903 réponses à ce sujet

[Arijharn]

I really liked in this game though that you modified your weapons on the fly with cyro,disruptor, etc ammo but I don't think it should be a class power, more like just a decision.

[Racan]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

I do not ever, ever, never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, never, ever, never, never, ever, want to have to loot another enemy body. Ever. I typed all of those. No cut and paste.

QFT

[yuncas]

Scarecrow wrote

"The current armor upgrade system does a good job of adding all the individual upgrade possibilites from ME1 into the global ME2 upgrade tree. It really does make individual augment slots completely superfluous. If you actually look at all the upgrades you get in ME2 as you progress, there is actually no realistic way you could ever have the same combination in the ME1 system. ME2 basically gives you every armor upgrade, from shield boosts, greater health regeneration, toxin resistance, damage resistance, biotic and tech resistance... everything. In this way, the ME2 system is far more generous than any individual augmentation system could be. For that reason, I'd ask players to be very careful in wishing for a return to armor augmentation, as you'd be greatly weakening yourself if that were to happen."

I think you have just stated cleary what I've been thinking. The ME2 system was generous, in my opinion too generous. The global upgrade system felt to me as if it took away a large part of the thought that went into making a class your own. The choices of how to play felt whittled down. If I preffered to be a killing machine wading through opposition with sheer force of arms and toughness I could. I could also hang back and support my squad by hacking A.I. enemies, destroying opponents sheids, and rendering their weapons and tech/biotic powers useless if I chose to. And yes you can do this In ME2 the experience felt watered down, generalized, streamlined if you prefer.

The classes at the same time felt less distinct from one another and more so I suppose because of the almost gimmicky class powers. I don't intend that last part as a dig against BW, I am simply at a loss to find a more fitting description. My opinion of the classes being less distinct comes from the lack of armor classes and the ability to use weapon classes that mostly overlap each other if not in form than in function.    

[Garuda One]

Bump for justice.

[Kosmiker]

I've made a thread with this suggestion but maybe I should post it here instead. I think it goes along with some of what has been posted so far.



---------------------------



Hello everyone!



Despite the fact that I did enjoyed the new inventory in ME2 i think however that a lot of room for improovement has been left.



Because the upgrades panel in the research lab becomes almost unbearable to read/follow after collecting all the upgrades I believe there should be a filter (like the one seen in ME1 inventory) to ease the pain of finding what upgrades we have.



But then again, why not mixing that upgrade info to the guns as well? And since we're on that course... why not make some customization for each gun with those same upgrades? And why not making good use of all the resources you that you currently have but there isn't any way of spending them?



Below you'll find an illustration of what I'm suggesting and would love to see something similar in ME3 (or even ME2 if it were possible).









So here's how it works:



1. The upgrades researched at the lab do not give you instant bonus to the guns, they just unlock further levels. Imagine you have researched only 2 out of 4 upgrades for Damage. You can upgrade the weapon to level 2 on the damage field (by spending resources like Iridium).



2. You have a filter (the one that looks like ME1 inventory filter) for you to easily pick up what type of gear you're upgrading.



3. Once you upgrade some type of gear, for example a sniper rifle, that sniper rifle will be upgraded to all squadmates.



4. The powers I listed on this example are just to fit as example, thereby i listed the ammo powers but could be something else like Refire Rate.

[RBradley872003]

Sorry, couldn't even finish half of the OP. I don't think 'long' is the word you're looking for. It's wordy and pretentious. Seriously, you aren't writing an essay. If you'd like anyone to actually read this nonsense try writing like you aren't a freshman english major.

[yuncas]

rbradley go home.

[Scarecrow_ES]

Well, I think with my scanning concept, Kaplain, even though you might actually spend very comparable amounts of time spanning and managing resources in my system as you would in ME2, I think breaking up the process into a series of different mini-games, as I have, making resource management a sort of game unto itself, and actually adding additional strategy and uses for attained minerals, will go a long way toward making those many hours spent getting those minerals a lot more fun. OR, at the very least, not the tedious chore that the ME2 experience tends to be. The more I think about it, the happier I am with the system I came up with.



Should I add the new planet scanning proposal to the main page, do ya think?

[Scarecrow_ES]

It's ok, Yuncas... Bradley has a right to his opinion, of course, and it's not my aim to squash anyone's right to express his opinion.



Having said that, Bradley, I cannot understand in the least how anyone could list the proper use of language as an insult. I do see that this is a forum, so perhaps you are used to something more akin to texting-speech, which I can only assume means you'd have preferred more "LULZ," "SUXORZ," and the like. I had stated right away in the original post that the proposals would be a long read. The length of the topic was not my choice, but was necessatated by the decision of the moderation staff to limit the number of proposal threads I could post. Had they not done so, I can assure you that the individual proposals would be more "bite size" and easier to get through.



Now, I stated that due to the length of the proposals, getting through them would take some effort, but would be a worthwhile read in the end. Given the overwhelmingly positive support for this thread from the community, and a sheer lack of flame or troll responses, I'd think my insistance on a quality read was apropos. Further, perhaps the great length of the read makes it too imposing for forum dwellers such as yourself, ensuring only those who want to contribute to an intelligent conversation will get through the proposals and desire to post. In that way, you could say this discussion is a bit "classier" than your usual forum fare.



So yeah... insulting my use of grammar, proper sentence structure, and varied vocabulary while presenting a topic which is clear, concise, and full of detail is... well... "teh lamez."

[danien.grey]

Great suggestions.  I actually agree with a lot of them and you are very clear with your recommendations.  Bravo.

Modifié par danien.grey, 17 février 2010 - 09:09 .

[Scarecrow_ES]

Ok... I've gone ahead and updated the Original Post. The new topic header now includes my proposal for revamping the planet scanning system. I've also done some reformatting, incorporating an abridged table of contents with brief descriptions of the individual proposals and tags for easier navigation to the proposal headers. It took awhile to get the formatting to work, but I think that even though the topic is now about 20% longer than it was, it is slightly easier to get around.

[Tankfriend]

I guess "wow" is the only appropriate thing I can come up with about this thread for now. I am really trying hard to find anything useful to add but so far every single idea I had for improving ME either is present already or vastly improved on in the thread.
Definitely worthy of a permanent sticky in my book, to say the least.

[Scarecrow_ES]

Thanks, Tank, for the support. I'm not sure this topic will ever get stickied again as long as the Wishlist topic stays stickied, though.



There are so many interesting ideas being thrown around the topic here that aren't so much modifications of the existing systems, but whole new systems. I want very much to weigh in on some of these ideas and to interject some of my own, but then I'd be going off-topic in my own thread. Ah, oh well. It's good to see the community is capable of having a real discussion though, isn't it?

[kalpain]

Scarecrow_ES wrote...

Ok... I've gone ahead and updated the Original Post. The new topic header now includes my proposal for revamping the planet scanning system. I've also done some reformatting, incorporating an abridged table of contents with brief descriptions of the individual proposals and tags for easier navigation to the proposal headers. It took awhile to get the formatting to work, but I think that even though the topic is now about 20% longer than it was, it is slightly easier to get around.

I wasn't able to get back to the forum before you did but yes I do agree.  One of the things I remember from your suggestion (forgive me I will reread it again) was that part of it involved some character interactions in order to collect minerals if you chose to do it that way.  Correct me if I am mistaken but I think that would go a long way towards making it less tedious.  Considering one of my proposals is being able to have more interactions with NPCs.  If I could consistently interaction with individuals or a group to collect minerals or earn credits I would truly enjoy the process more.  Even if it is only a negotiation or some mini-game scavenger mission (e.g. taking out a pirate base and splitting half the resources with an interested party).  At least that should be an option if you want to play the game that way.

My lack of upgrades came back to bite me in the ass last night as I played through the Horizon mission with my Vanguard.  Though my biggest mistake was using the "black hole gun" instead of the collector particle beam (I know, I know what the hell was I thinking).  But it made me realize just how important upgrading is to your survival.  So tonight I will be planet scanning.  I need better armor, shields, weapons... everything if I am going to keep my Vanguard alive to the end...

[glacier1701]

 Planet Scanning

You proposal of adding in mingames to the process does, in my opinion, seem counterprodutive to what most players would want to see. It adds in a layer of complexity that does not exist coupled with the chance that the minigames themselves would become tedious and boring. The current ME2 system is definetly a good working model in so far as it is fine to do the first few times but after that it becomes the tedium that most of us dislike.

What I would suggest is that rather than add in minigames the process, after a set time, becomes an automated one. That is (if it were in ME2) EDI takes over the process of scanning and produces a report on minerals with the cost of extraction. There are sliders to adjust so that if we already have a load of platinum but need iridium we can tell EDI to not get the platinum and just concentrate on the iridium. The timing of getting this new scanning upgrade can be be brought in a few ways.
 
(a) It could be based on time spent scanning or when a certain quantity of minerals have been mined after which EDI herself brings up the subject of the new scanning process and what she would need to be able to do it. 
( It could be an upgrade found in a mineral/refinery plant as a mission. To avoid it being something found late in the game EDI can always state that she found reference to it on the extranet after you spend a short time doing it the manual way. In essense this becomes another mission but one that can be more of either an espionage style one OR of diplomacy in getting the plans to 'test'.

The issue that now crops up IF you go to a more automated process after a time is that there is less 'content' in the game since now it is shorter. Not sure how you could remedy that since the budget is still fixed and would need to be increased to add in extra content. I suppose the question becomes one of removing an annoyance that no-one is fond of versus what is gained in the overal experience of the game.

[kalpain]

I think I might have miss read Scarecrow's planet scanning ideas the first time. I really thought that it mentioned being able to get someone to do it for you (outside of the mining crew). Having read it again it does seem more involved. But I like the idea of being able to say, "go mine this planet for resources" and then over time those resources grow.

Glacier makes a good point. Considering that scanning in the first game consisted of a button push it makes sense that EDI could just do it for you and be faster and more efficient. Some where in this forum is a joke thread that makes fun of that in a conversation between Shepard and EDI. She could do it in .034 seconds but Shepard refuses cause he would rather spend the 20 minutes to do it manually. Joker then cheers for human efficiency, or something. While funny it makes for boring game play.

If it has to be some type of mini-game thing I would much rather it be a continual side mission type thing. Something that makes you interact with NPCs either through trading (resources for credits and vice versa) using paragon\\renegade negotiations or helping a mining company with pirates or mercenaries. Which, to me, would be no different than the current side missions in the game already. Some were easier or more difficult than others. Most were optional and didn’t detract from the game play experience at all. A good example would be the Zaeed loyalty mission. Maybe after helping the refinery workers they offer to pay you in resources and if you continue to assist them with any potential pirate\\mercenary problems they continue to do so. If you don’t save them then maybe you get a huge pay out of what they might have already mined or refined or what ever.

In a perfect world I envision some combination of all of these. A faster more streamlined scanning system, negotiating trades (similar to the side missions where you traveled around picking up\\delivering things but interacting with more characters to do so) & something that allows a more aggressive approach. Assisting corporations that mine with their pirate\\merc problems for a cut of the resources or becoming the guy that pirates from the pirates (Shepard can be a Renegade after all). I think this might go a long way toward extending the game play as it could be something you have the option of doing throughout the game. Not just a fixed number of times. Then you wouldn’t have to worry about running out of credits as you always have a continual flow of resources and credits as you purchase\\sell\\trade\\take with in the game. Cause ultimately, to me, it’s all about having options. Just more of my 2 cents…

[Scarecrow_ES]

Well, in the first game, even though the actual process of placing your marker on a mineral location was just a series of 5 button presses in the correct order, actually FINDING those mineral deposits in the first place was more time consuming than in ME2, and for far less practical reward (cash only that increased with player level). Certainly EDI, with all her emmense powers, could do planet scanning and mineral recovery far more quickly and efficiently than Shepard could. But the same could be said for virtually everything that Shepard has to do aboard the ship. If we suddenly gave over all our "chores" to EDI, or some other behind the scenes system, rather than doing them ourselves, much of the basic gameplay is going to disappear just as soon as players can work up the credits.



No, as good as it might sound on paper to allow the player to skip certain aspects of gameplay, it ends up lessening the overall experience. After all, the player still has to interact with a faulty system until he can free himself of it. What kind of message is that for a developer to send to his players?



"Hey, we're sorry this big part of our game sucks balls and is actually somewhat painful to play, but... here... now if you pay enough credits you can actually skip the not fun parts. Of course, your game is now even shorter than it would have been if you'd just stuck it out."



No, if the resource system is to remain a vital part of the gameplay, for upgrades and whatnot, the only real solution is to make it fun enough that players will not mind, or even enjoy working with it. Breaking up the monotony of scanning with other gameplay features (the chemistry mini-game I suggested, for instance), and expanding the role of resource management to beyond the scan/probe mechanic would do a lot to make this part of the game more interesting.



Having the economic component, like both I and Kaplain have suggested (though in different respects), adds that other small dimension of strategy. It might make sense to have to discover a side-mission related to some sort of "mining guild" that could provide you with myriad incentives to continue scanning beyond the basic resource need, and give you optional interactions and storylines. I see no reason why these types of ideas can't be worked in there with my system to ad more life to the improved gameplay I suggested.

[RBradley872003]

"The above system insures that there are enough weapons in a class to provide variety, but also that each weapon has a unique personality which may appeal to different users. This eliminates the need to have many variations of the same weapon class, but also allows for 2 weapons within a category to behave differently enough that this difference can be noticeable to the user - ultimately the few weapons will feel like many. Also, rather than finding these weapons on missions (thus ensuring a user does not have access to the weapon he may like until the story says he can be, or missing out on a weapon or item permanently if he doesn’t immediately find it in a mission), new weapons should be available to receive when the user chooses, either through shops, research, licenses, or whatever system seems best. Keeping the current Mass Effect 2 upgrade system (without one-time, missable mission pick-ups) allows all weapons in a category to grow as the user does."

I'm sorry, what about this is exactly concise? Maybe you need to look the word up. At this point I really am just being a troll, but you're so pedantic that I just can't help myself. Again, you don't need to write an essay about the versatility of heavy weapons, just say what you think could be changed and why. If I were a dev I wouldn't want to spend 15 minutes reading through all of the op when it could be summarized in a dozen or so bullet points.

[RBradley872003]

Err I'm sorry, that is to say that I myself, being a reader of this post, were I to (in my above mentioned role) imagine myself as a creative developer of the game Mass Effect 2, whilst reading the post in which this current discussion is taking place - that is to say Scarecrow's Compendium of Proposals to BioWare for Mass Effect Gamplay Improvements - I might in fact find it preferable to consume copious amounts of human (and or animal, for that matter) excretions rather than subject myself to the unnecessarily wordy and bombastic sentence structure found in said discussion - that is to say Scarecrow's Compendium of Proposals to Bioware for Mass Effect Gameplay Improvements.

[Tankfriend]

Scarecrow_ES wrote...
But the same could be said for virtually everything that Shepard has to do aboard the ship. If we suddenly gave over all our "chores" to EDI, or some other behind the scenes system, rather than doing them ourselves, much of the basic gameplay is going to disappear just as soon as players can work up the credits.

A little reminder to support this point: That is exactly what happened in ME1. As soon as there was enough omni-gel around (there is more than enough loot flying around to recycle) the mini games were completely superfluous because everyone just bypassed them.
Still, I think that glacier1701 has a point - you can put as much variety and complexity into them as you want but they will at one point become uninteresting and tedious to all players of the game, there just is no way around that specific problem. I think that is the point where one can safely conclude that ressource gathering should not be dependent on mini games alone - we need several alternatives.

So what I would propose for methods of getting ressources (ideally a combination of all of them):
a) Mini games. We already have them and if they are improved in terms of variety and complexity as was mentioned before, I cannot see any reason why they should be removed entirely. I think the additional ideas so far seem to be quite interesting (e.g. the "what ressources are there?"-mini game) but I would split this general category into an "active" and a "passive" part.
- "passive" would be the idea presented before: Do all the mini games and set up a small mining operation (possibly related to a sidequest you have to do first) that will then regularly supply you with ressources until the site in question is exhausted.
- "active" would be a combination of the added mini games to find out about ressources and the conventional system as we have it in ME2 (point - probe - collect). Basically, it would be designed for people to quickly gather small amounts of ressources for a very low price to get just enough for their next upgrade. Naturally, this would be everything but the main income source for most people.

 Trade. That is something many people already want to see for ME2 in a patch or DLC. It should not be too difficult to integrate a trade system for ressources that we can use to exchange credits for ressources and vice versa. It has to be carefully balanced so as to not outperform every other method of ressource gathering, though. That said, it should be the quickest and most direct but also by far the most expensive source for ressources.
As we are not playing a trade simulation, this system should remain rudimentary: One price per good everywhere that does not change throughout the game (unless tied to quests that have a serious impact on the galactic economy).

c) Sidequests. If designed well, they can add a lot of fun and variety to the game. I especially like the mentioned idea of working for a mining/refining corporation to earn ressources. Apart from that, it could also be a requisite for setting up mining operations and/or increasing their production rate. As a side note: This would also be a viable means of acquiring new technologies for research if working for a research lab or similar institution.

d) "Side Effect" of Main Quests. Some parts of the main quest line might offer some ressource income, either as a large one-time bonus or as another "mining operation"-like income over time.

e) Collecting random ressources. Basically what we have in ME2 already: Collecting ressource containers of various sizes throughout the game.

Modifié par Tankfriend, 18 février 2010 - 08:18 .

[Nokterne]

Original post is a great read.

[Scarecrow_ES]

Part of my proposal for modifying the planet scanning system includes a system for exchanging minerals or mineral rights for credits or other minerals. If a player, for instance, simply wants to scan a planet, find the deposits, and then immediately sell the rights to that deposit for cash, then turn around and buy the types of minerals he wants... my system allows him to do that. Also, if he just wants to enter into the resource management computer system or head to the "guild shops" and pay straight cast for minerals, he could do that too. In this way, I suppose, he need never have to manage his resources through mining. That offers the kind of "buyout" scenario you're looking for.



Oh, and just a note for Bradley... in the passage you quoted, alone, there is so much information in so little space, I defy you to convey it all in a more brief manner. Just saying. And developers have already stated that 2-line posts whining about game content does them no good. They need to know what exactly about a given system doesn't work... not simply that people don't like it, but why. And not simply what can be done to fix it, but WHY such a fix would be preferrable. To not include ALL of that information does a developer no good whatsoever.

[Mal_Luck]

I think I want to have your babies.

[kalpain]

Tankfriend wrote...

Scarecrow_ES wrote...
But the same could be said for virtually everything that Shepard has to do aboard the ship. If we suddenly gave over all our "chores" to EDI, or some other behind the scenes system, rather than doing them ourselves, much of the basic gameplay is going to disappear just as soon as players can work up the credits.

A little reminder to support this point: That is exactly what happened in ME1. As soon as there was enough omni-gel around (there is more than enough loot flying around to recycle) the mini games were completely superfluous because everyone just bypassed them.
Still, I think that glacier1701 has a point - you can put as much variety and complexity into them as you want but they will at one point become uninteresting and tedious to all players of the game, there just is no way around that specific problem. I think that is the point where one can safely conclude that ressource gathering should not be dependent on mini games alone - we need several alternatives.

So what I would propose for methods of getting ressources (ideally a combination of all of them):
a) Mini games. We already have them and if they are improved in terms of variety and complexity as was mentioned before, I cannot see any reason why they should be removed entirely. I think the additional ideas so far seem to be quite interesting (e.g. the "what ressources are there?"-mini game) but I would split this general category into an "active" and a "passive" part.
- "passive" would be the idea presented before: Do all the mini games and set up a small mining operation (possibly related to a sidequest you have to do first) that will then regularly supply you with ressources until the site in question is exhausted.
- "active" would be a combination of the added mini games to find out about ressources and the conventional system as we have it in ME2 (point - probe - collect). Basically, it would be designed for people to quickly gather small amounts of ressources for a very low price to get just enough for their next upgrade. Naturally, this would be everything but the main income source for most people.

 Trade. That is something many people already want to see for ME2 in a patch or DLC. It should not be too difficult to integrate a trade system for ressources that we can use to exchange credits for ressources and vice versa. It has to be carefully balanced so as to not outperform every other method of ressource gathering, though. That said, it should be the quickest and most direct but also by far the most expensive source for ressources.
As we are not playing a trade simulation, this system should remain rudimentary: One price per good everywhere that does not change throughout the game (unless tied to quests that have a serious impact on the galactic economy).

c) Sidequests. If designed well, they can add a lot of fun and variety to the game. I especially like the mentioned idea of working for a mining/refining corporation to earn ressources. Apart from that, it could also be a requisite for setting up mining operations and/or increasing their production rate. As a side note: This would also be a viable means of acquiring new technologies for research if working for a research lab or similar institution.

d) "Side Effect" of Main Quests. Some parts of the main quest line might offer some ressource income, either as a large one-time bonus or as another "mining operation"-like income over time.

e) Collecting random ressources. Basically what we have in ME2 already: Collecting ressource containers of various sizes throughout the game.

^This

All I want is variety.  Give me the option to do something I enjoy in game (even if its only just a little more than the thing I hate) to get something I need.  Rather than forcing me to only be able to do the thing I dread the most about the game to get the thing I need.  I think slow tedious minigames have become so ingrained in RPGs that we just accept that that has to be the way you earn money\\collect resources\\earn experience.  But usually even more traditional RPGs give you more options to gain these things.

[glacier1701]

 I understand your point about automating stuff so that in the end we have nothing to do. It is something that needs to be carefully looked at when proposing possible systems. Indeed that was the thought I always had with my suggestion. Yet in the end I feel that the advantage of getting it to an auto system (by whatever in game means) gives the players some sense of accomplishment. That would override the fact that in terms of game content there would be less but in this case it feels much better overall.

I also think that multiple paths in gathering resources will work as well. It might also be a better way in so far as each player can decide which way feels better for them. If they prefer to do it manually go for it. Do missions is better for them then again go for it. The current game system of rewards just doesnt cut it in terms of variety. Adding in that boost in minerals will help but it does need to be a substantial one - not just 5k or so more like 20k or 50k.

Anyways need to think a bit more on this.