903 réponses à ce sujet

[Andaius20]

Well Assassination, is sorta already implemented with the assassin cloak. Ideas fro adapting the Marksmen and Overkill skills aren't really that hard. Say Make Marksmen effect recoil effects on pistols. Making accurate rapid fire easier. Overkill could be made to boost RoF while greatly reducing accuracy. So it ends up being a stick it in there grill and hold down the trigger emergency ability to do as much damage with the AR as possible at point blank range.

[EternalWolfe]

Andaius20 wrote...

Well Assassination, is sorta already implemented with the assassin cloak. Ideas fro adapting the Marksmen and Overkill skills aren't really that hard. Say Make Marksmen effect recoil effects on pistols. Making accurate rapid fire easier. Overkill could be made to boost RoF while greatly reducing accuracy. So it ends up being a stick it in there grill and hold down the trigger emergency ability to do as much damage with the AR as possible at point blank range.

Well, actually, I was trying to come up with something better then a 'make my weapon better for a short time' power.  Carnage is not just a 'my shotgun is better' power, it actually takes the form of an actual power.  Both your ideas do work on direct transfer level though.

Soruyao wrote...
-Space Saving Snip-

-----------------Sniper Rifle-----------------
Ok, I'll admit, my first thought at the laser idea was 'lolwut?'  Just seemed out of place - why would my sniper rifle be shooting lasers.  Of course, then again, why would my shotgun shoot a fireball?

However, I think I can see a way to make it usable within the lore and basics.  Lorewise, the barrel of your gun is equipped with the laser(built-in like a second barrel) with its own power source or connected to the VI's power source.  The explination for why the skill is increasing the ability of a built-in module can be that your increasing your ability to wield it properly(rather then increasing the module itself, although that's possible as a upgrade).

The power could fire a set duration of laser burst - which could be swept across in close range, of course - before running out of juice and having to wait and recharge(cooldown).  Its power probably shouldn't be too high for obvious reasons, but it could have a slight 'cutting' effect, dealing damage through protection to make up for it.
-----------------Assault Rifle-----------------
As for your assualt rifle idea, it borrows a bit too much from Halo for my liking(nothing against the game, mind you).  I don't mind homing bullets, but I'm not sure how to explain it and make it make sense to be the AR power.  Might make a good 'ammo' power like Warp - character uses biotics to make the bullets home in on the enemy or uses their omni-tool to help calibrate the VI to do the same.

Sitting here thinking about it, I kept trying to come up with an AR power that helped its(rather small) weaknesses while not just being a 'make my gun better' power.  I finally thought, maybe a low powered grenade launcher, which would give CC in close and having a better 'accuaracy' at longer range because its a directed ballistic instead of rapid fire+recoil.  Then I smacked myself in the head - we already have an AR power.

Concussive Shot is the same basic idea - provides CC upclose(should make protected enemies stumble like you do when your shields break) and allows better accuracy at long range(not sure how it works with SoldierShep though, is it ballistic or just instant-fire like allies?).  And its already a soldier specific power(and the AR is a Soldier specific weapon).  Explain it as a small underbarrel concussive grenade meant to be used as a deterrent to close range(read:Krogan) foes and tweak it for AR use only.  Another explination for it(since ME2 doesn't really give one, except to call it a concussive 'round') could be to say its a mass effect burst generator built to used like a concussive grenade launcher(which would explain why it would need to 'recharge' to be used again).
-----------------Pistol&SMG-----------------
Hmm, I'm unsure of exploding ammo - it seems you'll either end up with something that's too useful or not useful enough.  Also, it seems too much like a limited form of an 'ammo' power to me, but its still something to think about, I guess.  The SMG idea seems a both OP and useless to me at the same time - I can usually wipe shields out fairly quick as it is if I have Overload and the smg normal bullets, plus ignoreing the defenses sortof goes against why they are there.  Maybe some limited shield penetration(ie do damage to shield and to health/next defense at the same time), although, again, it seems more like an ammo thing to me.

One thing I considered was to completly ignore them and not give them a power at all.  Yeah, yeah, i know, lazy, but the classes that only have these weapons(which are more sidearms in this game then anything) are the Adept, Engineer, and Sentinel - these three seem more then variable enough from their Tech/Biotics to need special weapon powers to add to the mix(it should also be noted, these are the only ones without any ammo powers at all).

A few other powers that I thought of were:
Taser - short/mid range CC with minor damage(higher effectivness vs Shields and Synthetics)(either)

'Tracker' Round - Fires a tracker round, that on contact with a enemy sends information back to the VI, letting it alter bullet trajectories slightly, so bullets fired close enough in it's direction will fire towards it instead of perfectly strait ahead.(best for SMG)

Also, giving in the obvious 'make my gun better' power, Andaius' idea of making a 'Marksman' power that causes lower recoil would work.  Throw in increased accuracy(mainly for SMGs, so they don't go spitting off target as quick) and you can save a power slot for all the classes except Soldier, as well as keeping the power ratio the same(Disruptor = Sniper power, Incendiary = Carnage, Cryo = 'Marksman', and Concussive Shot = AR power).

[Scarecrow_ES]

While it seems that Soruyao and I argue a lot, we seem to have very similar sensibilities. There's a lot in your last post I would agree with... such as making the rock-paper-scissors mechanic more stringent - especially on higher difficulties. This would be a far better way to add use to your arsenal of weapons than simply limiting ammo. If on higher difficulty levels you might actually struggle to take down a shielded and armored opponent while using the wrong weapon/ammo configuration you'd definitely be more likely to change it up. Of course, that will require the game be far clearer on what trumps what - it's only largely vague on that now, and it's entirely possible to ignore this mechanic altogether.



My only disappointment about not having more lengthy support posts is that in reading this discussion it appears there is far more opposition to the proposals than it is. It goes beyond just a few brilliant individuals expressing concerns or playing devil's advocate. But yeah, that is the nature of the beast.

[Scarecrow_ES]

As another point of the discussion of they hybrid heat system, I want to pose this concept:



I am, as are most people familiar with the discussion, aware that BioWare had previously attempted some sort of hybrid heat system, and that this system persisted well into development. Clearly, as has been mentioned before, BioWare found something lacking in this system and decided to go with a more traditional ammo system instead. Now, I've also heard mention that it is possible to reactivate some of the code from this heat management system in PC versions of the game. Unfortunately, though, I haven't yet seen any information from any individual who has tried this to determine just how this system works. I'm positive there's probably a post or something out there, I just haven't seen it and am perhaps too busy to really look for it.



On a related tangent: Military weapon designers today are experimenting with various forms electrically-driven weapon systems that fire projectiles at great speeds without using chemical propellants. One such system is a "rail gun" which places a magnetically-sensitive projectile between two electrically-conductive rails, and upon passing power through these rails the projectile is accellerated forward at high speeds away from the weapon.



I mention this tangent because it had been believed until very recently that such a system was an entirely new and novel invention. In fact, such "rail gun" systems had existed on paper well before WWII, and related patents exist around the world as early as the late 1800's. The point here being: I do not believe that my hybrid heat management system for weapons is an entirely new or novel system. I am aware that a system of this type had been tried previously. However, just as with the "rail gun" perhaps there was something lacking in this earlier attempt that would have led to a fully functioning system, and it merely took more time, more energy, and more thought to come up with a viable solution.



Food for thought.

[Andaius20]

IIRC it's a regenerating ammo clip when you stopped shooting.

[Scarecrow_ES]

Hmmm, not quite like mine then, I think.

[Soruyao]

EternalWolfe wrote...

-----------------Sniper Rifle-----------------
Ok, I'll admit, my first thought at the laser idea was 'lolwut?'  Just seemed out of place - why would my sniper rifle be shooting lasers.  Of course, then again, why would my shotgun shoot a fireball?

However, I think I can see a way to make it usable within the lore and basics.  Lorewise, the barrel of your gun is equipped with the laser(built-in like a second barrel) with its own power source or connected to the VI's power source.  The explination for why the skill is increasing the ability of a built-in module can be that your increasing your ability to wield it properly(rather then increasing the module itself, although that's possible as a upgrade).

The power could fire a set duration of laser burst - which could be swept across in close range, of course - before running out of juice and having to wait and recharge(cooldown).  Its power probably shouldn't be too high for obvious reasons, but it could have a slight 'cutting' effect, dealing damage through protection to make up for it.

Yeah, one of the major things that made carnage so interesting was how that it was flashy.  It was a flashy cooldown that made the gun do something you wouldn't usually expect a gun to do.   It also could kill a group of enemies in good conditions, or heavily damage/kill one enemy in worse conditions.   I think that any power we come up with should fulfil all of those requirements, plus trying to keep with the "theme" of the weapon and having it balance out weak areas the weapon might have.

I think the laser fulfils all of these requirements.  In effect, you would turn your sniper into a more powerful but short lived version of the collector particle beam.  It would be something that functions a little more like the weapon the collector ship fires. (Though you should make it a different color so it looks more like human technology.  Red maybe, like carnage?)

-----------------Assault Rifle-----------------
As for your assualt rifle idea, it borrows a bit too much from Halo for my liking(nothing against the game, mind you).  I don't mind homing bullets, but I'm not sure how to explain it and make it make sense to be the AR power.  Might make a good 'ammo' power like Warp - character uses biotics to make the bullets home in on the enemy or uses their omni-tool to help calibrate the VI to do the same.

Sitting here thinking about it, I kept trying to come up with an AR power that helped its(rather small) weaknesses while not just being a 'make my gun better' power.  I finally thought, maybe a low powered grenade launcher, which would give CC in close and having a better 'accuaracy' at longer range because its a directed ballistic instead of rapid fire+recoil.  Then I smacked myself in the head - we already have an AR power.

Concussive Shot is the same basic idea - provides CC upclose(should make protected enemies stumble like you do when your shields break) and allows better accuracy at long range(not sure how it works with SoldierShep though, is it ballistic or just instant-fire like allies?).  And its already a soldier specific power(and the AR is a Soldier specific weapon).  Explain it as a small underbarrel concussive grenade meant to be used as a deterrent to close range(read:Krogan) foes and tweak it for AR use only.  Another explination for it(since ME2 doesn't really give one, except to call it a concussive 'round') could be to say its a mass effect burst generator built to used like a concussive grenade launcher(which would explain why it would need to 'recharge' to be used again).

I think a grenade launcher would be too similar to both carnage and concussive shot, oh and the grenade launcher heavy weapon of course.  (I think concussive shot is kind of a spiritual successor to carnage in the first place.)  

I agree that my needler idea wasn't very fleshed out, since I was about to pass out.  However, the basic idea is that the needler is flashy, it kills groups of enemies (in ideal situations), and it kills them in a novel way.   Now, we don't need to take the entire weapon to get some inspiration for a weapon power from it.

There are two main aspects to the needler, the homing and the supercombining.   I think either one alone could make for an interesting weapon that isn't just IP theft.  (Unless you think every time a rocket launcher is in a FPS is a dev stealing from doom.) This lets us create two interesting weapon powers!

1. Homing projectiles:   Now, since we're dealing with energy weaponry for the other bonus power, these don't have to be bullets.   Lets say you pop the cooldown and then for a few seconds you start firing a steam of short and thin beams which track through the air and hit the target closest to what you were aiming at.   This fits thematically with the assault rifle becuause it's all about spray and pray.  What works better for spraying and praying than a fire and forget attack?

2. Supercombining:  Supercombining is where you hit an enemy with a certain amount of your projectile and then they detonate.   A weapon power that does this would cause your bullets to stick your enemy with tiny glowing dots.  When you hit them with enough of them, something would happen.  That something would probably be some kind of explosion.  Give it some flashy effect and interesting colors and we'd be on to something.    This would fit thematically with the assault rifle because it's about hitting a guy with spray of bullets and really shutting him down.   It would reward accuracy and focusing on that one guy by allowing you to take out several of his friends too.

(I've seen a lot of homing lasery things in games, but I have never seen a weapon that doesn't home supercombine.   Of course, bungie is making a weapon that does that for their next game, but as far as I know it's never been done outside of their studio.)

-----------------Pistol&SMG-----------------
Hmm, I'm unsure of exploding ammo - it seems you'll either end up with something that's too useful or not useful enough.  Also, it seems too much like a limited form of an 'ammo' power to me, but its still something to think about, I guess. 

The idea here is to turn each shot into a delayed detonation, a la this weapon.   It would fit heavy pistols well because there would be a strong focus on making a limited number of shots really count.   If you got a few headshots on even a heavily armored guy, you'd take them down, and the splash damage would be a nice little bonus.

It wouldn't work as an ammo power at all because it would be too powerful to keep on all the time.   Ideally, if every shot connected on a single target, you would end up with a bit more dps than carnage.  (But this would take enough skill that it would usually even out.   Higher risk = higher reward.

The SMG idea seems a both OP and useless to me at the same time - I can usually wipe shields out fairly quick as it is if I have Overload and the smg normal bullets, plus ignoreing the defenses sortof goes against why they are there.  Maybe some limited shield penetration(ie do damage to shield and to health/next defense at the same time), although, again, it seems more like an ammo thing to me.

It can't be both OP and useless at the same time. =o   I doubt it would be useless because most enemies have a lot more defense than health (on insanity.)  You could use it to clear a group of husks on insanity as if it were normal mode, or you could use it to do heavy damage to a single powerful target.      Although... it definitely wouldn't work on armor only bosses.   Maybe you're right, I can see a lot of situations where that would end up with some funky and not-fun results.  (I just pictured killing a ymir mech by using the power and shooting it for awhile, and then hiding until the cooldown is up and finishing it off through shields.   Blech.)

K, can that idea!

Though, maybe we could use the homing shot idea for the AR and the supercombining for the SMG?   

A few other powers that I thought of were:
Taser - short/mid range CC with minor damage(higher effectivness vs Shields and Synthetics)(either)

I like the idea of a taser.  It definitely makes sense for SMGs thematically because they're all about getting up close and personal.   The weakness of a SMG is that ranges where the SMG are accurate can be dangerous. The taser would address that by locking down a target long enough for you to safely fill 'im fulla lead.

'Tracker' Round - Fires a tracker round, that on contact with a enemy sends information back to the VI, letting it alter bullet trajectories slightly, so bullets fired close enough in it's direction will fire towards it instead of perfectly strait ahead.(best for SMG) 

This is an interesting idea, but it seems like it could be kind of boring.  I mean, you're just turning up the autoaim for a little while, in effect.   I was thinking though that a possible power for soldiers, or a weapon power for the AR, could be temporary lock on "sticky" targeting.   You would activate the skill and then when you start firing, a red square would appear around what you were aiming at.   As long as you hold the trigger down, your character stays oriented and locked on that target regardless of your movements.    You would select a new target by letting go of the trigger and aiming at a new target.

This would allow you to sort of run and gun for a little while and focus entirely on your movement and location instead of accuracy for a little while.   Call it "Run and gun mode." 

Also, giving in the obvious 'make my gun better' power, Andaius' idea of making a 'Marksman' power that causes lower recoil would work.  Throw in increased accuracy(mainly for SMGs, so they don't go spitting off target as quick) and you can save a power slot for all the classes except Soldier, as well as keeping the power ratio the same(Disruptor = Sniper power, Incendiary = Carnage, Cryo = 'Marksman', and Concussive Shot = AR power).

It would work, but it would be kinda boring I think, especially compared with things that make crazy explosions!


Man!  Brainstorming is fun!

Modifié par Soruyao, 14 mars 2010 - 11:08 .

[Soruyao]

Scarecrow_ES wrote...

While it seems that Soruyao and I
argue a lot, we seem to have very similar sensibilities. There's a lot
in your last post I would agree with... such as making the
rock-paper-scissors mechanic more stringent - especially on higher
difficulties. This would be a far better way to add use to your arsenal
of weapons than simply limiting ammo. If on higher difficulty levels
you might actually struggle to take down a shielded and armored opponent
while using the wrong weapon/ammo configuration you'd definitely be
more likely to change it up. Of course, that will require the game be
far clearer on what trumps what - it's only largely vague on that now,
and it's entirely possible to ignore this mechanic altogether.

Yeah, I definitely agree that the system needs to be more clear about what trumps what.   Honestly, I think simply dialing up resistances alone would accomplish this.    I might dump a couple clips of my SMG into a krogan and go "Wow! These yellow bar guys are really tough"   Then maybe I run out of ammo and pull out my heavy pistol, and his armor gets blasted off.   "Wow, this thing worked really well against those yellow health bars!"

Either that or, if the ammo system is gone, a little popup comes up that says "by the way, yellow health bars are weak to heavy pistols, you should try that."   :3

My
only disappointment about not having more lengthy support posts is that
in reading this discussion it appears there is far more opposition to
the proposals than it is. It goes beyond just a few brilliant
individuals expressing concerns or playing devil's advocate. But yeah,
that is the nature of the beast.

To an untrained eye it might seem like that, but I think if christina looks through this topic, she'll be able to parse what's really going on.  (If you are reading this, hi!)

Scarecrow_ES wrote...

As another point of the discussion of they hybrid heat system, I want to pose this concept:

I am, as are most people familiar with the discussion, aware that BioWare had previously attempted some sort of hybrid heat system, and that this system persisted well into development. Clearly, as has been mentioned before, BioWare found something lacking in this system and decided to go with a more traditional ammo system instead. Now, I've also heard mention that it is possible to reactivate some of the code from this heat management system in PC versions of the game. Unfortunately, though, I haven't yet seen any information from any individual who has tried this to determine just how this system works. I'm positive there's probably a post or something out there, I just haven't seen it and am perhaps too busy to really look for it.

If I could ask one question of a bioware dev, it would be for them to explain how their hybrid setup worked and why exactly they scrapped it.    I think that it would explain a lot and it might stop people from giving them ideas that they may have already tried.   If we knew exactly what the problem was, it could be addressed directly, instead of reinventing the wheel and creating the system again ourselves.

On a related tangent: Military weapon designers today are experimenting with various forms electrically-driven weapon systems that fire projectiles at great speeds without using chemical propellants. One such system is a "rail gun" which places a magnetically-sensitive projectile between two electrically-conductive rails, and upon passing power through these rails the projectile is accellerated forward at high speeds away from the weapon.

I mention this tangent because it had been believed until very recently that such a system was an entirely new and novel invention. In fact, such "rail gun" systems had existed on paper well before WWII, and related patents exist around the world as early as the late 1800's. The point here being: I do not believe that my hybrid heat management system for weapons is an entirely new or novel system. I am aware that a system of this type had been tried previously. However, just as with the "rail gun" perhaps there was something lacking in this earlier attempt that would have led to a fully functioning system, and it merely took more time, more energy, and more thought to come up with a viable solution.

Food for thought.

I do think that a hybrid system could potentially work, though I as a player would definitely prefer being able to continue to use weapons the way they are now.   That's why I went through so much trouble to make up a system with both kinds of weapons coexisting.

There is definite bias at play on my end.  I love my death blaster widow to no end, and I don't at all mind that sometimes I can't use it.   I'd rather have a gun I only use sometimes that is amazing than a weapon I can use all the time but that is kind of underwhelming.   I understand that this could potentially be a false dichotomy, but I just never ever want to have to deal with something like the ME1 sniper again.

That weapon was awful, and I think part of why it was awful (besides the lack of headshots) was because it was balanced as an "all the time" weapon.  For me, a sniper rifle is about burst damage.  When I shoot someone in the head, he should take massive damage and sometimes die.    You can't balance an "all the time" weapon around doing that because then the other weapons start to look weak.   The ME1 sniper had the ability to kill something from so far away it's poor AI couldn't even react, but it was counterbalanced by having what seemed like the lowest dps out of any of the weapon types.  (Of course, on any mode lower than insanity this didn't matter much, but on insanity it was incredibly slow and frustrating to kill anything with a sniper rifle.)

I still have nightmares about having to kill a krogan warlord that spams immunity and does that thing where they come back to life and get full health every time they die.  True story.  It's enough to give an infiltrator PTSD.  A lot of why I oppose the hybrid or classic systems is rooted in those nightmares.

Modifié par Soruyao, 15 mars 2010 - 02:25 .

[Scarecrow_ES]

The interesting thing about the new combat system, specifically with the addition of body target zones, is that when presented with targets that have no proper defense against a snipe shot, the heavier sniper rifles can be purely devastating. It almost makes sense when all you're seeing is naked (without shields, armor, or barrier) enemies running out onto the field that a sniper rifle could end up being ridiculously overpowered if you gave it more play time with increased ammo reserves or whatever. However, this is really only an issue early in the game or with lower difficulty levels.



The only real issue I have with your last series of arguements is a largely different experience I had with the ME1 sniper. I usually had at least 2 different setups for my Spectre Master sniper rifle. One was a "fire as much as you want" setup with Snowblind ammo, where I could mash the trigger and it'd never overheat. Of course it was weaker and was really only good for dealing with crowd threats. My other version was a down and dirty point target threat eliminator. This was a one-shot killing machine which was guaranteed to overheat any time you fired it, but did massive damage. Immunity on a Krogan really did suck at the higher difficulty levels, but my 2nd rifle had no problem keeping them from doing their little resurrection routine.



I made sniping an artform in ME1. With my full 225% Assassinate bonus, I was freaking deadly. To be honest, not even the Widow on a fully upgraded Infiltrator can come close to the damage I could unleash in ME1. Sniping in ME2 has always felt weak to me, at least in the sense that you never really get to the max level you did in ME1 if you focused your skill set around sniping. I think I'd agree that these sniper rifles are much more powerful for weak characters... they start out strong out the gate, but they never quite get up there like they used to.

[D.I.Y_Death]

Not a fan of the chemistry mini game idea. Shepard is known for blowing things up, not performing scientific analysis of geological survey samples.



I'd rather see planet scanning take a back seat role and a stock market system put into play utilizing brokers like the one in ME1 to cover your tracks in case that information could make people question Shepard's motives and impact character interaction and possibly the plot.

[SurfaceBeneath]

Scarecrow_ES wrote...
I made sniping an artform in ME1. With my full 225% Assassinate bonus, I was freaking deadly. To be honest, not even the Widow on a fully upgraded Infiltrator can come close to the damage I could unleash in ME1. Sniping in ME2 has always felt weak to me, at least in the sense that you never really get to the max level you did in ME1 if you focused your skill set around sniping. I think I'd agree that these sniper rifles are much more powerful for weak characters... they start out strong out the gate, but they never quite get up there like they used to.

See now, as someone who was Infiltrator main in ME1 and who carried that character into ME2, I'm just amazed at how different the conclusions you are drawing are. The Sniper Rifle is just so damn powerful in ME2, and even on Insanity you can make very quick work of an entire field of enemies if you're precise and abuse Assassination Cloak and the Widow. I mean, seriously the number of +% damage you can get off of a headshot in ME2 is ridiculous. +225% assassination cloak (or a soldier's +100% ARush), +10% from the N7 visor, +50% from the headshot upgrade in addition to all the passive increases is from your class and upgrades and ammo (if you're using warp or AP ammo). We're talking damage easily in the +400% range. I'm pretty certain that the scaling between ME1's sniper rifle early game to late game was actually less extreme than ME2s.

A Krogan on Insanity in ME1 still required that you pump dozens of rounds into them depending on how their Immunity played out. Harbinger took... 3 shots? Maybe?

Modifié par SurfaceBeneath, 15 mars 2010 - 07:19 .

[WillieStyle]

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

Scarecrow_ES wrote...
I made sniping an artform in ME1. With my full 225% Assassinate bonus, I was freaking deadly. To be honest, not even the Widow on a fully upgraded Infiltrator can come close to the damage I could unleash in ME1. Sniping in ME2 has always felt weak to me, at least in the sense that you never really get to the max level you did in ME1 if you focused your skill set around sniping. I think I'd agree that these sniper rifles are much more powerful for weak characters... they start out strong out the gate, but they never quite get up there like they used to.

See now, as someone who was Infiltrator main in ME1 and who carried that character into ME2, I'm just amazed at how different the conclusions you are drawing are. The Sniper Rifle is just so damn powerful in ME2, and even on Insanity you can make very quick work of an entire field of enemies if you're precise and abuse Assassination Cloak and the Widow. I mean, seriously the number of +% damage you can get off of a headshot in ME2 is ridiculous. +225% assassination cloak (or a soldier's +100% ARush), +10% from the N7 visor, +50% from the headshot upgrade in addition to all the passive increases is from your class and upgrades and ammo (if you're using warp or AP ammo). We're talking damage easily in the +400% range. I'm pretty certain that the scaling between ME1's sniper rifle early game to late game was actually less extreme than ME2s.

A Krogan on Insanity in ME1 still required that you pump dozens of rounds into them depending on how their Immunity played out. Harbinger took... 3 shots? Maybe?

^This.
I don't understand how anyone can conclude that sniping was more powerful in ME1.
With heavy warp ammo, and full upgrades I can 2-3 shot harbinger.  I can 1-shot any non-elite mob in the game.  This is on insanity.  How much more powerful can Sniper Rifles get without becoming overpowered.

In any case, put me down as someone else vehemently against any sort of hybrid ammo system.  Finite ammo is an unmittigated good.

Modifié par WillieStyle, 15 mars 2010 - 07:37 .

[WillieStyle]

Scarecrow_ES wrote...


For instance, much of the praise for the new ammo system stems from a few key issues: it "encourages" (read: forces) the use of multiple weapon types, and it discourages indiscriminate use of higher-powered weaponry - both of these "praiseworthy" ideals were listed as faults of the original Mass Effect system. Detractors of the new system argue that it does not treat all weapons equally, and that it does not allow continual usage of a player's primary weapon through an entire firefight - two things the original system did well. Rectifying these issues needs to be a goal for the next game. I've put forth one way to do that that seems to please the overwhelming mojority of individuals, even if they truly LIKE the current system (and I get zero arguement from those who praise the old one).

I'm going to have to disagree with this.
I've completed ME2 3 times with an Infiltrator: once on Hardcore and twice on Insanity.  In my last Insanity playthrough, I used the Widow exclusively in the vast majority of fights. The only times I switched weapons:
-To trip the shields off a YMIR mech (The tempest does this much faster).
-Used the particle beam to shoot the tubes on the human reaper (Widow reloads too slowly).

There isn't a single fight in the game where moving around the battlefield aggressively won't net you enough ammo to use the Widow exclusively.  That is, as long as you make your headshots, pick targets intelligently (don't shoot a half-dead collector drone who's floating in a pull field), and use the proper ammo types.

Modifié par WillieStyle, 15 mars 2010 - 07:54 .

[Chaoswind]

Hi everyone.



You could say I made an user account just for this, so bear with it.



First Problem: Weapon diversity:<_<



Ok I LOVE the way you upgrade a weapon class of Mass Effect, IE all
pistols, all snipers, etc, and how the ammo system forces you to use/change
weapons (from time to time, because I could deal with almost anything with my
assault rifle/sniper combo) BUT the diversity of weapons (in my 4 playthroughs
I only found 2 pistols, 3 assault rifles "love the Geth Assault
rifle", 3 shotguns, 2 smgs, and 3 snipers).

 

I short, you should keep the Global upgrade system for
weapons, but should make more weapons available, OR let players modify the
weapons with parts they find.

 

Second Problem: Lack of Powers:

Really, what is with the FEW
powers for your allies and almost nonexistent passive bonuses for them… OK I
know this was to make them stand and be very different with each other, but
having 2 abilities and a 3 one blocked isn’t what I would call a good thing…
DAMN in Mass Effect 2 your allies where almost useless… I was dealing with MOST
problems by myself and telling Miranda to stay FAR away under a rock, so I
could use her overload and Barrier without getting her killed… heck the only 2
allies that are truly useful in a fight are Grunt and Legion (Jacob is not as useful
as them).

I don’t want to complain, but in Mass Effect levels have
little impact on a situation, a situation that was hard in level 5 is almost as
hard in level 30… the main difference is the amount of powers you can use to systematically
tear your enemies apart, then again that is a GOOD thing.

 

After complaining I:

I say to give your allies and Shepard more powers, bonuses and
more points to spend.

Keep the global cool down for powers (it forces people to
THINK before using them).

Give us more points and more abilities to learn, Mass Effect
did that JUST fine.

Keep Loyalty missions, and how they unlock a character
special and UNIQUE power.

 

Third Problem: Exploration:

OK, I played Mass Effect 2
before playing Mass Effect 1, and I have to say I HATED probes and all the time
I had to spend browsing planets, just to go to the nearest fuel station to buy
probes… I hated that UNTIL, I played Mass Effect and the Survey appeared… so
you just fly by a planet to find a SINGLE point of interest and keep going like
nothing happened? … that is BORING.

After playing Mass Effect 2, I have to say I LOVE the Mako,
but If I had played Mass Effect 1 first then I would HATE IT.

 

Suggestion:

Probes are FINE, for let’s say Planets like Jupiter, in with
Landing is NOTHING more than a dream, but we should be able to explore a little
more… I don’t want the Mako back, the lifeless planets with Mountains, monkeys
and BUGs are NO fun and certainly take too much time for both the player and
the developers.

I think the BEST approach is to simply make a minigame with
your SHIP (like in Jade empire, just 600% more awesome) in with we are able to
raid pirate ships, destroy bases and drop nukes in points of interest , to me
THAT is the BEST approach to the exploration issue, and you end using the MANY
upgrades you have to buy for your ship in something else than (will we survive
or not) the last mission.

 

 

Now My final suggestion: :innocent:

 

Ok Shepard is a bloody hero (AGAIN), but to add a little
spice to things we should be able to play as someone else for Mass Effect 3,
and this time we should have a little more influence in our new character past,
than Place of Birth and Highlight of military career.

Ok everyone will start to SHOUT, what about all the things I
did? Yada yada yada… well if you export your Mass Effect 2 Shepard then Shepard
is going to be around doing Hero deeds and hearing about him/her in the news,
and why not meet him/her and his/her crew in more than a few missions.

If not then Shepard never returned from the Collectors
mission and the universe will be screwed.

Anyway, you could hear about the Flotilla launching an attack
on the geth, just to fail miserably… or them beginning to colonize a world… or
why not the Geth coming out of the veil as diplomats, with EVIDENCE to FINALY
take the stick from the council’s ass… you could hear about Cerberus
experiments going public (if you upload the info to the alliance in that
mission) or Cerberus being perceived as an ally to the galactic community, etc

Heck you could hear about Shepard getting married to Tali
and Tali becoming part of the admiralty board on her fleet… anyway enough about
that.

 

In short this is what I want:

 

Select Origins

Spacer: The Same

Colonist: The Same

Earthboundjim: o.o

Select Organization:

Cerberus Agent: Yes you are an agent of Cerberus and guess
what, most aliens don’t like you a whole much… unless Shepard managed to change
the light in with Cerberus is seen… In a renegade ending you report to Shepard
and join efforts to stop the reapers.

Alliance Operative: You report to Undina (EWWWW)or Anderson
(Thanks GOD) and General Mack Nuts, and initially are set to your own missions
until the reapers begin their attack or (IF you did this and THAT) until the
Geth probe the existence of the reapers. (with is 6 missions earlier)

Spectre: You report to the council IE Undina or Anderson, or
those guys with an STICK from ME1, and you are set to your own missions until
the reapers attack (thing the council doesn’t believe and you start to work against
the reapers a few missions later (and If the Geth probe the existence of the
reapers you are sent to see if this information is real)

 

Highlight Career:

Pretty much the same…

 

 

This time missions could be about changing the IFF’s so the
reapers can no longer use the relays and THUS slow the rate of massacre,
positioning a fleet to catch a few reapers off guard and etc…

 

The game should have hidden counters (or not hidden) of the amount
of Ships and time the Anti-Reaper alliance has… having substantially more if
the Geth like you, and the Quarians didn’t fight them or those could be
missions… getting the Geth to support the Anti-Reaper military >_>

 

Anyway Enough for know, because I have to go to work.

 

PS: English is my third language so beat it.

Modifié par Chaoswind, 15 mars 2010 - 04:10 .

[Scarecrow_ES]

DIY Death, I might be able to see where you were coming from there if you didn't spend so much time in ME1 surveying planets, mining mineral deposits, collecting resources, compiling asari writings, locating prothean data discs, dog tags, medallions, insignias, and other assorted junk.



Surface and Willie... I might agree that the base sniper rifles available in ME2 start out at a much more powerful level than the sniper rifles in ME1. On that level they are superior, as it is basically like starting the game with Spectre gear. However, comparing a fully upgraded rifle between the two games, allowing for class-specific skill bonuses but DISCOUNTING armor bonuses and headshot multipliers (neither of which were available in ME1), the ME1 sniping system was more powerful for a fully upgraded character. If we applied the same system with ME2's various armor bonuses for damage, accuracy, and headshot bonuses and the ability to make body-part specific damage targeting (headshots), then ME1's system would be much more powerful than 2's system. However, since that isn't possible, ME2's system, if all possible applicable bonuses are applied, will allow headshots from a fully upgraded Infiltrator to be more powerful (coming from Tactical Cloak). That's a lot of if's though to make that happen.



As to your second point, Willie. The concepts of sniping and moving around the battlefield to collect ammo don't exactly go together. Each kinda precludes the other, which is a point I've often made in this topic.



Chaos... thanks for taking the time to post. You did well for having english as your thrid language. Let me just say that some of your ideas are already reflected in my topic proposals, so there should be some things in there you'd like. I'm glad you decided to register and join our little discussion here, and hope you found it interesting and informative.

[Andaius20]

Also Willie I don't see how you'd be able to do what you said As even if you get headshot one hit kills the widow only hold like 12 rounds and you can easily face more enemies than then that. So it would be impossible to use it "exclusively" in any large battle.

[Scarecrow_ES]

Well, what Willie said is that he goes up and collects ammo during the fight. Realistically, if you kill a few guys and then move up to pick up their clip drops and look for the clips that appear in specific locations around each little battle arena you come to, you might be able to find just enough clips laying around to get through most lower intensity battles as long as you make each shot count. Of course, wading into the middle of a firefight to scrounge for thermal clips while being shot at or swarmed isn't exactly "sniping," is it?

[Scarecrow_ES]

Wow, once this sucker gets off the first page, getting anyone to post in it is darn near impossible. I really do wish I had my sticky back for awhile.

[Chaoswind]

My little sister agrees with me, ME1 is superior to ME2 in many ways.

Combat: ME2 wins: really the combat system a la Gears of War is pretty well done, is easy to get behind cover and the chances of leaving/entering cover mode without wanting to are very slim, and the simplified team commands (Q and E) make issuing orders in real time an easier task (is MUCH better to put the game in pause because the game sometimes doesn't understand where you want them to be).

FLAW: The cover system turns the game into a walk in the park, most enemies wouldn't bother to flank you and I only found myself dying at the hands of Scions+Husk and the Praetorians+Husk.

Inventory: ME2 wins: Is unreal to carry 150 items around in a pocket black hole.

Powers: ME1 wins: Don't take me wrong, Global cooldown is ok because it forces players to think before act, and ME2 has more powers in the overall, but Ammo powers? really? I wonder WHO THE HECK though that was a good idea.
ME2 has more powers, but is worthless because your mates don't have more than 3.

Exploration: ME1 wins: I played ME2 before playing the first one, and the exploration was more fun with the Mako than without it... Don't take me wrong, Mako + Mountains = pain in the ass, BUT is a lot more fun than shooting a probe at a single point of interest and discovering a mission.

FLAW: Survey is BORING as hell, and Shooting probes is TIRING as hell (unless you think they are missiles and the scanner scans lifeforms instead of minerals, Hehehe)

Levels: ME1 wins: Getting experience per mission, regardless of what you did in said mission?  VERY LIMITING. ME1 way of getting experience was a LOT better.

You earn experience with every kill, with every talk, with every encryption success. that way you REWARD those that are willing TO DO MORE and it boost the replay value, because you add a bonus to those that want to beat the game with the least levels and those that want to be lvl 380 paragon gods.

Looting: ME2 wins: Getting a gazillion weapons and ammo upgrades per mission and carring them? not good...
Scaning Weapons, Dead Body's, tehchnology and documents with your Omni Tool? PRICELESS and MAKES a lot more sense... in this game there shouldn't be a lot of fisical looting, but computacional looting should be all over the place, bank account transfers, schematics of weapons and new technology, THAT is the looting I want to see and I want it in BIG doses... there should be phisical looting as well, but should be limited to new weapons, armor parts and such.

Plot: ME1 wins: The plot in mass effect 2 was better written, but it seems a little forced and TOO LINEAR... I want forks... I want to take the side that is full or enemies and avoid the side with less enemies that leads to someone NOT being rescued by you OR VICE VERSA.

Conversations: ME2 wins: Your crew speaks with each other, there are a lot more dialogs and you can even interupt people in the middle of their speech, however this should be expanded, because lets face it, after a while the ship turns into a ghost ship, also your team mates are too Shepard oriented, I want them to like each other a little more often and talk about each other (things they like and don') and not just about each other, I want them to start conversations on their own... conflict AFTER loyalty missions was a START, but this could be improved and made them argue about PRESENT situations (the objetives of a mission, and how to do it), it would BOOST the overall experience BY A LOT.


Suggestion:
1- Get rid of Ammo powers, and bring weapon/armor customization back.
Ammo should stay as it was in Mass Effect 1, it made A WHOLE LOT more sense in that way
2- Get rid of Global cooldown and give team mates more powers to use, just make cooldown last longer as it was in Mass Effect 1 or longer, this improves the flow of battle because even if we have more powers to use, we have to be careful as to WHEN to use them because we won't be able to use them again for a while.
3- In ME2 most enemies will stay behind cover and shoot at you from a safe distance, the only enemies that wanted to get close where the guys  with shotguns and enemies that did mellee attacks.
That could be easily improved, just program the AI of the game to try to get closer/flank you in order to put presure on the players... but NOT like Krogan and their "I can take anything" aproach.
4. Thermal Clips have been explained and everything, but I enjoy the overload system a lot more, why not make it so without thermal clips, weapons will still fire, but the overload takes a whole lot longer to disipate, this is an improvement, because the main reason MOST enemies shields/armor/barriers didn't recharge was because players could easily run out of ammo and still have most of their enemies with health almost gone, yet full shields.
5. Combine both exploration aspects, shooting probes to look for minerals, yet LANDING whenever you found an anomaly (NO SHOOTING AT ANOMALIES), landing in the shuttle and choosing yourself where to land and what to explore... in this way we still get to explore what we want WITHOUT being messed up by mountains.
6. Bring back ME1 way of getting exp, please
7. I want to LOOT a lot, yet not phisical stuff as that wouldn't make a lot of sense (I still wonder WHERE Tali hid that geth drone).
8. I want my team mates to argue about present situations and the best way to complete the mission (did I mention, that I want more than ONE way of complete a mission)

Modifié par Chaoswind, 19 mars 2010 - 02:45 .

[EternalWolfe]

Chaoswind:

1 - I agree on both points, and furthermore think that Ammo powers should be replaced back by weapon powers.

2 - I like Scarecrow's idea better, it allows you to use multiple powers in a row(either same or combine) and, if the system is balanced right, still keeps you from becomeing overpowered with it. I have a basic lore explanation for the three different systems.

3 - Agree, enemy AI needs better protocols - covering fire, flanking, distraction, ect. Would help if squad AI jumped up a notch too.

4 - Basically what Scarecrow's is, only instead of waiting you use a limited supply of thermal clips to fix it. Use too many and you may find yourself in a pickle. The math of the system is easy enough to understand - I have it mostly figured out and on a spreadsheet(This is the stuff I do for fun, sad ain't it?)

5 - I agree that we could use a bit more exploration - from what I've seen of the Hammerhead, I like its quick style and its build would make it harder for it to get stuck with bad geomety. I like it's form better then the Mako, but I'm not sure how much 'exploration' it'll be allowed to do - probably none.

6 - This I disagree with - I'd rather have mission or objective based xp. This is helpful for your 8th point, as it means that you can have widely different paths to complete the mission, yet still get xp without having to kill everything in sight. I don't think every choice should end up in the same character, but character progression shouldn't be halted because you decided not to go wholesale slaughter on the enemy.

7 - Scanned loot can be increased by A) scanning mods for the system to fabricate, making research weapon/mod specific, so the Avenger goes to the Avenger "insert extra word to make Avenger sound better and more advanced", or Incendiary Ammo researches into Inferno Ammo, and C) having more armor parts and using some of them as loot as well(instead of all in stores).

[Biserthebomb]

Still think this should be stickied rather than the 'Mass Effect 3 Wish List' thread...

[yuncas]

Scarecrow_ES wrote...

Wow, once this sucker gets off the first page, getting anyone to post in it is darn near impossible. I really do wish I had my sticky back for awhile.

Bump for the reason above.

[Scarecrow_ES]

Biserthebomb... I think I agree with you that this would be a much more beneficial topic to sticky. Well, beneficial in that we've got real intelligible discussion on the basic deficiencies of ME gameplay, why they're deficient, and what can be done to fix them. Now obviously I tend to like my particular solutions better, but there've been dozens of very good ideas posted in this thread that, while not as "ideal" as I might believe my own solutions to be (certainly a matter of opinion), would work better than the systems in-place and if I couldn't have my way I'd definitely support many of them instead.



On one hand, I can definitely see why a thread like the ME3 wishlist is stickied and not mine. Let's face it, any yahoo with a hairbrained idea can go into that thread and post whatever they want, and people can bicker away about them all day long without really getting anywhere. It's an all inclusive topic. Everyone can feel free to post, and no idea is too stupid to discuss. We've got a much more narrow track here: "Fix what doesn't work, and improve what does." The nature of the discussion tends to keep out the trolls and flamers, and the better ideas tend to make their way to the front where real discussion happens.



Now, I had been promised a lot of exposure when I converted this thread, and for like, 2 hours I had it, and received several times the post in those two hours as I had in the other individual topics over a matter of days. Thankfully nearly all of those were positive. I'd certainly be happy to have the exposure back, because I feel the concepts discussed here in this thread, mine or others', are very worthwhile. Unfortunately, I'm still somewhat concerned that inviting everyone to the party will attract the bad element too. While I think the thread tends toward high-brow discussion, I'm not sure it could stay that way in the face of so much interest. Who knows.



Can you have your cake and eat it too?

[Scarecrow_ES]

I personally like the end-of-mission xp system. It does take some of the distraction away from the mission/story. However, I think only being rewarded for completing the mission is silly. ME1 was very RPG-ish in terms of mission structure and exploration. ME2 is more or less a linear game. There are moments of extremely limited freedom, book-ended by rigid and linear story missions, which make up most of the game.



On the one hand, I can see how this kind of mission structure makes sense for ME2. It keeps the story focused and the mission constantly moving forward. The devs can control how the story plays out, the pacing, etc, without having to take into account how the player is going to approach to mission. Just like with most systems in ME2, the player really only has one choice, and so the devs can focus on delivering the experience and not just the game. It's the very same thing that makes Infinity Ward's Modern Warfare 1 and 2 both a success and a failure. It's of course the very same for the Halo series. It's "set piece" combat. You go from arena to arena, scripted moment to scripted moment, and those moments are set up so you're supposed to feel like they're just happening. Then outside the mission you go from hub world to hub world in search of the next mission.



Now I agree that this structure allows for more "cinematic" touches for the story, but it absolutely kills the appearance of choice that is vital to the RPG genre. I mean, you don't have to have actual choice to satisfy most RPG fans, but you at least have to give the appearance that there is some, which is why I'm not totally a fan of the new ME2 mission structure.



Personally, I'd still like to see missions ended with a little brief like in ME2 where points are awarded all at once, but let's at least award experience for more than just the mission.



I'm not sure I really care about the loss of planetary exploration so much. I mean, I'd definitely like some, as with the new Hammerhead, when it suits the nature of the mission. What I'd like more of is exploration in hub planets. While the hub planets in ME2 were fairly large, there wasn't really anything in them. If you're going to create this big worlds, put stuff in them. Plus, I'm really not a fan of the one-and-you're-done mission zones. I want to be able to go back into these places and pick up anything I've missed.

[Scarecrow_ES]

Hate going a day without posts.