84 réponses à ce sujet

[Allison W]

The problem with having to bring a rogue along isn't that people want to have a party full of warriors and mages. It's that there are only two rogues in the game, one of whom you don't get right away (and who takes a few levels to get up to speed in lockpicking, at that). More rogue companions would probably help just as much as opening up lockpicking to warriors and mages.



Short of more rogue companions, I still think making it a Cunning-based skill would work the best. That way, you could open locks without a rogue, but they would still find it the lowest-hanging fruit.



Also, Leliana is not the best lockpicker in the game. My rogue is.

[Yrkoon]

wanderon wrote...

I see no reason why all classes should be able to do everything myself and think the mechanic that allows only rogues to open locks should be left as it is.

On the flip side, it's unrealistic  to believe that a massive, behemoth, 60+ str fighter who can  behead Dragons with the swing of sword,  cannot bash open a locked wooden  chest.

The solution is to make  that wooden chest bashable, at the cost of, perhaps, some of its contents not surviving the impact.

[Allison W]

Yrkoon wrote...
On the flip side, it's unrealistic  to believe that a massive, behemoth, 60+ str fighter who can  behead Dragons with the swing of sword,  cannot bash open a locked wooden  chest.

Am I the only person who actually bothers with Constitution on her warrior?

[Yrkoon]

Julian_Kraynog wrote...

I've read some of your posts and thanks for all the replies so far. I see that many people are choosing the rogue only because of the lock picking ability or even maybe for trap sensing skills but that's all. I've also read some posts where people say rogues suck in battles and if the lock picking skill is made "usable by all" they would just ignore the rogues class's existence. If people really think that by making one skill available for all classes would make a certain class underpowered, the flaw lies with the combat system of  the class. .

If you can even say that.

I for one, recently  discovered that  a well built rogue is equal, if not  slightly *better* than a warrior using the same weaponry.

And of course, a well built mage owns them all in combat.  But then again, a well built mage shouldn';t be strong enough to bash open a sturdy chest., so he'd need a rogue or warrior  to do it for him, yes.

[Allison W]

Well, true. I'm pumping Con on my warrior because she uses two-handed weapons and I don't want her to croak at the drop of a hat.

[Noobius_Maximo]

Ah, I love mods.

[Yrkoon]

Allison W wrote...

Well, true. I'm pumping Con on my warrior because she uses two-handed weapons and I don't want her to croak at the drop of a hat.

Well, this is getting off topic... but... a Con-based 2-hander?  Aside from  giving you a few more hitpoints, the only other advantage that Constitution gives you is  physical resistance  Ie..  it helps you resist knockdowns and melee stuns.

But two handers  have no use for that, since they get Indomitable, which make you flat out immune to knockdowns and stuns.

If you don't want to boost your strength, then you should try boosting your Dex, and watch as your oppoents start  missing  you with greater consistancy.

[Matheau]

Somehow I think a lot of the issues in this thread don't seem to come from the fact Rogues are a bad class, but that people don't understand how they work. You could build a Rogue to be basically identical DW Warrior if you want to with little difference. It's one thing if you are dissatisfied with the Rogue choices, but that doesn't mean they need to overhaul the skill system.



If you are dumping 8 talent points to level Stealth and Deft Hands all the way, it shouldn't be a shock a Rogue is less effective. Granted, any class is going to be less effective if you make bad talent choices anyways.

[Allison W]

Yrkoon wrote...

Allison W wrote...

Well, true. I'm pumping Con on my warrior because she uses two-handed weapons and I don't want her to croak at the drop of a hat.

Well, this is getting off topic... but... a Con-based 2-hander?  Aside from  giving you a few more hitpoints, the only other advantage that Constitution gives you is  physical resistance  Ie..  it helps you resist knockdowns and melee stuns.

But two handers  have no use for that, since they get Indomitable, which make you flat out immune to knockdowns and stuns.

If you don't want to boost your strength, then you should try boosting your Dex, and watch as your oppoents start  missing  you with greater consistancy.

Admittedly, I wanted her to be tough moreso than nimble.

[Yrkoon]

Julian_Kraynog wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...
If you can even say that.

I for one, recently  discovered that  a well built rogue is equal, if not  slightly *better* than a warrior using the same weaponry.

And of course, a well built mage owns them all in combat.  But then again, a well built mage shouldn';t be strong enough to bash open a sturdy chest., so he'd need a rogue or warrior  to do it for him, yes.

Can you eloborate? What do you actually mean by a "Well built" rogue? Providing rogue with more of a warrior type of stats(like concentrating on strength, constitution etc) MAY lead the rogue as you say to be slightly better Dual wielder or Archer than those of a warrior type. Never really tried it that way. I was just answering what many people in this thread were moaning about; that they have been using rogue only for the lock picking but not his combat skills.

^there's that.  or a dex-based rogue, using his assassin specialization skills... and Steath, and backstabs/flanking

[Allison W]

Matheau wrote...

Somehow I think a lot of the issues in this thread don't seem to come from the fact Rogues are a bad class, but that people don't understand how they work. You could build a Rogue to be basically identical DW Warrior if you want to with little difference. It's one thing if you are dissatisfied with the Rogue choices, but that doesn't mean they need to overhaul the skill system.

If you are dumping 8 talent points to level Stealth and Deft Hands all the way, it shouldn't be a shock a Rogue is less effective. Granted, any class is going to be less effective if you make bad talent choices anyways.

See, the Duelist route gets to be a bit of a beast. And don't forget piling Evasion on top of crazy-high Dexterity and the Duelist defense bonuses... Maybe a pair of Bard's Dancing Shoes (or the Lion's Paw), too. And the Felon's Coat... and the Shield of the Magister Lord... and and and...

That said, my current rogue is intentionally designed less for direct combat, with Stealth, lockpicking, high Cunning, no Combat Training, max Coercion, the bard spec, headed ranger spec, etc., and she's still fairly effective now that she has Lethality. She isn't even using uber gear; she's still in Adaia's Boots, Chasind Robes, Angled Strikers, etc.

I still maintain that one of two things should happen for the next game, though: either a better variety of rogues to balance the whole slew of warriors, or lockpicking should stop being rogue-only (though it still makes sense for it to be rogue-best).

[Daxlanden]

In my opinion I have found that in this game, It depends on the class that your main toon is, If you yourself are a rogue then there is no problem at all. I started this game as a warrior, Yes the lockboxes not being able to be opened bothered me. I can fully agree that allowing mages and warriors to open lockboxes and locked doors would be a good idea. Will this choice lessen a rogue? Well that all depends really, What level difficulty are you playing at? If one is playing on casual... then really the main focus is your toon. I can see a rogue losing somthing if you play this way. BUT there is still the trap detection and disarming. Let alone that a rogue throws out a mass amount of DPS (Damage per second). I personally favor the rogue as a toon in this game. The only thing that has trumped this class in my eyes is a mage that is spec'ed as an arcane warrior. Anyways I am getting off topic. Adding lock smashing, and a unlock spell, in my opinion would not take away from the rogue. If I am playing on a harder difficulty the build of my party truly matters, I need a good DPS that can fade from battle and look ahead to see what I am facing! This is why a rogue is such a valuable ally. I am sure other people have their opinions and they have good points, Yet can you truly argue that rogues can't dish out a quick blows and that they often have the killing blow because of said damage? Rogue's will always be an important role, with or without lockpicking.

Modifié par Daxlanden, 03 février 2010 - 05:09 .

[todesgotte]

I like the idea of a fighter having a chance to break a lock if his strength is high enough but make him need VERY high strength for even midrange chests. Mages should be able to find or buy scrolls that allow them to cast 'open locks' on chests or locked doors, but these would be very rare.

[SuperMedbh]

I love playing rogues (I mean, you miss the whole Crime Wave questline if you don't), but I can see the trouble with chests until you get Leliana. After that, it's another one of those decision things-- take Leliana and get more stuff, or don't and free up a slot for someone whose skills might be needed more for a given quest. On the other hand, I don't recall many locked chests in my mage origin, so it might be a moot point.

[wanderon]

Yrkoon wrote...

wanderon wrote...

I see no reason why all classes should be able to do everything myself and think the mechanic that allows only rogues to open locks should be left as it is.

On the flip side, it's unrealistic  to believe that a massive, behemoth, 60+ str fighter who can  behead Dragons with the swing of sword,  cannot bash open a locked wooden  chest.

The solution is to make  that wooden chest bashable, at the cost of, perhaps, some of its contents not surviving the impact.

I'm not really looking for reality in my fantasy games and am quite willing to accept whatever restrictions a game developer chooses to place on gameplay. If the game is then fun for me I play it for years and if not then I put it on the shelf and go play something else.
 
I have played games that used that solution and found that it mostly just discouraged folks from using  a rogue at all with every other rogue topic filled with statements about who needs a rogue just bash the locks and run over the traps ftw.

This is why I think the mechanic works well as is in DA and do not wish to see it officially changed. As others have stated if someone wants to bash open locks you can d/l the community mod (or make your own if that one doesn't suit you) - there is no need to reshape the official game content to suit every individuals personal wants.
 
In a game where you only have three classes to begin with I think having mechanics that encourage the use of all of those classes in most every party is a good move design wise. 

I think that by doing so it also makes the use of non-traditional party combos decidedly different to work with (leave class X out and you miss out on ____ or have to do without ____  but you get more ___ or ___ if you have more of class Y or Z) which is IMO another plus as it enhances replay.

(Or at least it does for all but those individuals who insist that they must be able to do everything that can be done in a game no matter what choices they make for classes or party combos.)

. Making it easier to do more things with every class on the other hand makes for less interesting play IMO.

[bzombo]

Allison W wrote...

The problem with having to bring a rogue along isn't that people want to have a party full of warriors and mages. It's that there are only two rogues in the game, one of whom you don't get right away (and who takes a few levels to get up to speed in lockpicking, at that). More rogue companions would probably help just as much as opening up lockpicking to warriors and mages.

Short of more rogue companions, I still think making it a Cunning-based skill would work the best. That way, you could open locks without a rogue, but they would still find it the lowest-hanging fruit.

Also, Leliana is not the best lockpicker in the game. My rogue is.

well, rogues aren't supposed to be good in combat. their usefulness is  out of combat or getting surprise in the beginning of combat (backstab). there are players who have balance complaints. it's a single player game. you don't need balance. mages are the most powerful, followed by warriors, and rogues are a distant third. that's just the way it is. all are useful and a good party should have one of each class plus a second warrior (tank, dps, range, and magic).

[Allison W]

bzombo wrote...

Allison W wrote...

The problem with having to bring a rogue along isn't that people want to have a party full of warriors and mages. It's that there are only two rogues in the game, one of whom you don't get right away (and who takes a few levels to get up to speed in lockpicking, at that). More rogue companions would probably help just as much as opening up lockpicking to warriors and mages.

Short of more rogue companions, I still think making it a Cunning-based skill would work the best. That way, you could open locks without a rogue, but they would still find it the lowest-hanging fruit.

Also, Leliana is not the best lockpicker in the game. My rogue is.

well, rogues aren't supposed to be good in combat. their usefulness is  out of combat or getting surprise in the beginning of combat (backstab). there are players who have balance complaints. it's a single player game. you don't need balance. mages are the most powerful, followed by warriors, and rogues are a distant third. that's just the way it is. all are useful and a good party should have one of each class plus a second warrior (tank, dps, range, and magic).

One, rogues kick ass just fine. Two, you missed my point, which is that more rogue companions are needed if rogues are supposed to be a necessary party component. There are like five warriors, and then the mabari hound, to two rogues. (Truth be told, another mage wouldn't kill anybody either--too bad they dumped Jowan as a potential companion.)

[Allison W]

double post, lol

Modifié par Allison W, 04 février 2010 - 12:36 .

[Hyper Cutter]

They really should have made lockpicking a skill, like stealing is...

[SleeplessInSigil]

Agree. There should be a way to HULK SMASH locked containers, albeit at a risk of trashing the items inside.