178 réponses à ce sujet

[smudboy]

MonkeyLungs wrote...

If the Bioware staff actually took a more focussed route in the way they integrated these characters into the storyline, all the poeople arguing, "but I love these characters they are great!", would be having an even greater experience and loving the characters even more.

Completely true.

(Although I'd argue there might be less of them.)

[TrueHD]

The point, obviously, is to get all the characters and, after seeing them all on the squad selection screen, feel like a bad ass who is backed by the best the galaxy has to offer.

[meznaric]

I totally agree with the OP. Less characters would be more in terms of the story. They could have done more twists and interesting plot points. If the story had as many cool options as the characters we would have been in for a real treat.

[rabbitchannel]

TrueHD wrote...

The point, obviously, is to get all the characters and, after seeing them all on the squad selection screen, feel like a bad ass who is backed by the best the galaxy has to offer.

But the less you have, the more (presumably) elite they are. If you entered the suicide mission with all of 5 possible characters, then it'd be something akin to gods setting foot on the future blood-soaked site of a massacre.

[smudboy]

rab****annel wrote...

TrueHD wrote...

The point, obviously, is to get all the characters and, after seeing them all on the squad selection screen, feel like a bad ass who is backed by the best the galaxy has to offer.

But the less you have, the more (presumably) elite they are. If you entered the suicide mission with all of 5 possible characters, then it'd be something akin to gods setting foot on the future blood-soaked site of a massacre.

Also, the less characters, the more time (the writers) would have developing them.  Especially into the main plot.

[SurfaceBeneath]

I definitely loved the characters in ME2 more than those in the first game, however I think it is fair to say that the very large roster of characters definitely detracted from the amount of detail put into each one. I'm not sure I would have preferred a smaller roster, since I wouldn't be able to choose 4 or 5 of them to give up, but I definitely would have liked a longer game to go along with the large roster as well as more opportunities to interact with them. Also, a 4 person squad instead of 3.

[ITQuatro]

I disagree with the OP on everything. I really enjoyed having all those characters, I enjoy having their reactions and standing by me when I blow that collector ship up. That's what was lacking in ME1, though you weren't really blowing up a whole base from inside. Sure, you downed a reaper, but with the help of Alliance.

[ITQuatro]

rab****annel wrote...

TrueHD wrote...

The point, obviously, is to get all the characters and, after seeing them all on the squad selection screen, feel like a bad ass who is backed by the best the galaxy has to offer.

But the less you have, the more (presumably) elite they are. If you entered the suicide mission with all of 5 possible characters, then it'd be something akin to gods setting foot on the future blood-soaked site of a massacre.

Maybe it's just you, but this whole "feel godlike" bull**** is overplayed way too much and really is just embarrassing in the end.

I liked it more knowing you have 10 of the greatest people standing by your side downing a whole base.  Doing it alone or with 4-less people is just not fun.  If I wanted to down things by myself, I'd go play another game.  However, this is, if not, the best thing I enjoyed in ME2.

[LOLandStuff]

Now I can understand you play as Commander Shepard, first human Spectre, Savior of the Citadel and hero of humanity, but you're not that badass to storm in and save the galaxy again.
If you're a lousy leader, you can get everyone killed, yourself included.
Maybe BioWare should have made more cut-scenes with them shooting at collectors, so you can see that they don't just stand around looking pretty and letting you do all the work.
Legion - you can sell it to Cerberus if you don't want him.
Grunt - you can never open the tank and just leave him there for eternity.
Mordin - you need the lab for the upgrades.
Jack - let's just say you sided with Miranda and don't have enough paragon or renegade to talk to her, also you didn't manage to get Morinth's attention and she left you paying the drinks. Good luck with their morale and holding the bubble without having someone die.
You're a commander and you need people, you're not a wannabe adventurer who wants to make a name for himself and goes around questing with a fighter, wizard and rogue.
But you can always kill most of them and keep who you like.

Modifié par LOLandStuff, 02 mars 2010 - 03:15 .

[glacier1701]

Having read the whole thread and the points made by the OP I find that some of the things that gave me doubts about ME2 I can now voice properly. Let me make clear that I am enjoying ME2 in so far as I am now on a 5th playthrough. Thats almost as many as I have done for ME1 but unlike in ME1 where those have been spread out over 2 years this is in just about 5 weeks. Yet while enjoying the game I can see so much that could have done much better than what was finally presented to us and which can only be attributed to a prevailing attitude of 'coolness' that the developers/writers had when doing the game. It does seem that much of their critical sense was parked at the door whenever they entered in ME2.

So with the above I agree with the OP about ME2. To me it seems that they wrote the ending first and using that built up the rest of the story and characters to go with that ending. Not once did they really consider the question WHAT DO THE CHARACTERS KNOW at any point in the game. By this I mean at the beginning the 'quest' is defined WE NEED TO STOP THE COLLECTORS. The next logical step is to define HOW DO WE STOP THE COLLECTORS? At that point the logical assumption is that a trip to the Collector homeworld is going to have to be made. I mean how could we know that the number of Colletors is so small as all the evidence we have from any source is that we are dealing with an entire race and thus billions of beings. And for that either an army is going to be needed OR an elite recon group needs to be built up so that the defences can be determined and the best way to stop the Collectors reaching our space can be found. Yet despite the fact that TIM/Shepard have no information about what is beyong the Omega 4 relay a team is built up of people who mostly have NO idea of what would be needed to get information needed for a military decision to be made. We are immediately building up a team to assault a base before we get that information in game which does not happen until we go through the Omega-4 relay. In other words the developers/writer metagamed for us and in doing so started off the whole issue that the OP is writing about.

Modifié par glacier1701, 02 mars 2010 - 04:05 .

[Mlow44]

smudboy wrote...

Skilled Seeker wrote...

Um how about both? Judging by your language and posts you obviously don't like Bioware's direction.

I don't like BioWare's story or storytelling.

If both, then they're only relevant as game play characters, which is not what I'm arguing.  The point of them being in that story scene (the latter example) is to be a grunt off camera.  That means they're completely along for the ride, and you could've taken one of your 25 red shirt crew with you.

was considering staying out of this until i read this comment. which of our 25 red shirt crew is comparable to Grunt's combat ability? cuz they must be invisible, i don't see them on my ship after the Collector raid...

[UHitMeInTheEar]

I kind of think that it may have been more fun having to choose between squaddies a little more often...the choice between Samara and her daughter wasn't perfect (or that difficult) but at least it was a choice.

In ME3 I'd like to see dozens of recruitable characters but maybe 6-8 slots for them. you have to decide who you want and live with the consequences.

[shinobi602]

smudboy wrote...

But the issue is still the number of these playable characters.  Do we really need them all?  How relevant are they to the mission (that is, getting to the Collector Base and blowing them up)?  Let's take a look at ones from most useful to useless.

No we don't need them all. It's just fun. The reason we play video games....fun.

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

smudboy wrote...

Skilled Seeker wrote...

Um how about both? Judging by your language and posts you obviously don't like Bioware's direction.

I don't like BioWare's story or storytelling.

If both, then they're only relevant as game play characters, which is not what I'm arguing.  The point of them being in that story scene (the latter example) is to be a grunt off camera.  That means they're completely along for the ride, and you could've taken one of your 25 red shirt crew with you.

Well if you don't like BioWare's story or storytelling, here is a good suggestion for you, don't play bioware games.

No one is forcing you too, not your fault your too stupid to realise why there is so many diverse characters in the game so that people can choose the people they'd like in their squad over your pathetic linear driving nonsense of limitting the squad numbers down to the bare minimum.

[smudboy]

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...

Well if you don't like BioWare's story or storytelling, here is a good suggestion for you, don't play bioware games.

No one is forcing you too, not your fault your too stupid to realise why there is so many diverse characters in the game so that people can choose the people they'd like in their squad over your pathetic linear driving nonsense of limitting the squad numbers down to the bare minimum.

Fun game.  Bad story.

So you're arguing I should stop playing/writing if I dislike something?  Do you even know what critique and opinions are?

My argument: the characters are useless to the main story.  They've no motivations.  I've tried to give them some numerical value.  If the main story made sense, or if the characters were tied into it, then a) one would like the story, characters, and thus the game, more.  You've saying I'm too stupid to realize why there are so many diverse characters because you've reduced them to mere squadmates?  So if we only need 2 squadmates, what's the point of collecting 9 more?  Why not get 20 more?  Clearly, more characters is more diversity, and thus I am now more intelligent.

What pathetic linear driving nonsense?  (Although, I would argue that making a more linear story would be easier on the writers and developers to come up with better story telling.)

Less characters give developers and writers time to divert time and resources to more game, story and storytelling.  If they actually tied side-characters into the main plot, then wow: things might make sense.  Side-characters would no longer just be side-characters.

Compare this to the (basic) story and storytelling of FF6.

[smudboy]

UHitMeInTheEar wrote...

I kind of think that it may have been more fun having to choose between squaddies a little more often...the choice between Samara and her daughter wasn't perfect (or that difficult) but at least it was a choice.
In ME3 I'd like to see dozens of recruitable characters but maybe 6-8 slots for them. you have to decide who you want and live with the consequences.

True.  But the option to do so (Kill Samara) was bizarre.  We learned that Morinth likes a few things in art, music and well, death...and she's as strong as her mother, whom she's been running from all her life.  So, why would we want her again?

So if our P/R is high enough, we can take the honor-bound biotic powerhouse or her sexual predator daughter.  The option, or at least the storytelling up to it (to at least make us conflicted on who to kill) was handled poorly.

[smudboy]

Mlow44 wrote...

smudboy wrote...

Skilled Seeker wrote...

Um how about both? Judging by your language and posts you obviously don't like Bioware's direction.

I don't like BioWare's story or storytelling.

If both, then they're only relevant as game play characters, which is not what I'm arguing.  The point of them being in that story scene (the latter example) is to be a grunt off camera.  That means they're completely along for the ride, and you could've taken one of your 25 red shirt crew with you.

was considering staying out of this until i read this comment. which of our 25 red shirt crew is comparable to Grunt's combat ability? cuz they must be invisible, i don't see them on my ship after the Collector raid...

In regards to the other persons' argument, who cares about Grunt's combat ability if the reason why they're on the team is from something we never actually see?

In my argument, (and in the end game/main story), Grunt is completely useless.

[smudboy]

ITQuatro wrote...

I disagree with the OP on everything. I really enjoyed having all those characters, I enjoy having their reactions and standing by me when I blow that collector ship up. That's what was lacking in ME1, though you weren't really blowing up a whole base from inside. Sure, you downed a reaper, but with the help of Alliance.

I really enjoyed the characters, too.

I just wish they were all relevant, plot vital, not replaceable and (some) not completely useless.

[shinobi602]

smudboy wrote...

I really enjoyed the characters, too.

I just wish they were all relevant, plot vital, not replaceable and (some) not completely useless.

Not everything in the game has to be relevant to the plot. Half of the things that are fun in ME1 and 2 are the things not so vital to the story.

[KnotEngaged]

I understand what OP is trying to do, the only problem is that rewarding points to the various squad members based on 4 set criteria points is always going to come across as subjective. Why is one thing only worth .25 while another is worth .5? How can you really be sure? In the end you're ultimately making subjective decisions and trying to present them as objective. Therefore your ranking system is flawed. You can't rank them, especially with a point system. It will always be subjective, no matter what.

As for the question of there being too many squad members. I disagree. You're going on a "suicide mission", you can never have enough help on one of those. I don't care who you are, if you are the best at what you do and are willing to help me, I want you on my team, because that not only increases my chances of success, but my chances of survival.

Is every character as fleshed out as they could be? No, but for the number of squad members you have each one is their own person and quite unique in terms of their personality. Not every character has to be vital to the plot, especially not in a character driven story.

[smudboy]

KnotEngaged wrote...

I understand what OP is trying to do, the only problem is that rewarding points to the various squad members based on 4 set criteria points is always going to come across as subjective. Why is one thing only worth .25 while another is worth .5? How can you really be sure? In the end you're ultimately making subjective decisions and trying to present them as objective. Therefore your ranking system is flawed. You can't rank them, especially with a point system. It will always be subjective, no matter what.
As for the question of there being too many squad members. I disagree. You're going on a "suicide mission", you can never have enough help on one of those. I don't care who you are, if you are the best at what you do and are willing to help me, I want you on my team, because that not only increases my chances of success, but my chances of survival.
Is every character as fleshed out as they could be? No, but for the number of squad members you have each one is their own person and quite unique in terms of their personality. Not every character has to be vital to the plot, especially not in a character driven story.

It's limited, but I take suggestions, and have changed the stats accordingly.  It's hard to evaluate the usefulness and point of a character when what they're needed for isn't clearly specified.  Hell, the best I've got is freakin story continuity.  I have to evaluate them with something.  (I wouldn't even count game play.)

Yes but what kind of "suicide mission."  We simply don't know.  That does not mean you need 1000+ disposable soldiers, and the more the merrier, just because you think you might need them.  Especially if we're only granted a 3 man team: that's ridiculous.  Through the Omega-4 relay could've been a number of ships and bases, or a planet, or a series of solar systems.  The Dirty Dozen/Guns of Navarone/The Seven Samurai argument is inapplicable: we know what the goals of those stories are, and why the people are recruited.

ME2's recruitment?  Save Mordin, no rhyme or reason.

Also you're wrong in stating ME2 is a character driven story.

Plot Driven Story:
Event Occurs » Character Reacts

Character Driven Story:
Character Triggers » Event » Character Reacts

The main plot occurs via TIM.  We may start them (i.e. going to the IFF mission), but we're just following the shoddy thing along.

Every character in a well written story has a point, especially to the main plot.

[smudboy]

shinobi602 wrote...

smudboy wrote...

I really enjoyed the characters, too.

I just wish they were all relevant, plot vital, not replaceable and (some) not completely useless.

Not everything in the game has to be relevant to the plot. Half of the things that are fun in ME1 and 2 are the things not so vital to the story.

No, but ME2's story really needs it.

I'm not arguing fun.  I'm arguing why the characters are even in this story.  And as others have stated, if they were all relevant to the plot, you'd have even more fun and drama along the way.

[Bigdoser]

In my opinion mass effect 2 was fine without it.

[tropicalwave]

The assumption I see more and more of in this thread is that less characters would mean more to the story or more on the characters. I see no evidence of this. Zaeed is a prime example of this. We get no recruitment mission for him. Only a loyalty mission and then don't even really get to talk to him on the Normandy. They apparently worked on him before the game went gold and then had the time the game went gold to release to work on him and this is what we got?



I also don't see them reducing the amount of recruits and adding to the main story. Mostly becuase I can't see what more they could have added to that part of the game.



I am for more characters and more missions related to them. My biggest problem was that the whole recruit/loyalty mission felt contrived. I would like to have seen more mission releated to the characters. I am for options. I would like to have seen the recruiting not so heavily a part of the main plot.



(I have said this in other threads) I think it would have been great if you only had to recruit Moridin and then do the main plot story to suicide mission (I know it would be a short and quick game). The suicide mission might have been night impossible to do with only Mrianda, Jacob and Mordin but I'd be willing to try. And would make the feeling of needing more on your team a little higher. Also in the recruitment of the team it could have said something along the lines fo what they might bring to the table (like Tali increasing the shields).

[contown]

An attempt to bring in a new cast in every game to make sure it's still open to newcomers of the series.