178 réponses à ce sujet

[Vaenier]

Quantity over Quality. that is capitalist greed for ya.

[jkstexas2001]

I really liked all of the characters except for Jacob - who bored me somewhat.  Talking to him was like reading a manual on how to assemble a bicycle - just kidding.  I wish they made  Miranda a little more likeable.  Other than that, I liked the characters.

The main letdown I've found is that, lets say you do all the recruitment and loyalty missions, and the side missions which give you improvements - after you complete the mission to destroy the collector base - there is not that much to do. You can't leave the loyalty missions undone or in most cases someone dies - it would have been good for more storyline missions to unlock - for example:

(1) You bump into Ashley and tell her the base is destroyed, and get to change her mind
(2) Help Matsumi with another heist
(3) It comes up that Wilson was in fact paid off to kill you and you find out who
(4) You get more opportunities to help Liara NOT become like her mother than are given on Illium

It would have been nice for the Suicide mission to unlock some additional missions that were not dependent on who survived and who did not (except for Shepherd of course).

That and I wish the pseudo New Game Plus allowed you to keep your weapons and improvements but that is for another thread.

Modifié par jkstexas2001, 06 juin 2010 - 07:40 .

[smudboy]

Shandepared wrote...

smudboy wrote...


So all we really need are 4: Tali/Legion, Miranda/Jacob/Garrus, Samara-Morinth/Jack, and Mordin.  And that still sounds like too many.  Truly: some new characters can be combined.

I agree completely and personally, this is how I'd have done it:

Samara and Thane would be one character; an ex-Justicar who has become disillusioned with the code.

Grunt I would cut all together, the same with Kasumi. They were both good enough characters, but they aren't justified in the over all plot very well and don't really add much  to it. Kasumi perhaps would work as a temporary ally as part of her own actual expansion maybe, rather than just the one loyalty mission. Say you got several missions to do with her to cover up this Alliance secret and help her find her avenge her lost lover, but then she parts ways. (I just thought her loyalty mission was well done and it seemed to be important too)

Miranda and Jack. Yes, I really said that. I would have Miranda be the result of Teltin; a scarred and slightly sociopathic woman who clings to Cerberus to validate her existence. She's a freak to normal society but only by advancing humanity does she feel she can justify and thus cope with what was done to her as a child.

Finally I would combine Zaeed and Jacob, with Jacob acting as the older, wiser, and more pragmatic Cerberus operative. Where-as Miranda fully believes their propaganda as a form of validation Jacob doesn't bother because he is experienced enough to know the truth. He'd still be well adjusted, but he'd also be willing to entertain Shepard with stories of his adventures as a Corsair and Cerberus agent and also offer his advice to the younger Commander.

Genius.  And better use of resources.  Zaeed + Jacob?  Whoa.  You are blowing my mind.  Goddamn bloody prizes.

[Bhatair]

Yeah, I was seriously surprised by just how many characters we had to choose from, and disappointed that some had no use in the suicide mission (like Thane, even thought he's one of my favorite characters.)

But in the end, I'm ok with it.

[Onyx Jaguar]

I'll post my thoughts on this here is at deviates from your post, as it it references a cost/reward system. Also references ME 1

A recurring theme when bringing up characters in Mass Effect 2 is how they fit in the storyline. I believe that this is an adequate complaint since you have to spend some work to get them. While the more the merrier works to an extent I feel it doesn't really fit given the urgency of the situation.



This has been a problem for me since playing ME 1 as I feel that the last three games Bioware has made has suffered from this (not including Sonic as I have not played it, and including Awakenings as I consider that a stand alone story).



For instance in ME 2 we have two categories, those with Dossiers and those without. Those without can be easily justified. This is looking more so from a first person perspective (also my opinion) rather than an end of game perspective. Also the third category will be DLC characters as they do not exist for quite a number of people who have played the game.



ME 1 (briefly, added this in after I did ME 2's as I felt this needed to be here)



Kaidan Alenko: Start out with them, fellow Alliance soldier, works with you from the start.



Ashley Williams: You rescue her and she is forced in your squad, stays there from then on.



Tali: Has mission critical information, after rescuing her she is forced in your squad because of knowledge of Geth it seems.



Liara: Has mission critical information and a link with one of the VIPs you are hunting down.



Wrex: One of two options use his help to rescue Tali or not. However if you don't you will bump into him but the only justification to bring him along is for his combat skills. He is seen as dangerous however and is a merc.



Garrus: Same with Wrex. If you do not recruit him you will bump into him again and the only reason to bring him along seems to be his combat skill and his beef with Saren.



ME 2

WITHOUT DOSSIER

Jacob: You escape with him at the Lazarus station. As a member of Cerberus it makes sense that he would serve on a Cerberus Vessel alongside you.



Miranda: You escape with her at the Lazarus station. As a Cerberus officer she keeps tabs on your mission and has a direct link with TIM.



Legion: It is optional, however you have to run into it and it is purely your choice what to do with it. Similar to Wynne and Zevran from Dragon Age if anyone has played that.



Morinth: Psychotic dangerous murderer, sure she has a reason but picking her for your team makes absolutely no sense.



WITH DOSSIER



The Professor: Mordin fits in because he has been classified as vital in the mission against the Collectors and could provide assistance. No problem there.



The Warlord: Okeer also fits in because he has dealt with the Collectors and may have information regarding them. Going to recruit him makes sense. In the end you get Grunt though and are put in a similar situation to Legion.



Archangel: This one is a bit more difficult. Here what you know is that the Archangel is a mercenary commander with strategic expertise. However you also know that they are being assaulted by numerous gangs. In that situation why risk it? Knowing that it was Garrus would have made it make more sense to pick him up.



The Convict: The convict makes sense because they are paid for. You essentially are just going to pick them up. Since they are a powerful biotic this is something that your team lacks, so picking them up to add to your squad fills a hole.



The Justicar: This one I have a hard time understanding. We do know that she is a biotic who is well trained with weapons, but we also find out that she causes trouble and that they usually work alone. Also going to recruit her requires you to circumvent the law. The risk vs. reward line for me makes it seem that picking her up would be far too risky since you already have a powerful biotic on your team.



The Assassin: To me this is the single one that makes very little sense to me. Also the situation perplexes me. The Assassin works alone and while he may be skilled in infiltration and ranged weapons I do not understand why you would pick them up with what the term “Assassin” implies. This is a mission where you should be recruiting Commando operatives, and Assassin does not imply that.



The Quarian: This one I am on the fence on. Assuming you have picked up Garrus (who has some technical expertise) this one should be invalidated. The main reason you would be compelled to pick Tali up is because she was on your squad in the first game.



DLC Characters



The DLC characters fail off the bat because they are not in the game and are optional downloads. However if they were in the game lets see how they stack up.



The Veteran: Zaeed is paid for and you do not have to recruit him, (much like Garrus and Wrex in the first ME) the only terms are that he has a mission he wants to get dealt with in his negotiation with Cerberus. He fits the combat specialist role the best aside from the Archangel.



The Master Thief: Aside from infilitration and tech skills I do not see much of a reason for recruiting someone with the skillset of a thief for the squad. Again like my criticism of Thane this is a mission where you should be recruiting Commando operatives or mission important personel.



Despite my criticisms I will say that at the end at least ME 2 has consequences for Character recruitment, unlike ME 1, Awakenings and DA where you can travel lightly without consequences. Still from a first person viewpoint you would not know that and that is something I am struggling with, as the Bioware games I have mentioned have a hard time dealing with as well.

How they are actually implemented is a bit different as Tali and Garrus are more or less essential. While still Samara and Thane really are not, and I have not skipped a beat in not recruiting them. Also that the squadmates that are presented in any manner of relevance is just Jacob/Mordin/Miranda and in a way Legion. Similar to in the first in regards to Ashley/Kaidan/Liara and Wrex. Garrus barely has anything to do with the first game, and if it wasn't for that mission to get the data, Tali is pretty much set in the background doing nothing. Not very effecient. Does Brandon Keener's contract cost more?

[Strike]

My sister and me were just talking about this last night. We narrowed it down to this:



You would meet with the Illusive Man and he would say how even Cerberus doesn't know what's really behind the Omega-4 Relay, therefore, you need specialists in the four most important areas: Biotics, Science, Leadership, and Engineering. TIM would start by giving you the dossiers focusing on only one set of those specializations.



However, the main difference would be that you could only choose one of the dossiers from each area. You would have to use your own discretion to decide which you want on your team. You could not recruit all of the characters in one playthrough, making the game more replayable. In the end, you would have four specialists in each area.



Another difference would be an addition of several Cerberus recruited demi-specialists (i.e, they would be trained biotic soldiers as opposed to biotic gods), which would not be squadmates but simply there for the mission.



I also think that Miranda should have been used for her scientific knowledge; she worked on a scientific marvel. I think she knows a thing or two.

[kidbd15]

Strike wrote...

My sister and me were just talking about this last night. We narrowed it down to this:

You would meet with the Illusive Man and he would say how even Cerberus doesn't know what's really behind the Omega-4 Relay, therefore, you need specialists in the four most important areas: Biotics, Science, Leadership, and Engineering. TIM would start by giving you the dossiers focusing on only one set of those specializations.

However, the main difference would be that you could only choose one of the dossiers from each area. You would have to use your own discretion to decide which you want on your team. You could not recruit all of the characters in one playthrough, making the game more replayable. In the end, you would have four specialists in each area.

Another difference would be an addition of several Cerberus recruited demi-specialists (i.e, they would be trained biotic soldiers as opposed to biotic gods), which would not be squadmates but simply there for the mission.

I also think that Miranda should have been used for her scientific knowledge; she worked on a scientific marvel. I think she knows a thing or two.

I like this idea.  Even if it meant the game itself was shorter, it'd be a more intelligent approach, better replayability too.

[SkullandBonesmember]

Grunt was my least favorite character. Yes below Jacob. His voice actor saves him IMO. Even if he wasn't a squad member, Shepard could have met up with Wrex without Grunt since Mordin's loyalty mission is on Tuchanka. And he was just plain boring. Had practically no personality beyond "RARGHHH" unlike Wrex.

[Loreleon]

I don't read the entire thread, but Zaeed, Thane and Grunt aren't usefulness at suicide mission: they are the best at "hold the line" in the end.

[Zanramon]

You can't upgrade anything without Mordin.

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

Interesting points. However, I think there are still aspects people are not considering:



1) fleshing out the ME universe (Grunt, Tali, Samara, Morinth, Thane, Legion)

2) Sure the specialists are needed, but you still need 2 people in your squad at all times during the final mission, plus several to 'hold the line'

3) Setting up story for ME3 (Tali, Legion, krogans genophage (Grunt, Mordin))

[Chuvvy]

smudboy wrote...

and fleshing out these characters

HA!

Really though I agree they put to many in ME2, they couldn't handle it. At least I like to think that, maybe they didn't feel like doing full dialog trees. There's going to be allot in ME3, a ridiculous amount. Seventeen if I remember correctly, assuming you kept everyone alive in both games. Then you have to add in the new ones, and if they put in replacement characters you'll need to consider them. All and all they are giveing themselves to much work with so many characters to write. Unless they do broken dialog trees like Garrus had.

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

Slidell505 wrote...

smudboy wrote...

and fleshing out these characters

HA!

Really though I agree they put to many in ME2, they couldn't handle it. At least I like to think that, maybe they didn't feel like doing full dialog trees. There's going to be allot in ME3, a ridiculous amount. Seventeen if I remember correctly, assuming you kept everyone alive in both games. Then you have to add in the new ones, and if they put in replacement characters you'll need to consider them. All and all they are giveing themselves to much work with so many characters to write. Unless they do broken dialog trees like Garrus had.

Where did you get the 17 number? Did you jsut add the ME1 and ME2 squad together, or do you have  a source?

How was Garrus' dialog broken? I didn't notice any problems.

[Tooneyman]

Garrus had a purpose weapons ands Tali had a purpose engine room, Grunt literallly was a pic up and an option to use. You didn't have to play him. The game allowed you to keep the capsule closed. You didn't have to use legion either. Kasumi and Zaeed are DLC who cares. I agree the other three samara, thane and Jack really didn't need to be there. The characters which matter in all get out where these 5.



Mordin

Miranda

Jacob

Tali

Garrus



The reason you need jacob is the armor and he works on your personal armory. I agree he wasn't very intriguing but he did have a purpose.



The five above would have just kept the story to purpose and kept it great. Zaeed and Kasumi would have just been their for fun sense they are just DLC and sense you really didn't have to Download them.



Those five should have been the main story. I just think Bioware got a little to creation happy with the whole suicide idea and hey they are game designers who wanted to do something different no big deal. ME 3 they can make up for it. I think as along as they just keep the squad you have now and actually explain them better to the main plot. ME 3 might just pull a head out of air hole and make everything nice and sweet.

[Bryy_Miller]

SomethinNothing wrote...

ashmiranda3waymm wrote...

Personally I found the characters to be quite enjoyable to the fullest. Giving both Samara and Thane 0 for their stories is quite a sham in my opinion. Did you even speak with them?

This as well.

Jack's backstory, once revealed, is really, really cool and really, really well written.

[smudboy]

Loreleon wrote...

I don't read the entire thread, but Zaeed, Thane and Grunt aren't usefulness at suicide mission: they are the best at "hold the line" in the end.

I have a major problem with untold and unseen roles.  Aside from Mordin, not that we're told why we get anyone, anyway.  You could recruit a series of brickwalls for what it's worth.  The only narration on this element is if people die, essentially a giant aside.

[MerrickShep]

smudboy wrote...
We thought Legion would've been some kind of malfunctioned sniper who's obsessed with killing Shepard/becoming him.  Turns out we have no clue why he put on his armor.

There was a hole.

[Christmas Ape]

smudboy wrote...
I have a major problem with untold and unseen roles.

What is it about preparing for contingencies that so offends?

smudboy wrote...
We thought Legion would've been some kind of
malfunctioned sniper who's obsessed with killing Shepard/becoming him. 
Turns out we have no clue why he put on his armor.

To say nothing of the fact this is the first time I've seen someone complain that a character was more interesting than they could have been.

Modifié par Christmas Ape, 13 juin 2010 - 01:30 .

[STG]

MerrickShep wrote...

smudboy wrote...
We thought Legion would've been some kind of malfunctioned sniper who's obsessed with killing Shepard/becoming him.  Turns out we have no clue why he put on his armor.

There was a hole.

But why couldn't he fix it sooner, or use something else?

[Christmas Ape]

STG wrote...

MerrickShep wrote...

smudboy wrote...
We thought Legion would've been some kind of malfunctioned sniper who's obsessed with killing Shepard/becoming him.  Turns out we have no clue why he put on his armor.

There was a hole.

But why couldn't he fix it sooner, or use something else?

Data...not available.

Less glib answer: The Legion platform is developing symptoms of individuality - in this case, spontaneous consensus.

Modifié par Christmas Ape, 13 juin 2010 - 01:36 .

[Chuvvy]

Shinian2 wrote...

Slidell505 wrote...

smudboy wrote...

and fleshing out these characters

HA!

Really though I agree they put to many in ME2, they couldn't handle it. At least I like to think that, maybe they didn't feel like doing full dialog trees. There's going to be allot in ME3, a ridiculous amount. Seventeen if I remember correctly, assuming you kept everyone alive in both games. Then you have to add in the new ones, and if they put in replacement characters you'll need to consider them. All and all they are giveing themselves to much work with so many characters to write. Unless they do broken dialog trees like Garrus had.

Where did you get the 17 number? Did you jsut add the ME1 and ME2 squad together, or do you have  a source?

How was Garrus' dialog broken? I didn't notice any problems.

Yeah, I just added them.


Maybe broken wasn't the right word. Garrus had two conversations for a 30 hour long game, he was also a fan favorite I'm not sure how they thought that was a good idea. I mean, Jacob has more dialog than him and that's just wrong. The dialog trees could and should have been much better.

Modifié par Slidell505, 13 juin 2010 - 03:35 .

[Ooga600]

Well there was no way to know what you would need to do in the base, so recruiting a wide range of skill sets seems like a wise choice to me. Having a lot of characters can be good and bad. You might not feel attached to any of them, or everybody might like a certain few characters.

[smudboy]

Ooga600 wrote...

Well there was no way to know what you would need to do in the base, so recruiting a wide range of skill sets seems like a wise choice to me. Having a lot of characters can be good and bad. You might not feel attached to any of them, or everybody might like a certain few characters.

1) There was no knowledge of a base, several, or a few planets worth of bases.
2) If the plot is Stop the Bad Guys in Space, why would you need soldiers?  No military mind (in Space) would think this way.
3) Having a lot of characters is bad.  Unless you're Konami and making Suikoden VI.
4) Feeling attached to them/having drama is irrelevant unless we know why they're even being recruited.