903 réponses à ce sujet

[MrGooberMan]

I agree with pretty much everything but the controllers part(haven't had a chance to play ME2 yet)...I like the controls from ME1 but I would like there to be a preset setting for those who want a different setup.



Also I would like to add one slightly minor thing. Being able to change the color of your biotchs/tech abilities. Just add to the customization a lil bit more.

[ReDSH1FT]

I just got through your entire post.



I must admit, I've been jaded by the morons on the forums blasting ME2, and expected your post to be something along the lines of EA SUX MAKE MOR RPG.



I was totally wrong, your proposals make sense, and don't take away from the beautiful improvements that ME2 made over ME1.



I especially applaud the power meter for powers. My biggest compliment for ME2 would be the opportunity cost involved with every aspect of the game, and your system doesn't take away from it.



Nice post, very well thought out.

[Scarecrow_ES]

Simon and Kazuya, your posts are kinda linked so I'll address them together. I don't envision a charge system that leaves the player completely exposed while charging. This can be done largely from cover. However, taking the time to charge means you can't fire back, manage your squad, or move from cover to cover effectively. In essense, regardless of whether or not you are exposed directly to enemy fire out of cover, you are very limited in what actions you can take while charging. If it takes 3 seconds to charge, it's enough to make you question whether to cast the basic power, or to take time and cast the evolved one.



Now, the rewards for casting evolved powers will be greater. You can cast Incineration Blast, sure, and send a fireball flying at your chosen enemy and do some damage (and take a smaller hit to your "mana" meter). OR you can charge up, send out a blast that will explode on impact and catch any enemy nearby on fire (and take all your "mana" away temporarily). Is there a small crowd of enemies ahead of you tightly packed and just waiting to be sent flying apart in a ball of flame? Then you're going to want the charged attack. It's going to be worth it for you to make that happen. This gives real weight to the evolution of your powers, and real tactical options to how you use them. Sure, I could send 2-3 basic blasts out, maybe kill a single enemy or do small damage to a few, OR I could send a big one out, damage the crowd, and disperse them. You have a choice. And of course this is just the basic "missile spell."



As far as individuals not letting their "mana" pool fully charge... well that's entirely in their right. You want them to be able to cast powers as often as they can, so if they only want to recharge enough to let that one cast out, basically making the system similar to the ME2 cooldown system, then they can do that. And surely every player that focuses on powers will have to do just that at some point. However, imagine all the destructive fury you can unleash if you let your meter fully charge! Combined power effects, devastating charged powers. There's real benefit to letting that meter fully charge, and the smart tactical players who use the full bar to good effect will be the ones who will be able to do the most damage later in the game... especially with charged powers. I think this will be incentive enough not to spam. But hey, if a guy just wants to cast, wait, cast, wait... he can do that too. Really, my system, AT WORST, is the same as the ME2 system, and at best is a whole new animal.

[yuncas]

I did have a nice big response that was well put together but in my clumsiness I deleted the whole damn thing. Way to go me. So here's my pitifully short response.

-definitely like the cooldown idea & the skill tree revamp. I almost always have extra points left with the block increments.

-weapon ammo/hybrid is a great idea. a big downer in ME2 for me was not being able to increase (most) weapon ammo capacity

-agree that armor pieces do need more of a signifigant value to be worthwhile. I would like to see a few more than 3 looks for a squadmate. I don't know how to put this. I do like the choice of ME1 for armor, but realize the system was a bit overdone. I like the control of deciding what the squad was equiped with. 
  I personally prefer an armor upgrade system, but something again that is not bloated with plenty of redundancies. armor upgrades could complement skills to further focus a class and supplement weaknesses of a given class, but only after working hard for them. after all isn't one of the points of the game to improve your kit?
 armor for me in ME2 was more than a few steps forward in the looks department, although some choices were a bit unrealistic. it seems like style took the lead over substance. who in their right mind goes into a firefight with high heels and a catsuit. who goes into a near vacuum with a oxygen mask and bare skin exposed. even though said apparel choices may be appealing to the eye I'd argue for more believable outfits.

-proposal for weapons was very nice. I have to say that the making of "uber" weapons should be approached, but as to not have them be terribly overpowered as to be favored over others completely. again, isn't a reward for the time put into the game being able to improve your kit?
  the heavy weapons ammo station is a VERY good idea. to say that their would be no logistical support for pieces of equipment that can turn the tide of a battle so quickly. it would have to be limited though as to not have a player wade through hordes of enemies with the BFG blazin away indefinitely.
  i've seen in other threads the idea of visual changes that go with certain upgrades. I like that idea. I refer to the ME1 upgrade system only to explain my desire for a more tangible upgrade system for weapons. In ME2 I never really knew what my weapons were capable of. maybe it's that i'd care more for a numerical value put to a weapon that i can see as opposed to one that just handles differently when firing.

well after reviewing this it doesn't seem that short. if you read it thanks and if you have your own ideas speak your mind.











Oh yeah! NEEDS MORE HELMET TOGGLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 
 

Modifié par yuncas, 13 février 2010 - 01:39 .

[rabbitchannel]

I dislike your proposal for cooldown. Mainly because I hate that type of meter style. ahaha. I'd rather have local cooldowns. Separate the cooldowns of biotic, combat, and tech. Once you use a biotic power, for example, you cannot use another biotic power until the cooldown is over. However, you are still free to use tech or combat powers.



With the meter style I can just imagine depleting it and waiting for it to regenerate every so slightly so I can throw one power. That annoying feeling of scraping the bottom of the barrel for a little grub.

[Scarecrow_ES]

We Tigers... I certainly don't want the game to be any easier, nor do I want classes to be less distinct. However, I don't want the difficulty of the game to be determined by how limiting the gameplay is. Much of the ease or difficulty of ME2's combat comes from how narrowly focused it is. Most firefights take place between your squad and a small number of enemies, at reasonably close range, with a few waist-high pieces of cover between. The limits placed on the ammo and powers systems restric what a player can do in combat. I certainly don't believe in removing all restrictions. That would make the game easy. But I do favor systems that allow the players options in dealing with a problem, which you can see is what I've proposed. Perhaps, when you think about it, giving the player greater freedom in terms of how to approach each firefight will actually lead to more interesting battles that could require different approaches that will really demonstrate why you need balanced squads and smart tactics.



As far as class differentiation, I certainly don't want players to be able to have complete freedom over every power they have. I want distinct classes. However, having NO choice in what powers to invest in is just silly. To keep using the Infiltrator as an example... in ME1, I could get Overload, Damping, AI Hack (with a bonus skill), and half a dozen other skills. I could gain access to all but a few tech abilities if I wanted them. Now, I don't want a player to be able to open up ALL tech skill trees, just choose perhaps which one I want to use. Perhaps I do find Overload more useful than AI Hack. Why can't I use Overload then, instead? It really doesn't remove any nuance to party selection, as none of your party members adheres to the specific archetypes anyway. When you think about it, it doesn't affect party selection at all, but does give you greater choice in how YOU want your character to play. Of course, I think with truly evolved powers, as I propose, even powers you aren't too fond of will be more appealing in their evolved forms.

[Empiro]

Regarding armor: I thought that ME2's system was perfect. The bonuses were there, but they weren't so large that it discouraged me from picking the pieces that I thought made my character look the way I wanted him or her to look. With your character appearing in so many cutscenes and conversations, looking the way I want was an important part of my experience, even on the hardest difficulty level.

More overall choices, of course, would be a plus in my book.

Modifié par Empiro, 13 février 2010 - 01:58 .

[Scarecrow_ES]

Rabbit... I can understand a dislike for the whole "mana" pool concept. In reality though, it's just about the only way to do exactly what the devs want you to be able to do - use your powers continually in combat. See, in ME1, each power had it's own long cooldown, and you could use any power in any order you wanted as long as it was ready. So here I could spam 5 powers back to back... once I did that though, I had to wait a LONG time before I could use those powers again, and while I waiting, I likely didn't have any powers I could use. ME2 gives you a short global cooldown. You can use a power, and it recharges while you wait for yourself to recharge too. You will never find yourself unable to use a power for very long, but you can only use one at a time. You can't lift an enemy into the air, and then throw them off a cliff. Neither system is ideal... You need a system that will let you use powers often, but will also give you great freedom in how you use them. My system does that. Introducing charged powers adds a whole other layer to power combat too.



Fans of the ME1 system hate the new one, and fans of the new one hate the ME1 system. Your system is a lot like the ME2 system, except that yours produces very unbalanced gameplay that give a significant benefit to players whose class uses biotics AND tech abilities. That class basically gets to use powers twice as often as anyone else. That won't work.



Like I said... at worst, if you are simply waiting for enough recharge time to cast a single basic power, then for YOU my system will seem no different than the current system.

[FataliTensei]

My suggestion



Get ME back to a mix between RPG and shooter, the last game played too much to shooter fans.



Make the powers more effective - i.e. I can manioulate dark matter and dark energy with my mind, but pulling out a gun in more effective...na...don't think so >_<

[yuncas]

Also in regards to armor I'd care for a real armor rating. If it was set at a base level to begin with and supplemented with upgrades to further improve it's toughness or give it other qualities like being able to resist different effects. I guess I just keep going back to my fondness for ME1's system, not of course for the over-abundance of individual upgrades, but for the variety of effects that could be achieved with their use.

[Scarecrow_ES]

Empiro.. your mentality regarding armor choices is EXACTLY why I think passive armor bonuses should be beefed up. With bonuses as low as they are in ME2, people like yourself, and even I am guilty of this, would rather choose a piece of armor that is visually appealing than one that grants a slightly useful buff in combat. That particular choice should never happen. The bonuses become so indistinct and worthless that you'd rather just go on looks alone. If your armor system is going to do that, then why bother having passive bonuses on armor in the first place, right?

[kalpain]

Scarecrow_ES wrote...

With regard to the hybrid heat system for weapons... the idea is to use the thermal clip swap as a "last resort." he player should be controlling his shots and "conserving ammo" wherever possible in the game. Having a limited supply of clips on hand should drive this point home. You don't want to go gung-ho and run out, as this will have real consequences for you. As long as you manage your heat properly though, you never will run out -but you might come close, especially in intense firefights that require you to burn through thermal clips. When you've got a dozen Husks baring down on you, and you can only get off maybe 30 rounds from your Assault Rifle before overheating... yeah, you're going to need to mash that trigger. And you're going to need to save those clips for that exact occasion. The rest of the time, you better be smart and make your shots count.

That's an approach I hadn't even thought of.  I would probably be happy if either of our ideas were  used in ME3.  When I started playing 2 I was baffled by the idea that my gun just wouldn't do anything with out a heat sink.  Even reading the codex left me scratching my head as to why anyone would go from an "infinite ammo" system to one that was again dependent on "ammo."  The reasoning behind the sinks makes sense just their implementation of it seems off.  As it stands now running out of heat sinks sucks.  It happened to my Sentinel a few times but fortunately I had cryo blast to fall back on.  I anticipate a whole new level of frustration if happens to my Vanguard.  Should probably build up that Shockwave everybody seems to dodge...

On a side not Full Cryo works great against swarming husks.  One blast freezes multiples if they are near by and they shatter themselves as they continue to try to swarm you.  One of my favorites...

[Scarecrow_ES]

FataliTensei... I think you'll like many of my suggestions. There's definitely more RPG in there than in ME2, without going the redundancy route from ME1. Powers are expanded and yes, more effective (more up to how you use them, but I digress). I wouldn't say ME2 caters to shooter fans. Improving what amounts to over 50% of a game's gameplay isn't pandering. However, yeah, the new systems limit choice in character customizations and play tactics, which isn't great if you want to stay an RPG. Small improvements here go a long way.

[Scarecrow_ES]

Whew... so many posts to respond to... I know it's going to be hard to keep on top of the conversation here.



One thing I wanted to drive home about these proposals is... well, I don't want to waste time trying to fix systems that work.



There are many systems from the Mass Effect games that work very differently in each one, but each system works well. One such system is the weapon and armor upgrade system. ME1 gave you a base piece of armor or weapon with no unique qualities, with incrementally better versions becoming available as you progressed in level, and it was up to you, the user to imbue that armor or weapon with unique buffs that gave it certain advantages over using other buffs. In ME2, you're given a base piece of armor or weapon that will have unique buffs built in have certain advantages over other buffs, and it is up to you the player to imbue them with incrementally better upgrades that become available as you progress in level. In reality both systems work well, and have virtually the same result in the end. Any arguement about the validity of either system becomes one of preference.



I don't want to argue preference. BioWare, in this case, has chosen a system that works well, just as the old one did. I could easily suggest other types of systems to replace this one, but I honestly think our time as a community would be better spent in looking for ways to improve a functional system rather than replace it with another functional system. There are plenty of options out there to make the weapon and armor inventory system better... my suggestion to simply expand it is an easy one. I'm excited to hear others from you all out there. I just wouldn't waste time trying to reinvent the wheel.

[kalpain]

I am guilty of the armor aesthetic too. Most of my changes were based purely on how my character would look with the bonuses having only a passing influence. Not to say that there should be bigger bonuses for some of the more ugly armor pieces to encourage people to use them (ME1 comes to mind). However, I would like to see a system where you could look how you want to look but still use some type of upgrade system to give you various bonuses. Something that would not take away from the aesthetic you design for your character.

[yuncas]

kalpain wrote...

I am guilty of the armor aesthetic too. Most of my changes were based purely on how my character would look with the bonuses having only a passing influence. Not to say that there should be bigger bonuses for some of the more ugly armor pieces to encourage people to use them (ME1 comes to mind). However, I would like to see a system where you could look how you want to look but still use some type of upgrade system to give you various bonuses. Something that would not take away from the aesthetic you design for your character.

This is pretty much what I would prefer as well. Being able to look the way i desire and being able to choose what buffs/protection I have would be ideal for me.

[Gemini1179]

Nice article. I would add that with the skill trees, add level requirements for skills as well. Not all of them have to be the same, of course- eg. the "Evolved" version of each skill shouldn't be ONLY available at lvl 30.

[Gemini1179]

kalpain wrote...

I am guilty of the armor aesthetic too. Most of my changes were based purely on how my character would look with the bonuses having only a passing influence. Not to say that there should be bigger bonuses for some of the more ugly armor pieces to encourage people to use them (ME1 comes to mind). However, I would like to see a system where you could look how you want to look but still use some type of upgrade system to give you various bonuses. Something that would not take away from the aesthetic you design for your character.

Perhaps Armor pieces with Upgrade Slots? So if you like the look of a pair of pants, but they only give you +3 Weapon Damage, but have 2 Upgrade Slots, you can add in more weapon damage, shield boost, etc.

[Scarecrow_ES]

Gemini, the evolved powers would work much like they do now in terms of point allocation. You can evolve any power you want in any order you want as long as you've got the points for it. If you want to spend your first 10 skill points evolving Barrier so you can create a small protective bubble instead of just a field around you, you can do that. More or less the same as in ME2.

[Gemini1179]

Scarecrow_ES wrote...

Gemini, the evolved powers would work much like they do now in terms of point allocation. You can evolve any power you want in any order you want as long as you've got the points for it. If you want to spend your first 10 skill points evolving Barrier so you can create a small protective bubble instead of just a field around you, you can do that. More or less the same as in ME2.

So then how do you get around the excess point problem?

[kalpain]

Gemini1179 wrote...

kalpain wrote...

I am guilty of the armor aesthetic too. Most of my changes were based purely on how my character would look with the bonuses having only a passing influence. Not to say that there should be bigger bonuses for some of the more ugly armor pieces to encourage people to use them (ME1 comes to mind). However, I would like to see a system where you could look how you want to look but still use some type of upgrade system to give you various bonuses. Something that would not take away from the aesthetic you design for your character.

Perhaps Armor pieces with Upgrade Slots? So if you like the look of a pair of pants, but they only give you +3 Weapon Damage, but have 2 Upgrade Slots, you can add in more weapon damage, shield boost, etc.

Yeah, something like that could definitely work.  I really like the idea of being able to customize look of my characters.

[Scarecrow_ES]

Ok, for those wondering why this has been dropped as a stickied thread...



Apparently, after the topic got stickied there had come some concern that the subject of the topic was similar in nature to the stickied "ME3 Wishlist" topic. At his assertion, I don't know whether to laugh or cry. Maybe a little of both. By all means, take a look at that thread and you'll see what I mean. Suffice it to say, I am currently trying to work the issue.



Support from the community here, as this thread had seen in just the short time it was stickied, could go a long way in getting it back where it was.

[rabbitchannel]

Scarecrow_ES wrote...

Rabbit... I can understand a dislike for the whole "mana" pool concept. In reality though, it's just about the only way to do exactly what the devs want you to be able to do - use your powers continually in combat. See, in ME1, each power had it's own long cooldown, and you could use any power in any order you wanted as long as it was ready. So here I could spam 5 powers back to back... once I did that though, I had to wait a LONG time before I could use those powers again, and while I waiting, I likely didn't have any powers I could use. ME2 gives you a short global cooldown. You can use a power, and it recharges while you wait for yourself to recharge too. You will never find yourself unable to use a power for very long, but you can only use one at a time. You can't lift an enemy into the air, and then throw them off a cliff. Neither system is ideal... You need a system that will let you use powers often, but will also give you great freedom in how you use them. My system does that. Introducing charged powers adds a whole other layer to power combat too.

Fans of the ME1 system hate the new one, and fans of the new one hate the ME1 system. Your system is a lot like the ME2 system, except that yours produces very unbalanced gameplay that give a significant benefit to players whose class uses biotics AND tech abilities. That class basically gets to use powers twice as often as anyone else. That won't work.

Like I said... at worst, if you are simply waiting for enough recharge time to cast a single basic power, then for YOU my system will seem no different than the current system.

Good points. I always find myself wanting for the ability to throw two powers in quick succession for a combo and had to rely on squad mates for that. I realized that my system favored Sentinels a while after I posted it. haha. 

Not taking account the charged powers, it seems that the combo problem can be solved (?) by enabling players to use X number of powers before the cooldown starts. Or perhaps a timeframe starting from the moment the first skill is thrown, enabling players to throw more powers within X seconds. Just throwing out ideas here. 

[Scarecrow_ES]

Gemini... SinHound actually originally brought up to me the problem with the current tier system and extra points, so I included that in my proposal post. As for how to solve it, I think we've agreed the simplest way is to go back to an individual skill point allocation system like in ME1, where single point investments into a skill tree would result in an incremental increase in power or duration (or whatever) for that power (or some other generally useful stat boost related to the power), while the current tiers (at 1,3,6 points invested) will unlock generally more powerful versions of said power. Investing 10 total points into a power, as in the current system, unlocks the 4th tier and the evolved form of the power. This insures that even individual leftover points can go toward improving SOMETHING.



Of course, this is just one way to do it, and just about any way will suffice.



Rabbit... there's nothing wrong with relying on squadmates to combo powers. You could do that in ME1 too. But limiting what YOU can do just so you're forced to use squadmates I think is not what the devs intended. As for your few suggestions there... essentially you'd end up needing a way to figure out how many powers you can throw before you're not allowed to do it anymore. You clearly have to impose some sort of limit. I think if you look at what you just proposed, in practice, it's exactly the system I'm proposing. The "mana pool" (I hate calling it that, but eh) is pretty much the only real way to do it. It accomplishes exactly what you want.

[Gundar3]

Excellent work Scarecrow, very articulate and enjoyable to read with great suggestions. I hope that Bioware seriously considers your recommendations and are willing to engage in dialogue with the community here (albeit small). I do have a slight disagreement with your considerations towards armor though. Stats must always play a role in equipment and not be dropped entirely, but I believe that the actual focus of the player should in fact be on the aesthetics. The main reason being that there are so many cinematic moments with the player character and people wish to see their own great image of Shepard. Customization is always key.



It is for that reason that a hybrid of your ideas about better stats and Gemini's suggestion about slots for armor could work well together and provide the best of both worlds. I realize that the problem with this system is that it could turn too bloated as was the case with ME1 with far too many upgrades which in the end proved tedious and excessive. Perhaps is we pulled in your idas about upgrades for the slots in the armor though we would be on to something.



In the end, well done sir.