903 réponses à ce sujet

[Scarecrow_ES]

BoneDealer... Ammo powers are passive powers (like the class passive power). The charge system would only apply to active powers, which is to say powers that you use continually in combat, such as biotic, tech, or class powers like Tactical Cloak.



Someone above, and I'm sorry for not making note of the name, mentioned that if charging a power left them exposed (out of cover), then it might not get used. My only goal with charging is to provide some risk with charging. Not necessarily pushing a player out of cover while charging, but perhaps leaving him out of cover just a bit longer while casting. Also, a player is more exposed in the sense that he cannot fire, move into-out of cover, etc while charging. I think these slight consequences are enough risk to cause the player to make sure he's in good position before charging a power. He might think twice about running out in the open with a handful of powerful enemies in well-covered positions while holding down the charge button, though.

[We Tigers]

Scarecrow_ES wrote...

I'd argue, Stinger, that sniper rifles, shotguns, and assault rifles are very much intended to be the primary weapon in the given class they appear in. Infiltrators, as the best example, have skill trees that fundementally FOCUS on sniper combat. And yet, the current ammo/heat system virtually eliminates the possibility of using this weapon in long firefights. What's the point of spending so many points in a sniper specialization class if you can't use the sniper rifle to any effect?

Lots of good weapons/ammo chat in the last two pages, and sniper is fresh in my mind as I'm nearing the end of an infiltrator playthrough on hardcore.  I've actually found the sniper rifle to be really solid for long firefights because of its power; while the bolt-action rifles only hold 10-12 rounds, that alone is enough to eliminate most mobs.  I definitely consider sniper rifle to be the infiltrator's primary weapon, and well-implemented.  Now, you can't fire as many sniper shots as you can pistol shots or AR rounds, but you can deal the same amount of damage (and, more importantly, burst damage--the introduction of damage boxes that allow for headshots made sniper rifles infinitely more useful than their ME1 counterparts).

So, even though I might only fire 7-8 sniper rounds in a battle against 8-10 enemies, it definitely feels like the primary method of assault.  That many rounds usually kills 5 or 6 enemies with proper use of cloak.  I think Bioware did a wise thing by including the Viper for players who want sniping to be more like using a battle rifle/hunting rifle--not as much burst damage, but the ability to send 20-30 scoped rounds downrange in a fight and still have ammo to spare (and it's also the strongest sniper rifle against barriers and shields--I think it basically is the model of the "jack of all trades" weapon you suggest be one of the upgrades within a type).  The Widow is, in my opinion, the best designed weapon of the game, both in gameplay and model; it's a massive beast of a gun that handles slowly, languidly, and does absurd damage that makes it all worthwhile.  Despite my tendency to just take cover and use cloak solely for the damage bonus, the Widow's awesome heft had me spending a lot more time stealthing my way to the perfect sniping places to unload hot death.  There are usually enough clips left on the ground to fill up post-fight or mid-fight, too.  I guess the only change I'd like to see for the sniper rifles would be access to the Viper a little earlier for some variety.  Given how well I think sniping works and how the automatic weapons get tons of ammo per clip, I'd say only shotguns might need a reboot in terms of overheating/clips, mostly cause I haven't played them enough to have an opinion yet.  The Vanguard crew over in the characters/classes/builds forum seems to do pretty well with what they've got.  Overall, I love how the sniper rifles turned out.

Universal clips is still a simple solution for anyone with ammo displeasure--I wouldn't mind having access to 30 widow shots at the expense of my pistol--though the game actually does basically account for universal clips on pickup.  It took me a while to notice that you get a full reload's worth of ammo for every gun you carry with each clip you acquire. 

[Homebound]

Scarecrow_ES wrote...

Haha, Legion is by far the most interesting party member you get in this game. Though... I am not sure how they'd look in pink.

[Scarecrow_ES]

TornadoADV wrote...

Scarecrow_ES wrote...

Tornado, if the developers would actually want to add environment-specific effects on gameplay, I would be 100% for it! This is a missed opportunity for mission variety, I think. Maybe give us some limited 0-atmosphere combat, or have real gravity/atmosphere effects in gameplay. It might be difficult to program and balance with missions, but it would be very very cool.

It would be great is on some missions you wouldn't have to worry about overheating your weapon and others you're constantly ejecting heat-sinks to keep your weapons functional. One would favour high ROF weapons and the other would support high damage per shot weapons.

My thoughts exactly.  Balancing gameplay could be achieved in simple means... for example, providing you with a large number of fodder enemy types to deal with on planets where overheating is not so much a problem, or presenting you with limited numbers of difficult enemies in environments where you're more likely to overheat (with generous thermal clip pickups between battlefields).  Hell, maybe even a short but intense battle in space where every shot has to count (maybe a lot of running away, turning around and shooting, running away, etc).  There's plenty of opportunity for the occasional gameplay shake-up in there, and it would please the more scientifically-concerned players out there.

[EternalWolfe]

Scarecrow_ES wrote...

As far as the branching skill trees, Andor (sorry again) - you're basically treating these as two separate powers with their own progression track. Once you make that first choice, you're locked into that type of power from then on. It's not really branching then, is it? You're just making a choice between one skill tree and another, very similar, skill tree. I'd have to say I like that idea even less than the branching idea. It has the potential to frustrate a lot of players.

There are ways to branch easily, without creating a dozen powers.

One way is effects.  At each milestone, you get to choose one of two effects(could be more, just an example).  These effects wouldn't change the basic use of the power, but rather give it more uses.  For instance:

Overload
Choice 1: A simple increase Area vs Increase Power(what we have right now at level 4)

Choice 2: Your Overload can now Overheat weapons and stun synthetics or
Backlash, weakening 'armor'(not the defence) of the target, so it takes more damage to armor and health(debuff)

Choice 3: You can either have your Overload:
Pulse, which sends out an energy wave on contact that does minor damage and staggers unprotected enemies, or Fry, which causing a catastrophic malfuntion in shields and synthetics(shields will take more damage and the user will be electrified from the overload, while mechs will explode on death and have a small chance to explode on contact(fairly small chance))
 
That's just an example, haven't really thought out all the implication of each effect, but it gives each power a distinct flavor based on your choices, while keeping the basics of the power the same. 

Could probably come up with more ways, but for now I think I'll sleep on it - work waits for no man or his late nights

[Scarecrow_ES]

The difficulty, especially with sniper rifles, We Tigers, is that in later levels of the game, especially, you're presented with a large group of enemies in a very short timespan that have damage augments (shields, armor, or barriers). Even the best snipers among us will need to take at least two shots with the best rifles to take down a protected enemy (as long as the second is a headshot). Given that, the bolts (especially the starter) are not likely to make it through the entire firefight. It's entirely possible, if not likely, that once you go to collect the thermal clips laying around after the fight is over, you won't be able to completely fill the ammo on that sniper rifle... especially if you had to switch over to another weapon, leaving you with fewer shots available to start the next fight.



It's certainly not what I'd call a game-breaking design issue, but it does cause pain and frustration unnecessarily, especially given that no matter what you're presented with as an Infiltrator, you'll NEVER run out of SMG ammo.

[Reclusiarch]

This is about Tech armour. The gamepaly mechanics work fine, I'm more concerned over the graphics myself.



The tech armour we have I feel is too "busy". The hexagons all over the body, and the light pulsing up and down the character all the time. If one could remove the hexagons that covers the whole body, as well as the pulsing, I think the armour would look really cool! As it is now, it's just distracting me from the gameplay experience.



Cheers!

[Scarecrow_ES]

Well, EternalWolfe, I understand exactly what you're saying, but in reality there are only so many "effects" you can offer a power without giving that power certain attributes that are meant for other powers. For instance, Incinerate is meant to be good against armor and organics, while Overload is meant to be good against shields and synthetics. If you were to allow Overload to be good against armor as well, this would greatly unbalance the power system. If you were to allow all "missile" powers to absorb attributes from each other, at higher levels they'd lose their distinctiveness.



Once you limit what attributes you can improve in a given power to those that are specific to that power, or generic in nature, you end up with only things like damage, area of effect, force, etc left over. If we could find ways to provide meaningful choices that imbued power-specific attributes in a way that remains balanced and distinct, I'd be all for a system like what you described. I think, though, that the challenge is far greater than what you'd at first guess. Plus, if you WERE to find enough modifications to powers to make such a branching system possible, I think it would do more to frustrate players who must now choose between 2 useful effects and lose the unchosen effect forever. It might be possible, then, to have a branching system which offers players 2 options they absolutely want in one choice, and no options they want in others, which is even more frustrating. At that point, it might be more advisable to simply let the player select from a small list of available effects at each "tier" to ensure that their end-power performs exactly as they'd want.



It's also likely there'd always be a certain build in each power tree that's better than the others, which is also not good.



I dunno. I really think the current structure for power evolution works well enough in theory. Your powers get upgraded, but the system is not unnecessarily complicated.

[EternalWolfe]

Scarecrow_ES wrote...

Well, EternalWolfe, I understand exactly what you're saying, but in reality there are only so many "effects" you can offer a power without giving that power certain attributes that are meant for other powers. For instance, Incinerate is meant to be good against armor and organics, while Overload is meant to be good against shields and synthetics. If you were to allow Overload to be good against armor as well, this would greatly unbalance the power system. If you were to allow all "missile" powers to absorb attributes from each other, at higher levels they'd lose their distinctiveness.

Once you limit what attributes you can improve in a given power to those that are specific to that power, or generic in nature, you end up with only things like damage, area of effect, force, etc left over. If we could find ways to provide meaningful choices that imbued power-specific attributes in a way that remains balanced and distinct, I'd be all for a system like what you described. I think, though, that the challenge is far greater than what you'd at first guess. Plus, if you WERE to find enough modifications to powers to make such a branching system possible, I think it would do more to frustrate players who must now choose between 2 useful effects and lose the unchosen effect forever. It might be possible, then, to have a branching system which offers players 2 options they absolutely want in one choice, and no options they want in others, which is even more frustrating. At that point, it might be more advisable to simply let the player select from a small list of available effects at each "tier" to ensure that their end-power performs exactly as they'd want.

It's also likely there'd always be a certain build in each power tree that's better than the others, which is also not good.

I dunno. I really think the current structure for power evolution works well enough in theory. Your powers get upgraded, but the system is not unnecessarily complicated.

I don't think i explained 'backlash' right.  I don't mean it actually damages armor or health, but it works like Overload did in ME1 - it lowers their damage protection, increasing the amount of damage you do per shot slightly.  The others all increase effectiveness vs shields/synthitics or give a small bonus - CC(Overheat/Pulse), a bit of extra damage past the shields(nothing huge, mostly good vs health), ect.  I do see your point on getting enough effects for each power to do so.

I don't really have a problem with a more complex system, but that's a personal point, so, whatever.  The idea of branching powers appeals to me, as it means even replaying a single class can have different setups.  I do take your point though.

Edit: It also might do to point out that the extra damage from Fry only applies when you hit/break a shield, otherwise its no different then normally hitting an organic directly with Overload.

Modifié par EternalWolfe, 23 février 2010 - 07:37 .

[TornadoADV]

I would prefer a combo of the skill system of ME1 and ME2. A skill is leveled up with passive benefits with an active skill that's upgraded as you put more points into it and then at the end you evolve the skill. ME1 kinda touched on this with Specializations for the character's class.

Modifié par TornadoADV, 23 février 2010 - 07:42 .

[Andaius20]

I would have loved a hybrind ammo system too. I pretty much agree with everything you have stated so far.
I am in agreement on the general attitude about ammo powers. I really would have liked to see the return of weaponry skill powers like in ME 1 I want marksmen, Carnage, Overkill, and so forth back in. Those would have filled in wonderfully for a soldiers skill tree. Having these skills with the hybrid heat management system woudl have worked perfectly.

I'm also in total agreement to put X mods back in on weapons and armor. Along with readding several armros and weaposn from the companies each with different pro's and con's.  research should be focused on making upgrade modifications to "off the shelf" gun mods. Would also be cool to see illegal custom mods found as loot or rewards.  Since there's lots of talk about illegal mods but you never really see them anywhere.

I would also like to see the return of squad inventory customization. Again the return of various companies Armor hardsuits with each having a pro's and con's that your squadmates can equip. Adding N7 style customization doesn't seem too hard, as it's already in place with that suit. Would have also loved to have each squad member have a special unique weapon like you see with Legion and Grunt.   For instance doing a mission that gets Jessie fix for Zaeed thus giving him his favorite gun back would be cool.

As for automating the minigames, I'd be all for that, I think minigames are the bane of games now adays. You'd still have plenty of "chores" to do as you have to do the administration side of things. AKA "check off yes mining these sites EDI."  I mean if you really wanted to keep the time "lost" playing the minigame in your automated system you could just add load bars....that would be less tedious, and more fun then playing endless minigames for every action.

I would even say bring back the Electronics and Decrypt skills back and allow tech based classes to invest skill points to bypass those minigames.  Since you already get upgrades that increase time to make the mbasicly unloseable anyway unless you really make a blunder. Like not double cheking on a bypass or selecting the wrong thing three times in a row on hacking. It also has the bonus of flashing out classes skills even more. Another think that is now missing from ME 1. What good is it to be a tech specialist if a soldier could hack or bypass just as good as you ever could.

I'll post more as I gather my thoughts on other areas.

Modifié par Andaius20, 23 février 2010 - 09:37 .

[TheLoyalist]

I have to say great job Scarecrow its always refreshing to read constructive and thought out ideas every once in a while on these forums. I've read one too many of these "My ideas on how Bioware should improve Mass Effect for me and me only or I'me gonna kick and scream like a toddler" topics that never offer any real explanation, or let me rephrase that, any INTELLIGENT explanation as for why they belive the system thats in place is faulty and how it could be improved upon for the next installment. No all you get is...whine...whine...EA sucks...I HATE IT...whine...Bioware how could you let this happen...pout...whine.

So again quite a refreshing read and I didn't mind the length at all, you put forth some interesting ideas and backed them all up with pretty thought out explanations so kudos to you my friend. I must say I do like your idea for improving the planet scaning which is definitely lacking in the fun department as it is right now and having a "mana" bar for biotics instead of the GCD as well as being able to charge powers sounds interesting although in all honesty I personally dont have any problems with the system that ME2 uses. I can pull enemies into the air and use push to fling them any which way with my adept no sweat!

Still this one's a definite BUMP.

[Soruyao]

Scarecrow_ES wrote...

Soruyao... I think your skill-based fix for the lack of "ammo" does solve to problem. I don't, however, think it's a good solution, only for the fact that for those individuals who choose NOT to invest in the skill, they'll have to contend with the poor ammo system. It's punishing those players while rewarding others - not fixing the gameplay.

Well, I can only speak for myself with certainty, but if there were an optional skill-based ammo creation skill, I would always avoid it, even on my infiltrator.   I rarely ran out of ammo on my infiltrator, partly because I actually liked using my SMG and carnifex sometimes, partly because I used incinerate a lot, and partly because I was very accurate with the sniper shots I did fire.   I rarely ran into a situation where I thought to myself "Wow, I wish I had some sniper ammo right now, so I can shoot this guy."

I would guess that there are plenty of other people out there who didn't have any trouble keeping their carnifex/widows maxed out with ammo throughout their game.   In effect, my change would reward the people who choose the change and reward (or at least prevent a possible punishment for) the people who don't by allowing them to continue being able to fire quickly.

My main worry, and the reason that I'm speaking up so much against the hyrbid change, is that I feel it's very likely that there would be a lot less thermal clips around if it were implimented.  (If this change can be implimented so that I can continue to fire quickly and scrounge for ammo after fights the same way, then I wouldnt oppose it at all.)   If I run out of thermal clips more because of the change, then I would likely end up in situations where I'm basically stuck mucking around with the overheat mechanic from ME1, which would slow down combat quite a bit, which is exactly what I don't want.

It's possible that some progress can be made by tweeking the rounds made available from thermal clips, as you've said. However, simply adding rounds causes another problem... a lack of consequence from constant fire, or as some people like to put it "firing with impunity."

Yes, it'd be great to not run out of sniper ammo in the middle of a fight. But just giving me more ammo only means I can now fire a very powerful weapon a whole lot more, which creates the opposite issue of balance from where we started.

Actually my main argument was to halve the amount of ammo ARs and SMGs get.   I agree with you that doubling sniper ammo would cause more of a balance issue, and I would prefer not to go that route.

The best system is going to limit just how much damage you can do in a given period of time, but not limit how long you can stay engaged in a fight. By overheating your weapon when you used it too much in too short a time-span, The ME1 system could deal with low-intensity fights well, but screwed you in a high intensity fight. Allowing powerful weapons to fire quickly lets the ME2 system deal with higher-intensity firefights, but the severe ammo limits placed on those weapons to prevent their continual use removes their longevity and prevents you from staying engaged in a fight. My system lets you stay engaged in just about any fight, but still provides limits on damage/time and instills real consequences for overuse.

I agree that your system would do the things you say it would.  However, I think that if it were not implimented very carefully it could end up alienating both the people who like the ME1 system and the people who liked the ME2 system.  Any time you add a completely new (at least comparitvely new) system this danger exists.   It basically boils down to this: For thermal clips to matter, overheating has to slow down combat enough that you will want them; For overheating to matter, thermal clips will have to be rare enough that you run out consistently if you use them a lot.

My system would solve the problem using current in-game mechanics and would consequently take much less time and effort to program and would be much less subject to balance issues.   However, I will give you that your system could potentially work well, given the proper time and effort, but there are a lot of variables that could make it very unpleasant for me at least.

I want to add that if people don't like the skill based ammo creation idea, a piece of armor that has no stats but which makes a thermal clip every once in awhile would work also.   Basically, any time you could sacrifice some skill or stat or effect for periodic creation of thermal clips would work with the current system and solve the problem while also not weakening people who don't have any problems with the ammo system the way it is now.

-edit-

I would also be very curious to know whether the devs tried out a hybrid setup like this first, since enough people are mentioning it that it seems like common sense.   I would not be suprised at all if they did try it and it turned out to not be very fun and they scrapped it for what we have now.   Of course, it is possible the community has thought of a solution that never occured to them.  I find that highly unlikely but I could be wrong.

Modifié par Soruyao, 23 février 2010 - 12:30 .

[EternalWolfe]

Soruyao wrote...

-edit-

I would also be very curious to know whether the devs tried out a hybrid setup like this first, since enough people are mentioning it that it seems like common sense.   I would not be suprised at all if they did try it and it turned out to not be very fun and they scrapped it for what we have now.   Of course, it is possible the community has thought of a solution that never occured to them.  I find that highly unlikely but I could be wrong.

Yeah, it was stated in one interview or another that they tried the hybrid system and they decided this one was better.  I don't know the exact system, of course, but apparenlty this form of ammo was better.  Unable to decide myself with direct playtesting, of course *shrug*.

[Abram730]

@Scarecrow
Great post.... like you read my mind.. well except you had more good ideas and you organize your ideas better then me lol

I hope Dev's looked your post.


@Sibbwolf
I like your idea about atmosphere affecting radiators... like in the real world.


My idea for per weapon, per character upgrades.

example
Heat pumps and radiators.

A menu like the load out screen yet selecting a weapon doesn't change your weapon. Selecting brings up a schematic image of the weapon. One main part to the weapon would be the heat pump. All heat pumps include an expandable Lv1 thermal compressor. Lv2 heat pumps have an upgrade box and Lv3 heat pumps have 2 upgrade boxes. Parts include thermal compressor upgrades[c] shots per clip, and radiators[r] capacity and dissipation time, this would look like the weapon is gaining ammo over time as heat is first pumped to the radiator. Radiators don't dissipate clip heat until they have a clip worth of capacity(Lv1 empty, Lv2 50%).

Heat pumps come in pistol/smg/SG/AR/SR

Lv1 Heat pump standard ME2-ME3
standard issue.
-no radiator
-Lv1 thermal compressor(holds one clip of heat and drives it into one clip)

Lv2 Heat pump can support
a)
distribution of heat between a thermal clip and a Lv1 radiator.
[r]
-Lv1 radiator (dissipates at 1x and holds 1 clip worth of heat)
-Lv1 thermal compressor


pump more heat into a single clip liquefying the thermal clip, ejecting slag
[c]
-no radiator
-Lv2 thermal compressor (holds 2 clips of heat and drives it into one clip)

Lv3 Heat pump can support
a)
distribution of heat between a thermal clip and a Lv2 radiator.
[r,r]
-Lv2 radiator (dissipates at 2x and holds 2 clips worth of heat)
-Lv1 thermal compressor


[r,c]
distribution of heat between a thermal clip with liquefying and a Lv1 radiator
-Lv1 radiator
-Lv2 thermal compressor

c)Full gasification of thermal clips.
[c,c]
-no radiator
-Lv3 thermal compressor (holds 3 clips of heat and drives it into one clip)

Balance - Ammo balance is inherent in this system as they both use clips more efficiently and require no additional clips added in level design. Parts would come from killing bosses, as loot and thus the drop is a known.

Some worlds would favor radiators(cold, dense conductive atmosphere, rain)
Some worlds would favor clips(hot, thin non-conductive atmosphere, vacuum, dry)
Thus
Retaining utility of older weapons - As changes would require a visit to the armory and not be swappable in mission, load out, or at in mission stations. So atmospheric differences encourage use of older weapons as different builds and adds a utility other then heavy weapons choice to weapon load out.

Crew preference - Crew desiring different weapon tilts based on morality could add greater variety to your crew and encourage better crew utilization.

Lets players lean a weapon, tailoring it to play style.
stereotyped examples

A Paragon PC - (radiators) as it conserves ammo, reduces waste, doesn't pollute or slag a nicely polished floors, and lastly because spitting slag or poisonous gas is against alliance regulations. I'm patent and head shots are more humane.

A Renegade PC - screw, regulations, pollution and radiators I want ammo down range now and lots of it. I like the smell of slag and the look on faces of maintenance. Poisonous gas? F**K YEH!! SMELL DEATH!!!!! I SPIT FIRE!!!! I aim for the quads and my reload is like a melee attack.

Neutral - Depends on the planet and PC, let me see the stats and atmospheric data.




A similar system could be made for the "power system" Lv1-Lv3 with high current regulator [c] to dampen peeks and extends firing pulses for a longer AP round or transformers for a volt mod[v] this front loads pulses compressing bullet length and raising surface area for shield damage. Both produce more heat per shot and lower accuracy as they kick harder from off spec pulses. Also a highly attenuated power conditioner[p] could be added to raise accuracy by ensuring a very even mass effect field for a small thermal cost.
More complex shaping requires a unique ammunition generator in the base disign.

Power systems come in pistol/smg/SG/AR/SR

Just guessing at percents.
Lv2
[v]20% shield damage -20% armor damage -10% accuracy 40% heat
[c]20% armor damage -10% shield damage -10% accuracy 40% heat
[P]20% accuracy -10% Damage 20% heat

Lv3
[v,v]40% shield damage -40% armor damage -20% accuracy 100% heat
[c,c]40% armor damage -20% shield damage -20% accuracy 100% heat
[p,p]40% accuracy -20% Damage +50% heat
[p,v]20% shield damage -20% armor damage -10% damage +60% heat
[p,c]20% armor damage -10% shield damage -10% damage +60% heat.



all advanced weapons use highly conductive rails and rifling doesn't affect the bullets path due to it's extreem velocity... However spin does reduce deflection from shield and armor at a high cost to accuracy as the weapon recoil is considerably raised.
AR/SR
linier-defalt
loose- +5% Damage +5% recoil +10% heat
tight- +10% Damage +10% recoil +20% heat


muzzle inverter 3 levels
larger weapons use a second mass effect field to add mass to already accelerated projectiles and gyroscopes to handle the added kinetic disruptions.
hand cannons/SG/AR/SR
evisirator and geth AR use a unique inverter
rev, widow, Krogan sg come Lv4 but the 3rd box is used by unique components
high velocity motors [m]
linear transform driver[l]
heavy rotors [r]
high efficiency capacitors [c]

Lv1 balanced

just guessing on percents
Lv2
[m] -10% recoil +5% heat
[l] +10% damage +10% recoil +20% heat
Lv3
[m,l] +10% damage 25% heat
[m,r] -20% recoil 20% heat
[l,c] +30% damage +30% recoil +80% heat

Weapons are designed to specific specs... mods change that spec at a cost to efficiency.. most mods thus add heat. Mods being modular are tuned to the specific weapon they are installed in and can be "overloaded" such a reset of the mod will require retuning. Until mod is flashed with tunning data the weapon mod will remain inactive. Trained personnel may flash a mod from an omnitool.

EDI could warn about problems from lowering aim too much, or too much heat, excessive recoil...ext

What do you think?

PS: I like the game mechanics of ME2 better then ME1... yet hey things can always improve.

[Orfinn]

i totaaly agree with the OP. The ammo/heat system should be hybrized.

[Scarecrow_ES]

Soruyao...



My goal with the new hybrid heat system is to make the thermal clips necessary only when you're up against overwhelming odds and proper management of your weapon heat is not possible. If we keep mission structures similar in nature to how they're set up in ME2, where you have periods of exploration followed my small arena battles, then I'd figure that most of those battles could be handled through simple tactical gameplay and weapon heat management. Rather than imposing intensity through enemy numbers and aggressiveness, we add intensity by placing the player in a situation where he must use tactics to win. He's gotta flank, position his squatmates properly, use powers effectively, and make every round count. If he does that, he avoids overheating his weapon, and he gets to keep all his thermal clips.



Of course, in many of the big missions there's going to be that big battle. One where the enemies are big and almost invulnerable (think big mechs), or where you're facing a relentless horde of enemies. It's going to be tough to let your weapon cool down and hope to fend off the enemy, so thank goodness you kept those thermal clips in reserve.



Now, I don't ever want to punish the player, only make them think. Weapons will take a bit of firing to reach the overheat stage... say 30 rounds for ARs, 50 for SMGs, 15 for the base pistol, 6-8 for the shotgun, and maybe 2 for the (bolt) sniper. You can expect maybe a 4-5 second cooldown period to reach zero heat from just under overheat. If you burst-fire an AR, you might be able to get off 3 times the number or rounds before you risk an overheat. If you wait a second or two between sniper shots, you might just keep it right on the edge. But sometimes, that's not going to be possible. Sometimes you're going to have a dozes husks and a scion rushing you, and that trigger's going to have to stay down if you want to keep from being overrun. That's when thermal clips come in. When that weapon overheats, or is close to it, you just pop a new on in and keep mashing the trigger.



Thermal clips are not going to be plentiful on the battlefield. They won't be random drops like in ME2. You'll find them just like medi-gel packs in ME2, and just like those medi-gel packs, as long as you play smart, you'll always have an abundace of thermal clips on throughout the level for when you need them. If you go crazy in every small firefight, just firing wildly at anything that moves and not bothering to manage your heat, you're going to find yourself woefully short of clips in the end.



Through good level design, we can always make sure you'll find some clips and gels in the area right before a big battle, just so you have SOME on hand. If you're carrying the max number of clips on you going into any big battle, you should have no problem having enough ammo to get through. If you have half the number of clips, you're might have to play a little smarter. We can give the player anywhere from 5 to 10 clips capacity, depending on how the balance needs to be set up. Also, you'll be able to refill your clips and heavy weapons ammo (and prolly medi-gel) on the ship, so you can start every mission with a full count.



Like I said, the goal isn't to punish the player, but to reward them for smart play. This will be especially true on higher difficulties and in more difficult battles. Players who think smart and play tactically are going to find firefights a little easier to deal with from a weapon management perspective than players who go balls out. Players who go balls out will still be able to get through fights, though.

[trigger2kill1]

Go back to the ME1 formula for inventory where you can sell, buy, buy back equipment, weapons, and items in general. What the devs need to do is stop listening to the fans and STOP FIXING sh!t. They had a good system before but people    b!tched and moaned us out of a game that was enjoyable and played well.

Modifié par trigger2kill1, 23 février 2010 - 11:16 .

[Scarecrow_ES]

Oh, and as far as the hybrid system the devs came up with, there is actually a screenshot in the Mass Effect 2 Collectors' Edition Game Guide that I think shows what they were going for. I can't post the pics (but I could try later if there is interest) but I can try to explain what's there.



The picture is a gameplay screen taken during the final battle with the prototype human reaper. Due to the level of polish and completeness of the scene presented, this was taken anywhere during LATE alpha to late beta (assuming certain critical story scenes were content complete at late alpha). Squatmates appear to be Grunt and Thane.



The shield/health hud is different... the display is a quarter circle, with a red health gauge taking the inner portion of the circle, with the shield bar to the outside. There is also a vertical orange bar immediately to the outside of the vertical portion of the semi-circle. There isn't any indication exactly what this is, but we can guess.



For squadmates, the health/shield indicator is next to the squadmate picture at the bottom-center of the screen. For Shepard, it is displayed as if projected off his back and toward his neck off his right shoulder, much as the system works in Dead Space. In the bottom-left corner of the screen there is an icon of an Assault Rifle, and an ammo counter underneath showing 320 rounds. The color for this icon is orange, just like the bar to the left of the health/shield icon, which makes it possible that this is a weapon heat gauge. To the right of Shepard's health/shield(heat?) meters, directly over his right shoulder, is another counter showing 040. This can either be the current ammo available in the weapon, or possibly heavy weapon ammo (since it's not displayed elsewhere).



So far, this is the only visual evidence of what the system looked like before the current one was put in. Given how complete the scene was that the screenshot was taken from, we can assume the current system wasa VERY late addition to the gameplay.

[TekFanX]

I'm sorry, I just read the first post of the OP and flew over the other sites.
No bad word please, if I state something here, some othter person already mentioned.

As for the OP, Scarecrow: You're ideas are excessively good.
I thought of an overheating-system for the powers like you did, but as I see by the date, I think you got the idea earlier than I did.
I'm a little bugged, that you just refered to the Xbox-Controller-costumization in your first post but I think with the keyboard and mouse there is no big deal in adapting a pc-configuration for it.

Let me introduce some of my ideas into your thread:

Powers/skills

As for an idea how to max out the skills in their last level, I came up with something I didn't recognize in your thoughts on it: I'd say, the powers should be specialized on using less "power-bar" than before but keep the damage of their previous level or the opposite, dealing more damage but using the same ammount of "power-bar".
So it would specifically give the player the possibility to specialize in crowd-control or damage-dealing, without lacking a certain ability in both.

Also I had an idea for your charging-system: If a not already specialized power is charged, it lessens the reload of the specific "power-bar" and the reload of the protection(shields for tech, barriers for biotics) to equal parts.
If the power is maxed out, there are these two options:

-Power is specialized for less "power-bar"-use: The "power-bar"-reload is greatly decreased while overloading, while the protection-reload is given a lesser impact on the reload. When the power is launched, the power will consume a certain ammount of the "power-bar", that's not aviable while the power charges and it's reload is stopped for a short moment. The block of the "power-bar" is as much as the max-charged power will consume, but only what is used when the button is released will be taken from the bar.
Therefore a player will be able to use a certain percentage of the bar while he charges and will be given a certain percentage after the launch if the power isn't fully charged.

-Power is specialized for higher effects: The "power-bar"-reload is less affected, allowing other powers to be launched. However the protection-reload is decreased dramatically, forcing the player to think before leaving cover. When the power is launched, the "power-bar" is not lessened in a certain ammount, but a certain percentage, then leaving it unreloading for a short moment. The protection-reload is hightened a bit, leaving only enough protection for a possible retreat.
If the player should have used all of his "power-bar" when he launches the charged power, the percentage not aviable at that time will result in a longer period, in which the "power-bar" won't reload.
As for the extreme of 0% "power-bar" when launched, the bar should be out for a significant ammount of time.

Given the aspect, that the "power-bar" is somewhat usable while the power charges, I'd suggest the power starts to charge after a certain time the button is pressed, then will continue charging until the button is pressed again. This would leave the finger the possibility to press other power-buttons while the power is charging.
Also there should be the function of setting a power to charge in the power-wheel by pressing a different button.

Since I imagine the hybrid-classes(vanguard, sentinel, infiltrator) to have two "power-bars" with each containing half of the points a pure-class-bar would have, they would more than benefit from this system. Which means, there should be the possibility to just charge one power at a time, no matter how many "power-bars" a hybrid-class would have.

The power-consumption of the "lesser-power-bar-use"-specialization should also be adapted for hybrid-classes. so they can actually launch such a power with lesser points on their specific bar.

Also the sentinel would need to get a "shield-barrier-hybrid" so the biotic powers will still affect the protection of the class. This could be simply implemented by changing the shield-color of the sentinel and adding some story-fact's about it into the class.
However this mechanic would still benefit the sentinel-class in it's role as "shield-tank", since even a power-charge wouldn't affect it's protection-reload as much as the other classes. Given of course, that BioWare somehow keeps on that track with the sentinel for ME3.

In case of the leveling-mechanics, I agree completely to the one-point-per-level-system you mentioned.

Economics/Mining:

About your chemistry-mini-game for the mining, I'm not so enthusiastic. I think two mini-games for mining should be enough, so that the player isn't too embraced in economics.
Although I like the other Ideas.

Armor/Weapon-Costumization:

I agree completely in the fact that the "imba-fits" of ME1 where reducing the possibilities to logically upgrade your equipment was ridiculous. Same for the minimal costumisation and boni given in ME2.
In my oppinion, the old system should be fused with the new system.
There should be different armor-parts with given hard-boni that are not removeable.
But the armor-parts should be costumizable too.
This could be achieved by standard-parts, fitting into all armor-parts, differing their hard-bonus.

Example:
Shield-Harness:
4 slots:
2 slots contain computing-relais, fastening the recharge of the shields
2 slots contain micro-me-reactors, raising the shield-strength.

While these upgrades work this way for shields, they could do the same for biotics, tech-powers or barriers, given the fact they are equipped in an armor-part with proper onboard-computer which controls them.
Slot-numbers could vary by armor-part: 2 for the head, three for the arms, 2 for the shoulders, 4 for the legs, 4 for the chest(always so many slots that a balanced setting for people who wanna skip costumisation is given when the armor-part is purchased).
Also these basic parts could be upgraded by global upgrades.
Special parts could use more slots but could give special boni, also software-upgrades would be possible.

A similar, pretty easy system would be good for the weapons.
In this case we had mass-effect-field-generators(focussing for accuracy or giving propulsion for the projectile) and heat-conductors assisting the heat-sink in keeping cool.
Once again global upgrades could affect both modules, special modules could grant special boni(maybe even ammo-variations), software could modify the weapon further.

This system also would need to have number of slots that can be devided by two for each weapon, but this time more would be required, since more things would be affected(clip-size, fire-rate, accuracy, damage). 
Therefore we'd need at least 4 groups of slots.
I'd suggest the following:
Barrel: For more accuracy: more ME-field-generators, for higher fire-rate: more heat-conductors.
Acceleration-Module: For higher projectile-damage: more ME-field-generators, for higher fire-rate: more heat-conductors.
Loading-Chamber: For higher fire-rate: more ME-field-generators, for bigger clips: more heat-conductors.
Heat-Sink-Chamber: For more damage: more ME-field-generators, for bigger clips: more heat-conductors.

An example for possible slot-mapping:
-Pistol:
Barrel: 2 Slots
Acceleration-Module: 2 Slots
Loading-Chamber: 2 Slots
Heat-Sink-Chamber: 2 Slots

-Assault Rifle:
Barrel: 4 Slots
Acceleration-Module: 4 Slots
Loading-Chamber: 4 Slots
Heat-Sink-Chamber: 4 Slots

-Shotgun:
Barrel: 2 Slots
Acceleration-Module: 4 Slots
Loading-Chamber:  2 Slots
Heat-Sink-Chamber: 4 Slots

-Sniper-Rifle:
Barrel: 8 Slots
Acceleration-Module: 4 Slots
Loading-Chamber: 2 Slots
Heat-Sink-Chamber: 2 Slots


inventory/equipment-system

As you do, I also like the ME2-System more than the ME1-System. Scanning the data of something instead of putting it in a magical bag that can hold up 150 things no matter their size is an improvement.

But I think ME lacks a bit of crafting:

The mentioned upgrades for the Weapons/Armors could be scanned in a certain shop/mission then built on the Normandy with mined resources.
Upgrading old parts will cost resources too.
Software is scanned/purchased and cost's no resources.
Special upgrade-modules are found/bought.

So...that's my wall'o'text then.

[XWAU_Forceflow]

First off, kudos for writing a very good post!
Second off, sorry for not reading all 10 pages of coments. Hopefully I will get to that later
Third, my first comment is on planet scanning:

4. Concerning Planet Scanning and Resource Management {SCNSMGMT}

Biggest problem I see here is that there simply is no real time factor in ME2. (or one, and most likely 3 either). Time is only once really measured after the IFF mission. And when I understand it correctly it is measured in missions. This is the main problem with the slow mining you proposed. (I do like the idea a lot, and I think it would add a lot of cool options into the game, but I am afraid it would break too many other things and I can't really think of an innovative way to measure time that does not involve you jumping around star systems with no real target just to pass the time)

I have a somewhat different take on it.

First off I would reduce the amounts of rich planets, but on the same hand make them richer. I strongly believe no matter how good a mini game for scanning will be implemented in ME3, after the 50. time it will get boring. There simply were way too man rich planets. (Well, actually there were way too many resources and nothing really what you could do with them)
I also think adding yet another mini game into the planet scanning is counter productive. (Especially since this would me a mini game that you would most likely have to do thousands of times if you consider the amount of resource spots in ME2)
I would do it like this. You scan the planet like it is now, but with the proposed visual clues on how to better find rich spots. Once you find a spike you send a probe to mark the spot. Probes should be very cheap and available in much higher numbers. (Maybe have an option where you can make them out of resources, a little less efficient than buying them, but no need to fly to a refueling station) Then, when you are satisfied you get three options:

1. Sell the mining rights of your spots to a mining company. Netting you 50% of the money value of the spots you found.
2. Give Cerberus (or whoever you work with) the coordinates, netting you 40% of the resources you found (20% in actual resources, 20% in money) you found and 10% of the resources you did NOT find. (Again split half in money and resources)
3. Setting up a mining station on the planet netting you 100% of the resources you found. Of course you only have maybe 3 stations available on board and buying them (only option) is expensive.

In order for option 1 to make sense it would need to imply that you cannot sell minerals. (Else it would need to be tweaked further)

Then for each planet you would have to consider whether you really need money or resources. If you need a lot of resources but are okay with money you mine it yourself. If you don't want to bother scanning the whole planet all the time and don't want to waste a lot of money but know there are quite some resources let Cerberus do the job.

Modifié par XWAU_Forceflow, 24 février 2010 - 09:25 .

[Scarecrow_ES]

Force... your take on the planet scanning system would work fine. I don't see any real issue with it other than it becomes much easier. You get more with less work. If most players feel the same way about how much effort the put into a system versus how much they get out, then I have no doubt such a system would please a lot of people. Much of how your proposal works is actually remarkably similar to mine (though, I'd say, significantly less involved and less time consuming for far more "profit").



That's not to say that my system would be anywhere near as time consuming as the current ME2 system... time spent scanning the planet would be significantly reduced, but the addition of other gameplay features (including additional mini-games for procuring minerals, additional uses for minerals, a market system for trading minerals/credits, and associated side missions) expands the entirety of resource management beyond what we see in ME2, so much more action takes place outside of planet scanning in my system. I'd say then that as compared to the ME2 system, even though a player might spend the same amount of time over the course of the game engaged in resource management, he'd be doing a lot more and varied things and getting a lot more bang for his buck. Ultimately, that was my goal with the system.



Otherwise, we're on the same page as far as faster scanning on planets with fewer but richer resource deposits and far more options for using scanned mineral deposits. Personally, I want to see the resource management system expanded, as the practical uses for minerals were sort of an untapped gameplay treasure trove in ME2 - the possibilities for expanded uses for minerals in research and production are great.



As far as a possible way to gauge time for a system involving remote mineral harvesting over a period of time, I think there are certainly possibilities. If I were to propose a system, I might recommend a time played accrual system with milestone reward output. That is to say, minerals mined by deployed mining teams build up in real-time as the player plays at a fixed rate determined by the richness of the deposit and type of mineral. These "stockpiles" are then paid out to the player any time he reaches a game milestone (ending a mission a la ME2 for instance) or upon returning to the ship.



This avoids exploitation - if for instance a fixed payout occurs any time the player enters the ship, he could simply leave and enter repeatedly to build up his stocks,which is undesirable. It also rewards the player for time played, and not solely missions completed, ensuring that greater play time can mean greater reward - but given the extra options for dealing with mineral deposits, such as selling them outright for credits or other minerals, players who don't feel like investing in the more gradual payout can still reap significant rewards from scanning/selling.



In this way, I think the payout/time system remains fair no matter how you choose to play the game.

[Dokteur Kill]

Didn't see this thread until now, but the hybrid ammo system is pretty much exactly how I hope they'll do it in ME3.



I don't mind the ejectable heatsink idea as a way to quickly cool down you weapon, but hey... heat flows from warm objects to cold surroundings no matter what you do. It's a consequence of those pesky laws of thermodynamics.

[Arijharn]

Scarecrow_ES wrote...

Tornado, if the developers would actually want to add environment-specific effects on gameplay, I would be 100% for it! This is a missed opportunity for mission variety, I think. Maybe give us some limited 0-atmosphere combat, or have real gravity/atmosphere effects in gameplay. It might be difficult to program and balance with missions, but it would be very very cool.

To be perfectly honest, I hate this idea. Not because it isn't a good idea by any sense but because it adds unnecessary complexity. In the 'real world' it makes perfect sense to have differing cooling mechanics, but it isn't the real world, some decisions have to be argued against realism for the sake of gameplay.

[Dokteur Kill]

Dunno, it worked in Mechwarrior. And having to adapt to faster/slower cooling rates would add a bit of challenge and variety to the tactical missions.