was accelerated to that speed conventionally.

Mass Effect field =/= Railgun, this is the precise problem with the argument and why we've got crossed wires.

Mass Effect fields are purely for reducing an object's mass, nothing more. They improve velocity purely by reducing the mass of the object but the kinetic energy is untouched. If you noticed whenever your ship gets propelled by a Mass Relay it's already travelling at a high velocity, the Mass Relay simply reduces the ship's mass and therefore the ship essentially propels ITSELF at a higher velocity. There's no energy induction I don't believe? In layman's terms it basically allows you to get "more bang for your buck" where velocity and kinetic energy are concerned, it doesn't however actually hand you over "more bucks".

Railguns actually inject energy through electromagnets, as you've said, and therefore they DO increase a projectile's damage.

The problem is that people in this thread are trying to rationalize a projectile doing more damage/having higher KE purely on the basis of a Mass Effect field reducing their mass to improve velocity - this is incorrect. The kinetic energy remains exactly the same and thus so does the 'damage' the projectile does. Fortunately the weapons in ME don't use Mass Effect fields I don't believe but purely use mass acceleration technology (ie. Railguns).

It seems we're got some crossed wires going on I think

"A mass accelerator propels a solid metal slug using precisely-controlled electromagnetic attraction and repulsion. The slug is designed to squash or shatter on impact, increasing the energy it transfers to the target. If this were not the case, it would simply punch a hole right through, doing minimal damage.
Accelerator design was revolutionized by element zero. A slug lightened by a mass effect field can be accelerated to greater speeds, permitting projectile velocities that were previously unattainable. If accelerated to a high enough velocity, a simple paint chip can impact with the same destructive force as a nuclear weapon. However, mass accelerators produce recoil equal to their impact energy. This is mitigated somewhat by the mass effect fields that rounds are suspended within, but weapon recoil is still the prime limiting factor on slug velocity." -From codex regarding weapons

So...it's essentially a railgun which is powered by element zero instead of other sources of electricity.

[WrexShepard]

aaniadyen wrote...



"A mass accelerator propels a solid metal slug using precisely-controlled electromagnetic attraction and repulsion. The slug is designed to squash or shatter on impact, increasing the energy it transfers to the target. If this were not the case, it would simply punch a hole right through, doing minimal damage.
Accelerator design was revolutionized by element zero. A slug lightened by a mass effect field can be accelerated to greater speeds, permitting projectile velocities that were previously unattainable. If accelerated to a high enough velocity, a simple paint chip can impact with the same destructive force as a nuclear weapon. However, mass accelerators produce recoil equal to their impact energy. This is mitigated somewhat by the mass effect fields that rounds are suspended within, but weapon recoil is still the prime limiting factor on slug velocity." -From codex regarding weapons

So...it's essentially a railgun which is powered by element zero instead of other sources of electricity.

Nope. It still uses conventional electromagnets, however their job is made easier by the ME field generated by the weapon's Eezo core.

Modifié par WrexShepard, 03 février 2010 - 01:13 .

[aaniadyen]

WrexShepard wrote...

aaniadyen wrote...



"A mass accelerator propels a solid metal slug using precisely-controlled electromagnetic attraction and repulsion. The slug is designed to squash or shatter on impact, increasing the energy it transfers to the target. If this were not the case, it would simply punch a hole right through, doing minimal damage.
Accelerator design was revolutionized by element zero. A slug lightened by a mass effect field can be accelerated to greater speeds, permitting projectile velocities that were previously unattainable. If accelerated to a high enough velocity, a simple paint chip can impact with the same destructive force as a nuclear weapon. However, mass accelerators produce recoil equal to their impact energy. This is mitigated somewhat by the mass effect fields that rounds are suspended within, but weapon recoil is still the prime limiting factor on slug velocity." -From codex regarding weapons

So...it's essentially a railgun which is powered by element zero instead of other sources of electricity.

Nope. It still uses conventional electromagnets, however their job is made easier by the ME field generated by the weapon's Eezo core.

Source? It's not that I don't trust you, It's feasible...just never heard that.

Modifié par aaniadyen, 03 février 2010 - 01:16 .

[WrexShepard]

aaniadyen wrote...



Source? It's not that I don't trust you, It's feasible...just never heard that.

Source is right in the entry you posted.
"A mass accelerator propels a solid metal slug using precisely-controlled electromagnetic attraction and repulsion."

Electromagnetic Attraction and Repulsion = Railgun.

[aaniadyen]

WrexShepard wrote...

aaniadyen wrote...



Source? It's not that I don't trust you, It's feasible...just never heard that.

Source is right in the entry you posted.
"A mass accelerator propels a solid metal slug using precisely-controlled electromagnetic attraction and repulsion."

Electromagnetic Attraction and Repulsion = Railgun.

-.- Wow...I went back and reread it. I cannot brain today...I has the dumb.

[WrexShepard]

aaniadyen wrote...

WrexShepard wrote...

aaniadyen wrote...



Source? It's not that I don't trust you, It's feasible...just never heard that.

Source is right in the entry you posted.
"A mass accelerator propels a solid metal slug using precisely-controlled electromagnetic attraction and repulsion."

Electromagnetic Attraction and Repulsion = Railgun.

-.- Wow...I went back and reread it. I cannot brain today...I has the dumb.

S'okay bro. We all have those days.

[Myrmedus]

aaniadyen wrote...

Myrmedus wrote...

WrexShepard wrote...

Myrmedus wrote...

The reality is that no matter what you do to the mass of the bullet it won't produce a more 'energetic' reaction, let's put it that way. The only way it would improve damage is if it were ballistically designed or it were injected with energy (ie. a sort of hybrid mass effect/rail gun effect). Otherwise, all it'll be useful for is allowing projectiles to travel further.

The weapons are already hybrid ME/Railguns. Energy IS injected by the nature of mass effect fields being free energy machines.

Consider it like this. You accelerate a car to 100 miles per hour. It requires a certain amount of energy to accomplish this.

With a mass effect field, the same car can be accelerated to the same speed with the amount of energy required to accelerate it to 10MPH conventionally. However, upon entering normal space, the car is moving with the same physical properties AS IF it was accelerated to that speed conventionally.

Mass Effect field =/= Railgun, this is the precise problem with the argument and why we've got crossed wires.

Mass Effect fields are purely for reducing an object's mass, nothing more. They improve velocity purely by reducing the mass of the object but the kinetic energy is untouched. If you noticed whenever your ship gets propelled by a Mass Relay it's already travelling at a high velocity, the Mass Relay simply reduces the ship's mass and therefore the ship essentially propels ITSELF at a higher velocity. There's no energy induction I don't believe? In layman's terms it basically allows you to get "more bang for your buck" where velocity and kinetic energy are concerned, it doesn't however actually hand you over "more bucks".

Railguns actually inject energy through electromagnets, as you've said, and therefore they DO increase a projectile's damage.

The problem is that people in this thread are trying to rationalize a projectile doing more damage/having higher KE purely on the basis of a Mass Effect field reducing their mass to improve velocity - this is incorrect. The kinetic energy remains exactly the same and thus so does the 'damage' the projectile does. Fortunately the weapons in ME don't use Mass Effect fields I don't believe but purely use mass acceleration technology (ie. Railguns).

It seems we're got some crossed wires going on I think

"A mass accelerator propels a solid metal slug using precisely-controlled electromagnetic attraction and repulsion. The slug is designed to squash or shatter on impact, increasing the energy it transfers to the target. If this were not the case, it would simply punch a hole right through, doing minimal damage.
Accelerator design was revolutionized by element zero. A slug lightened by a mass effect field can be accelerated to greater speeds, permitting projectile velocities that were previously unattainable. If accelerated to a high enough velocity, a simple paint chip can impact with the same destructive force as a nuclear weapon. However, mass accelerators produce recoil equal to their impact energy. This is mitigated somewhat by the mass effect fields that rounds are suspended within, but weapon recoil is still the prime limiting factor on slug velocity." -From codex regarding weapons

So...it's essentially a railgun which is powered by element zero instead of other sources of electricity.

The railgun part of it will improve its damage, the mass effect field part will have no part in its destructive power whatsoever nor will it effect the power of the recoil reaction (bare with me on explaining that). Recoil is an energetic reaction therefore if you try to propel a lower mass object at higher velocity you will still get the same recoil. Even if the eezo directly absorbs kinetic energy (ie. the recoil) that's still energy lost from the projectile therefore resulting in a less energetic reaction

However! What it would be useful for is making it so the weapon can be fired without taking Shepard's arm off if it's able to reduce the power of the reaction - this would be akin to changing a punch to a push with your fist over 10 seconds.

So while I know you're just quoting the codex I'm going to say that they're completely wrong about mass effect fields improving damage through reducing recoil, though it would still have beneficial applications in weapon use - they're especially on the paint chip nuclear weapon thing because it's not possible as the object would break down from the energy long before it could release it in a powerful reaction.

But I give them kudos for going into some detail here at least ^^ - but when it comes to projectile damage it's all in the POWAH (no seriously) and not the pure energy. That energy has to be released within a short space of time to produce a damaging reaction, if it comes out slowly then it doesn't deform anything.

Modifié par Myrmedus, 03 février 2010 - 01:29 .

[WrexShepard]

Myrmedus wrote...


The railgun part of it will improve its damage, the mass effect field part will have no part in its destructive power whatsoever nor will it effect the recoil. Recoil is an energetic reaction therefore if you try to propel a lower mass object at higher velocity you will still get the same recoil.

So while I know you're just quoting the codex I'm going to say that they're completely wrong  - especially on the paint chip nuclear weapon thing because it's not possible, at least not with a mass effect field as has been described.

I told you not to read the stupid paint chip part. It was just to illustrate the point that making things go really fast increases their kinetic energy.


The Mass Effect field means the electromagnetic railgun needs less energy to do its job. The Railgun is still doing most of the work yes. However, the only way for it to work the way it does is with a free energy machine, namely, element zero. Do we now understand each other?

[Myrmedus]

WrexShepard wrote...

Myrmedus wrote...


The railgun part of it will improve its damage, the mass effect field part will have no part in its destructive power whatsoever nor will it effect the recoil. Recoil is an energetic reaction therefore if you try to propel a lower mass object at higher velocity you will still get the same recoil.

So while I know you're just quoting the codex I'm going to say that they're completely wrong  - especially on the paint chip nuclear weapon thing because it's not possible, at least not with a mass effect field as has been described.

I told you not to read the stupid paint chip part. It was just to illustrate the point that making things go really fast increases their kinetic energy.


The Mass Effect field means the electromagnetic railgun needs less energy to do its job. The Railgun is still doing most of the work yes. However, the only way for it to work the way it does is with a free energy machine, namely, element zero. Do we now understand each other?

No we don't because a mass effect field doesn't have any effect on the energy required for it to do its job. Let me put it simply: changing the mass of an object has absolutely no bearing on its energy injection or power reaction whatsoever, and those are the only two things that matter when it comes to this.

Whether the element zero helps is a different story - oh and I didn't see your above post about the paint chip so w/e.

Also, we're at crossed wires because at no point was I disagreeing that a mass acceleration would increase the damage of a projectile, of course it would, the only point I disagree is a mass effect having any role in that whatsoever. At best it would reduce the power of the recoil reaction. The only thing its good for is speed but not energy production or power reaction.

In the end the topic title is "how does a mass effect gun do... anything?" so posting purely on topic the answer it doesn't do anything except recoil damage. It does nothing, I repeat nothing, to increase the weapon's damage.

Modifié par Myrmedus, 03 février 2010 - 01:35 .

[WrexShepard]

Myrmedus wrote...

WrexShepard wrote...

Myrmedus wrote...


The railgun part of it will improve its damage, the mass effect field part will have no part in its destructive power whatsoever nor will it effect the recoil. Recoil is an energetic reaction therefore if you try to propel a lower mass object at higher velocity you will still get the same recoil.

So while I know you're just quoting the codex I'm going to say that they're completely wrong  - especially on the paint chip nuclear weapon thing because it's not possible, at least not with a mass effect field as has been described.

I told you not to read the stupid paint chip part. It was just to illustrate the point that making things go really fast increases their kinetic energy.


The Mass Effect field means the electromagnetic railgun needs less energy to do its job. The Railgun is still doing most of the work yes. However, the only way for it to work the way it does is with a free energy machine, namely, element zero. Do we now understand each other?

No we don't because a mass effect field doesn't have any effect on the energy required for it to do its job. Let me put it simply: changing the mass of an object has absolutely no bearing on its energy injection or power reaction whatsoever, and those are the only two things that matter when it comes to this.

Whether the element zero helps is a different story - oh and I didn't see your above post about the paint chip so w/e.

Also, we're at crossed wires because at no point was I disagreeing that a mass acceleration would increase the damage of a projectile, of course it would, the only point I disagree is a mass effect having any role in that whatsoever. At best it would reduce the power of the recoil reaction.

Excuse me, but the mass reduction is what allows the projectiles to be accelerated to such velocities with such low energy consumption in the first place.

As I said, it is as if a car has been accelerated to 100MPH with the energy required to normally bring it to 10MPH. However, the car behaves like a car going 100MPH upon leaving the ME field.

[Classicismo]

I had a whole witty paragraph about how many times the laws of physics have been altered as our understanding of the universe is altered, and so really; this discussion is completely pointless as the general concensus on what's physically 'possible' could be vastly different in 200 years time (for example; what kind of effect does element zero have on the way mass and acceleration and force impact each other) .... then I realized that this is a videogame forum, and also that i'm hungry at this present moment in time, I'm going to maccy d's.

[Myrmedus]

classicismo wrote...

I had a whole witty paragraph about how many times the laws of physics have been altered as our understanding of the universe is altered, and so really; this discussion is completely pointless as the general concensus on what's physically 'possible' could be vastly different in 200 years time (for example; what kind of effect does element zero have on the way mass and acceleration and force impact each other) .... then I realized that this is a videogame forum, and also that i'm hungry at this present moment in time, I'm going to maccy d's.

This is the only part that can't be argued to or fro indeed. What element zero does is pure, PURE sci-fi so I won't argue whether it can help or not because it's not explicitly stated what the hell it really does.

However in terms of pure mass effect fields as they're DESCRIBED at least, they'd have no impact on a weapon's damage.

WrexShepard wrote...

Excuse me, but the mass reduction is what allows the projectiles to be
accelerated to such velocities with such low energy consumption in the
first place.

As I said, it is as if a car has been accelerated
to 100MPH with the energy required to normally bring it to 10MPH.
However, the car behaves like a car going 100MPH upon leaving the ME
field

And that's exactly where you're wrong or BioWare are wrong and where we're having our problems.

The car would not behave as though it were still at 100MPH after leaving the ME field. The only way it would is if it absorbed additional external energy from its surroundings at that precise point. An object's velocity is based purely on two things: mass and kinetic energy. If you reduce the mass then the kinetic energy required to move at X mph is less, but if you do the opposite (which is what happens when the car leaves the mass effect field) then the opposite is true: more kinetic energy is required to maintain that X mph. If you don't get extra energy from somewhere then the car will revert back to 10mph - not instantaneously but fairly quickly. In fact I'm not even sure that BioWare disagree with this thesis as we see it all the time with ships in ME: we see ships almost 'warp' forwards when Mass Effect is engaged and when they come to their destination they slow almost instantaneously - this is the Mass Effect field being disengaged and the object returning to its normal state of velocity.

People are incorrectly interpreting Newton's Law on uniform motion - uniform motion requires the mass of the object to remain constant. If the mass changes then the law isn't viable, and here the mass changes - it's very simple, especially in astrophysics because every object's velocity is based upon how much of it is being 'pulled' around. If an object is low in mass it gets 'pulled' around by surrounding matter (planets, asteroids etc.) faster than if its high in mass (hence why planet pull meteorites to them rather than vice versa - though technically they do pull back a little but another time!)

A Newton Law that CAN hold up in this argument is each reaction having an equal and opposite reaction: if you reduce a car's mass to increase its velocity and then you do the complete opposite (put it back the way it was) you can bet the reaction will be the opposite: its velocity will drop.

Modifié par Myrmedus, 03 février 2010 - 01:49 .

[aaniadyen]

WrexShepard wrote...

Myrmedus wrote...


The railgun part of it will improve its damage, the mass effect field part will have no part in its destructive power whatsoever nor will it effect the recoil. Recoil is an energetic reaction therefore if you try to propel a lower mass object at higher velocity you will still get the same recoil.

So while I know you're just quoting the codex I'm going to say that they're completely wrong  - especially on the paint chip nuclear weapon thing because it's not possible, at least not with a mass effect field as has been described.

I told you not to read the stupid paint chip part. It was just to illustrate the point that making things go really fast increases their kinetic energy.


The Mass Effect field means the electromagnetic railgun needs less energy to do its job. The Railgun is still doing most of the work yes. However, the only way for it to work the way it does is with a free energy machine, namely, element zero. Do we now understand each other?

Ohh, I get you now. That makes perfect sense.