903 réponses à ce sujet

[leeboi2]

I was completely crushed by that wall of text.

[Scarecrow_ES]

Yep. There's a lot there to read, but far more worth your time than any similar topic you're likely to encounter.

[FireCabbage]

I've been following this thread for a while, and I'd just like to say how nice it is to see an intelligent and sensible person talking about these things, rather than ranting about the Mako and the elevators.

[khevan]

I am not about to read through all of the pages in this topic to see if my suggestions have already been put forth, but I have a couple of comments on the original topic.

First, while I think that the evolved powers being a "hold to use" system would work well on the console version of the game, I feel it would be hard to implement on the PC. I have a hard enough time hitting the right hotkey for various powers in real time, much less trying to hold a hotkey down with one finger while trying to move using the ASDW buttons. I prefer the ME2 system of evolved powers being a choice between two different versions. I just would like to see a wider difference between the two.

Secondly, while the skill system you describe, being able to choose between skills, is an attractive idea, I would suggest a slight modification. Instead of being able to simply choose from a list of class-available skills, I propose that skills be able to be swapped one-for-one, and limit the number of skills swaps per playthru.  For example, first playthru can either have only one skill swap, or none, forcing the player to play the class as the developers intended, and only on subsequent playthrus be able to choose up to, but no more than, two skills to swap.  In the case of the Sentinel, Tech skills can only be replaced by other Tech powers, and the same for biotics.

Just my $0.02. 

edit:  hit the submit button by accident, had to finish the post.

Modifié par khevan, 08 mai 2010 - 06:10 .

[PantokratorII]

first to OP great work!  I think your ideas are great especially those concerning the skillsystem.


What if squadmates had a special ability that wasnt combat related? I have often wondered why the heck Shepard was fooling around hacking or bypassing objects with Kasumi/Tali/Legion in the squad, I thought a good teamleader knew how to delegate to specialists? What if any of the abovementioned did the hacking for you? it might relieve the tedium of your 50th hacking.
Grunt might give a bonus to intimidation " I'm not going hurt you, HE is going to hurt you".
Mordin the capacity to carry more/better medigel.
Garrus might be able to shut the turian councilmember up

and Jacob obviously makes it easier to capture other ships - taking a "priiize" if you will.
(Sorry,sorry,sorry could not stop myself)

PS I think some EVA-combat (maybe even ad thrusters to the suit) on the outside of ships or asteroids couldt be interesting if Newtons third law (action-reaction) where fully implemented - recoil would be difficult to handle.

PPS Kill the shotgun off, honestly very few soldiers go to war with a shotgun (other than for opening doors in close-quarters-fighting) assault rifles are commonly used because they are the swiss army knife of guns. They even come in a smaller size - the carbine. Not to mention that anybody heading into combat armed solely with a shotgun (pistols arent great at long range either) would find himself at an immense disadvantage at anything but point-blank range - My point being that nobody even remotely sane would do it. Even the cook would bring a carbine/assault rifle.

Modifié par PantokratorII, 08 mai 2010 - 02:05 .

[Scarecrow_ES]

Thanks everyone for posting... I love getting new people into the discussion, so you're all very welcome!



Khevan... you aren't the first PC user to suggest that a "hold to charge" system might not be ideal for a keyboard setup, and I can certainly see this as an issue. My solution would be to have both the hold to charge option, as well as a power-wheel selection method for the heavier power. Selecting the heavier power in the wheel would still require the character to go through the process of charging the power (a brief few seconds), during which time the character would still be as vulnerable as hhe might be during the hold scenario. Console users could make the same choice as well if holding to charge wasn't their thing.



As far as the skill selection... my intent is, of course, to allow players to tailor a character to their unique preferences, but keep it true to the class they've selected. As such, as you said, tech powers could only be swapped for other tech powers. Within that realm, though, under the current system, players have very few powers that are not either class specific or ammo powers. Each class might have only one or two powers which might be classified as typically tech or biotic which have counterparts that can be swapped for. As such, there is no real need to limit one power swap here or two there, as the game already places a tangible limit we can use.



Worm... I don't envision the planet scan process taking any more time under my system than it does now. For instance, the actual process of scanning the surface of the planet will be far quicker, and thus play a much smaller part of the total experience. The idea here is to make the best of a bad idea by breaking up the tedium. It's not a great solution, I admit, but it's functional, and would work great if ME3 continues to use the resource system.



Pantokrator... The unique squad skill thing was a hallmark of the ME1 skill system that is missing in ME2. In ME1, it was entirely possible for the player character to be god aweful at hacking safes, doors, computers, whatever... but bring along a squadmate who was great at those things. At essense, it wasn't YOU hacking the safe, because you didn't have the skill... it was Tali, because she did.



Those sorts of passive skills were entirely removed from ME2 in the streamlining process. I would, in a way, like to see them returned in some form, though not in as grandious a way as in the last game. Perhaps somewhere in between.



We've actually discussed some EVA stuff before, but mostly for the sake of environmental impact on weapon effectiveness (as in, you can't vent weapon heat in space). I agree that some of this would add welcome variety to missions.



Don't discount the shotgun though. While I personally have no use for them in games, they are making a tremendous come-back in modern combat. Shotgun development has lagged behind most other weapons in terms of combat effectiveness until recent years when the military started to take a hard look at them again. The traditional "buckshot" or slug loads have given way to truely innovative shell types, and the shotgun has become one of the most versitile weapons on the battlefield.



Beyond simple multi-shot shells like buck and bird shot, and the standard heavy slug, we're seeing sabot cartridges (small fin-stabilized penetrator with big bang power behind it), non-lethal bags and sting balls, ballistic powders for lock smashing, and even explosive rounds. Beyond that, the shotguns themselves are being given the whole tactical treatment, with newer operating systems, magazine feed, pistol grips, rail systems... the works.



I fully expect that some day, a hybrid "shotgun" attachment will be standard issue to troops to take the place of individual shotguns and grenade launchers. It'll be a sort of universal shell system that can fire just about any kind of shell a soldier might need.



So yeah, don't count the shotgun out just yet.

[yuncas]

And an obligatory bump.

[Scarecrow_ES]

Thanks again

[Conman013]

I would like to see the squad specific tactics come back again as PantokratorII had mentioned. Renegade options could become a lot more fun if you throw in Grunt or whoever into the mix. As far as the hacking, I personally liked the way they redid the button pressing for a few minigames, but maybe have it like in DA where the squad member will go over to the terminal or whatever, then bring up the minigame.



Just a thought.

[Spectre921]

PantokratorII wrote...

first to OP great work!  I think your ideas are great especially those concerning the skillsystem.


What if squadmates had a special ability that wasnt combat related? I have often wondered why the heck Shepard was fooling around hacking or bypassing objects with Kasumi/Tali/Legion in the squad, I thought a good teamleader knew how to delegate to specialists? What if any of the abovementioned did the hacking for you? it might relieve the tedium of your 50th hacking.
Grunt might give a bonus to intimidation " I'm not going hurt you, HE is going to hurt you".
Mordin the capacity to carry more/better medigel.
Garrus might be able to shut the turian councilmember up

and Jacob obviously makes it easier to capture other ships - taking a "priiize" if you will.
(Sorry,sorry,sorry could not stop myself)

PS I think some EVA-combat (maybe even ad thrusters to the suit) on the outside of ships or asteroids couldt be interesting if Newtons third law (action-reaction) where fully implemented - recoil would be difficult to handle.

PPS Kill the shotgun off, honestly very few soldiers go to war with a shotgun (other than for opening doors in close-quarters-fighting) assault rifles are commonly used because they are the swiss army knife of guns. They even come in a smaller size - the carbine. Not to mention that anybody heading into combat armed solely with a shotgun (pistols arent great at long range either) would find himself at an immense disadvantage at anything but point-blank range - My point being that nobody even remotely sane would do it. Even the cook would bring a carbine/assault rifle.

Im right up there with u up until the shotgun thing u said. U seem to forget that Shepard is not an ordinary soldier. What u say applies to regular frontline soldiers. Shep is a Spectre. He can bring whatever he wants into battle. And the problem u have, Bioware fixes with the bonus weapon u get later in the game, which they will most likely do the same in ME3. And besides its a game, cant have everything in a game, especially an RPG. I personally think the shotgun is the most helpful gun in the game, helps deal with those annoying krogan slowly creeping their way into your face.

[Scarecrow_ES]

bump-a-roni

[Scarecrow_ES]

and again, wow

[yuncas]

I don't know what else can be said about all this. I think I'm gonna wait for the new dlc and see if I have any reason to complain about that. Probably will. I heard there's going to be more hammerhead stuff in it. What kind of sub par quality treat that will be remains to be seen

[RyuGuitarFreak]

Conman013 wrote...

I would like to see the squad specific tactics come back again as PantokratorII had mentioned. Renegade options could become a lot more fun if you throw in Grunt or whoever into the mix. As far as the hacking, I personally liked the way they redid the button pressing for a few minigames, but maybe have it like in DA where the squad member will go over to the terminal or whatever, then bring up the minigame.

Just a thought.

Yes. I'd like squad specific commands. I don't know if it could be good, necessary or useful in a game like ME that the squad just basically shoots and use skills, but we could have in the squad menu something regarding tactics or behaviour. In Kingdom Hearts, FFXII, DAO and other RPGs we can customize the party's actions. ME could use something like this.

In ME1 we had attack, defend or rally. We could have some more customizable commands. Well the 360 controller is a limitation, that's what was change on ME2, but we never know.

It would be cool if the squadmates had some kind of skill or commands for this. Examples: Grunt: Berserker - Grunt will forget about his defenses and rush with shotgun. If it's something like a skll, it could give Grunt some bonus to his attacks and lower his defenses. Garrus or Thane: Marksman - Their precision with the sniper rifle becomes perfect for a while and all their shots will go straight to their head. It would be a character only skill like Kasumi's Shadow Strike, something really unique to them. Miranda: Defense breaker - Miranda will focus on breaking the enemies's armor, shields or barriers, skill bonus: overload and warp deals 25% more damage to shields, armor or barriers.

Well, I think my ideas sound like random now xD, but everything I wrote is up for discussions anyway.

[OneDrunkMonk]

Again I feel BioWare needs to move away from classic RPG elements as they rarely (or no longer) make sense. I don't expect to have to rebuild Shepard or his team by the third game, I already did that. Nor do I expect to have to upgrade weapons and armor to level XXXIII or whatever. That's already been accomplished. Shepard doesn't need more guns, resource hunting, or a wack of credit chips to go buy stuff, it's unnecessary. BioWare can expand on character interactions and implement better squad commands so you can keep everyone alive, that would be good. Tactical gameplay would be sweet instead of just running around shooting stuff at random.



Oh yeah and do away with the Biotic nerf as totally doesn't make sense.

[Scarecrow_ES]

Monk.. I can agree with you to some extent, but you have to understand that even though this is a series, each game is essentially it's own thing. Not everyone will play ME1 and ME2 before diving into ME3, just as many people who were never interested in ME1 picked up ME2 because of the accessibility BioWare added to the second game. It might be alright to allow veteran players with saves from previous games to forgo a lot of the character development we see at the beginning of an RPG, much in the same way ME2 streamlined the process for veteran players... but clearly a character building game section must exist for those players who are either new to the series, or who simply want to create a new character from scratch.



Even non-RPG game series that feature character progression over the course of the game have the same "starting over every time" problem. Samas Aran, of Metroid fame, ends up losing all her weapons and equipment at the beginning of every game, if for no other reason than to give players something to build on. If every game you played, your character started out already as powerful as he'll ever be, then much of the incentive to play is gone. It's not a terribly clever game mechanic, but it's so fundemental to game design that I doubt we'll ever see it go away. Besides, I think the overwhelming people who support the RPG genre do so because of the inherit character development stuff that comes off as largely unneccessary in so many other ways.



Ryu... While I might like to see a more robust passive command system put in place for squad members, I'm not sure we'll ever see it. For whatever reason, BioWare has placed a lot of emphasis on direct squad control, and many of the game's combat features are built around this notion. You practically have to babysit your squadmates because BioWare WANTS you to interact with them. If you could just set up a passive command system, or your buddies were just smarter, then you'd never want or need to interact with them in combat.



I, however, don't want to handhold my squadmates. I want them to act like the elite warriors they are, within basic parameters I set. For Fallout 3, many players complained that followers were too stupid and were often detrimental to have around because they would simply rush off and attack whatever they saw. Your follower would often run off by himself and later you'd see a notation on your screen that he had died, apparently in combat with some unknown enemy likely much more powerful than he. Stealth tactics were largely impossible. The upcoming Fallout game will have the more robust passive command system we're asking for here, where you can determine how aggressive you want your follower to be, what tactics you want him to use, whether he charges or flanks, etc etc. I don't see why such a simple menu-based sysstem couldn't be implimented in ME3, given that a squad screen already exists.

[CroGamer002]

I just hope Bioware read all of this and reconsider it.

[RyuGuitarFreak]

Scarecrow_ES wrote...
Ryu... While I might like to see a more robust passive command system put in place for squad members, I'm not sure we'll ever see it. For whatever reason, BioWare has placed a lot of emphasis on direct squad control, and many of the game's combat features are built around this notion. You practically have to babysit your squadmates because BioWare WANTS you to interact with them. If you could just set up a passive command system, or your buddies were just smarter, then you'd never want or need to interact with them in combat.

I, however, don't want to handhold my squadmates. I want them to act like the elite warriors they are, within basic parameters I set. For Fallout 3, many players complained that followers were too stupid and were often detrimental to have around because they would simply rush off and attack whatever they saw. Your follower would often run off by himself and later you'd see a notation on your screen that he had died, apparently in combat with some unknown enemy likely much more powerful than he. Stealth tactics were largely impossible. The upcoming Fallout game will have the more robust passive command system we're asking for here, where you can determine how aggressive you want your follower to be, what tactics you want him to use, whether he charges or flanks, etc etc. I don't see why such a simple menu-based sysstem couldn't be implimented in ME3, given that a squad screen already exists.

Yeah, I kinda agree with you. They have put a lot of emphasis on direct control because of the cover based combat system. Well, I don't know about you, but I rarely used squad commands for anything more than skills, at least on normal difficulty. Hardcore/Insanity I used much more but not that often either.

As I said, we could have something on the menu for their behavior. but it could get things too unnecessarily complicated, or they wouldn't matter anyway based on their actions are just shoot, move and use skills. Maybe things are just better the way they are. We can already move them, set their behavior to shoot on specific target and their skills are on our control.

Maybe the "behavior skill" I mentioned could work better.

I had another idea. Imagine if we could have something like FFXIII paradigm shift? Where we change their stats and behavior real time in battle. We could have the default setting "normal" and 2 another special ones that could work like the skills I said, they give some bonus and a drawback. Like Grunt's Berserk that makes him a better damage dealer, but he gets more damage. Garrus's/Thane's Marksman as a drawback could make their power recharge bigger. Miranda's defense breaker could add -30% weapon damage. Stuff like this. This could be easily put on the pause power menu.

Modifié par RyuGuitarFreak, 16 mai 2010 - 02:33 .

[Dualfinger]

To be honest, I found somtimes I'd need to tell a squad member somthing 3-5 time before they did it. A more resposive squad would be better methinks

[OneDrunkMonk]

Scarecrow_ES wrote...

Monk.. I can agree with you to some extent, but you have to understand that even though this is a series, each game is essentially it's own thing. Not everyone will play ME1 and ME2 before diving into ME3, just as many people who were never interested in ME1 picked up ME2 because of the accessibility BioWare added to the second game. It might be alright to allow veteran players with saves from previous games to forgo a lot of the character development we see at the beginning of an RPG, much in the same way ME2 streamlined the process for veteran players... but clearly a character building game section must exist for those players who are either new to the series, or who simply want to create a new character from scratch.

Even non-RPG game series that feature character progression over the course of the game have the same "starting over every time" problem. Samas Aran, of Metroid fame, ends up losing all her weapons and equipment at the beginning of every game, if for no other reason than to give players something to build on. If every game you played, your character started out already as powerful as he'll ever be, then much of the incentive to play is gone. It's not a terribly clever game mechanic, but it's so fundemental to game design that I doubt we'll ever see it go away. Besides, I think the overwhelming people who support the RPG genre do so because of the inherit character development stuff that comes off as largely unneccessary in so many other ways.

Ryu... While I might like to see a more robust passive command system put in place for squad members, I'm not sure we'll ever see it. For whatever reason, BioWare has placed a lot of emphasis on direct squad control, and many of the game's combat features are built around this notion. You practically have to babysit your squadmates because BioWare WANTS you to interact with them. If you could just set up a passive command system, or your buddies were just smarter, then you'd never want or need to interact with them in combat.

I, however, don't want to handhold my squadmates. I want them to act like the elite warriors they are, within basic parameters I set. For Fallout 3, many players complained that followers were too stupid and were often detrimental to have around because they would simply rush off and attack whatever they saw. Your follower would often run off by himself and later you'd see a notation on your screen that he had died, apparently in combat with some unknown enemy likely much more powerful than he. Stealth tactics were largely impossible. The upcoming Fallout game will have the more robust passive command system we're asking for here, where you can determine how aggressive you want your follower to be, what tactics you want him to use, whether he charges or flanks, etc etc. I don't see why such a simple menu-based sysstem couldn't be implimented in ME3, given that a squad screen already exists.

Honestly it seems rather silly, by the third installment of a trilogy, to cater to those who are only just playing a Mass Effect game for the first time. By making ME3 friendly to first time players BioWare is basically invalidating progress made for those who have played at the very least ME2. The whole Lazarus Project was barely believable in ME2 but we all gave it a "Umm...OK" and continued onward. So we got to reinvent (or invent for the first time) Shepard, making the game n00b friendly. Leveling up your squad however made no sense, weren't they already in top form? Why you had to go around looting when Cerberus was more than capable of funding you is a mystery. Having to reinvent Shepard again in ME3, rebuild team attributes, go looting followed by a shopping spree...It would just be ridiculous.

I think there is a lot of room to custom-utilize your squad. Tell one to take point, tell another to watch your back. Tell one to support another squad mate or to provide cover fire as you move position. Your squad personalities could come into play. How your squad reacts to each other, how to utilize their strengths and minimalize their weaknesses...Etc. A gambit system would be great so you don't always have to command the squad. Like when shields are at 20% take cover till fully restored. 

[Scarecrow_ES]

Like I said, Monk... I completely agree with you in theory. It does get kinda silly when you're three games into a series with the same character and he's always starting out at level zero, and you're supposed to be recruiting the baddest mothers in the known universe and yet they can barely hold their own against the weakest enemy types in the game when you first meet them. On the other hand, every developer on the planet with a series has to find a way to offer the same form of progression within every game in that series.



When said series features the same characters within the same timeline, it's darn near impossible to invent ways to start them out back at the lowest level in subsequent games. Shepard's death and resurrection was a cliched way of doing just that, but it's a trick BioWare can only use once. But you'll see other series, like Metroid as mentioned earlier, that don't even blink twice before pulling the whole "oh no, you lost all your stuff and have to spend the whole game getting it back" routine. The reality is... no matter how silly this type of thing is, it's 100% necessary. And that's really why you don't see these kinds of continuation games.

[Scarecrow_ES]

Ryu... it's not just the cover system... BioWare really got it in their heads that even with slightly improved AI (which is still no better than some of the worst squad AI out there) they still want you to fully interact with your squad - tell them where to go, what to shoot, what power to use, what enemy to target, etc. It's one of those touted gameplay features you usually see the marketing whizzes put on the box - "Now with enhanced squad combat interaction!!!"



Unfortunately, the only people who actually like micromanaging battles to this level play Real Time Strategy games. Most of us just want the AI to be smart enough to stay out of our way and not get killed... oh, and hopefully along the way kill some of the bad guys. In this regard, squadmate AI in Mass Effect is still dumb as a post. It doesn't have to be that way, but it is. Can it be fixed? Certainly.



A simple menu-based system would be easy enough. Go to your squadmate screen, select a squad member... choose his aggressivness level (how hard he fights the enemy, breaks from cover, uses powers, etc)... his holding distance from you (does he crowd you, or move to seperate cover)... his standoff distance (does he try to stay back from the enemy, or get up close)... his stance from the enemy (straight attack, flank, etc)... his basic tactics (attack, defend, debuff, suppress, support, etc), and his weapon types (biotics, weapons, tech, whatever).



Ultimately it might be possible then to set one squadmate (say Legion or Thane) to stay well back out of the action, away from you, stay in cover and pick shots, snipe, etc... while having another (say Grunt) go nuts wih the charging berserker routine... and still another flank the enemy at medium range and provide suppressing fire or biotic debuff. You wouldn't have to babysit your squadmates anymore, and they'd actually form a sort of tactical unit that doesn't require you to micromanage every little action to make a coordinated attack.

[Ackillez]

<bump>

[Scarecrow_ES]

Thank'ee