903 réponses à ce sujet

[JLBoyyy]

friendly bump

im thinking not many people see this thread as much as they should. either that, or its too big and people dont like wall of texts (i do though...)

[95Headhunter]

I regret that it's taken me this long to read this thread. I haven't been a regular visitor to the site since a month or two after ME2 came out, and back then I was so sick of the complaint threads that I avoided this.



I have to say I'm impressed. I agree with every single one of the points you made, and I love ME2 as it is. Obviously there's some points I'm more indifferent about than others, the cooldown one I was fine with as is, given what we're told about biotics. But that being said, it's hard to deny the system you propose is better and more technically correct. I'd be very content if all the points you suggested were implemented.



It's just a shame that Bioware can't just implement this as is. I've heard it said before that it's very difficult to take suggestions from the community where the issue of credit comes up, and the risk of litigation. I know as well as you do that no fan would demand reward if their suggestion made it into the game, but the company can't make that assumption and I understand that,



Hopefully Bioware can at least take some of that into consideration and act on it. Any tweaks like those you suggested would improve the game.

[mdouglas86]

Scarecrow: I've read most of your updated thread on your ideas to improve the game. I have to say I agree wholeheartedly with all of them. I've always enjoyed playing as a biotic class either adept or vanguard. First of all, one thing I didn't see mentioned in your section about powers is your take on protections (i.e. shields and armor) and how that should be altered for the third game. I'm playing through on insanity with a vanguard and beat the game on the next level down (veteran?) with an adept.



I like the fact that there are protections for enemies and I can't just fling them all around with mind bullets at will, but I do not like the fact that certain powers such as shockwave and throw/pull are rendered "under-utilized" on insanity. I do think that your improved power meter system helps in this regard by allowing you to combine powers yourself without overly spamming them. I think that would allow for more of what the game designers intended. However, if I hit someone with a shockwave, it should knock them down or stagger them in a much more pronounced way than it seems to when using the power against the regular enemies. When scions hit me with shockwave on the collector ship level on insanity I'm pretty well effed if there are other enemies concentrating their fire on me. I think this should also be true when I use a power on a standard humanoid opponent, even if they have protection it should stagger them or knock them down/pop them out of cover for my teammates or myself to shoot them.



Also, I like your power evolution idea and holding down buttons to charge powers. I should say though for your controller layout, I think you could run into problems if you click once to select the enemy and click again to release the power, and really mapping powers to the x and b buttons in general. With a controller you need your thumb to stay positioned on the right stick to be able to bend powers effectively. I think the power wheels should be mapped to the x and b buttons and keep the shoulder buttons free for the mapped powers so we can maintain our reticle being in the right place. I think the two-click system if you want to call it that would have some problems of being locked into an action and not being able to back out. Like say you decide to use throw on an enemy across the room so you click b to highlight him and a krogan starts charging you. You don't want to have to fiddle with extra button clicks to "unlock" yourself from using throw on some other guy. If the camera were to auto-center or highlight the enemy you click on, I could also see that causing problems with wonky camera angles or tunnel vision like not seeing an enemy coming from your flank.

[Scarecrow_ES]

Thanks for the bump JL... I'm trying to work the sticky issue again. I'm slowly moving the matter back up the chain of moderators from bottom to top so I don't go over someone's head and anger them. Technically, my suggestion threads came out before the ME3 Wishlist thread, and had been stickied about the same time. Because my topic was more focused, the powers that be unstickied it, citing that they didn't need two of the same type of thread stuck at the top. Well, since my had been de-stickied, another similar wishlist thread has been stickied. Clearly, if there is room at the top for two extremely similar topics, then why not mine, right?



Headhunter... you're right in that there is always a danger of intellectual property rights if a company uses a suggestion in media from someone without specifically compensating them. However, in the game medium, who's to say who really came up with what, as rarely there is ever a truly original design choice implemented in gameplay. For every idea I've displayed in my Compendium, I can cite literally a dozen similar suggestions in the community, and another dozen games that use similar concepts.



I mean, I had suggested an idea to improve the Tactical Cloak through evolved powers by allowing a one-hit-kill stealth melee attack, and not a few months later the Kasumi DLC pack came out and... whatdda ya know? She can do a one-hit-kill stealth melee attack that's remarkably similar to the one I suggested. I happen to know site mods patrol this thread, so can I claim credit for this concept? Maybe, but why bother? Couldn't someone at BioWare just as easily arrived at the same idea independently? Absolutely they could. However, I have absolutely no qualms about BioWare using any of these ideas, and I don't even need credit (and as far as I know they're under no obligation to give any).



Douglas... biotic, armor, and shield protection is not a subject I've really addressed. I don't know that there's any particular flaw in the implementation of these systems, persay... what I do believe, however, is that the game designers could have done a much better job of impressing on the player just how to get past these defenses using the rock-paper-scissors mentality of combat. I mean, what beats what is buried in menus and most players will never see it. Beyond that, because of certain design choices (the ammo and cooldown systems), players are severely limited in what tools they can use to take on enemies. What I hope to do with some of my systems is to give those tools back to the player, explain clearly how to use them, and let the player have at it. I do agree, as well, that even if a particular weapon or power proves to be ineffective against a certain type of defense, it should at least have some effect on the target, even if that's not direct damage. Your suggestion of knockback follows this line.



As far as the controller configuration, it was actually suggested to me that configuring the buttons as I had would cause problems that I admit I did not anticipate when coming up with the scheme. It was meant to merely serve as a way to show that charging powers could work with the controller we have. I made some small suggestions as to how we might be able to overcome the configuration problem, but have not received any feedback on the new suggestions. I am very interested to get opinions on the possible changes so that I can fix the OP as soon as possible.

[Scarecrow_ES]

das boomp

[Scarecrow_ES]

das boomp

[JLBoyyy]

just to say something for the purpose of saying something, since you said some squadmates have armors that have a mix between battle hardsuits and casual clothes, dont you think that it would be possible to give that option to shepard? i'm not saying full on casual clothing (same for squad i guess), but instead you can have him use things that can give different kinds of stat boosts (or maybe decrease stats) to make it more interesting. it would also be interesting to have armor that weighs more increase and decreases things. i think that squadmates should have the option to use full suits too if the player wants it to be like that



also maybe might kinda most likely probably usually is almost a bump.... maybe

[Scarecrow_ES]

The thing is... with clothing options... ME1 kinda sucked because everyone had the same suits. Different levels, but same suits. It never made sense, because everyone was just basically wearing a military issue hardsuit, even if they weren't military, but at least every looked like they were ready for combat. In ME2, characters look far more distinct, but honestly almost noone looks ready for combat. Really, I think it should be somewhere in between. A character's combat attire should reflect their affiliation and individual personality, but it should be combat-ready.



I like how the personality part of clothing is handled in ME2, but like I said, a suit that's just a texture swap isn't a real suit. And besides, if we're going into a hostile enviroment, boob straps and a face mask aren't going to cut it. That's fine for the ship, but outside it's time for business.



If we split outfits for squadmates into casual and combat, like with Shepard, and allow for several different complete combat suits for each character to be selected by the player, then we can make it so each suit has unique qualities which makes it attractive for a different reason. Some suits may offer more damage protection, some may offer stat boosts, and some may buff power usage... and so on.



With this, you can have the appearance of different suits reflect the types of boosts... for instance, if a suit has more damage protection, it may look bulkier than the other suits available to that character. And of course the suits will all reflect that character's personality, so even if there is a suit for multiple characters that adds the same sorts of effects, they will look entirely different.

[Scarecrow_ES]

In a small way, I think I was even a little insulted with the alternate appearance pack because all this really did was add a pair of shades to the character model. That's an over-simplification of course, and at least it was nice to see Jack in some more appropriate attire. But short of a handful of squadmates (yourself, Garrus, Legion, maybe Zaeed, and Tali to some extent) they aren't really outfitted for combat. Even your professional soldiers for hire like Miranda and Jacob walk around in the same casual uniform whether on the ship or in the heat of battle.



Would it really kill them to put on some armor? It doesn't have to be big, clunky, N7 military type stuff. Just something functional as a full environmental isolation suit compatible with full helmet and mask. It can be as slinky as you like for the fem characters... it just has to be somewhat realistic. I mean, are cargo pants and a leather "bikini" top (defined as loosely as possible) really the best choice of clothing if we're walking into a ship full of hostile aliens or a derelict hybrid alien vessel which may or may not be space-worthy?

[s0meguy6665]

i could not read all of it but i agree with many of your points that i did read and i'm sure you proposed many great changes since there are many clear improvements to be made. however,

maybe you could put some information in there that shows how bioware/EA would benefit from your changes more. customer enjoyment isn't a good enough reason for them if it doesn't bring them more money than it costs, and they also won't be all that excited to make their game less dumbed down.

Modifié par s0meguy6665, 26 juillet 2010 - 10:32 .

[Scarecrow_ES]

Well, realistically speaking, Guy, I have intentionally kept away from suggestions that BioWare doesn't already have experience with, or whose value to the player would be minimal in comparison to the work required to implement the changes. Many of the suggestions (like weapon heat changes) require fairly minor coding reworks that could be accomplished over the course of a day (for hard coding completion). Even some of the systems (like the mod system) that require additional support can be accomplished simply and during the normal development cycle, since many of those systems will require reworking and updated user interfaces anyway for the next game. Many of the systems have their origins in other BioWare systems, and so those earlier systems can be used as reference.



To the end user, some of these changes sound quite expansive, but in reality few really are. At essense, most are just minor tweeks to the existing formula that have profound effects down the line. While a gamer unfamiliar with game development processes might worry that development staff might not be able to see the benefit of these changes from the gameplay perspective... I really don't think that's an issue...



Convincing them that building a superior and not "dumbed down" product, as you say... much harder. Let's face it, niche games don't sell. If you want to sell to the masses, build FOR the masses. But really, I think we can do both. I think we can build a better RPG with better gameplay systems and not alienate either the hardcore fan OR the casual mainstream gamer... and that message is only going to reach the developer's ears though conversations like the one we're having here.

[sAxMoNkI]

I must admit i liked the style of both ME1 and ME2 for different reasons but these suggestions seem to make the perfect middle ground, I only hope these ideas get the attention they deserve. Great thread scarecrow

[Scarecrow_ES]

Thanks for the kind words, Sax, and welcome to the thread!

[Scarecrow_ES]

Bump

[Scarecrow_ES]

and again

[Scarecrow_ES]

really? getting ridiculous now

[Scarecrow_ES]

Maybe I should try to bump this during the day when people are actually on to post. It looks lame to have to bump a 10,000+ viewed thread yourself for 4 days straight just because noone's around to post on it.

[Filthy Lizard]

I like alot of your suggestions, however for power cooldowns I think a better system would be somewhere in between ME1 and ME2, have a short global cooldown after any power use while also having longer individual power cooldowns. And if charging of powers is included, make it slightly increase the individual cooldowns the longer the power is charged.



I like your idea for weapons, however I think it could use a couple changes

+/- Damage = -/+Capacity(Cooling) and/or +/- Recoil and/or -/+ RoF

+/- RoF = +/- Recoil and/or -/+ Accuracy



I would also like to be able to aquire unique non-heavy weapons(and other items) through defeating bosses and sub-bosses



I would like to see the re-introduction of bio-amps and omni-tools



For helmets, there is no need for toggle, just make them collapsible. And for all visors and open helms include a full helm variant for worlds with no atmo.



I think your ideas for upgades are too complicated. I suggest a simpler solution, anytime you find an upgrade during a mission add it to your usable upgrades, rather than giving you a schematic, and also unlock the schematic for the next level. Always unlock the next schematic(if there is one) when you either purchase, find, or research the current level, as well a level requirement could be placed as a pre-requisite on certain upgrages before they can appear in store, during a mission or be unlocked for research. This way the opportunity is always there to aquire all upgrades.



Something else that I would like to add, I would like to see a tactics system similiar to what is in DA for our squadmates, give each squad mate a couple unchangeble unique tactics only available to them, as well as several open slots so that we may define in what situations they are to use what powers and weapons.

[Scarecrow_ES]

Lizard... I'm somewhat confused... In the cooldown system you propose, the amount of time between the effective use of powers is, ultimately, the length of the cooldown period of the fastest recharging power if the player wishes to use the same power again. In practice, there may be a small limit imposed on using the same power back to back as you wait for this individual recharge, but there'd be an exploit in that you'd be able to use a combo of powers (first, second, first again) to get around this imposed limit. Or, transversely, you could use a very powerful ability, followed immediately by a string of weaker abilities, and then follow right back into a powerful ability. Unfortunately the system is very exploitable, and very difficult to balance compared to the much simpler and less exploitable system I've put here.



Your additions for tradeoffs between individual weapon models fit well within the examples I've already provided. It doesn't matter, particularly, which attributes are traded for which others, as long as there is that sort of rotational cause and effect... rock-paper-scissors mentaility.



I have no objection to obtaining unique weapons in boss battles except for the idea that these are fixed drops that can be missed or acquired out of a desired order. It has nothing to do with character building, and more to do with the order in which players tackle missions (or whether they ignore them). Not very fun.



Re-introduction of BioAmps and OmniTools may not be necessary given the fact that the progression of those items in ME1 was entirely linear in nature, and there was always a best device available to the player. This eliminates the need for choice. If there's always a best one, and the player gets access to the next best one as he levels up, then why not just provide him with the upgrades automatically and cut out the tedious inventory management. This is effectively what you see in ME2, though clearly I'd prefer this was expanded upon at least a little.



As far as upgrades go, you pretty much re-described my system using different words. There is no functional difference. The schematics are the upgrades available to you to apply to your weapons. Rather than finding an actual physical part in a mission or store that you can then apply to a weapon (a la ME1), you simply acquire the means to produce them yourself through design schematics. When you find a new schematic, it increases the level of the specific upgrade you've acquired, or adds a new type of component to your list of available components you can use.



If you find, say, your first Thermal Sniper Scope, you can then add a level one Thermal Scope to your sniper rifle as an upgrade to the optics. In order to USE that upgrade on a weapon, you have to expend resources to actually build it in the armory, which can be accomplished directly in the weapon configuration menu ("Add Thermal Sniper Scope to WidowMaker Sniper Rifle? Note, this upgrade requires 1000 Palladium, 1000 Silicon, 3000 Carbon. YES/NO"). If you find another Thermal Sniper Scope schematic, it will increase the level of that schematic, allowing you to use that next level, and automatically upgrading any version of that scope you've already applied to a weapon. Whenever you remove a part from a weapon, it is broken down to base materials, some of which is returned to your stockpile.



At essense, the system allows you to have an extensive list of upgrade types, and absolutely no inventory. You can add whatever part whenever you want to whatever weapon. You don't have to worry about only finding one Combat Optics X upgrade for the 3 squadmates who are currently using the 9-level Combat Optics, none of whom are in your current party. And no more lugging around 500 components you'll never be able to use or sell.



And as for the last suggestion... anything we can do to make squadmates more useful, I'm all for it.

[LaurenIsSoMosh]

Lizard's post really reminded me of a confusion / wish I had all throughout the hype for ME2's release.

I thought that weapon customization would still be on the same scale as it was in Mass Effect, except, like Shepard's armor, customization would take place on the Normandy, in the armory or something. And, while in combat, players could cycle through preset weapon modes. That was what was later revealed to be ammo powers, which is what I was confused about. So, the scale was way more limited.

I really think this is what Mass Effect 3's system should be, though. I was disappointed to find players no longer had control over how many rounds a weapon could fire before overheating, or how rapidly they could fire. The biggest issue is inventory clutter, but just like armor, which was found on the ground every ten seconds in the first game but is now exclusively purchased in stores, players could purchase modular weapon parts from stores. In the armory, players could install certain parts on their weapons, and then tweak the weapon to have maybe two or three different firing modes. Pressing a button in combat would cause the components in the weapon to fluctuate, allowing for a different shooting strategy. As such, players could set up their weapons with one mode providing maximum punch and accuracy, but the other having high rate of fire and slower overheating times. This would allow the player to fight strong targets at longer ranges with precision, but still be able to change modes and be prepared for a wave of cannon fodder around the turn.

[Filthy Lizard]

Scarecrow, you are correct I did pretty much redescribe your idea for upgrades(your description seems more complicated than necessary) , with a slight difference. I am suggesting that you find actual physical parts on missions rather than schematics. When you find a gun during a mission you find an actual physical gun, which you can also replicate for your squad mates without spending resources. I am also suggesting that as soon as you aquire for example Assault Rifle Damage 3(researched/purchased/found), you also automatically unlock Assault Rifle Damage 4(schematic) in your research terminal, as well as any other schematics that have Assault Rifle Damage 3 as a prerequisite.



It seems as though you believe that I am suggesting these parts go into an inventory, this is not the case. I would like new levels of upgrades/mods to act similarly to the weapons, once you have aquired it it is available to the whole squad through the weapons locker. Upon selection of a weapon you may choose to apply any available upgrades to the appropriate slot, at no resource cost(again acting similar to the weapons; when you find an upgrade during a mission you find an actual physical part, which you can also replicate for your squad mates without spending resources)



And as for the re-introduction of bio-amps and omni-tools, I would not suggest having them appear as in ME1. Begin with a balanced amp/tool and have others provide different advantages/drawbacks while actually mainting balance between all of them similar to your idea for weapons,

+/- Cooldown = -/+ Radius

+/- Damage = -/+ Duration

etc...

[yuncas]

mhmm

[Scarecrow_ES]

Well, now I'm extra confused, Lizard. Because now you're describing the way ME2's upgrade and research system works (without the added weapon customization). Find a new weapon, go to a weapon locker, select the new weapon for your squadmate. Find an upgrade, it automatically improves your stats, and then unlocks the next higher version in a store or in the research terminal (if it's available in stores, which some upgrades are not currently).



Now, additionally, you're suggesting that weapon mods, and other equipable items like weapons, have absolutely no cost to create and use. I'm not sure I can get behind that at all. I mean, even ME1 had a cost associated with equipment mods. You either had to buy them, or find them. Either way, you had to work for them. I mean, really that's how most games that have them approach equipment augments. If you want to be able to use something that's going to add extra benefit for you, you're going to have to pay for that somehow.



This system I proposed really streamlines that process by completely eliminating the inventory part of the equation. You never actually have to have any of the items in stock, and you can produce as many of them as you want as long as you've got the coinage (in this case production resources). I mean, you can help the player along, as I have, by making sure they don't have to jump through hoops to make use of the newest toy they've found (like having to travel to every shop in the galaxy to find enough of them to supply all the squadmates who need one: I'm looking at you KotOR), but at the same time, you can't just hand over these things for free. Otherwise there's no point to having an augment system at all.



I mean, that why ME2 ended up without an augment system to begin with. In ME1 players were only ever using certain mods, and they were always applying the highest level mod available to them, which created an entirely linear upgrade process, rather than the flexible and highly customizable system they desired. And of course, ultimately, players had to mess with a tedious inventory system and expend a lot of energy managing the system to ensure squadmates were always outfitted with the best mods available. The reward for the player's investment was negligible in the end, and could be entirely accomplished in the matter ME1's system was ultimately used by simply eliminating mods, and have upgrades occur linearly with none of the supporting systems. At essense, the system you describe becomes even less rewarding for the player than ME1's system. If there's not going to be any player investment I can't see wasting time and resources developing a big system around it, and to be frank, BioWare seems even less in the mood for superfluous systems (as shown by the extreme snipping ME2 received).

[Filthy Lizard]

I haven't done a very good job of explaining. I am suggesting upgrade slots in the same manner as what you described(Kotor), upgrades progressing in the same manner as you suggest

Scarecrow_ES wrote...

If you find another Thermal Sniper Scope schematic, it will increase the level of that schematic, allowing you to use that next level, and automatically upgrading any version of that scope you've already applied to a weapon.

One difference in our suggestions is how you spend resources, I am suggesting that resources be spent in the same manner that they are in ME2, rather than spending and re-aquiring resources every time you add/remove an upgrade from a weapon as you suggested.

Another differnece is that I am suggesting that when you aquire an upgrade you immediately gain the ability to research(by spending resources, therefore not free) any upgrade/mod that had the researched upgrade as a prerequisite(assuming all other prerequisites are also met).



I am not suggesting an inventory, upgrades will appear in the weapon locker similiar to weapons, the locker doesn't have 6 avengers, 6 vindicators,8 of this, 9 of that, it just lists what is available to be equipped, upgrades/mods will be the same. The highest level of all aquired mods will be listed when the appropriate upgrade slot is selected. I select the scope slot, it lists Thermal Scope a, Elecromagnetic Scope c, Scope of monkeyvision e. Once an upgrade is listed it is available to all squad mates at no additional cost(keeping in mind I had to purchase it with creds, research it with resources or find it while exploring).