903 réponses à ce sujet

[Soruyao]

So, I'm one of the biggest defenders of the current thermal clip system, as well as the global cooldown system. I'll address the thermal clips in this post and the GCD in another.



Thermal clips:



Part 1, lore: I spent a lot of time arguing about how thermal clips could make sense both in lore and for gameplay design. I compiled my arguments into several blog posts back before the game came out and I think they still apply.



This one involves some possible lore explanations for the current system: http://rhue.blogspot...mmo-part-1.html



I was a little disappointed at the way they explained the change in the game and codex, as it amounted to a simple retcon. It would have made a lot more sense if when miranda woke shepard up and told him to grab a thermal clip, he'd go "Wait what? What's a thermal clip?" The codex entry was okay, but it left a little bit of a plothole that made the change seem as tacked on as it kind of actually was. (Due to how late in development it was implimented.)



Part 2, Gameplay: The gameplay aspects are much easier to explain, since it helps combat to stay fast and frantic. It also rewards players for using a variety of weapons and not just going through the whole game and never using the rest of the weapons you're carrying. (A soldier that only uses his AR for instance, seems like a strange proposition. Why does he carry all those other guns around at all if not to use them?)



I think ammunition was actually a little bit too plentiful, and infiltrators in particular usually can go through the entire game with nothing but the sniper rifle, which I don't agree makes for an interesting playing experience.



As for a hybridized overheat/thermal clip mechanic, I have heard this recommended many many times, and I can certainly see the draw of a compromise which makes the player feel like they're actually interacting with their gun's heat output. However, the problem with any compromise between two types of gameplay is that both can end up feeling highly watered down. At worst, it could alienate both the people who liked the way it worked in ME1 and the people who like the way it works now.



1. In order for the overheat mechanic not to be so easy to work with that heat sinks become completely ignored, guns would likely end up cooling down even slower than they did in ME1. This would encourage players who don't like using thermal clips to spend a lot of time sitting behind cover waiting for their gun to cool down. This could be very boring for those players.



2. In order for the cooling system to matter, there would have to be way less thermal clips around than there are now. This means that players who like to shoot as fast and efficiently as possible (call them twitch gamers or halo kiddies or whatever you want) will run out of them a lot. Then they would be subjected to point 1, and it would infuriate them even more.



I also feel that the only thing worse than retconning an entire different means for weapons to work would be to do it all over again. Would we really be gaining enough in gameplay terms to make up for another massive retcon?



Here's how I would handle ammunition personally:



1. Explain the system better though a much more involved codex entry. (A voiced, main entry, not one of the side entries.) My blog post earlier gives some thoughts on how it could make sense without any retconning at all. (It could easily be adapted to the current geth technology explanation.) This way it feels less like a tacked on gameplay addition and more like a natural evolution of technology within the bounds of the universe.



2. Keep it the way it is now gameplay wise, but give players access to an ability which activates a semi-short GCD but generates a thermal clip for them. If the thermal clips are a really cold liquid that is being evaporated in order to muffle heat generation to stop a gun from exploding, then certain classes could use their omni tools to generate this substance and create a thermal clip. (The same super cold substance that is generated by an omni-tool for cryo-blast and fired out of the avalanche gun would be the same substance that is used in thermal clips.)



Then, either simply give this ability to the classes who would be the most vulnerable if they ran out of ammo (soldier, maybe infiltrator?) Or even better, simply offer it as a bonus power a la slam and tungsten ammo! That way, players like me who never run out of ammo anyway don't waste a power slot, but players who worry a lot about running out or who don't like hunting down clips can use the power periodically to replenish their stores.



This way, we don't abandon the system we have now that works pretty darned well for a system we have no idea if people will actually like and which might alienate people worse than the change to what we have now ever did, but we address the specific concerns people have about the ammo system, that being the danger of running out of ammunition and the tedium of ammo hunting by offering people an alternative method to achieve the same ends within the same system.

[TuringPoint]

I have absolutely not find that the infiltrator can go through using the sniper rifle. Not the single shot rifles, anyway. The heavy pistol has too little ammo, as well.

[Soruyao]

The GCD:

I think the best and simplest solution would be to offer certain classes (or all classes!) a second slower GCD (maybe unlocked later in the game?) that could only use an ability that wasn't used by the first GCD. (IE, the first ability would be only be put on cooldown, and then using a second ability would put everything on cooldown until the first GCD came off cooldown.)

This would encourage people to use a greater variety of skills without resorting to a new mechanic that is even more cliché'd than picking up ammo. Every gamer has used the mana/fatigue bar before in many games before. It is not unique or interesting. Bioshock in particular is a great example of how this mechanic works in a shooter. It works well in the game, but we've seen it all before and I think adding it to mass effect would anger more people than it pleases.

GCD's are a unique mechanic that I've only ever seen in MMOs and ME2, and I think it works very well in this game. The only real problem with it is that it encourages certain people to spam only one ability all the time in all situations. This change would encourage them to use something else while allowing them to still use the ability they like more often than their other abilities.

Not exactly sure how this would work in the UI. Maybe having each half circle represent a different GCD, or having the GCD half circles be a different color based on whether you've used the secondary one or not. (IE: You use lift and a blue GCD appears. You use warp to explode it and the GCD turns gray. It would slowly turn blue again such that in a GCD or two of a single attack cooling down, the GCD becomes blue again and you can again chain two abilities together.)

Modifié par Soruyao, 14 février 2010 - 06:24 .

[TuringPoint]

I like that idea about the GCD a lot.

[SurfaceBeneath]

Soruyao wrote...

So, I'm one of the biggest defenders of the current thermal clip system, as well as the global cooldown system. I'll address the thermal clips in this post and the GCD in another.

Thermal clips:

Part 1, lore: I spent a lot of time arguing about how thermal clips could make sense both in lore and for gameplay design. I compiled my arguments into several blog posts back before the game came out and I think they still apply.

This one involves some possible lore explanations for the current system: http://rhue.blogspot...mmo-part-1.html

I was a little disappointed at the way they explained the change in the game and codex, as it amounted to a simple retcon. It would have made a lot more sense if when miranda woke shepard up and told him to grab a thermal clip, he'd go "Wait what? What's a thermal clip?" The codex entry was okay, but it left a little bit of a plothole that made the change seem as tacked on as it kind of actually was. (Due to how late in development it was implimented.)

I actually agree that Thermal Clips are a much better mechanic than the persistent overheating of the first game. I personally think that it was silly for Bioware to even attempt to resolve the change in game mechanics via in game lore when they could have just as easily retconned it away. Retcons are a part of any evolving fiction, doubly so in a video game. It wouldn't have broken my immersion in the slightest had the change to cooling mechanics just have been implimented with a nudge and wink while everyone in the universe just pretended it had always existed that way. It wasn't a core part of the game lore.

I think that the OP does have a more lore-sound system in mind. I'm not sure if it would be as good in its in game implimentation and if it doesn't improve the gameplay than it shouldn't be there no matter how "factually accurate" it would be, however it is a nice middle ground that, if it worked well from a gameplay perspective, should certainly be given a chance in ME3.

Modifié par SurfaceBeneath, 14 février 2010 - 06:25 .

[Soruyao]

SurfaceBeneath wrote...
I actually agree that Thermal Clips are a much better mechanic than the persistent overheating of the first game. I personally think that it was silly for Bioware to even attempt to resolve the change in game mechanics via in game lore when they could have just as easily retconned it away. Retcons are a part of any evolving fiction, doubly so in a video game. It wouldn't have broken my immersion in the slightest had the change to cooling mechanics just have been implimented with a nudge and wink while everyone in the universe just pretended it had always existed that way. It wasn't a core part of the game lore.

I think that the OP does have a more lore-sound system in mind. I'm not sure if it would be as good in its in game implimentation and if it doesn't improve the gameplay than it shouldn't be there no matter how "factually accurate" it would be, however it is a nice middle ground that, if it worked well from a gameplay perspective, should certainly be given a chance in ME3.

I still like the whole "More powerful and faster shooting guns were created that allowed them to fire at rates that would have completely destroyed and overwhelmed guns with older heatsinks by using small canisters of a super-cooled liquid to muffle the heat generation so the gun doesn't explode" explanation.   It works perfectly well through the lore, does it not? (And on insanity, it even explains why enemies die so much faster too!)

I don't necessarily agree that the OP's system works with the lore better than that.  I think at best it's equal, since any technological change could technically be explained through sci-fi technobabble.   Mass effect fields and superconductors and quantum entanglement and such.

Modifié par Soruyao, 14 février 2010 - 06:32 .

[kalpain]

The only issue I had with the heat sink\\thermal clips was that with out them it renders a gun useless. Which, to me, was completely contradictory to the mechanics of the first game. Or at least the technobabble in ME1 used to describe it. So, to me, it seemed like a poor retcon until I read the new codex. Though it does make sense, given the use of technology in the first game, it seems silly that they would make a gun that, with out clips, would be completely useless. And by they I mean the manufacturers in the ME universe. Which is why I am an advocate of a hybrid system. Soruyao, I really like your idea of using the omni tool. It makes perfect sense in context of the game. At least its something I can wrap my head around. One of the good things about this particular thread is its getting me (and hopefully most of us here) to look at things from a different perspective.

[SurfaceBeneath]

Soruyao wrote...

I still like the whole "More powerful and faster shooting guns were created that allowed them to fire at rates that would have completely destroyed and overwhelmed guns with older heatsinks by using small canisters of a super-cooled liquid to muffle the heat generation so the gun doesn't explode" explanation.   It works perfectly well through the lore, does it not? (And on insanity, it even explains why enemies die so much faster too!)

I don't necessarily agree that the OP's system works with the lore better than that.  I think at best it's equal, since any technological change could technically be explained through sci-fi technobabble.   Mass effect fields and superconductors and quantum entanglement and such.

While I like the "idea", there were just quite a few logical inconsistencies formed by saying that it was new technology, such as why heat sinks were dropping on Jacob's loyalty mission when that crew had been seperated from the rest of the galaxy for a full 10 years or the fact that it is unrealistic to expect that this new technology would have completely replaced old tech across the entire galaxy in a period of two years at most. Now, I have no problem suspending belief in game for such inconsistencies, but it just seems odd to me that they even bothered at all when a retcon would have done just as well.

As for the OPs idea, again, I make no claims as to whether or not it would play better or not than the current system. I just was referring to it working better from a lore standpoint of guns being limited by their heat retention. The system proposed does seem a bit clumbersome upon further thought, though I do laude the OP for their creativity in the matter. If such a system were tried and it ended up that it worked better than the current system, then that would be awesome because it would make for both better gameplay and more consistent lore. If it doesn't, than lore is not a good reason to have a system that does not perform as well. Shaky lore can be ignored. Shaky gameplay cannot.

[SurfaceBeneath]

Also, OP, while I do enjoy the concept of charging abilities quite a bit, and think that this would work well on the Xbox 360, it has a few implementation issues that would be a problem. First of all, for the Xbox, you would only be able to charge up the abilities that were bound to the buttons. This would either limit the choices the player has during combat or would make combat a frustrating affair of having to constantly swap out these abilities. For the PC, you face a problem where such a mechanic just doesn't really "feel" right when you're accessing most of your abilities via the 1-9 key commands, as this requires you taking a finger off of your movement keys which might make using them a bit too much trouble.

Again, I do not mean to take away from your post, as your ideas are fundamentally very solid ones. Just make aware of the problems that might arise from such a system.

Modifié par SurfaceBeneath, 14 février 2010 - 07:42 .

[MadLaughter]

re sticky suckas

[Biserthebomb]

Surprisingly I completely comply with every afformentioned gameplay modification.
 Well done, I applaud you.

[color=#ff0000">[u]BIOWARE, TAKE THIS MANS ADVICE!][/color][b]

Modifié par Biserthebomb, 14 février 2010 - 07:48 .

[steve1945]

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

I mean this in no due offense, but perhaps you are simply looking at the wrong game for you then. It has been stated many times by Bioware that they intend Mass Effect to be a game that is decidedly untraditional and does not fall under the category of a Traditional RPG. Again, this is a category already filled quite sufficiently by Dragon Age. I ask you: is it fair to ask for a company to be bound to a single genre for each of their games and never be allowed the opportunity to experiment? They have already openly criticized Japanese RPG developers for doing that, it is extremely unlikely given this progressive attitude that they will follow the same route.

Maybe Bioware needs to be a company not just for those who like a very particular brand of Traditional RPG. They certainly are not abandoning those players, given their commitment to the Dragon Age IP. However for them to thrive as a company, they must not constrain themselves by artificial genre barrier and introduce gamers of other genres to games of strong narrative and character driven quality, that no other gaming company besides Bioware does.

I know what you are saying. But Mass Effect 1 sucked me in. I cant leave now.

Im just proposing a more sensible change. I hate massive change. I really do. Controlled slow change is superior. I dislike the huge difference from ME1s more traditional style to the ME2 style. I miss my inventory, I miss my massive amounts of armor and guns.

But I understand why people enjoy ME2. Im not hating on it in anyway. trust me i do love it. I just dislike the direction games these days seem to be going to. More stream lining and railroading. less choices and depth.

I consider ME2 a finely crafter Third Person shooter with excellent story telling mechanics set in a sandbox world. I do not however consider it a RPG. Im just worried that they will take it to far.  I dont want to be playing GEARS OF EFFECT 3! Though I doubt it will happen.

[Tyaol]

Bravo Bravo ! helping to bump this thread.



Good job OP...that is a lot of work, and hopefully some bioware bigshot have a look of this

[SurfaceBeneath]

steve1945 wrote...
I know what you are saying. But Mass Effect 1 sucked me in. I cant leave now.

Im just proposing a more sensible change. I hate massive change. I really do. Controlled slow change is superior. I dislike the huge difference from ME1s more traditional style to the ME2 style. I miss my inventory, I miss my massive amounts of armor and guns.

But I understand why people enjoy ME2. Im not hating on it in anyway. trust me i do love it. I just dislike the direction games these days seem to be going to. More stream lining and railroading. less choices and depth.

I consider ME2 a finely crafter Third Person shooter with excellent story telling mechanics set in a sandbox world. I do not however consider it a RPG. Im just worried that they will take it to far.  I dont want to be playing GEARS OF EFFECT 3! Though I doubt it will happen.

Certainly being that Bioware is just so good at making the traditional tactics based RPG, if this is truly your passion as a gamer, I completely understand why you would want more of the same in the sense. I really love Dragon Age Origins as it really recalled fond memories of the Infinity Engine classics I played in my high school days. Being that Bioware is the only company that really makes those kinds of games (along with an occasional output by former Black Isle alumni Obsidian and the sadly deceased Troika), it is kind of saddening the lack of quality games being made like this from other developers.

That said, I firmly stand by the decision Bioware has made in to molding Mass Effect into a finely molded Action/RPG experience. Despite being an avid RPG gamer and a lover of more deliberate, micromanagement heavy games (my favorite games are the Baldur's Gate series, Planescape Torment, XCOM, and Alpha Centauri) I had more fun with Mass Effect 2 than I have had with a game in years. I am less enthused about their decision to make the next KOTOR game an MMO, as someone who actually works in the MMO business and has played their fair share of them, however again, this is just an area where I have to accept that maybe not all Bioware games are made for me any longer. Hey, 2/3 (Mass Effect and Dragon Age) aren't bad, so I don't complain.

Modifié par SurfaceBeneath, 14 février 2010 - 08:11 .

[Soruyao]

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

While I like the "idea", there were just quite a few logical inconsistencies formed by saying that it was new technology, such as why heat sinks were dropping on Jacob's loyalty mission when that crew had been seperated from the rest of the galaxy for a full 10 years or the fact that it is unrealistic to expect that this new technology would have completely replaced old tech across the entire galaxy in a period of two years at most. Now, I have no problem suspending belief in game for such inconsistencies, but it just seems odd to me that they even bothered at all when a retcon would have done just as well.

As for the OPs idea, again, I make no claims as to whether or not it would play better or not than the current system. I just was referring to it working better from a lore standpoint of guns being limited by their heat retention. The system proposed does seem a bit clumbersome upon further thought, though I do laude the OP for their creativity in the matter. If such a system were tried and it ended up that it worked better than the current system, then that would be awesome because it would make for both better gameplay and more consistent lore. If it doesn't, than lore is not a good reason to have a system that does not perform as well. Shaky lore can be ignored. Shaky gameplay cannot.

I will give you the plot hole around Jacob's loyalty mission, and I will give you the collectors.   For the loyalty mission, they simply could avoid a situation like that in the next game, and for the collectors, it could have been as simple as mordin reverse engineering a way to use the gel canisters collectors use in our own guns.  (Maybe we find a broken collector weapon on the colony where we find veetor.)

As for the change being accepted by the entire civilized galaxy, that one is very easy.  If guns and thermal clips are easily created by factories and even omni-tools, then all it would take is omni-tool data to travel around for everyone to be able to make them and the guns.   Technology advances would travel at the speed of information.

[Frotality]

soryao,

your GCD idea seems a very good way to allow combo attacks but keep it balanced, i like it.

but on thermal clips, i have to majorly disagree on the sniper bit; my prime issue with it is that I cant use a sniper all the time, or much at all. consider this: ive done a bit of experimenting (not much, but enough) and have found that you can max out the ammo of an AR in 3-4 clips if you have no bullets left; but of course, since a thermal clip only restores 1 sniper shot, it takes 10 clips to max out your basic sniper, while fundamentally all weapons should have balanced ammo limits and yield from clips.

now of course this is a problem with the balance of the current system, not the ammo system itself. im not saying it cant work, and im not saying i cant enjoy games with an ammo system, but i do believe it doesnt belong in the ME series, especially with the hybrid idea propsed. i'll explain my personal preference for the hybrid system.

the ammo system imposes the wrong kind of limitations for the tactical challenge tps/rpgs should aim for; namely a one sided limitation. it offers punishment for misplaced shots, but no reward for well-placed ones; and for stingy players like me, this means waiting for powers to be back up is almost always preferential to shooting, even on higher difficulties. because there is a wealth of other numerically unlimited (powers, teammate fire) or strategically balanced (heavy weapons) offensive options, such limits dont make sense in ME. also its another instance of an immersion-breaking combat element that only the player is subject to (the only one in the squad wearing armor or sealed suits is another, making shepard unique in so many story irrelevant ways seperates him from the world as well as the player. a big part of immersion that alot of rpgs have is the similarity in combat options between enemy and player; in Final fantasy lets say, enemies attack thru the same system as you, they have similar abilities and limits, and overall make the battle feel like a battle of 2 creatures from the same world, and not super-soldier versus 3-sweet-spot-hits-and-your-dead final boss).

but a hybrid system fixes all that. it is still limited, it keeps the tension of wasting bullets, and it keeps with the lore, as well as immersing the player more because they know the enemy is using the same tech, not magically unlimited weapons that shepard never gets, and best of all, conservative players arent punished with the fear of there never being enough ammo, because the system rewards our playstyle appropriately. since all weapons would have proper heat-building ratios, they would have the same max clips, and would feel alot more balanced because of it.

bioware apparently had problems getting a hybrid system to work; by i would really love for them to try as hard as possible to make it work properly; it would sastisfy the best of both worlds i think.

[Biserthebomb]

Bump due to high thread approval!

[SolidDuece]

I suggest we get rid of the cover button completely. Push the stick toward the barricade to take cover, done. That simple. Under your scheme, Charging is the Left Stick. Awesome. When your charging to cover, you will automatically take it. Most people will unclick their Left stick and worry about repositioning or returning fire. To vault over a barricade, push towards and hold the Left stick to hop over. Do the same if your at the side of a barracade to pop out.  If your not holding the stick toward a hoppable direction, you will reload your weapon. Click, reload. Hold, run/vault. Also, let the player customize their control in the options menu. Here is what I would make the default controls.

Left Stick toward object: Cover
Left Stick (Hold): Move (Storm/Vault over object)
Left Stick Click: Reload
Right Stick (Click): Camera (Switch to last Weapon)
D-Pad: Squad Commands
Left Trigger: Aim Down Sights, Zoom*
Right Trigger: Fire Weapon
Left Shoulder Button (Hold): Squad Weapon Switch(Both members change to your weapon type) or non chargable Assignable Power(Bring up Weapon Wheel)
Right Shoulder Button (Hold): Combined Squad Power Attack^ (Bring Up Powers Wheel)
Y Button (Hold): Use class Specific Power (Charge class Specific Power)
X Button (Hold): Use Assignable Power 1 (Charge Assignable Power 1)
B Button (Hold): Use Assignable Power 2 (Charge Assignable Power 2)
A Button (Hold): Context Sensitive Action/Melee (Context Sensitive Hold/Charge Action)
Select Button: Objective pointer or anything you want

Modifié par SolidDuece, 14 février 2010 - 08:58 .

[SurfaceBeneath]

Soruyao wrote...

As for the change being accepted by the entire civilized galaxy, that one is very easy.  If guns and thermal clips are easily created by factories and even omni-tools, then all it would take is omni-tool data to travel around for everyone to be able to make them and the guns.   Technology advances would travel at the speed of information.

Assuming that guns are as cheap as potato chips and that we weren't in the lawless terminus systems dealing with gangs that would not always be able to keep up to the second on every technological innovation, I'd certainly buy that. You would expect many of them to still be using the old models, even a few years after their higher tech peers upgraded though.

Regardless, like I said, I don't consider it hard to just ignore the inconsistencies myself. I'm actually not a stickler at all for that kind of fictional accuracy. In fact, I didn't even really notice the logical inconsistencies myself until someone else pointed it out to me, which should show how well Bioware really did pull me in to the world they created.

All I'm trying to make a point of is that it would have been a lot easier for Bioware to have simply retconned it than to justify it through in game explanations. But then, I suppose one of the reasons I do value Bioware as a company is that they do put a ton of work in to their IPs and are not as willing as some might be to alter their lore without an in universe justification.

Modifié par SurfaceBeneath, 14 février 2010 - 08:59 .

[We Tigers]

Scarecrow_ES wrote...
With the exception of the 2 class specific skill trees, the remaining 4 trees basically break down into ammo powers, offensive powers, and support powers. I say, perhaps, allow the user to choose which two ammo powers he gets from the basic selection of disrupter, cryo, and flame ammo (I think those 3 are it). For the two remaining powers - offensive and support - allow the user to select which, in each category, they want to use according to their class archetype alignment. For an Infiltrator (tech alignment), for instance a player could select for the offensive power either the default Incineration Blast, or swap it for Overload or Cryo Blast. For the support power, he could keep AI Hack, or exchange it for something like Drone (I'm not sure what else there is). This ensures that the player can have choice in his skill set, maintains his class alignment to realistically available skills, and still maintains your sense of balanced gameply by preventing the player from loading up on offensive abilities (such as having both Overload and Incineration Blast at the same time for Infiltrators).

What do you think? Would that specific change get you on board with the idea?

I think that's definitely an improvement.  In that model, the Engineer would retain its ability to deal direct damage/buffs, while allowing some degree of customization on the Infiltrator.  I think you could probably consider Cryo Blast to be a support power a la AI Hack, because it doesn't do damage but does have a disable/distraction function.  Drone would probably have to stay engineer-only because it's way powerful.  I still like the classes as they are, but that level of customization would likely be appealing to many players without being game-breaking for others.  It would require extra attention on Bioware's part to make sure that incineration vs. overload isn't an always-obvious choice, but they could probably handle that.

[thepimpto]

I posted this in the ME3 wishlist, but I think it will benefit the discussion more here.

ARMOR MODIFICATION

This simply needs more. More base armors that are modifiable. More modifications to the armors. More benefit to the modifications. Bring back class restricted armors. That will widen the equipment and also bring back more defining class play styles.

Integrate a more fluid loot system. Unlike the first game do not have enemies drop common, uncommon, rare items after each kill. Simply have unique characters that carry unique loot that the player must A) pry for their cold dead corpse or be given as a gift.

Example: Mission has the player storming a Merc base. The Merc Leader has an armor mod that I A) could have purchased found or C) otherwise don’t have. Upon killing Merc Leader and examining the corpse if A or B, it becomes credits if C I now possess the mod.

I would also like Omni-tool and Biotic Amps back with different makes and models along with different modifications to customize them. (See below)

WEAPONS CUSTOMIZATION

Follow the ME2 precedent of armor modification and apply it to weaponry. Start with a variety of stock weapons, makes and models (pistol, assault rifle, SMG, sniper rifle, shotgun) each with their own varying levels of customization (Accuracy, Rate of Fire, Damage, Shot before Overheat/Ammo per clip).

Example: A Hahne-Kedar Kessler pistol could add an upgrade to the heat sink to allow more shots before overheating or the need to change thermal clips as well as a calibration to improve rate of fire.

Where as a Kassa Fabrication Razer pistol could benefit from an improved targeting reticle for higher accuracy and high caliber barrel for more damage.

Bringing back the manufacturers can also limit the modifications as only the manufacturers’ upgrade can be applied to the individual manufacturer’s weaponry. Perhaps there could also be universal mods that are less effective than the manufacturers’; cheap knock-offs if you will. Also certain modifications should have ramifications as well their benefits like certain mods in ME1 sacrificing one stat for another.

A system like this promotes weapon balance. The stock gun for each category of proficiency (Damage, Rate of Fire, etc.) would truly only excel in it’s own category, thus not making any gun overall better than another, but rather giving it its own true strength. This allow a greater range of play types, slower firing heavy hitters, rapid-fire guns doing small bursts of damage, or a steady medium.

Ammunition should also return to being an interchangeable mod.

Overall weapons upgrades can still be obtainable. In ME2 upgrading a weapon type gave you a new model number for your current gun. It’s the same principle here. Advancing your current weapon to the latest or higher end model of the same gun.

Example: The player would start with the Kessler I but through either purchase or looting of the “general weapon upgrade” the Kessler I to the Kessler II. An marginal increase in the weapon’s base stats which can be further upgraded through Mods.

Biotic Amps and Omni-tools could be applied the same way with three basic categories (Duration, Power, and Cool Down) with modifiable processors, and user interfaces.

HYBRID HEATSINK

This is a simple fix. Keep the ammo system, but allow the thermal clips to accumulate and dissipate heat. This would cut down the need for ammo as long as a player maintained a stable weapon temperature.

COMBAT

A return to a health bar would be nice along with squad health and shields visible. Medi-gel that heals wounds not bring people back from the dead. (Who would have thought I had the Lazarus Project in a first aid kit) This is one of the things I feel ME1 did completely better than ME2.

Replenish my Medi-gel in the infirmary and Power cells in the armory. I’m on a warship I shouldn’t have to scout mercenary bunkers and cityscapes for standard supplies.

Individual cool down times. The global cool down was step backwards. Yes, I liked the shorter cool down times, but it hinders the ability to pull your own combos thus making you party dependent on powers. I have played as a Sentinel since ME1; I would send in my tanks and play the support role. This could not be done in ME2, at least not to the extent as in the first game, and much of it derides from the global cool down.

Do not make a cover dependent ME3. Make cover a luxury not a necessity. This heavily coincides with going back to the health bar system. I would also like the ability to crouch back, and perhaps take that one step further and let me into the prone position. (Hello SOCOM)

LEVELING SYSTEM

Get rid of Progressive talent costs. One point per bar means no more wasted skill points at max level.

One of the few things I actually liked about the ME2 leveling system was the specialization of the powers however I feel this is best left to Shepard’s and NPC’s passive class talents trees. In any case talent specialization for all skills in progressive ways could become a larger aspect of customizing the player’s character, play style, and complete game experience.

A return to something more along the lines of the ME talent tree is advisable, however perhaps not to its full twelve bar extent.

Example:

Overload: [] [] [] [Specialization1*] [] [] [] [Specialization2*]

Specialization1 would be a choice like in ME2 (Damage or Area of Effect) where as Specialization2 would further expand Specialization1. In the case of damage a player could get an Overload bomb that would drain the target’s shield and send out a concussive blast knocking down enemies within a certain radius or for AoE an overload chain connecting to nearby enemies akin to master force lightning in KotOR.

Something along those lines expands the current system yet keeping it streamlined. However, I would like to see more range and variety in talents giving more depth to character classes. Soldiers got the worst of this, but each class has its own lack of depth. All classes became equal with none better or worse at handling any facet of the game except perhaps difficulty level. The only things that truly separated the classes were class specific bonus powers and weapons available.

-Cryo became the Tech version of Bastion stasis from ME1
-Incinerate is not to far off form the tech version of Warp
-Ammo copying real talents and replacing them

The only unique techs besides class powers were AI Hacking and that wasn’t too useful this game and Overload. And of course...well biotics are biotics.

The only truly uniquely defined class was the Adept because their lack of balanced powers, but I will not get into the radically toned down usefulness of biotic powers other than Warp (Hardcore and Insanity), because that has been addressed enough and the developers got the message. However I will address certain powers should be just as effective regardless of armor and shields.

I do not like Ammo as a talent gameplay-wise, nor from a story stand point do I find it logical, but ME2 Soldiers would not work with out it. Now to address this for ME3 a few of the class specific powers could work for the Soldier (Adrenaline Rush, Charge, Tech Shield but more along the lines of Shield Boost in ME1, Incendiary Grenade, Fortification) would work better as Soldier talents with ammo being a mod.



STORY AND PRESENTATION

On a renegade playthrough I found ignoring paragon interrupts did not leave me with a renegade option or outcome and I missed out on free Paragon points, and game footage, if I wanted to play somewhat neutral. Same could be said going the other way. Perhaps that’s why they are interrupts, however in the future I would like to see more two-way resolutions.

Load screens and Mission Complete screens really make me miss elevators. Hidden load screens (Elevators) kept me ingame with my character and had it play like one complete story. ME2's load screens and mission complete screens made the game feel episodic.

An option to turn off tutorials would be another nice addition. I do not need the Cerberus logo popping up every thirty seconds telling me to use an ammo power or launch a probe.

I know voice acting is big and expensive, but wider interaction between the team would be a plus. I miss full team debriefings in ME1, asking opinions on the last mission, and party banter. I do need more team members, but team members with more substance.

Develop an in game economy. Buy, Sell, Trade. Minerals, weapons, cargo. Or give a recurring job (running slaves or red sand, taking mercenary contracts, be a special guest minister at someone’s wedding at the Shepard Memorial on Elysium) every once and a while to make a significant amount of creds.

I would like to see more layered missions like the suicide mission. Part one - cutscene - Part 2 - concluding cutscene.

[yuncas]

thepimpto wrote...

I posted this in the ME3 wishlist, but I think it will benefit the discussion more here.

ARMOR MODIFICATION

This simply needs more. More base armors that are modifiable. More modifications to the armors. More benefit to the modifications. Bring back class restricted armors. That will widen the equipment and also bring back more defining class play styles.

Integrate a more fluid loot system. Unlike the first game do not have enemies drop common, uncommon, rare items after each kill. Simply have unique characters that carry unique loot that the player must A) pry for their cold dead corpse or be given as a gift.

Example: Mission has the player storming a Merc base. The Merc Leader has an armor mod that I A) could have purchased found or C) otherwise don’t have. Upon killing Merc Leader and examining the corpse if A or B, it becomes credits if C I now possess the mod.

I would also like Omni-tool and Biotic Amps back with different makes and models along with different modifications to customize them. (See below)

WEAPONS CUSTOMIZATION

Follow the ME2 precedent of armor modification and apply it to weaponry. Start with a variety of stock weapons, makes and models (pistol, assault rifle, SMG, sniper rifle, shotgun) each with their own varying levels of customization (Accuracy, Rate of Fire, Damage, Shot before Overheat/Ammo per clip).

Example: A Hahne-Kedar Kessler pistol could add an upgrade to the heat sink to allow more shots before overheating or the need to change thermal clips as well as a calibration to improve rate of fire.

Where as a Kassa Fabrication Razer pistol could benefit from an improved targeting reticle for higher accuracy and high caliber barrel for more damage.

Bringing back the manufacturers can also limit the modifications as only the manufacturers’ upgrade can be applied to the individual manufacturer’s weaponry. Perhaps there could also be universal mods that are less effective than the manufacturers’; cheap knock-offs if you will. Also certain modifications should have ramifications as well their benefits like certain mods in ME1 sacrificing one stat for another.

A system like this promotes weapon balance. The stock gun for each category of proficiency (Damage, Rate of Fire, etc.) would truly only excel in it’s own category, thus not making any gun overall better than another, but rather giving it its own true strength. This allow a greater range of play types, slower firing heavy hitters, rapid-fire guns doing small bursts of damage, or a steady medium.

Ammunition should also return to being an interchangeable mod.

Overall weapons upgrades can still be obtainable. In ME2 upgrading a weapon type gave you a new model number for your current gun. It’s the same principle here. Advancing your current weapon to the latest or higher end model of the same gun.

Example: The player would start with the Kessler I but through either purchase or looting of the “general weapon upgrade” the Kessler I to the Kessler II. An marginal increase in the weapon’s base stats which can be further upgraded through Mods.

Biotic Amps and Omni-tools could be applied the same way with three basic categories (Duration, Power, and Cool Down) with modifiable processors, and user interfaces.

HYBRID HEATSINK

This is a simple fix. Keep the ammo system, but allow the thermal clips to accumulate and dissipate heat. This would cut down the need for ammo as long as a player maintained a stable weapon temperature.

COMBAT

A return to a health bar would be nice along with squad health and shields visible. Medi-gel that heals wounds not bring people back from the dead. (Who would have thought I had the Lazarus Project in a first aid kit) This is one of the things I feel ME1 did completely better than ME2.

Replenish my Medi-gel in the infirmary and Power cells in the armory. I’m on a warship I shouldn’t have to scout mercenary bunkers and cityscapes for standard supplies.

Individual cool down times. The global cool down was step backwards. Yes, I liked the shorter cool down times, but it hinders the ability to pull your own combos thus making you party dependent on powers. I have played as a Sentinel since ME1; I would send in my tanks and play the support role. This could not be done in ME2, at least not to the extent as in the first game, and much of it derides from the global cool down.

Do not make a cover dependent ME3. Make cover a luxury not a necessity. This heavily coincides with going back to the health bar system. I would also like the ability to crouch back, and perhaps take that one step further and let me into the prone position. (Hello SOCOM)

LEVELING SYSTEM

Get rid of Progressive talent costs. One point per bar means no more wasted skill points at max level.

One of the few things I actually liked about the ME2 leveling system was the specialization of the powers however I feel this is best left to Shepard’s and NPC’s passive class talents trees. In any case talent specialization for all skills in progressive ways could become a larger aspect of customizing the player’s character, play style, and complete game experience.

A return to something more along the lines of the ME talent tree is advisable, however perhaps not to its full twelve bar extent.

Example:

Overload: [] [] [] [Specialization1*] [] [] [] [Specialization2*]

Specialization1 would be a choice like in ME2 (Damage or Area of Effect) where as Specialization2 would further expand Specialization1. In the case of damage a player could get an Overload bomb that would drain the target’s shield and send out a concussive blast knocking down enemies within a certain radius or for AoE an overload chain connecting to nearby enemies akin to master force lightning in KotOR.

Something along those lines expands the current system yet keeping it streamlined. However, I would like to see more range and variety in talents giving more depth to character classes. Soldiers got the worst of this, but each class has its own lack of depth. All classes became equal with none better or worse at handling any facet of the game except perhaps difficulty level. The only things that truly separated the classes were class specific bonus powers and weapons available.

-Cryo became the Tech version of Bastion stasis from ME1
-Incinerate is not to far off form the tech version of Warp
-Ammo copying real talents and replacing them

The only unique techs besides class powers were AI Hacking and that wasn’t too useful this game and Overload. And of course...well biotics are biotics.

The only truly uniquely defined class was the Adept because their lack of balanced powers, but I will not get into the radically toned down usefulness of biotic powers other than Warp (Hardcore and Insanity), because that has been addressed enough and the developers got the message. However I will address certain powers should be just as effective regardless of armor and shields.

I do not like Ammo as a talent gameplay-wise, nor from a story stand point do I find it logical, but ME2 Soldiers would not work with out it. Now to address this for ME3 a few of the class specific powers could work for the Soldier (Adrenaline Rush, Charge, Tech Shield but more along the lines of Shield Boost in ME1, Incendiary Grenade, Fortification) would work better as Soldier talents with ammo being a mod.



STORY AND PRESENTATION

On a renegade playthrough I found ignoring paragon interrupts did not leave me with a renegade option or outcome and I missed out on free Paragon points, and game footage, if I wanted to play somewhat neutral. Same could be said going the other way. Perhaps that’s why they are interrupts, however in the future I would like to see more two-way resolutions.

Load screens and Mission Complete screens really make me miss elevators. Hidden load screens (Elevators) kept me ingame with my character and had it play like one complete story. ME2's load screens and mission complete screens made the game feel episodic.

An option to turn off tutorials would be another nice addition. I do not need the Cerberus logo popping up every thirty seconds telling me to use an ammo power or launch a probe.

I know voice acting is big and expensive, but wider interaction between the team would be a plus. I miss full team debriefings in ME1, asking opinions on the last mission, and party banter. I do need more team members, but team members with more substance.

Develop an in game economy. Buy, Sell, Trade. Minerals, weapons, cargo. Or give a recurring job (running slaves or red sand, taking mercenary contracts, be a special guest minister at someone’s wedding at the Shepard Memorial on Elysium) every once and a while to make a significant amount of creds.

I would like to see more layered missions like the suicide mission. Part one - cutscene - Part 2 - concluding cutscene.

I agree with all your points especially class restricted armor, health regeneration, and crouching. With the armor system would you have an armor rating for individual suits or not?( I am in favor of an armor rating)

[Soruyao]

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

Assuming that guns are as cheap as potato chips and that we weren't in the lawless terminus systems dealing with gangs that would not always be able to keep up to the second on every technological innovation, I'd certainly buy that. You would expect many of them to still be using the old models, even a few years after their higher tech peers upgraded though.

Regardless, like I said, I don't consider it hard to just ignore the inconsistencies myself. I'm actually not a stickler at all for that kind of fictional accuracy. In fact, I didn't even really notice the logical inconsistencies myself until someone else pointed it out to me, which should show how well Bioware really did pull me in to the world they created.

All I'm trying to make a point of is that it would have been a lot easier for Bioware to have simply retconned it than to justify it through in game explanations. But then, I suppose one of the reasons I do value Bioware as a company is that they do put a ton of work in to their IPs and are not as willing as some might be to alter their lore without an in universe justification.

Maybe someone discovered a way to make an omni-tool informational upgrade that makes the omni-tool emit a signal which acts like sabotague on all old model weaponry.  (This isnt' a huge leap of faith, because it was pathetically easy for a tech focused player to shut down every enemy's gun in the area.) Everyone who didn't upgrade technologically would eventually fight someone who had upgraded and their guns would shut down and they would lose/die.   You have this technology, so nobody would be stupid enough to use the old model of gun, because it wouldn't work on anyone.   This explains both the absence of sabotague and the addition of ammo at the same time!

I would agree that it would be -easier- to simply retcon the universe, and this is the route that they chose, but I think that it is definitely possible to fill all the cracks with technobabble in such a way that the universe still feels complete and whole.  (Unless you look at it SUPER closely. :3)

Frotality wrote...

soryao,

your GCD idea seems a very good way to allow combo attacks but keep it balanced, i like it.

but
on thermal clips, i have to majorly disagree on the sniper bit; my
prime issue with it is that I cant use a sniper all the time, or much
at all. consider this: ive done a bit of experimenting (not much, but
enough) and have found that you can max out the ammo of an AR in 3-4
clips if you have no bullets left; but of course, since a thermal clip
only restores 1 sniper shot, it takes 10 clips to max out your basic
sniper, while fundamentally all weapons should have balanced ammo
limits and yield from clips.

now of course this is a problem
with the balance of the current system, not the ammo system itself. im
not saying it cant work, and im not saying i cant enjoy games with an
ammo system, but i do believe it doesnt belong in the ME series,
especially with the hybrid idea propsed. i'll explain my personal
preference for the hybrid system.

the ammo system imposes the
wrong kind of limitations for the tactical challenge tps/rpgs should
aim for; namely a one sided limitation. it offers punishment for
misplaced shots, but no reward for well-placed ones; and for stingy
players like me, this means waiting for powers to be back up is almost
always preferential to shooting, even on higher difficulties. because
there is a wealth of other numerically unlimited (powers, teammate
fire) or strategically balanced (heavy weapons) offensive options, such
limits dont make sense in ME. also its another instance of an
immersion-breaking combat element that only the player is subject to
(the only one in the squad wearing armor or sealed suits is another,
making shepard unique in so many story irrelevant ways seperates him
from the world as well as the player. a big part of immersion that alot
of rpgs have is the similarity in combat options between enemy and
player; in Final fantasy lets say, enemies attack thru the same system
as you, they have similar abilities and limits, and overall make the
battle feel like a battle of 2 creatures from the same world, and not
super-soldier versus 3-sweet-spot-hits-and-your-dead final boss).

but
a hybrid system fixes all that. it is still limited, it keeps the
tension of wasting bullets, and it keeps with the lore, as well as
immersing the player more because they know the enemy is using the same
tech, not magically unlimited weapons that shepard never gets, and best
of all, conservative players arent punished with the fear of there
never being enough ammo, because the system rewards our playstyle
appropriately. since all weapons would have proper heat-building
ratios, they would have the same max clips, and would feel alot more
balanced because of it.

bioware apparently had problems getting
a hybrid system to work; by i would really love for them to try as hard
as possible to make it work properly; it would sastisfy the best of
both worlds i think.

Would not your problem with not being able to snipe enough be solved by having an optional omni-tool ability that uses a GCD to create thermal clips when you need them the most?  This way, you can snipe almost constantly with the sacrifice of not being able to use as many other skills.   It also means that players who like the current system won't have to deal with a hybrid system that hasn't been tested and might be really not fun for anyone.  It also means that we don't have to retcon the way weapons work again, and the universe feels a little more solid.

Modifié par Soruyao, 14 février 2010 - 11:04 .

[xODD7BALLx]

Why was this stickied then unstickied? What because not enough people like reading? Some topics get alot of traffic that serve no purpose at all, a topic like this will have people that actually care about ME taking the time to read it and so on and so forth, this topic has more than enough merit to be stickied yet again.

[SurfaceBeneath]

Operative84 wrote...

Why was this stickied then unstickied? What because not enough people like reading? Some topics get alot of traffic that serve no purpose at all, a topic like this will have people that actually care about ME taking the time to read it and so on and so forth, this topic has more than enough merit to be stickied yet again.

There had been no discussion in the topic for several hours. The thread was stickied so that it could easily be referenced and used as a suggestion-type thread, however if there is no more discussion then there's no reason for it to be at the top of the page.

More than anything, it showed that Bioware is taking our constructive criticism seriously.