77 réponses à ce sujet

[Coldcall01]

Okay I'm going to leave the RPG debate to one side, as i dont think the lack of RPG elements (other than the dialogue choices) is what really dumbs down this game.

Instead I think the main problem is a lack of complexity and customisation of the levelling, xp, research, the weapons, upgrades, armour, skills, talents etc...

Levelling: The only xp appears to come from finnishing a mission or a quest. As I've mentioned before on this forum, in ME2 Shepard can safely sit behind crates smoking a spliff while he lets his squad do all the killing. The game would not even notice. Boring and hardly an incentive to lead from the front. The squad all levels up together which is also boring, simplified and dumbed down. People wonder how they finnished the development so quickly; wonder no longer :-)


XP: There is no screen to check ones current xp. The only indicator is how much xp is required for next level. Again, dumbed down and boring.

Research: More boring linear research with no tree to menion. The system is based on finding or buying upgrades and there appears no direction to this research.  Boring and thoughtless. Compare with the complex research tree implemented in the old 90s XCOM UFO Enemy Unknown and one can see just how little thought Bioware put into research. Like an afterthought. Even more ridiculous is the fact that once you buy the research, the end product is made and implemented within seconds of having chosen it as a researech topic. ya right, really realistic Bioware.

Weapons: I wont go on too much but i find the lack of variety compared to ME1 pretty depressing.

Upgrades: These are really boring and have no sense of having improved much at all. Especially when most of thema re just part of a bland series which does the same thing each upgrade, such as +5% health, or +10% biotics...they just go on and on without any new functionality. Boring.

Armour: This is probably my biggest beef as at least in ME1 you had a large choice of armour. The choice of Shepards armour in ME2 is a joke considering what we had in ME1. And the causal wardrobe is really stupid. 4 outfits and the piratey one just looks hilariously stupid. This must have been rushed because i cannot believe Bioware were satisfied with the armour and casual wardrobe for Shepard. Inability to toggle helmet as in ME1! I could go on an on but i wont bother.

And the armour for your squad is the bigger joke. There is just no way to customise your squad in any meaningful way.

Anyway, believe it or not i have still somwhat enjoyed my first playthrough but i cant see how i will want multiple playthroughs because the customisation in this game is so limited that once you romp through the first time there is nothing to do that was not done in the first playthrough.

basically forget the argument about whether this is an rpg or not. Its the lack of complexity that makes this game somewhat boring.

[smudgedhorizon]

I have to agree, I loved character building in ME1, and played through many times to reach lv 60, collect matching armour sets for the whole team, etc.



This time around, there is little point playing NG+ and continuing after the story is even more dull. I was shocked that the team mates had a single comment about finishing the mission, then reverted back to exactly what they were saying before the mission: this completely broke immersion, listening to them talk about the upcoming mission (that we had already completed) just destroyed any feeling that these characters were real.



I also don't have enough money for fuel to fully explore the galaxy after buying upgrades, and there were very few sidequests. Why can't I trade surplus resources for credits?

[Magimel]

Coldcall01 I completely agree with you. I would also add the character skill development is very poor. In ME1 it was class based, like ME2, but each class had a plethora of abilities to choose from and you got to shape each character to your play style. Now your allies have 4 abilities which causes them to be hyper-specialized already. They painted Jack as an awesome biotic, but she only has 2 biotic abilities. Tali went from being a complete badass in ME1 to practically useless in ME2.

[Coldcall01]

Honestly guys compare old classics like XCOM which were developed in the 90s with no more than 3 megabytes of code. Just compare the difference in gameply depth. Its astonishing.



ME2 clocks in at 15 gigs+ and its gameply mechanisms could be coded on the back of a postcard.



Thing is we know Bioware are still capable of complexity such as DAO. Its very complex and should be the standard for building in enough complexity to make incentivise playthroughs

[Coldcall01]

smudgedhorizon wrote...

I have to agree, I loved character building in ME1, and played through many times to reach lv 60, collect matching armour sets for the whole team, etc.

This time around, there is little point playing NG+ and continuing after the story is even more dull. I was shocked that the team mates had a single comment about finishing the mission, then reverted back to exactly what they were saying before the mission: this completely broke immersion, listening to them talk about the upcoming mission (that we had already completed) just destroyed any feeling that these characters were real.

I also don't have enough money for fuel to fully explore the galaxy after buying upgrades, and there were very few sidequests. Why can't I trade surplus resources for credits?

Agreed. The dialogue remains practically the same from start to finnish re your squad and Normandy crew.

Howabout the guy trying to get into the nightclub at Omega? He is there from start to finnish. You;d think a guy would give up getting in after a month of trying.

[Coldcall01]

Magimel wrote...

Coldcall01 I completely agree with you. I would also add the character skill development is very poor. In ME1 it was class based, like ME2, but each class had a plethora of abilities to choose from and you got to shape each character to your play style. Now your allies have 4 abilities which causes them to be hyper-specialized already. They painted Jack as an awesome biotic, but she only has 2 biotic abilities. Tali went from being a complete badass in ME1 to practically useless in ME2.

Agreed. The classes are horrible in that they are so set from the start. Also very poor progression of skills/powers.

Also giving Shepard ability to suddenly change his powers is totally ridiculous. Its like they added that to research tree because they realised the classes were boring and limited.

Its like a mage suddenly being able to convert to a warrior overnight in DAO.

[smudgedhorizon]

Even funnier is the non-biotic classes like the soldier suddenly being able to use biotic abilities like slam XD

[Coldcall01]

smudgedhorizon wrote...

Even funnier is the non-biotic classes like the soldier suddenly being able to use biotic abilities like slam XD

I'm playiing a soldier and have banned myself from using the advanced training research to gain SLAM power because it is just so stupid i rather pretend its not possible.

[Magimel]

While I do not mind the advanced training aspect, seeing as how ME1 had something similar through achievements, I wish there were more abilities. Not just for Shepard, but for everyone. The way the game is now, all you need is an assault rifle and adrenaline rush and you will mow through everyone. Do to the lack of variety each character gets, only a few characters are useful. Any character that specializes in fighting synthetics or shield disruption, i.e. Tali, is near pointless because most of the enemies you fight are organics with armor. In ME1 tech abilities were far more versatile.

Modifié par Magimel, 02 février 2010 - 10:48 .

[Johnson45]

I will admit, as much as I like ME2 I don't see myself playing through it as much as I play through DA:O.

[Taritu]

I did prefer the old class system. Although the new one could work if you just gave some more choices, so we weren't stuck with 4 class abilities per npc. Even if we could just trade abilities for our NPCs within an appropriate list (Jack is god biotic, so she has access to 6 biotic abilities, but you can only have 4 at a time, type thing. Tali is a tech god, so she has access to most tech abilities, but you can choose which ones. Make us pay for it with element zero if you must, but I'd like to be able to customize my squad a bit, as it is Miranda is the right choice for almost every mission, for example.)

[Fanghorne]

DAO is just a superior game.

The immersive world that was ME was truly in and of itself astonishing. After that the game dropped off, in MEII even more so. Bioware simply made a total gem in DAO and I was hoping for the same in MEII,,.very disappointed to say the least.

[Taiko Roshi]

Agreed. There is no real in depth character builds in this game, which means very little replay value for me. Whoever thought that bullet damage types should be a "skill" needs to seriously look for another job in another industry. You could be forgiven for mistaking this game for a shooter. The game length is that short it really feels like a FPS game.

Modifié par Taiko Roshi, 02 février 2010 - 11:01 .

[SsevenN]

I'll be excited if I can stay interested enough to finish my second playthrough.



I'm giving it a 50/50 shot.



I have piles of level 50+ ME1 characters, if I end up with 2 level 30's in ME2 I'll be surprised.



ME2 lacks replay value, period.

[haberman13]

I will play through a 2nd time when ME3 is about to release... other than that, dead in the water.



Back to ME1 and DAO I guess.



DAO was surprisingly awesome, I didn't expect it, especially with the in your face marketing style they employed.

[Johnson45]

haberman13 wrote...

I will play through a 2nd time when ME3 is about to release... other than that, dead in the water.

Back to ME1 and DAO I guess.

DAO was surprisingly awesome, I didn't expect it, especially with the in your face marketing style they employed.

I agree, DA:O knocked me sideways

[DarthCaine]

Lack of complexity has nothing to do with replay value IMO

For example, I've beaten MGS1 over 30 times 'cos it has a awesome story

[GHOST OF FRUITY]

I can't say I enjoyed Dragon's Age as much as I hoped I would, but it does have more in terms of complexity and that does give it better longevity. I can't say I enjoyed the story or the characters, but I like the potential variety the game gives you. It's a game i'd play again for that reason.

ME2 is the polar opposite for me. The game perhaps has less to offer in terms of replay value through it's lighter customisation and less option in how you set up your squad, but I enjoyed the characters and story so much that I know i'll want to play through the game many times.

Two different games that for me have replay value for different reasons.

Modifié par GHOST OF FRUITY, 02 février 2010 - 11:16 .

[_KTA_]

???  By play 2 you had the best armor's and most your powers maxed.

I don't see a difference.

[Veex]

I'll never understand the term complexity in relation to gaming. I've yet to play a video that left me scratching my head, pondering what possible outcome or solution I could conjure up to accomplish something.



I loved Dragon Age, I played through almost three times, but there isn't anything difficult about it. Does it have more DEPTH in some areas, I agree that it does. Does that depth have anything complex about it? No it doesn't. Not in my opinion anyway.

[Khavos]

Veex wrote...

I'll never understand the term complexity in relation to gaming. I've yet to play a video that left me scratching my head, pondering what possible outcome or solution I could conjure up to accomplish something.

I loved Dragon Age, I played through almost three times, but there isn't anything difficult about it. Does it have more DEPTH in some areas, I agree that it does. Does that depth have anything complex about it? No it doesn't. Not in my opinion anyway.

Depth is a much better term than complexity.

ME2 is undeniably a shallow game.  It's pretty good fun, but shallow. 

Of course, I couldn't even finish DA:O due to getting bored with the MMO mechanics, so what do I know?  

[back pain]

Coldcall01 wrote...

XP: There is no screen to check ones current xp. The only indicator is how much xp is required for next level. Again, dumbed down and boring.

If you paid attentuion you will notice that 1 level is equal to 1000xp so to get your total xp youy use this formula:

(1000 x [Shepard's current level]) + (1000 - [xp needed for next level]) = [total xp]

Besideds the only usefull information you need to know is how much xp is needed for the next level.  The game just gives you the number and does not **** around.

edit: spelling

Modifié par back pain, 02 février 2010 - 11:28 .

[Veex]

Khavos wrote...

Depth is a much better term than complexity.

ME2 is undeniably a shallow game.  It's pretty good fun, but shallow. 

Of course, I couldn't even finish DA:O due to getting bored with the MMO mechanics, so what do I know? 

I think it has depth where it counts, in that the character interaction and story elements are at least on par with the original in my opinion. I'd also argue that a bloated inventory with inconsequential items doesn't make a game "deep" in any relevant sense, but perhaps that is of value to some.

[Spaghetti_Ninja]

This game has a lot more replay value than ME1. For one thing, combat is actually fun now. There are 6 romances to do. The 6 classes are really fundamentally different. Interrupts mean even more possible conversation outcomes. And of course with 11 characters, taking everyone everywhere and listening to their comments takes a while.



Mass Effect 1 pales in comparison, and the characters seem flatter as well. I'm probably never going to play it again.

[Spaghetti_Ninja]

Taiko Roshi wrote...

Agreed. There is no real in depth character builds in this game, which means very little replay value for me. Whoever thought that bullet damage types should be a "skill" needs to seriously look for another job in another industry. You could be forgiven for mistaking this game for a shooter. The game length is that short it really feels like a FPS game.

And ME1 had in depth character builds? Give me a break. A load of passive skills that hardly do anything. At least in ME2 the fewer skills really make a difference.