903 réponses à ce sujet

[Baskervore]

I think that they should put more rpg elements into mass effect. Me and dao play completely different.

[gauntz]

OneDrunkMonk wrote...

I think the difficulty lies in that we all like to "build" characters, that's one of the main attractions to an RPG, but that game dynamic doesn't translate well in Mass Effect. Certainly a character grows and becomes more proficient through experience but we are already at a point in the Mass Effect story where all the relevant characters are near top in their field. The only characters in ME2 that could realistically skill up is Shepard (due to bring brought back from the dead) and Grunt (for having most of his experience fed to him in a tank not a battlefield). As stated by others in this thread the rest of the team are already the best of the best. Pretty much the same can be said for armor and weapons. Sure, Cerberus scientist come out with a BFG5000 for you to use or you manage to find a rare armor upgrade on Omega, I can dig it. Otherwise you shouldn't need to do major upgrades.

None seemed to mind when Wrex the more than a thousand year old super mercenary, biotic Krogan who-happens-to-be-the-son-of-a-major-Krogan-leader started without proficiency with Shotgun.

[OneDrunkMonk]

gauntz wrote...

OneDrunkMonk wrote...

I think the difficulty lies in that we all like to "build" characters, that's one of the main attractions to an RPG, but that game dynamic doesn't translate well in Mass Effect. Certainly a character grows and becomes more proficient through experience but we are already at a point in the Mass Effect story where all the relevant characters are near top in their field. The only characters in ME2 that could realistically skill up is Shepard (due to bring brought back from the dead) and Grunt (for having most of his experience fed to him in a tank not a battlefield). As stated by others in this thread the rest of the team are already the best of the best. Pretty much the same can be said for armor and weapons. Sure, Cerberus scientist come out with a BFG5000 for you to use or you manage to find a rare armor upgrade on Omega, I can dig it. Otherwise you shouldn't need to do major upgrades.

None seemed to mind when Wrex the more than a thousand year old super mercenary, biotic Krogan who-happens-to-be-the-son-of-a-major-Krogan-leader started without proficiency with Shotgun.

Hey I enjoyed the skill tree in Mass Effect 1, but as you pointed out Wrex had to be skilled up by the player to use shotguns effectively and it doesn't really make sense as to why. I offer as an alternative for Mass Effect to move away from stacking and buffing and focus more on what a player does with existing team attributes. Reading the Mass Effect books you will see plenty of examples of where combat situations are won not necessarily by superior armor and firepower but by tactics. If the fear is that combat will get bogged down in choosing tactics I say then put in a gambit system.

[EternalWolfe]

Dualfinger wrote...

Personaly I reckon it's great, the people have their infinite ammo, and Bioware gets it's "reload" squence. Everyone wins!

The point of the thermal clip system was not to get a reload sequence, but to constrict players by making them think before throwing all their bullets downwind.  In the current system, this is done by rewarding ammo conservation - those who take their time and use their bullets to the greatest effects have more bullets to use at th eend - and punishing those who waste all their bullets by no longer being able to use that gun.

Scarecrow's system rewards those who watch their ammo consumption instead - which leads to similar tactics, such as carefully aiming your sniper rifle, or firing your AR in short bursts, then punishes those who do not, cutting the use of their gun off until they put in a new thermal clip, but only if you overheat the gun.

Your own system has no lasting punishment for overheating, and little reason not to just throw bullets downwind(actually, it seems extremly similar to ME1's system, only you manually activate the heat vents, which, if I remember correctly, is what ME1's guns had).
 

Scarecrow_ES wrote...

That's very creative, Dualfinger, and no doubt visually impressive, but I'm not sure if it fits any sort of realistic mechanic we could work into the game. Where would the "steam" come from?

<.<
>.>

Ahem . . .

"BVS(Burst-Vent System) Heat Sinks are a specialized Thermal Clip System, that is rapidly becoming more popular with military and mercenary groups.  Like other Thermal Clip Systems, it uses universal heat sinks that can be removed and replaced within weapons.  Unlike many TCSs, BVS Heat Sinks can only be used in guns designed for their special build.

BVS Heat Sinks use a liquid cooling system within a sealed partition, with cooling lasers like those used for Cryogenic Rounds keeping the liquid from overheating.  While these laser can deal with fairly high temperatures, size restrictions keep them from be competly effective against heat build-up.  When the expanding liquid and heat sink have reached sufficent temperatures that damage may occur to the interior of the gun, the pressure alerts the VI, who opens specials vents and releases the condensed liquid as a large burst of steam(hence, the name of the system).  While this does avoid damage to the gun that could cause major malfunctions, the clip left behind cannot rapidly lose heat, and must be replaced soon for best usage.

While BVS Heat Sinks have many advantages over other TCSs, the relatively high cost and need for specially modded weapons keep this system more for the use of Special Op squads and well-paid mercenary companies."

There you go, now you have a bit of lore supporting your heat sink system, along with the nice whoosh of steam when you overheat your gun.

[Scarecrow_ES]

Quite a few good posts since I was last in... I'm going to have to read through them all carefully so I don't miss anything when I posts responses.

[Dualfinger]

EternalWolfe wrote...

Dualfinger wrote...

Personaly I reckon it's great, the people have their infinite ammo, and Bioware gets it's "reload" squence. Everyone wins!

The point of the thermal clip system was not to get a reload sequence, but to constrict players by making them think before throwing all their bullets downwind.  In the current system, this is done by rewarding ammo conservation - those who take their time and use their bullets to the greatest effects have more bullets to use at th eend - and punishing those who waste all their bullets by no longer being able to use that gun.

Scarecrow's system rewards those who watch their ammo consumption instead - which leads to similar tactics, such as carefully aiming your sniper rifle, or firing your AR in short bursts, then punishes those who do not, cutting the use of their gun off until they put in a new thermal clip, but only if you overheat the gun.

Your own system has no lasting punishment for overheating, and little reason not to just throw bullets downwind(actually, it seems extremly similar to ME1's system, only you manually activate the heat vents, which, if I remember correctly, is what ME1's guns had).
 

Well I won't deny you, you've got some fair points there. But the old system also rewarded you for not blazing away too in fact nearly every modern game with a gun of any descrption will reward you for being careful with your shots. The clip system is toted be even the most lack-luster game, it's not really praise worthy material.  

Did the orginals system of infinte ammo but penalty's for overuse make the game pointlessly easy? You still needed to consider what you did or you'd find yourself on the wrong end of a Krogan with a dead weapon on hand.
And I'm also confident you wouldn't need to look too hard to find a lot of people disagreeing with the clip system.

I'm just trying to find a happy medium. I'm not saying I've found the perfect soloution, even to me the BVS would need tinkering to work well. But were tinkering applied I'm sure it would make for a good system. Besides, if infinte ammo returned, battles could become much more frantic and chaotic with both sides spraying bullets around in an attempt to force the other into cover rather then Shep sitting behind cover, waiting for a break before popping out for a few seconds, firing and hiding again as his shields are rapidly stripped away. 


Edit: Oh forgot to mention, the ME1 system had what I called a natural cooldown, aka the gun did the work, the user had no interaction with it.

Modifié par Dualfinger, 31 mars 2010 - 01:01 .

[Dualfinger]

Oh, but I did like to Codex-esque entry you wrote, I thought It was pretty damn compelling!

[Scarecrow_ES]

Dual... the second system you described in reply to my post is more or less how my system works. If we use the established lore and your recommendation to call it a BVS, and there is some sort of big vent process that occurs (quickly), I am all for that. The only thing that would need to occur from a gameplay perspective is to create a reason why the venting can only be accomplished a certain number of times, limiting how often if could be done.



Perhaps venting depletes a certain amount of the liquid coolant, of which you have a limited supply, and you have to scrounge for additional coolant on the battlefield, just as you would otherwise have to do for full thermal clips in my system. In this way, I imagine we still manage to stay in compliance to the lore, the mechanics of my system, and add the spectacular venting process you recommended (which I think would look pretty cool actually).



I do still have a concern with this "steam" vented overboard. From a reaslistic perspective, this creates a serious safety issue. The first, of course, is that you're venting a material that is likely hundreds of degrees to the atmosphere around you. While this presents the opportunity for some wonderful partical and heat distortion effects, in reality you're likely to suffer immediate burns and the whole flesh melting off thing. My second concern is what the coolant actually is.



All basic coolants we use in the real world are extremely harmful to living beings. I imagine any coolant used in a ME weapon would have to have a super capacity for heat absorbtion beyond what we know now. And you're basically releaseing a superheated cloud of this stuff right in front of your face where you can breath it in. If the instant lung melting doesn't kill you, the deadly poison gas will. If we can create a plausible scientific reason why you shouldn't die instantly when venting, there might be enough reason to suspend disbelief.

[RyuGuitarFreak]

OneDrunkMonk wrote...

I think the difficulty lies in that we all like to "build" characters, that's one of the main attractions to an RPG, but that game dynamic doesn't translate well in Mass Effect. Certainly a character grows and becomes more proficient through experience but we are already at a point in the Mass Effect story where all the relevant characters are near top in their field. The only characters in ME2 that could realistically skill up is Shepard (due to bring brought back from the dead) and Grunt (for having most of his experience fed to him in a tank not a battlefield). As stated by others in this thread the rest of the team are already the best of the best. Pretty much the same can be said for armor and weapons. Sure, Cerberus scientist come out with a BFG5000 for you to use or you manage to find a rare armor upgrade on Omega, I can dig it. Otherwise you shouldn't need to do major upgrades.

So in keeping with the Mass Effect story and characters as it stands now I propose that the emphasis go into actual hands-on tactics, good leadership skills and decision making as oppose to more toys and upgrades. Put it upon the player to make the most effective use of Shepard's skills. What you say in a situation has even more importance on the outcome. What you do in combat, how you position yourself and teammates, how you execute your and your teammates skills becomes even more important to the outcome of the battle.

By this I think we get a more evolved RPG experience. Instead of maxing everyone out with armor and weapons and such then throwing them haphazardly into combat why not put emphasis on how players actually make use of their kick-@ss team? I recommend expanding squad commands and put in a gambit system. One of the biggest challenges in both ME1 and ME2 is trying to keep your team alive and the enemy dead. God knows in ME1 I had to sometimes put my squad in a different room entirely in order for them not to charge in and get killed. So let's expand tactical commands, let your team members do as they do best but within the framework of your direction, your team leadership.

Too I think dialog and quicktime actions can be expanded, a good combination of thinking on your feet and careful consideration of all available information before proceeding. There is lot's of room for role-playing a character in Mass Effect, let's just move it beyond looting corpses and having to max out character skills, weapons and armor.

This is just my interpretation of your post:

Hmmm, dude, I think you want a Mass Effect Desperados game lol :happy:

Mass Effect is an action-shooter/rpg game. In my opinion these changes like gambit system and more tactic commands would take much of the action away for micromanaging your squad.

[Scarecrow_ES]

Yuncas, I definitely agree that the science the game lays down as being based upon should actually be reflected in the gameplay. As such, this glaring inconsistancy in weapon science and weapon reality is a fairly minor concern that is easily remedied by slight tweaks to gameplay (instantaneous bullet travel) and some lore modification to explain just how all that energy gets transferred to the target.



Consequently... even assuming a 100% increase in frontal surface area given a mushrooming effect once striking a target, that's still only going from a grain of sand to a grain of sand. The true effect is minimal. And 200mph? Naw. A 5.56mm NATO round travels at over 3,000ft/sec, or a mile in less than 2 seconds... that's roughly 2,000mph. You'd need to go hundreds of times faster than that to give a grain of sand as much energy as the bullet from an M16. A grain of sand traveling at even the same speed as the 5.56mm round will likely pass through the target largely unnoticed, with no more damage than had the person been stabbed with a small needle. Through and through.

[Scarecrow_ES]

MightyG... in response to your suggestion regarding global cooldowns... refer to my initial proposal. You'll find that what you describe is exactly what my system will do.

[Dualfinger]

Scarecrow_ES wrote...

Dual... the second system you described in reply to my post is more or less how my system works. If we use the established lore and your recommendation to call it a BVS, and there is some sort of big vent process that occurs (quickly), I am all for that. The only thing that would need to occur from a gameplay perspective is to create a reason why the venting can only be accomplished a certain number of times, limiting how often if could be done.

Perhaps venting depletes a certain amount of the liquid coolant, of
which you have a limited supply, and you have to scrounge for
additional coolant on the battlefield, just as you would otherwise have
to do for full thermal clips in my system. In this way, I imagine we
still manage to stay in compliance to the lore, the mechanics of my
system, and add the spectacular venting process you recommended (which
I think would look pretty cool actually).

I guess you could limit the number of times but that brings us back to the main problem with the clip system. For instance, I never touched the Hand Cannon because in a firefight situation, it's ammo dissappears in a heat beat unless you are unbelievely carful with shots and grab thermal clips the moment you find them. The whole issue I was seeking to aviod was the annoying fetch quest where after (or during) a fight you need to chase down clips or suffer for it. The moment I discovered I didn't need to reload in ME1 was glorious because it meant I could use weapons freely without saving them for the rainy day that never came.

Scarecrow_ES wrote...

I do still have a
concern with this "steam" vented overboard. From a reaslistic
perspective, this creates a serious safety issue. The first, of course,
is that you're venting a material that is likely hundreds of degrees to
the atmosphere around you. While this presents the opportunity for some
wonderful partical and heat distortion effects, in reality you're
likely to suffer immediate burns and the whole flesh melting off thing.
My second concern is what the coolant actually is.

All basic
coolants we use in the real world are extremely harmful to living
beings. I imagine any coolant used in a ME weapon would have to have a
super capacity for heat absorbtion beyond what we know now. And you're
basically releaseing a superheated cloud of this stuff right in front
of your face where you can breath it in. If the instant lung melting
doesn't kill you, the deadly poison gas will. If we can create a
plausible scientific reason why you shouldn't die instantly when
venting, there might be enough reason to suspend disbelief.

Ahh the steam, you have seen the geth pulse rifles rload in action right?
Shep slaps the side, heat sink pops out and ther's a big blast of a steam like gas the comes from the side. Shepard never had a problem with that.

But if you want a different explanation, the weapon may collect water vapour from the air, store it in a tank, and upon activation blasts the water though the heatsink to cool it down, any unsteamed water dribbles out the side in a cool animation. Hey there's the limitation! Limitation being waiting for your gun to absorb more water out of the air before BVS is avalible. Could add a whole new dimention to fighting in different enviorments like deserts and so one.

If the idea of the steam doesn't appeal to you there could just as easily be heat waves that come from the side and the whir fans or somthing to that effect.

[Scarecrow_ES]

Gauntz... I have read the same suggestion about breaking up power attributes into seperate trees before as well. To tell you the truth, I hadn't given it much throught before now, but having you mention it again is inspiring. I think this would be an excellent way to bring back a lot of the choice in skill building that more closely ties in with RPG basics, without having to get too ridiculous. I'd like the idea of being able to allocate points to different attributes of a power (like range of effect, duration, damage, force of impact, whatever) as it would allow me to tailor an individual power for how I intend to use it. In this way, Incinerate could either be made to be the most devastating possible attack against a single target, or could serve as a way to crowd control a whole room of baddies, or anywhere in between. This gives great variation to not only how powerful a skill is, but also in how it can be used. It makes traditional evolution unneccessary, allows classes to play much differently even with a limited set of powers, and helps pave the way to my truly evolved power system.



I would imagine for balance sake you'd only be allowed to devote a predetermined number of skill points into upgrading each skill tree before you're locked out from adding any more, to ensure that differentiation and make sure each power doesn't become UBER... and then I suppose that once you max out a power, that could unlock the evolved form like I've suggested. I think that works perfectly. In fact, I highly recommend this line. I might consider adding this change to my original proposal if there is enough support for it.

[Scarecrow_ES]

Like I said, Dual, if we can come up with a plausible reason why Shep wouldn't be boiled alive or instantly poisoned, I'm all for it. The ME universe side-steps basic scientific truth all over the place, so I'm sure something reasonable could be come up with to make this work. It doesn't have to be iron-clad scientific gold here, just plausible enough so that someone doesn't go "uh, shouldn't he be dead right now or his arm flesh falling off." It's a minor hangup really that a little codex entry can solve.

[Scarecrow_ES]

Master Smurf... recoil is an issue in current weapon technology that likely doesn't exist in ME weaponry because of the mass effect field. The whole idea that we can literally change the mass of a particle that we're trying to accelerate fundementally negates Newton's laws of motion. If the object to e accelerated has not real mass, then there can be no equal but opposite reaction, therefore no recoil.



In reality, single shot ME weapons should only be limited in accuracy by the skill and capabilities of the shooter and the type of sighting used. Automatic weapons will be limited in accuracy merely because the internal components would have to be built with looser tolerances to accomodate an automatic action from seizing under high heat conditions, thus each shot fired has a certain potential for going off course as defined by those looser tolerances. Hence why automatic weapons like the AR or SMG would have a tendancy to spray wildly as compared to single shot or even burst weapons.



Now, just because the weapon itself is accurate and has little recoil doesn't mean that it can't have a degree of wobbliness to it. I mean, the biggest limiting factor in firearm accuracy is the shooter. You put a precision weapon in a test stand and fire it over and over, it's likely you're going to hit the same spot every time. Put the same gun in the hands of a shooter standing upright, and your chances of high precision just went away. So there's something to be said for a heavier pistol being harder to aim by virtual of it's unwieldiness alone.

[Dualfinger]

He does wear armour which could easily take the steams heat. If I can stick my mitten clad hand out over a blast of steam now with no ill effects, it stands to reason Shepards armour could cope with the heat. Besides his suit has been in enviroments much more hostile, especialy in ME1.

[Dualfinger]

Besides, he could aways angle his weapon away from him. I can see an achievement in blasting an enemy in the face with the steam from a heat dump and making them reel back in pain.

[Scarecrow_ES]

Well, in reality though, Dual, the average person never really comes into contact with steam. Like when you're boiling water at home, you're not seeing steam over the pot, you're seeing water vapor. Steam only exists for a brief moment and is gone - just from that moment when water at the bottom of the pot is heated past 212 degrees F (100degrees C) to the point where it hits the air. And water is only ever likely to get to that 212 degrees unless the steam itself is heated further in a controlled environment.



Whatever type of coolant the TC would use would have to handle a far higher amount of heat than water... steel gun barrels will heat to the glowing point within 100-200 rounds fired, at which point the barrel can explode from the force of the gunpowder. It's hot enough to almost start melting the metal... plastic doesn't stand a chance, nor do electronics. So the heat sink has to keep temperatures contained below water's boiling point (otherwise it will produce steam in the atmosphere, and electronics are mostly useless above 150 degrees).



Chances are, the coolant could reasonably be heated well above water's boiling point in a pressurized containment situation... when it hits the atmosphere it could be well over 600 degrees. Hotter than any conventional oven can go. Your oven mitt won't save you then



That's not to say Shepard's suit won't help HIM though. Like I said, as long as the lore says he's alright, I'm completely with it.

[Scarecrow_ES]

The issue of where to start you characters off in an adventure is a difficult one in an RPG. It makes sense for Shepard to start back at 0 with no skills because BioWare used the time-tested do-over mechanic. Unfortunately, it doesn't make much sense for other characters... like Samara or Jack, whose biotic powers already are more powerful than Shep can ever attain, or Mordin who is a trained tech expert and commando.



Now, the do-over scenario works pretty well if you can pull it off. At the beginning of virtually Every Metroid game, there is a "legitimate" reason why you find yourself without all the gadgets you'd normally have. Unfortunately, this only works in moderation, which is why in Metroid Prime 3, you actually start off with a fairly high set of skills from which you can build. This is the approach that should be used for ME characters.



Samara, or Jack, for instance, could become part of your squad as master biotics. They already have their biotic specific skills at a fairly high level... perhaps unlike Shep, who has to put skill points into his class skill tree, theirs already starts out largely full. BUT, their other skill trees... weapons proficiency or alternate powers, start out low or non existant. Samara might be able to USE weapons as a Justicar, but certainly she's no weapons expert, while Shepard's job largely centers around using weapons, so there'd be no reason for him to train to use them. The same could be said of Jack... great at biotics, novice at most other things. So each of your squad members could come standard with some things they do well, and some things they don't. It would be your job to either improve the areas where your squatmates are weak, or accentuate where they're strong, thus bringing them to a level of proficiency that Shep can't even attain. And of course it makes sense that your Sentinel Shep couldn't be as powerful a biotic as Jack or an Adept Shep.



The devs could institute a system where in addition to class-specific skill trees (with their different relative starting points), each class (and thus each different squadmate) could come with a series of passive bonuses unique to that character. Legion and Thane could both receive passive bonuses that take effect when using sniper rifles. Legion could get additional damage bonuses to shields and against synthetic targets because he knows the relative weaknesses of those technologies. Miranda might get a passive bonus that effects the whole squad... maybe a bonus that improves the effect of combined power attacks... like a sort of a leadership bonus. Samara might give a boost to the squad's biotic abilities. Mordin could automatically lower the effectiveness of enemy tech power or defenses while bolstering the squad tech power and defenses (buff/debuff). In this way as well we're accounting for the unique talents and abilities that different squatmates bring to the table independant from their upgrade trees, and give them a more plausible position from which to grow as a character.

[TafkanX]

Actually this BVS sounds pretty cool. I'm not completely satisfied with the combat hardsuit handwave though, as it would do no good unless you're wearing the full helmet as well. This does little to explain how your squadmates don't fry themselves though, as many of them are not even clad for combat, let alone extreme and hazardous environments (I'm looking at you, Miranda and Jack, but this really applies to each and every other squadmate). Put everybody back in hardsuits again (like they should anyway) and that problem is mostly solved. Without forcing a full sealed helmet at all times when combat will/could occur, I'm not sure how to explain how your face/lungs don't vaporize. Perhaps the vents are purposefully angled to ensure that venting is done away from the user (preferably upward and forward, so you don't torch your foxhole-buddy) and explain that nontoxic coolants were specifically used. I dunno.

*Editted to add: An interesting mission could place you in a tight quarters situation (air ducts, very narrow coridoors/tunnels, etc.) where you could not safely fire your weapon for this reason and have to defend yourself some other way or simple enage in a bit of E&E.  I don't know, it was just an idea that flashed through my head.  Carry on 

Modifié par TafkanX, 31 mars 2010 - 02:34 .

[EternalWolfe]

Scarecrow_ES wrote...

Like I said, Dual, if we can come up with a plausible reason why Shep wouldn't be boiled alive or instantly poisoned, I'm all for it. The ME universe side-steps basic scientific truth all over the place, so I'm sure something reasonable could be come up with to make this work. It doesn't have to be iron-clad scientific gold here, just plausible enough so that someone doesn't go "uh, shouldn't he be dead right now or his arm flesh falling off." It's a minor hangup really that a little codex entry can solve.

Well, while I don't have anything specific for the heat, I'm fairly sure that if we can engineer medi-gel, creating a coolant that is non-poisonous in vapor form would be in the realm of possiblity.

[EternalWolfe]

Dualfinger wrote...

I guess you could limit the number of times but that brings us back to the main problem with the clip system. For instance, I never touched the Hand Cannon because in a firefight situation, it's ammo dissappears in a heat beat unless you are unbelievely carful with shots and grab thermal clips the moment you find them. The whole issue I was seeking to aviod was the annoying fetch quest where after (or during) a fight you need to chase down clips or suffer for it. The moment I discovered I didn't need to reload in ME1 was glorious because it meant I could use weapons freely without saving them for the rainy day that never came.

Wouldn't need to be - the system could play more like medi-gel, or heavy ammo.  You find more in boxes/whatever, rather then searching battlefields hoping they dropped some clips, and you can carry a limited number(can't say how much since that's a balance question).  And the way the system works, you'd only use the coolant/clip if you overheated your gun - as long as you didn't constantly overheat your gun in combat(say, by firing randomly and constantly, without ever letting up), you wouldn't even have to worry about it.

Another note: For this kind of system(and this includes medi-gel and heavy ammo), I think it'd be nice if we could get more of this stuff on the ship.  We can fabricate weapons, but I have look all over for extra medi-gel?  Even if its at cost to resupply what we take.

[Dualfinger]

Scarecrow_ES wrote...

Well, in reality though, Dual, the average person never really comes into contact with steam. Like when you're boiling water at home, you're not seeing steam over the pot, you're seeing water vapor. Steam only exists for a brief moment and is gone - just from that moment when water at the bottom of the pot is heated past 212 degrees F (100degrees C) to the point where it hits the air. And water is only ever likely to get to that 212 degrees unless the steam itself is heated further in a controlled environment.

Whatever type of coolant the TC would use would have to handle a far higher amount of heat than water... steel gun barrels will heat to the glowing point within 100-200 rounds fired, at which point the barrel can explode from the force of the gunpowder. It's hot enough to almost start melting the metal... plastic doesn't stand a chance, nor do electronics. So the heat sink has to keep temperatures contained below water's boiling point (otherwise it will produce steam in the atmosphere, and electronics are mostly useless above 150 degrees).

Chances are, the coolant could reasonably be heated well above water's boiling point in a pressurized containment situation... when it hits the atmosphere it could be well over 600 degrees. Hotter than any conventional oven can go. Your oven mitt won't save you then

That's not to say Shepard's suit won't help HIM though. Like I said, as long as the lore says he's alright, I'm completely with it.

Geez, steam, water vapour, you know what I meant. Your not making my job of explaining this easy are you? Remeber how in ME1 you were using a weapon that was effectivly the same as in ME2 but with cooldown features? It didn't take that long to cool down did it? Assuming it was air cooled, the heat would not have been that tremendous so I think the water could handle it.

Also consider if heat was collected in several different heatsinks and not just one. By dividing the heat load you can safely pull off the BVS. By blowing water though the several cooler heat sinks, you can produce a cloud of steam that is cooler (and safer) than on blown though a single super heated heatsink.

Also suppose the water gathered from the air was pushed through the heatsinks really fast, thus because it's been flushed so quickly, when spat out the other side it disperses. Sort of like if you blow a pile of dust, it hangs in the air as a big plume, whereas if you shot the dust out of a cannon it gets thrown everywhere in a light scattering. This would jettision the hazard beyond the area where it can affect the gun or user. So with a fast blow out, over long distances with multiple cooler heat sinks, the BVS could be a very practical and explainable game mechanice.

Before you say that if someone angled the weapon wrong that they would get their face blown open by the blast consider this. The BVS doesn't nessasrily have to happen instantly, when the side opens a small trickle of steam can come out first, build up in intensity and then die down.

Ok, you can start to pick holes in the argument now.

[Scarecrow_ES]

I had already suggested being able to pick up heavy weapon ammo at a station on the ship like we could with medi-gel in the last game... it stands to reason that you'd be able to do the same with any other consumable materials you'd use in battle, such as thermal clips or coolant.



Dealing with the overwhelming heat and poisonous nature of the coolant system is easy enough as long as we come up with a decent enough reason why it doesn't cause harm. Hell, you really wouldn't have to come up with a good reason at all if you didn't feel like it as clearly not EVERYTHING has to be explained to the player, but given that BioWare has been good about explaining the science behind their gameplay choices in the past, I'd almost think it was an obligation to do so in this case. I'm not totally sold on the nomenclature of "blast-vent system" persay... there's likely a better scientific name for it... but it's not bad by any means.



The first issue I come up with is WHY the Mass Effect universe would switch to this technology. I figure in ME1 we had a good system of atmospheric heat sinks that disappated heat without needing anything extra. But this tech didn't work in zero atmoshpere, and was inconsistant in varying atmospheres, so we went to a self-contained heat absorbsion system - thermal clips. Now we can use the weapon in zero atmosphere environments, and the weapons work consistantly in any environment. Plus, they have a tremendous capacity for isolating heat. So why would we want to switch to something else... what's the scientific reason?



Well I have a few. One, the heat absorbsion capability of the thermal clip is not consistant with the ammo capacity of the weapon. The efficiency of thermal clips is not sufficient enough to keep up with the needs of prolonged firefights. They have to be dumped after only a few rounds, and do not have the longevity of the older heat-sink system. Two, they're bulky. The clips themselves are large and fairly complicated for throw-away devices. It's expensive and wasteful, and increases the size and weight of the weapon.



So, what about the new cryo-coolant system (BVS)? Let's say the system uses a material with tremendous heat absorbsion capabilities, but the system can also slowly disappate heat directly overboard as long as it is in an atmosphere that allows for it. So that's a bonus over the old system. Now, as long as you don't burn through the coolant, you can keep firing until your ammo or power cells run out. Also, since the super-cooled and field-isolated material has super high absorbancy, the actual amount of material required in the sink is much smaller than the full thermal clip.



It also does not require an exchange of an entire cell when the coolant needs to be swapped - only the coolant itself needs to be exchanged - so in reality, not only would the system be more compact than the thermal clip system, being less expensive anc complicated, but it would also reduce the size and weight of this system in the weapon. Also, additional coolant for weapons could be stored in a central resevoir of some sort, which eliminates the need to carry a large store of thermal clips.



Ok... so what's the downside? Well, let's say the material is somewhat volitile. Yes, a small amount of coolant can absorb a lot of heat. But absorb too much heat too fast, and it presents a real danger to the weapon and person holding it. The material would need to be contained in some sort of field chamber (laser induced as Wolfe suggested is fine). If it gets too hot, there is a chance of breaking containment or overwhelming the system. I see two possible scenarios. Either the coolant is automatically ejected from the weapon when it overheats, or it requires manual ejection. In either case, the weapon will lock out the ability to fire without first putting in fresh coolant.



Now, let's say the weapon requires you to manually eject the coolant. In all likelihood this means the coolant is stable but no longer useable if it overheats. Many materials alter their basic chemical structure when exposed to high levels of heat. Perhaps the coolant we use in the BVS does this as well in a way that makes it dangerous if we continue to expose it to high heat. It'd be safe to keep in the gun, and will still disappate heat to atmosphere, but it's now completely useless for further heat absorbsion, and so you can eject it at your will.



OR...



The weapon automatically ejects the coolant in an overheat situation. Exposing the coolant to too much heat too quickly overwhelms the restraining field's ability to contain the coolant. Perhaps the coolant begins to rapidly convert from liquid to gas and produces an overpressure situation. If not immediately vented overboard under controlled bleed, the overheat condition could produce a cascading effect in the coolant and it could explode violently, destroying the weapon and probably killing the user. So you're firing the weapon, you get the warning that you're approaching overheat, you hit the overheat mark and WHOOSH!



The weapon will still slowly disappate heat to atmosphere with the coolant gone, but you will have to manually reload the coolant from the resevoir to make the weapon work again.



I think this definitely sounds like a more advanced system than the one we're using now, and at least this gives a plausible reason why we'd switch to it.

[Upset Goldfish]

My only current issue with the cover system is that when used in tandem with the power wheel, Shepard sometimes has a tendency to pull himself out of cover. Some biotic powers need to be directed towards enemies, this I understand, but playing on Insanity whilst behind cover, I don't expect Shepard to stand up out of cover to equip Geth Shield Boost.



Perhaps this is just me, but that is my only issue with the cover system.



Alot of people have also suggested a cover fire system, the ability to fire without looking (much like Gears of War), however this would not be feasible if the current ammunition system were to be carried across. It would work, however, with your suggested hybrid ammunition system. However, in my humble opinion, this cover fire system would detract from the game. It would be far too easy to just sit at the back behind a wall hitting enemies without taking damage.



If said cover fire system were to be implemented, the only way gameplay could be balanced to counter that sort of playstyle would be if the current ammunition system were carried over.



I'd just like some opinions on that, I've heard the "cover fire" argument a couple of times before and that is my issue with it. Any of your opinions would be great.