84 réponses à ce sujet

[Franpa]

I was thinking, if a warrior could break a lock, that may trigger a trap (injury, fireball, mark of mortality, grease trap etc.) where as a Rogue can skillfully pick the lock and disable the trap simultaneously thus making a rogue still unique in that it uses it's Trap Disarm abilities to open a chest safely.

[wanderon]

Julian_Kraynog wrote...

Wanderon, you've made your point of what YOU want just like any other person posting here and thanks for that. Balance and uniqueness is what I'm asking, not "certain individual" desires you keep talking about. There are people who want to do everything in just one play through but that is not what I aim to achieve. As of how the game is now, only the rogue seems to be unique, being able to lock pick, sense and disarm traps. The other two classes just seem to have combat uses and nothing more. The player should be choosing the class as one of his/her companion but not be forced to do so. Giving a skill to a warrior or a mage which can only be used by either and the skill having just as much of importance that lock picking has(not the same skill but a completely different one) would provide more replayability.

If I really wanted to have a mod made, I wouldn't really post here and endure "certain individuals'" going on about their "don't really care how the game is" style of game play. A game is not perfect just because it is official. That is why there are these forums where people suggest. It's up to the company to take those suggestions or just ignore them. Certain individuals, how you would put it, don't become whiners just because they ask why few elements in game are limited to a certain class.

Now this individual has learned that these elements he's mentioning are meant to be unique for that particular class, thus now he asks why other classes do not have their own unique elements.

A note to the any others here who think this thread is made by a whiner just to get a certain skill. IT IS NOT.

Yes the rogue is unique - they get more points to spend and becuase they generally have high cunning they are probably the best option for a "talker" or diplomat type of PC (since only the PC can use dialoge options) but is limited to only two talent trees for combat.

The warrior is also unique - he gets the most choices of combat talents and is best suited to make use of the large number of heavy or massive armors and heavy weaponry.

The Mage is also unique as he gets magic and all the options that go with it.

I am not accusing anyone of whining I am just pointing out that not everyone agrees that the game needs to be changed to allow warriors to open chests nor does everyone agree that other classes need more unique abilities altho for me that would depend on what those abilities might be and exactly how they would be implemented.

Yes that is indeed the purpose of having a forum where you can trot out your ideas of what you think the devs should do and thats precisely why I am posting in this thread. To put my own opinion that such changes should NOT be made to the original game becuase I happen to think they work better without them and I want the devs to note that as well if they happen to be listening becuase it's not a discussion if only one side is allowed to speak.

[Yrkoon]

 Okay.


I get the  point you  (and others) have been making on this thread about how there's 3 general classes and they should all  have their own, exclusive skills.  Ie.  don't  fix things that ain't broke.


  Fine.

But DA:O already breaks this rule, and it does so  in the most blatant way imaginable.  My Heavily armored warrior can   successfully pickpocket  just about anyone in this game.  Does that make any sense at all?  No.  It does not.      From  the point of view of believeability,  It takes a *hell* of a lot more skill and practice to be able to swipe someone's  coin purse without them knowing it, than it does to learn how to pick a lock.

I just want to know what sort of  logic is involved here.  How come stealing is a skill anyone can learn, but  on the other hand, no one can learn lockpicking except rogues...

Modifié par Yrkoon, 04 février 2010 - 12:28 .

[wanderon]

Yrkoon wrote...

 Okay.


I get the  point you  (and others) have been making on this thread about how there's 3 general classes and they should all  have their own, exclusive skills.  Ie.  don't  fix things that ain't broke.


  Fine.

But DA:O already breaks this rule, and it does so  in the most blatant way imaginable.  My Heavily armored warrior can   successfully pickpocket  just about anyone in this game.  Does that make any sense at all?  No.  It does not.      From  the point of view of believeability,  It takes a *hell* of a lot more skill and practice to be able to swipe someone's  coin purse without them knowing it, than it does to learn how to pick a lock.

I just want to know what sort of  logic is involved here.  How come stealing is a skill anyone can learn, but  on the other hand, no one can learn lockpicking except rogues...

I understand your point but for me at least the logic of mechanics is right down there with realism at the very bottom of my list of what I seek from CRPGs.
 
I have no doubt that there were long discussions within the dev team about how to put the game together and basicly I am satisfied to allow them to make those decisions as long as the game is fun for me to play.

When I find a game like DA:O that IS fun for me to play I like to add my voice to discussions about changing the way the game works and when it comes to reshaping a games design I am usually against messing with it "officially" and allowing the mod community to fool with it on a community level where it does not effect MY game unless I want it to.

(I am not a modder but I believe the toolset for this game was specificly developed in a manner to make it very easy for modders to change almost anything they wish unlike some other games like NWN2 where some things could only be done by devs.)

While being official may not mean it's perfect the other side of that coin applies as well. Just becuase there are alternate methods of doing things doesn't mean the devs original choice was not a good or even the best choice.
It's pretty much a no brainer to me - who do I want to trust game design to - the devs who spent 5 years working on the game or the gamer who has had it in his hands for what?  3 months?

Selfish perhaps and maybe even short sighted but in the end I suspect I will still be actively playing the game long after those who wish to redesign it have uninstalled it and moved on so I want my voice to be heard as well in order to protect my fun!

The other aspect to my reasoning is if the devs aren't busy changing mechanics to suit everyones wants and needs they can spend that time more productively (to me) making new content for me to enjoy instead of fixing stuff I don't see as broken.

[wanderon]

Julian_Kraynog wrote...

wanderon wrote...
there is no need to reshape the official game content to suit every individuals personal wants.

I'm sorry. I seem to have taken the above quoted line as written against me which made me think; it implies that I created this thread to reshape the game according to my taste. If that wasn't really your intention, fine then.

Isn't reshaping the game and how it works exactly what this thread is about? Specificly to reshape the manner in which locks can be picked to include an option for a warrior to open them?

My comment was not directed at you alone so much as it was an affirmation of my opinion about the numerous discussions focused on ways to change the way the game works one way or another.

I think it's safe to assume that anyone putting forth such ideas is in fact doing so because they find such changes to match their own taste or preferences isn't it?
 
I mean I doubt any of the proposed changes people have put forth would be things that they really didn't like but felt a need to put them forth anyway (for the greater good?)  

Back to the topic. Being a diplomat is not the only thing a rogue can do. You forgot the trap sensing, stealth, disarming and lock picking skills of a rogue.

I agree a warrior can equip heavy armor but is there anything else? The combat choices you speak are 4 roles in which 2 of them are also possessed by a rogue.

A mage being able to use his magic and that's supposed to be his unique ability or an obvious one? I agree with you that a mage is given a lot of options to choose unique set of talents but you have to know he cannot use them all. Warriors and mages are only able to drop just as many points as a rogue can.

So, no matter how many choices they have, the number of talents they can choose is the same as a rogue. But trap sensing, stealth, disarming and lock picking all can be done by a rogue at the same time without having to choose between them, isn't that imbalance?

It might indeed be imbalance - but this is a single player game and a party based game and you can have all three classes in your party so what difference does it make that one class can do things that another cannot?

The whole premise of a party based role playing game is based on the player making choices and having those choices effect the manner in which the game plays out. This begins with choosing a character, a class, talents, skills, and then to choosing a party and their classes, talents, and skills, and on to choices of how the group interacts with the world.
 
I just don't see an issue with the fact that one of the choices NOT available to you is to have a warrior open a locked chest. That just leads to two other choices - either:

A: take a rogue along to open them

or

B: do without the contents

Works for me...

[wanderon]

Julian_Kraynog wrote...

Thread is made for reshaping the game? yes. For only my preference? NO.

Yes, you may have found yourself viewing lot of other threads where people want these type of changes only for their benefits, but not all threads are made for such a reason, especially not this one.

You're talking about party choices and me, about classes. Yes, it's finally our choice whether to have rogue in the party or not. But giving him such good skills and leaving the other two classes in the dust makes no sense. Hence, it doesn't become a choice to recruit the rogue but a necessity.

Frankly, I carry rogue every game I play in DA:O and it's not because of her lock picking skill but her trap sensing and disarming which have been very useful for me. In my OP, I should have included about these skills as well so that the imbalance I'm talking about can noticed easily.

You're fine playing the game this way? fine. The game should lead to choices this way:

A:Get a rogue and open them

B:Do without them and enjoy special skills of your other class.

The game does indeed play like that right now - it just doesn't offer a lockpicking option as one of those special skills - and there is nothing wrong with deciding you can do without a rogue (and thus without the extra loot from locked containers) it will give you a different playthrough.

You will have a little less cash and a few less goodies but there is no reason you can't finish the game while getting more use out of which ever class you decided to replace the rogue with.

It's actually a win/ win situation - you trade your rogue for either more mage goodness or more warrior goodness and you don't have to worry about wasting skill points to open locks or attributte points to boost cunning leaving you free to use those points elsewhere.

[Vanderbilt_Grad]

The argument has been made that there is nothing in the game stopping you from doing an area with a party with no rogue ... and then going back with a rogue to open everything. In fact even if you complete an area with a rogue in your party, but he's not skilled enough to open something ... you can just come back leter when he's gained a level or three. So there really is no reason to ever do anything with a rogue in the game, at least on the first go. All adding locked boxes and limiting lockpicking to rogues does is make the game take more time if you want to open stuff.



Really the only thing a rogue really offer is in comba trap disarms. That really is useful and sets them apart, but it in no way needed to be tied to lockpicking.