903 réponses à ce sujet

[mornegroth]

 Awesome thread, good work Scarecrow.

I won't paste my ideas here because I already have in the Mass Effect 3 Wishlist. Had I noticed this thread first...
I read some of the points in your original post but not the whole text, I'll give it a full read sometime and post my criticism about it.

[Scarecrow_ES]

Comparing a loading screen with small tidbits of information relevant to gameplay, such as those in say Fallout 3 or Forza 3 to the "elevator" sequence of Mass Effect 1 and trying to derive some respective value from those methods of behind-the-scenes loading is very difficult.



Surely there exist technology to literally stream just about everything in a game space as you go, and many games use this. However, there is always some sort of prompt, and a period during which the loading occurs. This is often hidden, but it's there. Halo 3: ODST, using an example of a recent game I've played that did internal streaming very well, breaks up the main game world into readily destinct "districts" which are each streamed in as you move from one to another. As you approach the boundry from one "district" to another, marked by a massive door, the engine begins loading the adjacent "district," whether you actually intend to go there or not. Activating the door to the new area completes the load. BUT, the door will not begin opening until the load is finished, and so door wait times will vary. During the loading time, the engine will essentially be doubley tasked, having to maintain all assets for both areas. For the player, the transition is nearly seamless.



Mass Effect 1 was largely less tactful in hiding the transition mechanism... placing you in a confined space for a short period while the new area loaded. The end effect, though, is the same - the next area loads without removing the player from the game. However, in Mass Effect 1's system, the player is exposed to a bit of content while he waits that is only possible to achieve during these loading sequences. It creates an interesting pass-time. In this regard, because the player is not removed from the game (thus maintaining immersion), and because there is content associated with the transition, there is greater value in this sort of loading method when compared to a traditional loading screen. Undoubtably the smoother type of transition shown in a game like ODST would be quicker, and more seamless... but I think the additional content in ME1 makes up for that. There is no reason to think that will the advances made in ME2, that "elevator" sequences couldn't be brought back in a way that makes these somewhat unnecessary (from a purely functional perspective) sequences highly desireable. If we add in the cinematic overtone of normal conversations, for instance, and varying sights and experiences to "elevator" periods, these would certainly be more engaging to the player than watching a loading screen.



There's a lot more you wrote there, Lauren, that I might want to touch on, but for this post, and because of my little available time at the moment, it's best I stick to the core arguement until I have more time later to address level design issues.

[Scarecrow_ES]

Welcome to the thread Mornegroth. Yeah, there's a lot of text to wade through in the OP, and over 30 pages now of responses too with some very interesting ideas as well. I'm in-progress on consolodating some of the best ideas into a revised OP, which will serve to refine some of the original proposals as well as outline some others that have been brought in over time.

[Gets Shot]

I've been thinking about the ammo mechanic as presented in ME2 since the day the game first came out, and this thread knocked a few new thoughts loose that will hopefully provoke discussion.

Many people have complained that the switch to a system with limited ammo from one with unlimited ammo makes no sense, but I think it makes perfect sense, you just need to take it one step further than the codex entry to understand.

If you were an armed force participating in combat the first thing you would do would be to set up some sort of "cooling tower" at your position. That way you get the advantages of both systems, no wait to cool the gun, and you could slot thermal clips into the CT to quickly cool them back down so that they could be reused.

The question then becomes how small could you make the platform to cool thermal clips. Could it only be installed in buildings, carried one to a squad or could each soldier use their own omni-tool to cool the thermal clips back down. On the other hand maybe you just shove them back into your bandoleer and the cooling is built into the clip itself.

You could adapt this to work as a lore explanation for any sort of changes to the current system you need to make.

[LaurenIsSoMosh]

Scarecrow_ES wrote...
There is no reason to think that will the advances made in ME2, that "elevator" sequences couldn't be brought back in a way that makes these somewhat unnecessary (from a purely functional perspective) sequences highly desireable. If we add in the cinematic overtone of normal conversations, for instance, and varying sights and experiences to "elevator" periods, these would certainly be more engaging to the player than watching a loading screen.

See, this is the kind of forward thinking I'm looking for from BioWare.

Elevators in and of themselves are not a core experience in the Mass Effect universe; they're not a bullet point on the back of the box, and they're not the reason people get excited about Mass Effect. However, some simple changes could have turned it into a part of the core experience. No need to cut off the fat when you can convert it to muscle. Conversations don't take a lot of processing power, right? Add some painted backdrops or looping video, slap on some scripted dialogue, and you're pretty much good to go. All the rest of the brains can be diverted to loading the next section.

I admire their ambition to keep the player immersed, but you can't just drop someone in a box for two minutes and expect them to be content. Even if it's just arm wrestling mini-games with a krogan or water cooler moments with the squad, anything other than a traditional loading screen has got to have some interactivity to it or it's a failure of the original intent.

Modifié par LaurenIsSoMosh, 25 juin 2010 - 12:47 .

[Scarecrow_ES]

No, I agree with you there... aside from the actual conversations and news stuff in the elevators of ME1, elevator sequences were boring. Of course, the tech BioWare is using has come a long way since then. Given the limited focus of potential "elevator" sequences, the actual number of assets needed to run these sequences is very small. Beyond simply long elevator rides, we've discussed in this thread an opportunity to use shuttle rides to the same purpose. Mix in some basic situational animations, the typical conversational camera work, and a bit of flair, and these sequences go from a poor way to hide the streaming in of the next level to an integral part of the experience for the player, offering exposition, character development, etc under captive settings.



Beyond that, I've also suggested allowing the player to actually skip these sequences and move onto a more traditional loading screen if he so chooses, which may be slightly faster, but misses out on content.



Certainly I'm not any more interested in bringing back ME1 style "elevator" sequences any more than I am in keeping the ME2 loading screens, but clearly there is now an opportunity to expand on the ME1 method in a way that accomplishes loading and keeps the player engaged.

[Scarecrow_ES]

ok, been gone for a couple of days so here's a bump.

[Scarecrow_ES]

Ouch... sorry guys... I've been traveling and it's been tough to get in here and bump the thread.

[Doctor_Jackstraw]

I was thinking that research should be done some different way. powers are great as is though. maybe have two kinds of exp. exp for killing monsters and finding stuff that you use for squad stat upgrades in a manner similar to mass effect 1 (it can be it's own tab) and then the regular powers that are individual per character. The problem with research is that it kind of feels too much like you're just throwing abunch of stuff under a rug or something. yeah increasing abilities is there and all but it's just too hard to keep track of what you've got, what you would want....not only that but the method for acquiring them is a little weird and half-hazard feeling in me2. a majority of the research items you get from squadies involve strange, stilted little conversations that run the line of being out of character. Finding research items can sort of feel a little underwhelming because you don't really always understand what you're getting or what impact it's going to have. Developing specialized weapons feels a little weird when they're right next to "get 10% better attack".



I get that it's basically the same function as leveling up in me1, but for some reason it doesn't feel as satisfying, research material acquisition can be too easily acquired in long ways, it doesn't really feel that much like a sense of progression that way. Just having tiny little bar incrimentals that increase as you kill monsters would put an emphasis again on killing (you can skip any enemy that isn't holding a door locked in 2) Maybe there's a way of combining the material gathering of the first game into the "twinking" style from the first game. Making sure it doesn't interfere with power leveling is important. Getting exp for mission complete to use on powers creates a great gameplay balance, maybe there'd still be a balance for a second type of exp for stat leveling. Bringing back some of that from ME1 would be nice. it could be individual or for the entire squad, or maybe you could make decisions between beefing shepard and your allies. Also it'd be nice if the paragon/renegade upgrades weren't part of the class type upgrade, they sort of take some of the fun out of the choice the way they're implimented. beefing paragon or renegade or both was a choice in the first game that ended up sacrificing other potential stats for better negotiation and was a total rpg fest. it'd be nice to get some of that back for me2. Also sorry if this is messy as hell but I'm sort of typing this while half asleep. sorry. I hope I got across what I wanted though.





Even if it's not something like the first game, at least changing the interface for research and acquisition methods would make it easier and more fun to use. a giant list of items divided into four groups doesn't really feel like it works that well. most research time is just spend clicking whatever is orange and then clicking RESEARCH. maybe a new system could allow smaller increments for more specialization. shifting negotiation bonuses over to there would be nice. alot of people have talked about how weird it is that your ability to shoot a gun is tied to your ability to talk to people about not shooting.



again sorry if this is super messy but i am tired from playing too much mass effect 2 :<

[Scarecrow_ES]

I'll be putting my official proposal for changes to the research and upgrade system in my update, but we had a conversation about some of the basics of it at least a few pages back. I too find the whole setup in ME2 to be a terrible way to do things, largely because there is little true investment in upgrades on the part of the player, and much of the upgrading is somewhat random. Unfortunately, there is a distinct possibility of missing out on upgrades too because they are often hidden in levels where you may only have one shot at finding them.



Overall, yeah, this is definitely an area that could use some fixes.

[Scarecrow_ES]

bump

[Scarecrow_ES]

ooooch... bump again.

[theelementslayer]

Ok, first let me start off saying this is a great list, and I did make it through the whole thing, alot of text but Its worth it. Anyways Im here to just pick apart your first post, the only one I read, dont have the time for all 30 pages sorry, and well Im here to offer my constructive critisim. So without further ado.

PS, all these quotes are from Scarecrow

1. Concerning Weapons and Equipment
Inventory Refinement {INVNT}

The removal of dropped loot and the elimination of redundant equipment
is an improvement over the Mass Effect 1 system; however, the system in
Mass Effect 2 is possibly more limited than it should be. It would not
take much expansion to reach a point that would be acceptable to fans of
the old system, while keeping the nature of the new system.

Totally agree, better streamlined in ME2, just a touch too much. I spent most time in ME2 using the assault rifle that I got with Garrus, and the Submachine Gun I got at Talis recruitment mission

rather than finding these weapons on missions (thus ensuring
a user does not have access to the weapon he may like until the story
says he can be, or missing out on a weapon or item permanently if he
doesn’t immediately find it in a mission), new weapons should be
available to receive when the user chooses, either through shops,
research, licenses, or whatever system seems best. Keeping the current
Mass Effect 2 upgrade system (without one-time, missable mission
pick-ups) allows all weapons in a category to grow as the user does.

The picking up of weapons on missions I liked, made me feel like, wow, Im not the best equipped in the galaxy, maybe this weapon will help me. However I do like the idea of not having to switch to it right away, I hate when Im playing with a submachine gun and get the Tempest at talis recruitment. Just a simple weapon loadout screen when you get the weapon would be fine so you dont have to automatically switch over to it. However the weapons that are common, for example the Tempest and such we should be able to pick up at a shop and/or research it. For rarer weapons though, picking them up on a mission would feel special, and only have one of them.

Armour

As much as it pains me to say this, I love both games and I hate saying one should be like the other, but make ME3's armour system similar to Dragons age. Have person specific armours though, I hated in DA that my female elf could wear the same armour as Sten. Sorry hes a touch too big for that type of armour .

So similar, split it up, gautlent, body, legs, head, maybe 3 different things for each, nothing too much, and have different bonuses so you can build it to your playstyle. Reskinning isn't the best thing but as a modeller myself I can say it makes it alot easier then creating something from scratch, so I understand why it happens.

2. Concerning Weapons Gameplay
Refinements {WEAPS}

Personally I liked the ammo system, maybe it's because I came from a FPS background and am used to it but I felt that it made you do many things

a) You couldnt just use one weapon like in ME1, personally I always selected the assault rifle talent and lo and behold thats all I used. Long range, close range, anything it was the assault rifle. With infinite ammo you could just sit back and pop shots until the enemy died, no real tactics needed. However with ammo I have to move up until my weapon is in range and then use my shots carefully. It felt more tactical, I would have to pick my targets to shoot and to use powers on. If I was a soldier, aka really no powers just a ton o' guns, I really dont remember a problem with ammo.

Speed: With the ammo system it felt alot more frantic and I kinda liked it. Not just sit back, pop off a few shots and uh oh your overheated. Oh darn. There was rarely an immediate threat. Felt kinda like the Mako, way too long to have the heat drop and fire again.

c) Use of powers/tactics: With the limited ammo it made you use powers more it seemed, or use them together with bullets. As an adept now I life the enemy and shoot them off a ledge, saves me ammo and it adds a new tactical aspect. In ME1, or with unlimited ammo just felt like I could use my powers to kill them quicker but If I just hold down and keep shooting nothing will really change, I dont have to worry. With a ammo capacity it makes me think about stuff.

3. Concerning Improvements to Power/Skill Customization and Usage {PWRSKLL}

My proposal is simple. Rather than use power cooldowns, whereby when a
power is used you must recharge before you can use it again, we instead
have an energy meter which depletes some every time a power is used, but
regenerates over time. This is fundamentally similar to the weapon heat
system from Mass Effect 1. The user may use any power at any time and
in any order, so long as there is still energy in the meter. This could
mean using the same power back to back against several enemies, or it
could mean using several different powers to combine their effects. Once
the energy in the meter is drained to a point where there is not enough
energy to use another power, the user must wait to regenerate the
energy. As soon as there is enough energy in the meter, he can use a
power again (once again depleting his energy fully), or wait to
regenerate even more energy and unleash a series of powers. There will
only be enough power in the meter to unleash 2-3 normal-strength powers,
though it may be possible to upgrade the amount of energy available or
to reduce the regeneration time through research upgrades or skill
bonuses, if desirable.

While this does seem workable I just dont see it in ME, makes it too much like DA and again I think itll slow down the combat. You can spam many talents and then just sit behind cover, wait for them to recharge and spam again. Honestly I liked the breif everything cooldown, except with maybe one improvement. Weapon ammo switches should have its own cooldown, biotics another, and tech another because well a biotic amp and an omni tool are two different tools and should have different cooldowns. Really would only make a difference to Sentinels though. Alltogether though, I think that the system really shouldn't be touched. Dont fix what works.

Skill Assignment and Evolution

I liked the more streamlined choices in ME2, made it alot easier to keep track of and just in the end nicer to look at, and I found that the end ones were a nice choice, could cater to your playstyle a touch more.

Once a player devotes enough points to any active power, he unlocks the
ability to evolve that power. This power will then be available in both a
standard form and the charged evolved form. The standard for will
behave just as the power had before being evolved. For instance, Biotic
Throw may streak forward and hit the aimed target; knocking him away
from the direction he was hit. However, when Throw is assigned to a
button, that button can then be held, causing greater energy to flow
into the power. When the power is fully charged, the button is released,
and the player unleashes a much more powerful version of that power. In
the case of Throw, perhaps not only will the power knock the target
enemy back, but will explode on any contact and push anything back
within a given area of effect at significantly higher power than in the
standard version. Using the evolved power will also result in a complete
drain of the power meter, instead of the partial drain of the standard,
which limits the use of the evolved powers further, and creates a wider
variety in the tactical use of powers.

I liked this idea, and it had me thinking of Civilizations tech tree or FFXIII's crystarium, however the problem with this being that you would have to pick your specialization early on and really couldnt change it up. However using the reallocation of powers "upgrade" it might not matter. Let me explain

A player would have again maybe 4 or 5 teirs of powers, with all the abilities of their class, however at the top there would be your main power, and branching off would be the others. Special powers would be extra points off to the side of each main power upgrade however if you liked it you could buy it, if you didnt want to well skip away from it. This gives the player more choice and really in any game that has a max level before enough points can be used there is always a few leftover points. In ME1 it really was the same. In ME2, however it made me think more beofre just allocating points. I liked their new system.

Revamping the Controller

Just a quick offtopic here YAY dont have to me has a keyboard and mouse. PC FTW.

done with that now lets move on

4. Concerning Planet Scanning and Resource Management {SCNSMGMT}

I liked the ideas with the many minigames however I can see a few things that some people might not like with it. Already the masses are getting bored with just scanning planets, and add a few more things in just to get the resources, I can see a troll invasion right now. Persoanlly I like it but the mass probably doesnt.

5. Upgrades

I know you probably put this in yours but I cant find it again and Im just going to say a few things that I think might work. 

-Make a different interface for upgrades, maybe just along the lines of a tree but looking through all of my upgrades in chronological order just to see what I had upgraded was a pain. Other then that the upgrades felt like they did something. Hell 50% better damage reduction or better assault rifle damage. These helped in the last boss battle. Just make it easier for us to find them.

Now Scarecrow, I made it though your post lets see if you made it through mine.  Overall I liked your points and these are just constructive critisim. I love the ME games, absolutly love them. I have total faith in Bioware making a perfet game 100 Metacritic. These are just suggestions.

Modifié par theelementslayer, 07 juillet 2010 - 04:49 .

[Scarecrow_ES]

I've got a lot on my plate this second, so I can't get through your whole post and give you a proper reply, but rest assured I value your comments and will get back to your post when I'm not quite as busy.

[JLBoyyy]

since this is on the fourth page, i thought it would be nice for me to at least bump it so it is easier for you to find later or something...

[Scarecrow_ES]

Element Slayer... just got through all your post. I think most of your concerns about some of the proposals I've made that you didn't quite agree with have been addressed at some point in the 30 or so pages of posts to this topic. In that time, we've been able to clarify the proposals to the point where most players' concerns have been satiated. As of yet, none of those clarifications have made it to the OP, but I'm working on a revision that will bring some of the best new ideas to the OP and work on the language of earlier proposals to make them more clear and appealing to potential detractors.



I think you'll find, with the upcoming update, that those few concerns you have will drift away, and you'll get a better picture of how my changes would improve the overall experience in ME3... and without having to read 30 pages of posts. Thanks again for posting!



And thanks to JL for the bump.

[Scarecrow_ES]

I'm finalizing what items I'm going to include in the upgraded Compendium. Unfortunately, combing through 30 pages of the lengthy posts this thread has become famous for has proved a bigger challenge than I had expected. Consequently, I can only hope to include the most memorable suggestions we've discussed in the last 5 months, and I don't believe there's any way I can pick out the absolute best of some of the more buried discussions.



As such, I think much of what's already been updated in my version of the Compendium significantly expands on the OP, and incorporates some of the most significant ideas that have developed here. I think the updated OP will be a much longer read than the original - currently totally over 20 typed pages (with formatting).



Some of the ideas so far included have been weapon mods, changes to the upgrade system, changes to skill selection and point assignment, and overall refinement and clarification of earlier proposals. There's a lot in there for those new to the thread, long-time supporters, and casual glancers.



I hope to put the finishing touches on the source post soon, review it, and have it posted on the site very soon. There's a lot I have to go through, so I hope you'll all bare with me.

[Scarecrow_ES]

Ok, finally. I present to you My Compendium, Update 2. This update is now live on the topic. As formatted, it represents approximately 22 typed word pages. I do have to apologize for the formatting, however, which does look a whole lot better in Word than on the grey background of the site here. I will have to figure out a way to change the formatting in a way that helps to break up the significant wall of text for easier reading. However, I think Update 2 is content complete, and so have added it to the original post. I hope you'll all give it a read (whenever you're in the mood.)

[Nashiktal]

I'm just going to add one tiny thing to the ammo debate...

I have never felt as satisfied as I did when a whole room of mercs lay dead, and almost every, single, one of my weapons were out of ammo. (Save for whatever gun I switched to last.) It just felt so... Epic holding the line and finally running out of ammo just in the nick of time.

(Just to clarify, I play on insanity.)

Modifié par Nashiktal, 11 juillet 2010 - 07:32 .

[jbebout]

Resources trading and selling. We scan all of these planets and gather a bunch of resources. It would be nice to be able to sell them for cash to buy weapons upgrades or trade for the resources that you need.

[JLBoyyy]

it took me about an hour (im a pretty slow reader) to get through both of your posts, but i have to say it was defiantly worth it. i applaud you for taking so much time doing all of that work and you should at least get an internet cookie. also, i think it would be a great idea to sticky this so more people could add to it (since more people see it) and hopefully someone on bioware at least will look at it. the only thing i dislike is the controller scheme. with the controller scheme, i think it should be fully costumisable to the player (similar to Street Fighter). I mean, PC players can, so should we. Other than that, I believe that is a great idea.



also a bump if this got a off first page (i dont even remember)

[Scarecrow_ES]

Nashiktal... under my hybrid heat system there will still likely be occasions where your heat/ammo conservation ability will be pressed to the limit. Yes, technically you will have access to infinite ammo if you're controlled enough, but as you say, when you're forced to take on a room full of mercs or a hoarde of husks, conserving ammo is not always an option. There will no doubt be moments under my system where you'll go into a fight with a full compliment of weapons and coolant, and end it on the very last bit of coolant you have, with some of your favorite weapons overheated (on Insanity of course). Those tense moments will definitely be a part of the system I've proposed... but of course those less tense moments will be far less frustrating under mine than in the ME2 system.



jbebout... under my resource managment modifications, the minerals that you mine will have far more uses - whether its for trading for other minerals or cash, or building weapons upgrades, etc. My proposal gives you exactly what you ask for!



JL... Once upon a time this topic was stickied... for about a day, maybe less. The mod staff then got it into their head that this topic was too similar to the ME3 Wishlist thread, and decided to unsticky mine. Of course, my topics came first, and I had been promised a sticky, so its not like I believe the choice was fair, but what can you do. I do find it ironic, however, that the mods said MY topic was too similiar to the Wishlist thread (again, remembering that mine came FIRST), but that they found the DLC and Armors wishlist thread to be different enough to warrant stickying. Kinda messed up.



Anyway, the controller scheme was just to demonstrate how the controller could be rearrainged to remove unused buttons and to optimize the control scheme to incorporate press-and-release power usage and evolved powers. Certainly since I also gave the option to access charging powers from the standard power wheel, then it is not necessary to use the control scheme I demonstrated. As such, there is no reason a user configurable control scheme wouldn't be possible, though it may be less optimal in the end then the one I presented.

[Scarecrow_ES]

bump for the masses.

[Sklibbles]

Well done sir

[Scarecrow_ES]

Thank you... quite a lot there to read, but it's worth it, as so many of the regulars here will tell you.