903 réponses à ce sujet

[Scarecrow_ES]

Ok guys, I have to go on a work trip out of state over the weekend, and I'm not sure what my internet connectivity situation will be like in my hotel, so it's possible I might not be able to post over the next few days. Feel free to keep up the conversation without me

[-Skorpious-]

Kosmiker wrote...

I've made a thread with this suggestion but maybe I should post it here instead. I think it goes along with some of what has been posted so far.

---------------------------

Hello everyone!

Despite the fact that I did enjoyed the new inventory in ME2 i think however that a lot of room for improovement has been left.

Because the upgrades panel in the research lab becomes almost unbearable to read/follow after collecting all the upgrades I believe there should be a filter (like the one seen in ME1 inventory) to ease the pain of finding what upgrades we have.

But then again, why not mixing that upgrade info to the guns as well? And since we're on that course... why not make some customization for each gun with those same upgrades? And why not making good use of all the resources you that you currently have but there isn't any way of spending them?

Below you'll find an illustration of what I'm suggesting and would love to see something similar in ME3 (or even ME2 if it were possible).

*removed picture to save space*


So here's how it works:

1. The upgrades researched at the lab do not give you instant bonus to the guns, they just unlock further levels. Imagine you have researched only 2 out of 4 upgrades for Damage. You can upgrade the weapon to level 2 on the damage field (by spending resources like Iridium).

2. You have a filter (the one that looks like ME1 inventory filter) for you to easily pick up what type of gear you're upgrading.

3. Once you upgrade some type of gear, for example a sniper rifle, that sniper rifle will be upgraded to all squadmates.

4. The powers I listed on this example are just to fit as example, thereby i listed the ammo powers but could be something else like Refire Rate.

First off, I would like to say that I love your're concept of upgrading individual weapons. However, I believe it suffers from the same flaw that the ME:2 upgrade system suffered from - every upgrade could be implemented or maxed out. In essence this creates a "god" type character who excels at everything and is limited only by the amount of time the player is willing to invest in farming resources.

 I suggest that instead of farming minerals to purchase upgrades or enhancements as the current Mass Effect 2 system does, each weapon should have a designated amount of minerals or points to spend before the weapon can no longer be upgraded further. Lets say the Heavy Pistol can only contain 1000 (the number is just a placeholder). After the limit has been reached no more additional points can be spent to upgrade the weapon, thus making the player more consciousness on how they spend points/upgrade their weapon(s). For example - would it be more wise to max out armor piercing on a SMG to make it more versatile? Or maybe it would be more beneficial to upgrade its ability to rip through shields as it was designed to do? Perhaps a mix between the two, molding it into a "jack-of-all-trades" weapon would be best for the given situation.

I feel this simple concept has the potential to be superior to the current system, as not only does it help return some of the RPG elements that were streamlined into Mass Effect 2, but it successfully prevents Shepard from becoming unnecessarily powerful in the process. 

Modifié par -Skorpious-, 19 février 2010 - 06:45 .

[kalpain]

-Skorpious- wrote...

Kosmiker wrote...

I've made a thread with this suggestion but maybe I should post it here instead. I think it goes along with some of what has been posted so far.

---------------------------

Hello everyone!

Despite the fact that I did enjoyed the new inventory in ME2 i think however that a lot of room for improovement has been left.

Because the upgrades panel in the research lab becomes almost unbearable to read/follow after collecting all the upgrades I believe there should be a filter (like the one seen in ME1 inventory) to ease the pain of finding what upgrades we have.

But then again, why not mixing that upgrade info to the guns as well? And since we're on that course... why not make some customization for each gun with those same upgrades? And why not making good use of all the resources you that you currently have but there isn't any way of spending them?

Below you'll find an illustration of what I'm suggesting and would love to see something similar in ME3 (or even ME2 if it were possible).

*removed picture to save space*


So here's how it works:

1. The upgrades researched at the lab do not give you instant bonus to the guns, they just unlock further levels. Imagine you have researched only 2 out of 4 upgrades for Damage. You can upgrade the weapon to level 2 on the damage field (by spending resources like Iridium).

2. You have a filter (the one that looks like ME1 inventory filter) for you to easily pick up what type of gear you're upgrading.

3. Once you upgrade some type of gear, for example a sniper rifle, that sniper rifle will be upgraded to all squadmates.

4. The powers I listed on this example are just to fit as example, thereby i listed the ammo powers but could be something else like Refire Rate.

First off, I would like to say that I love your're concept of upgrading individual weapons. However, I believe it suffers from the same flaw that the ME:2 upgrade system suffered from - every upgrade could be implemented or maxed out. In essence this creates a "god" type character who excels at everything and is limited only by the amount of time the player is willing to invest in farming resources.

 I suggest that instead of farming minerals to purchase upgrades or enhancements as the current Mass Effect 2 system does, each weapon should have a designated amount of minerals or points to spend before the weapon can no longer be upgraded further. Lets say the Heavy Pistol can only contain 1000 (the number is just a placeholder). After the limit has been reached no more additional points can be spent to upgrade the weapon, thus making the player more consciousness on how they spend points/upgrade their weapon(s). For example - would it be more wise to max out armor piercing on a SMG to make it more versatile? Or maybe it would be more beneficial to upgrade its ability to rip through shields as it was designed to do? Perhaps a mix between the two, molding it into a "jack-of-all-trades" weapon would be best for the given situation.

I feel this simple concept has the potential to be superior to the current system, as not only does it help return some of the RPG elements that were streamlined into Mass Effect 2, but it successfully prevents Shepard from becoming unnecessarily powerful in the process. 

I think becoming more powerful is part of the fun of the
RPG.  If you are willing to put in the time and effort to become the all
powerful super player then more power to you. 
But again if you are willing.  ME2 unlike more traditional RPGs lets you
change the difficulty on the fly.  There have been times playing as a
Vanguard on Veteran where I have been tempted to turn it down.  But
to my credit I have yet to do so.  That being said I don't think ME2
gives you the option to become so all powerful that it's no longer a challenge
(unless, I imagine, you turn down the difficulty settings).  If anything I don’t think it makes you
powerful enough.  At least not in the
sense that you can just devastate opponents the way you can in other games.  But then again I wasn’t able to get every
single upgrade either.

Modifié par kalpain, 19 février 2010 - 06:57 .

[noobzor99]

I like most of the OP. Sounds pretty thorough, and would definitely improve the game IMO.

[yuncas]

kalpain wrote...

I think becoming more powerful is part of the fun of the
RPG.  If you are willing to put in the time and effort to become the all
powerful super player then more power to you. 
But again if you are willing.  ME2 unlike more traditional RPGs lets you
change the difficulty on the fly.  There have been times playing as a
Vanguard on Veteran where I have been tempted to turn it down.  But
to my credit I have yet to do so.  That being said I don't think ME2
gives you the option to become so all powerful that it's no longer a challenge
(unless, I imagine, you turn down the difficulty settings).  If anything I don’t think it makes you
powerful enough.  At least not in the
sense that you can just devastate opponents the way you can in other games.  But then again I wasn’t able to get every
single upgrade either.

Two thumbs up. The progression is a large part of the fun in these types of games for me. Maybe it was simply the lack of actually seeing how I was progressing that made it seem like it was lacking.

[kalpain]

I think thats part of it. As you upgrade weapons in ME2 you notice enemies do take slightly more damage. Maxing out Cryo Blast for a Sentinel makes the heavy weapon version fairly useless (not to mention an absolute life saver when getting swarmed by husks). Nothing as openly devastating as some rare final fantasy summons or something. But then again ME2 doesn't have enemies quite at the level of say an FF Ultimate Weapon. So maybe it evens out...

[Scarecrow_ES]

There are definitely two schools of thought when it comes to "leveling" caps in RPGs. The first camp is strongly in favor of caps set low so that a player must make difficult choices in how he upgrades and customizes his character - ensuring that character is likely unique and limited in overall power. The second camp believes there should be virtually no cap, and that a character's abilities and other upgrades should be determined, ultimately, on how much time and effort said player puts into his character - ensuring that players who invest copious numbers of hours in upgrading their character will have a tangible result for all that hard work.



I personally don't think either approach is any better than the other. Both have certain advantages and disadvantages in terms of gameplay, and honestly I think the choice of which system to implement should be determined on the type of game you are producing (largely the systems involved in leveling or otherwise upgrading a character), but also the actual end goal for your characters. Do you want players to make the hard choices and develop unique characters, or do you want characters to take unique paths in creating an uber-powerful character. What system is chosen can have widespread consequences to gameplay, even if all other content remains the same. For example...



Fallout 3... with the original level cap, it was largely impossible for players to max out their abilities in every specialization category. You character could be widely different from the next person's depending on your choices. When the level cap was raised, it became very easy to create a character that could max out every skill. This basically shattered any sort of individuality between character "classes" but then gave players the satisfaction of creating that UBER-character that let them play however they wanted. I personally enjoyed the game both before and after the level cap change, but there are those that were very polarized toward one system or the other.

[Scarecrow_ES]

I think, for my part, my ideal preference, with respect to the above discussion, is to have a system that allows players to max out the capabilities of weapons or equipment, but limits what the player can use at any given time. The player then must choose between different peices of equipment with differing characteristics that fit into individual playstyles. Items remain, essentially, equal in value or overall capability, but each have unique personalities that will resonate with different types of players. In this way, you can appease the camp that wants the uber-everything, but also attract the camp that wants differentiation.

[Prophet of Rage]

Why should I spend time carefully contemplating which skill would suit me best if our builds are gonna be virtually the same halfway into the game? Being in a position where I could just put auto-level on and end up more or less the same as everyone else is UNACCEPTABLE. HOW CAN YOU HAVE ANY PUDDING IF YOU DON'T EAT YOUR MEAT?

Bumped for great justice.

Modifié par Prophet of Rage, 20 février 2010 - 06:51 .

[Tankfriend]

That is exactly the point where customization has to kick in as Scarecrow mentioned. If we are going for a character system where everyone can essentially max out all skills of a character (as was the case in ME1 for the most part) we need some type of customization that still enables every player to create a more or less unique character that fits the individual playstyle. ME2 already had this in a very rudimentary stage if you compare the weapons (Vindicator burst-shot assault rifle vs. Revenant full-auto machinegun, for example) and take the armour pieces into account, but there was still a very clear lack in the amount of items to choose from. Not even to mention that most of the time there were some combinations/weapons that were clearly superior to anything else in their respective category. As was proposed in this thread before somewhere, we would need a larger collection of items per item category with each of them being a lot more unique and less clear-cut in terms of "which one is better?" to counteract the "samey-syndrome" of maxing out characters.

Another thing that might be useful in this regard would be to increase the differences between each character class by either introducing and adding new unique abilities or exchanging them for some of the more "samey" abilities like ammo. The ammo abilities could very well be transferred to an item-based system (upgrade slots as in ME1; a good idea if there is a modular weapon upgrade system like some have proposed) or to a research-based system (research "activates" and improves ammo types) or even a combination of the two. The point would be to remove abilities from the skill tree that either do not make any sense there (why, for example, would a soldier have to spend a special talent slot to be able to use AP ammo?) or do not add any real specialty to a character (e.g. ammo does not influence your general play style at all).  That way we have more space for unique talents per character class and we can still transfer the removed abilities to some other method of bringing them into the game.

Modifié par Tankfriend, 20 février 2010 - 01:28 .

[StingerSplash01]

The ammo system can benefit from a hybridization of the two but still needs to remain gameplay balance much like the snipers, fire one shot and overheat prevents them from becoming overpowered as they quickly run out of ammo, same can be said for shotguns, balancing needs to be maintained in order to preserve a challenge in long firefights, as these were never intended to be primary weapons.

[StingerSplash01]

Isn't this stickIed?

[Tankfriend]

No, it isn't. It was stickied once but got un-stickied again because it was supposedly too much alike to the "Mass Effect 3 Wishlist. (Very Thorough)" thread.

[Scarecrow_ES]

I'd argue, Stinger, that sniper rifles, shotguns, and assault rifles are very much intended to be the primary weapon in the given class they appear in. Infiltrators, as the best example, have skill trees that fundementally FOCUS on sniper combat. And yet, the current ammo/heat system virtually eliminates the possibility of using this weapon in long firefights. What's the point of spending so many points in a sniper specialization class if you can't use the sniper rifle to any effect?



In terms of balance, the naturally slow rate of fire for bolt action snipers is a balancing agent in and of itself. In ME1, only one (maybe 2, but the second is a much weaker weapon) sniper rifle could fire even 2 shots in a row without overheating. Most could only fire the one shot, and then required a pause by the player. The rate of fire in ME2 is actually right on par with ME1, except I can only ever fire 10 rounds in combat without having to give up and use something else.

[bohica01]

This is a fantastic thread. I actually read through your entire post, and would add my opinions.



1. I loved everything you said in the upgrading weapons and armor section. However, I would say rather than just adding more options and purpose to the mix-and-match system (which I would agree should be done), I would also suggest adding another base suit (like N7) which could be customized as well.



2. I do not agree with your ideas on the Ammo system, as I think the basic, tried and true, ammo system in ME2 is the best possible system for any sort of shooter combat. I would suggest no changes here.



3. On the subject of Cooldowns, I believe that the global cooldown system now in effect is the most fun and most sensible system. It allows for frequent, but not constant, use of powers in a way encourages maxing out specific abilities that you are fond of. Also, it makes the most sense in canon. Biotic powers are physically and mentally strenuous, after using one power, the Biotic would be tired and need a short break to compose himself. This lends itself to only being able to use one power at a time before the cooldown period.



4. I agreed quite a bit with your ideas on Skill Assignment and Evolution. However, I would add that one issue I had with the current Level Up system was the lack of passive options. I believe that in addition to everything you suggested, one or two more passive options be added rather than just the class specific one. For instance, a singular negotiation option would be welcomed. I would enjoy other options as well, certainly, but I cannot think of any examples.



5. I love your ideas for Power Evolution. More diversity to the evolved powers, as well as the ability for "charged" powers would both be great additions.



6. I have no problems with the current control scheme, and your version seems to provide the opportunity for a lot of error (punching when you want to take cover, for instance).



7. Though your ideas for expanded planet exploration seems interesting, I have no issues with the current scanning system. Also, adding more depth to the scanning seems like a waste of space on the disc imo.



8. The final thing I will add is something that was not addressed in your post, a suggestion of my own. It is a small issue, though improving it (I believe) will be highly beneficial. In ME2, Bioware essentially used the anomaly sidequests as a way to include varied level design and gameplay options that were not present in the main plot (a great example would be the level where you had to navigate a derelict ship teetering on the edge of a mountain). I love this idea. However, each of these missions was incredibly easy and took in general no more than 5 minutes (on insane). I would simply suggest adding more difficulty to these missions in general, particularly in the puzzle based missions. If some of these quests included genuinely difficult puzzles, I believe it would add another depth to the Mass Effect experience. On a sidenote, though I believe the difficulty should be increased, I would like to mention that the missions based solely on exploration, with no combat whatsoever, are welcomed as well, even though they have no difficulty by nature.

[Martian_Dude]

I've been browsing through this and there are a lot of great suggestions. I'm not sure this one's been mentioned before though...



How about having Shepard speak when he gives out orders. eg. "Garrus, go right!" or "Zaeed, take cover!" or "Tali, deploy the drone!"



The sqaudmates are pretty vocal in the game but I feel it's still missing that element of shepard talking. It doesn't seem like it would take too much extra work programming it for the next game and it could really add to the atmosphere.

[bohica01]

By the way, why isn't this stickied? I thought Woo-tang said, "Alright, lets sticky this bad boy."

[StingerSplash01]

Scarecrow_ES wrote...

I'd argue, Stinger, that sniper rifles, shotguns, and assault rifles are very much intended to be the primary weapon in the given class they appear in. Infiltrators, as the best example, have skill trees that fundementally FOCUS on sniper combat. And yet, the current ammo/heat system virtually eliminates the possibility of using this weapon in long firefights. What's the point of spending so many points in a sniper specialization class if you can't use the sniper rifle to any effect?

In terms of balance, the naturally slow rate of fire for bolt action snipers is a balancing agent in and of itself. In ME1, only one (maybe 2, but the second is a much weaker weapon) sniper rifle could fire even 2 shots in a row without overheating. Most could only fire the one shot, and then required a pause by the player. The rate of fire in ME2 is actually right on par with ME1, except I can only ever fire 10 rounds in combat without having to give up and use something else.

While this is semi-true, in ME1 evrybody had guns that would  never overheat, and I had a way of increasing damage to over 120% standard values legitly, but the snipers and shotguns which way OP in the last game to begin with, so people would never need to put them away, ammo counters this by forcing you to change weapons in prolonged firefights in short ones you don't run into this, what I meant is that it forces to actually change weapons which isn't wrong at all.

[FataliTensei]

StingerSplash01 wrote...

Scarecrow_ES wrote...

I'd argue, Stinger, that sniper rifles, shotguns, and assault rifles are very much intended to be the primary weapon in the given class they appear in. Infiltrators, as the best example, have skill trees that fundementally FOCUS on sniper combat. And yet, the current ammo/heat system virtually eliminates the possibility of using this weapon in long firefights. What's the point of spending so many points in a sniper specialization class if you can't use the sniper rifle to any effect?

In terms of balance, the naturally slow rate of fire for bolt action snipers is a balancing agent in and of itself. In ME1, only one (maybe 2, but the second is a much weaker weapon) sniper rifle could fire even 2 shots in a row without overheating. Most could only fire the one shot, and then required a pause by the player. The rate of fire in ME2 is actually right on par with ME1, except I can only ever fire 10 rounds in combat without having to give up and use something else.

While this is semi-true, in ME1 evrybody had guns that would  never overheat, and I had a way of increasing damage to over 120% standard values legitly, but the snipers and shotguns which way OP in the last game to begin with, so people would never need to put them away, ammo counters this by forcing you to change weapons in prolonged firefights in short ones you don't run into this, what I meant is that it forces to actually change weapons which isn't wrong at all.

I want my unlimited ammo back lol, for me playing with shotguns is more fun than a pistol or SMG

[N7 Om3ga]

Bio Ware needs someone like "urk" from bungie.net

Modifié par N7 Om3ga, 21 février 2010 - 03:25 .

[Scarecrow_ES]

Bohica... I would argue that if the current "ammo" system worked equally well for all types of weapons and supported all types of combat scenarios, then it would be a system worth keeping as is. The problem is, though, that the current system favors automatic weapons quite heavily, and at the expense of semi-auto weapons. No matter what's thrown at you, a player will never run out of ammo for the assault rifle or SMG, and many of the game's scenarios, and even basic gameplay tennants in dealing damage versus different types of protection, are geared heavily toward NEEDING those automatic weapons to deal with the given threats.



By that, of course, I mean that one CAN"T focus on semi-automatic weapons, not only because the overtly limited ammo supply forces you to switch to weapons for which ammo is more generous, but because these automatic weapons are the only effective way to actually deal with most threats. The very schewed gameplay is a problem.



There are a number of ways to solve this, of course, but in doing so, you also have to please the fans. I've seen a few ways it could be done quite simply, but so far no way is quite as versatile or reliable as the hybrid system I presented.

[Andorfiend]

Huh. I'm not sure why this needs it's own thread rather than just going in the 'suggestions for ME3' mega-thread but what the hey.


1.  Concerning Weapons and Equipment Inventory Refinement {INVNT}
2.  Concerning Weapons Gameplay Refinements {WEAPS}

These are pretty closely related categories so I'm just going to lump my comments into one reply. I think the flaws in the ME 1 inventory systems lay not in the number of items you might gather but in the lack of the basic utility functions (like sorting, stacking, and bulk selling/omni-gelling) that RPG makers having been using since the days of Bard's Tale. I would have been perfectly satisfied if Bioware had simply included those basic functions in with ME 2. That having been said I think it would be fine for ME 3 if they simply added another couple of balanced weapons to each category as you suggested.

However for both lore and gameplay reasons I want to see the return of the mod and ammo systems. Folding Ammo into powers makes absolutely no lore sense whatsoever and adds little but annoyance in a gameplay sense. Especially when you find out the hard way that buying more than one squad ammo power is a complete waste of 4 points. *facepalm*

As far as heat management goes I too favor a hybrid system, but I think it should work about opposite of the way you describe.  The purpose of the Ammo system is to add tension to the combat system. The point of the original heatsink system is never having to tell a player 'You die now because you missed one too many times.' So in order to gain the benefit of both approaches I'd like to see guns in ME 3 use the current heat clip system, however when you run out of heat clips the gun will only fire as fast as it can safely dissipate heat so your ROF drops to 1/4 or less of the normal ROF. So a player is rewarded for conserving ammo, but not so brutally punished when he fails to. It will also mean Infiltrators actually get to use the sniper rifles they specialize in more than 3 times a level.


3.  Concerning Improvements to Power/Skill Customization and Usage {PWRSKLL}

Some interesting ideas here. I agree that the concept of specializing powers is a good one, but that the execution is a bit weak. In particular I have issues with having the class passives being broken into a 'right path' that gives full conversation bonuses and a 'wrong path' that won't. STOP TELLING ME I"M PLAYING THE GAME WRONG! It might be interesting if the powers split earlier and evolved down seperate paths over several levels ending up in very different places. Possibly there might even be further evolution choices at the end of those paths so each power has four possible end points. That might also allow the skills to be broken up into more levels in order to allow for 1 point level purchases to prevent the orphan point problem.

Modifié par Andorfiend, 21 février 2010 - 03:30 .

[Scarecrow_ES]

In point of fact... my original proposal threads - the ones I had been forced to close in favor of this compendium thread upon promise of a sticky - actually came out days BEFORE the ME3 Wishlist thread. The only reason that thread has seen so many posts is because after a few days it received a sticky which puts it where everyone can see it. After receiving MY sticky, I had pulled up dozens of favorable posts in only a few short hours. Had it stayed up, mine would be at double-digit pages. Oh the justice of it all.



As far as the specific proposals I picked, my goal was to work on improving the systems the dev staff had chosen, rather than using all new systems wherever possible. While everyone has their favorite type of weapon augmentation system from this RPG or that, BioWare chose to go with this one. That said, this one is not perfect, and needs improving. I would much prefer systems that are in many ways different than the ones I've proposed. It just happens that the proposals represent relatively easy fixes for existing systems that can bring a polarized community together.



(as a side note, I like KotOR style weapon augmentation systems and lots of customization options too. Will BioWare want to go back to that though? No, I doubt it, so why struggle futily when you can work progressively within the established gameplay?)



The problem I have with the opposite-approach hybrid heat/ammo system like you describe is that, again, it really favors some weapons over others. Running out of clips would virtually gut automatic weapons but would do little to sniper rifles. However, as usual, if we see an abundance of clips as we do in ME2, automatic weapons users will never run out. In which case, Pistols and Shotguns get screwed. And if you can continue firing your weapon, even after you've completely abused them, how much pressure does that REALLY put on the player to conserve. The consequences of NOT conserving are marginal at best for most weapons. Balancing such a system to play evenly would be nearly impossible, unfortunatley.



From a real-world scientific point of view, my system makes a great deal of sense. All weapons, be they chemical propellant based (as standard firearms are) or directed energy weapons, or the odd physics-based systems such as in ME release a good deal of energy back into the weapon as heat when fired. That heat builds with each round, and is vented to atmosphere over time. Regardless of the existance of a thermal clip in a weapon, as in ME2, it would STILL cool itself over time (except in a vacuum). Also, there are real dangers of overheating. In chemical propellant weapons, there is a high risk of premature detonation due to exposure to heat. With Mass Effect weapons, it means the destruction of the on-board electrical/computer systems necessary to make the gun work. Remember, these things analyze the target, select an appropriate sized projectile, create said projectile from a block of raw material, select a proper velocity to damage the target, and then apply the electrical field to react with Eezo and then expell the projectile. THis is all HIGHLY electronics dependant. We can't even keep our PCs running reliably if they get much over room temperature. Imagine exposing them to several hundred degrees temperature. No responsible firearms manufacture would allow a weapon to be fired in an overheat condition.



Just throwing the science out there.

[PUFFlN]

BEAST!!!!!!

You are well educated and all of your ideas make sense....

Hopefully we will see some of these proposed features incorporated into the game.

(Doubt it)

Modifié par PUFFlN, 21 février 2010 - 04:30 .