96 réponses à ce sujet

[gethsemani87]

sleepy__head wrote...
Odd.  I believe working with known murderers is against my Shep's ethics.  Is there a choice to not work with Cerberus?  No, I don't think so either.  Essentially you are forced to join up with Cerberus, no matter how much you know their modus operandi is.  And you kept waving the "Cerberus is the only one" thing around.  That is only true because the devs didn't bother adding in a second option, by assuming that the rest of the galaxy and every other alien races out there are blind, deaf and stupid.  Having only one option isn't roleplay.  Its reading a novel.  I believe I have already said that.

 

You are not working for Cerberus, you are working WITH Cerberus against a common goal that should be in everyones best interest (the survival of every spacefaring race in the galaxy). Not to mention that... you know, every last one of your party members is a murderer of some kind (Samara might be the exception since she's a Justicar and technically is the Law). Do you propose that BioWare would have developed a whole second set of party members to?

See, you are using the logical fallacy that there should be a second option. It didn't in ME1 and I didn't hear anyone saying they didn't want to be a SPECTRE. Working with Cerberus is a case of tough luck, but in the end there is a bigger stake at hand than Shepard feeling dirty for having to recieve aid from an organization that has some other clandestine dealing.

[Dudi001]

small note to the whole Joining Cerberus thingy. Its not end justify the means here. Its just sometimes if you want to succeed, you have to take the not totally right way. I know it sounds similar, but look at it this way. Its a game and thus its set that you can win, save the galaxy or whatever. Given the state the galaxy is in, and the reputation Sheppard has, its likely that you wouldnt be able to save the galaxy any other way. So, question for you. Imagine there is the option to not work with cerberus. Would you rather to play for 15+ more hours to find out you lost and the reapers won or would you rather right after you take the choice to see red writing saying critical mission failure, you cant save the galaxy now? Plus your being really unthankful, those guys saved your life

[sleepy__head]

You are not working for Cerberus, you are working WITH Cerberus against a common goal

Are you saying that someone working WITH Al Queda is somehow less guilty than someone working FOR Al Queda?  Please.

See, you are using the logical fallacy that there should be a second option.

Logical fallacy of having options? lol  Please, games like this, and Dragon Age, brag about presenting you with choices and letting you choose.  Its not fallacy when its the developers who pretend that there are choices when there really is none.  You joined the bad guys to fight badder guys.  THAT essentially the summary of ME2.

[raptor113]

sleepy__head wrote...

You are not working for Cerberus, you are working WITH Cerberus against a common goal

Are you saying that someone working WITH Al Queda is somehow less guilty than someone working FOR Al Queda?  Please.

See, you are using the logical fallacy that there should be a second option.

Logical fallacy of having options? lol  Please, games like this, and Dragon Age, brag about presenting you with choices and letting you choose.  Its not fallacy when its the developers who pretend that there are choices when there really is none.  You joined the bad guys to fight badder guys.  THAT essentially the summary of ME2.

First off Al Queda wants to kill innocent people because they have different beliefs. Cerberus is not some evil organization that wants to kill all aliens. They have done a lot of bad things but in the end they still do it for some good. 

Why do you need a choice to work with some organization other than Cerberus. The alliance and council dont believe the reapers are a threat. So if Shepard did not accept Cerberus aid he would not have been able to succeed. The big thing is no AI with reaper tech to defend them against harbinger. No Normandy and easy access to information TIM provides. With out all the things Cerberus gives you It would have been critical mission failure several times over.

In the end you can tell TIM to **** off which was great. But you say Bioware engineered the story so there were no other options. SERIOUSLY??? That is the worse argument I have ever heard. The story Bioware set up was easily believable. What other option could you possible want that would still work with the story? You expect the council to help the dead guy who keeps ranting about a race of hyper advance race of machines that comes back every 50k years to wipe out all life in the galaxy for no other reason than because they "demand" it.

[phimseto]

Hey, I don't agree with some of what you wrote, but I did want to say it was a very well-written post and helpful in my own attempts to parse my thoughts on the game. Thanks.

[GotchaNL]

sleepy__head wrote...
Are you saying that someone working WITH Al Queda is somehow less guilty than someone working FOR Al Queda?  Please.

If, for some reason, aliens would invade our Earth and Al Qaeda would ask me to fight along with them against this new enemy, heck, why the hell not? It wouldn't mean I'd become a terrorist. We'd just have a common interest in saving our planet. After the aliens would be defeated we'd go our separate ways again.
In the end of ME2 you can tell TIM to shut the hell up and go your own way, so it's all good really.

Shepard could have said no to TIM, but what would that have done? It wouldn't have stopped the disappearance of human colonies, since the Alliance seemed to have no interest whatsoever to do some research of why people are disappearing; instead pointing their fingers at pirates.
So it's up to Shepard to do something about it, and he/she NEEDS Cerberus, since he/she has no resources to fight back herself.

[eldanori]

Having it be Cerberus that saves you makes no sense. In ME1, they were not presented as a pro-human organisation, doing what was best for human interests. They were a terrorist organisation with various cells doing questionable research, not only on aliens, but also on humans, and acting against human interests (undermining the Alliance, killing soldiers, killing Admirals). The Cerberus of ME2 is not the same organisation, and writing it off as "oh, that was our military branch, they're rogues" is a rather poor cop-out.



If you wanted to go a similar path with a "dubious" benefactor that didn't fly in the face of actions of ME1, the Terra Firma party would have been a far superior choice. Not only did Shepard have little interaction with Terra Firma (the one politician on the Citadel was it), but their stated motivations already match what Cerberus was morphed into, and resurrecting Shepard is a hell of a campaign slogan.



"Shepard saved the galaxy, and the galaxy turned its back. But Terra Firma stands behind humanity, and behind Shepard. We brought back the hero of humanity, for humanity. Terra Firma: rebuilding the future."



Very little else would have to be changed to have made the whole thing Terra Firma instead of Cerberus, and the story would have made a lot more sense.



Plus then I could play more politics like I did in the first one.

[sleepy__head]

The story Bioware set up was easily believable.

Really?  You mean things like that the evil organization that you have been stomping on in the first game has suddenly become an all powerful, nearly omnipotent and omniscience group, even able to bring back the dead, somehow duplicated the most advanced ship in the Alliance in total secrecy, and in only 2 years, and somehow got people like Joker and Chawas who know first hand how evil Cerberus is to happily join up them, and that Cerberus must have been magically hiding at the location where the Collector first destroyed SR1 because otherwise they would not have gotten there in time to prevent Shepard's body from falling into the planet burning up during re-entry, and that somehow some mysterious super rich individual is in charge of this Sekret Organization with only about 150 people in the entire galaxy who has master the art of resurrection?  Yeah sure, its believable.

What other option could you possible want that would still work with the story?

Oh I don't know, maybe the human council lead by Anderson, who was there when the Reaper slammed into the Citadel, got the rest of the aliens to band together to prepare for war?  If George Bush can get "dozens of countries" to go into Iraq for those non existent weapons of mass destructions, surely the burning carcass of the Reaper in the citadel is more plausible than any fantasy WMD.

[finnithe]

eldanori wrote...

Having it be Cerberus that saves you makes no sense. In ME1, they were not presented as a pro-human organisation, doing what was best for human interests. They were a terrorist organisation with various cells doing questionable research, not only on aliens, but also on humans, and acting against human interests (undermining the Alliance, killing soldiers, killing Admirals). The Cerberus of ME2 is not the same organisation, and writing it off as "oh, that was our military branch, they're rogues" is a rather poor cop-out.

If you wanted to go a similar path with a "dubious" benefactor that didn't fly in the face of actions of ME1, the Terra Firma party would have been a far superior choice. Not only did Shepard have little interaction with Terra Firma (the one politician on the Citadel was it), but their stated motivations already match what Cerberus was morphed into, and resurrecting Shepard is a hell of a campaign slogan.

"Shepard saved the galaxy, and the galaxy turned its back. But Terra Firma stands behind humanity, and behind Shepard. We brought back the hero of humanity, for humanity. Terra Firma: rebuilding the future."

Very little else would have to be changed to have made the whole thing Terra Firma instead of Cerberus, and the story would have made a lot more sense.

Plus then I could play more politics like I did in the first one.

Terra Firma is partially funded by Cerberus, but even then, I don't think TIM would give them more than 4 billion credits, which the Lazarus Project cost. I don't even think it was finished when Wilson made this assessment. 

I think Bioware is trying to tell the player that saving the galaxy does require sacrifices, whether through people or principles. You sound like a Lawful Good person who has a problem with the fact that the law and right action are conflicting. Not only is it more practical for the developers to limit the player's choice to Cerberus, but it's probably a better solution overall. It's unlikely that anyone else would have helped Shepard quick enough. 

The ammo system was in my opinion something ME2 needed. ME1's combat was broken, essentially. The number of gamebreaking strategies was innumerable. Hell, having only immunity and the pistol weapon skill was enough the beat the game, and snipers, given enough distance, could kill everything up to and including Collusi. This new system keeps players from overusing weapons, and even then, I find it difficult to completely run out of ammo. Just use the SMG for barriers/shields, switch out to your pistol/AR for armor, and finish off with a biotic power combo. 

A C- for a glitch of that nature is ridiculous. What about ME1's infamous Feros elevator? The texture pop-in? 

Similarly, a F for not seeing Tali's face. You are really undermining your own review, Bioware was at fault here but it does not deserve a fail. I found her romance to be very touching; I never actually thought Tali would have had feelings for Shep for so long. 

EVERY game has stability issues on Day 1. And as this is the first time the Cerberus Network has been implemented, I think it's ok for ME2 to have these issues.

EDIT: Adding some other stuff

Cerberus has always been extremely powerful, just read the books. And don't you think it would take significant resources to procure all those Rachni, Thorian Creepers, Husks, Thresher Maws, and successfully kidnap an Alliance Admiral? Also note that the Normandy SR-2 was being built over a period described by EDI as being "several years", i.e. more than two.

If some guy/girl came back from the dead now affiliated with an organization most know as terrorists ad told me ther was a race of sentient machines that were now going to harvest all of humanity and convert them into one of their own before destroying every other race in the galaxy, I wouldn't believe him. The human/old Council has every reason to believe that Shepard is insane, and thus not believe him. I was surprised that they actually decided to reinstate Shep as a SPECTRE. They're giving you a lot of discretionary power through that alone.

Modifié par finnithe, 02 février 2010 - 05:44 .

[WAR RAGNAROK]

i think that the game took a step back in the weapons and armour department plus theres only three hub worlds so there isnt much variety there, you cant get any stats on weapons and powers they should just bring back the weapon and armour system from me1 and tweek it a little.The developers had the memory space to do this because on disc one when you install it it takes up 6.9 gigs and disc 2 only takes up 6 gigs either they got lazy or EA just didnt give them the time they needed to add the equipment system............ SO BIOWARE DONT SCREW UP ME3!!!

[sleepy__head]

If, for some reason, aliens would invade our Earth and Al Qaeda would ask me to fight along with them against this new enemy, heck, why the hell not?

If only it is that simple then you wouldn't hear all these complaints on the forum.  Now imagine that the aliens invade our Earth, and 2 years ago during the invasion you fould Al Qaeda experimenting on humans, covering up their crimes by killing the ones who found out, trying to resurrect an extinct super dangerous creature in an attempt to control and unleash them on the alien invaders, using viruses on unwilling human subjects trying to learn how best to deploy it as biological weapons, and you were from this town called Akuse where you know Al Qaeda scientists deliberately just sat by watching as some of the aliens slaughtered your units just so Al Queda can learn how to build better armor against their attacks.

Now things get a little more complicated, aren't they?

[sleepy__head]

WAR RAGNAROK wrote...

i think that the game took a step back in the weapons and armour department plus theres only three hub worlds so there isnt much variety there, you cant get any stats on weapons and powers they should just bring back the weapon and armour system from me1 and tweek it a little.The developers had the memory space to do this because on disc one when you install it it takes up 6.9 gigs and disc 2 only takes up 6 gigs either they got lazy or EA just didnt give them the time they needed to add the equipment system............ SO BIOWARE DONT SCREW UP ME3!!!

I think they saw the complaints against ME1's inventory system, which was legit, but waaay over corrected by completely eliminated it.  Inventory and finding new shiny gear is the classic joy and fun in any RPG.  They should have increased the inventory size, add in better sorting mechanism, gives a better way to convert omni-gel, and make loot drops make more sense.  THAT would have been perfect.  Right now, you get better gear by going to a store, purchase a research, then walk back to the Normandy and click on "Research".  Super exciting it is not.

[raptor113]

sleepy__head wrote...

The story Bioware set up was easily believable.

Really?  You mean things like that the evil organization that you have been stomping on in the first game has suddenly become an all powerful, nearly omnipotent and omniscience group, even able to bring back the dead, somehow duplicated the most advanced ship in the Alliance in total secrecy, and in only 2 years, and somehow got people like Joker and Chawas who know first hand how evil Cerberus is to happily join up them, and that Cerberus must have been magically hiding at the location where the Collector first destroyed SR1 because otherwise they would not have gotten there in time to prevent Shepard's body from falling into the planet burning up during re-entry, and that somehow some mysterious super rich individual is in charge of this Sekret Organization with only about 150 people in the entire galaxy who has master the art of resurrection?  Yeah sure, its believable.

What other option could you possible want that would still work with the story?

Oh I don't know, maybe the human council lead by Anderson, who was there when the Reaper slammed into the Citadel, got the rest of the aliens to band together to prepare for war?  If George Bush can get "dozens of countries" to go into Iraq for those non existent weapons of mass destructions, surely the burning carcass of the Reaper in the citadel is more plausible than any fantasy WMD.

 
Cerberus was not magically there to save his body. Liara had to to get his body from the shadow broker and stop him from selling it to the collectors.She is eventually able to get the body and gives it to Cerberus on the off chance they can revive him.

Cerberus is not all powerful they just are not bound by bureaucracy like the governments of the galaxy. Even if Anderson is leading a human controlled council (which only works with one of 4 endings) he still needs to convince the other races to help. Humanity does not have the economic or military power to force the other races into helping, he is still bound by politics. 

Cerberus has people at all levels of alliance command we already knew this. Edi explains how they were able to build a new Normandy . Its a big galaxy and Cerberus has many legit companies that they can hide behind to mask their money flow and there shipments of materials. Building one ship at remote place is easy, especially of it was done in the terminus systems. 

Miranda says that reviving Shepard and building the Normandy was a considerable economic investment. They don't have unlimited resources. The information they have access to is considerable but thats not unexpected. Information is a huge profitable business and the shadow broker is not the only one in it. Cerberus probably has there own agents like the shadow broker and there are information gatherers that may sell there info to both.

[The Gay Warden]

I personally think your entire thread is idiotic.



"Sorry, folks, my word is law."



You don't link aspects of the game? Go cry about it. I'm pretty damn sure BioWare won't make a huge patch fixing these problems just for you.

[Dub_Knight]

sleepy__head wrote...

ArcanistLibram wrote...

Baaaaaawwwwwwwwwww! I don't want to join Cerberus! I don't want to be a Grey Warden! I don't want to fight the Blight! I don't want to join the Spectres! I don't want to be a Jedi! I don't want to be the Hero of Neverwinter! BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!!!!!!

Christ.

Thanks for the constructive feedback.  Thanks for flaming and not bothering to explain why the person you flamed is wrong in thinking the way he did.  Everyone thus far, regardless of whether they agreed or disagreed, gave their input politely and cordially, until you came along.  The forum really need more people like you.  You must have missed the first part of my post where I wanred the trolls away.  Your bridge is elsewhere.  See ya.

I understand perfectly why he said this and, quite frankly, the only post I agree with. Just in case you don't understand what he's saying I'll spell it out for you.

Stop complaining. You got beefs with the game? Don't play it. I'm sure your complaints aren't enough to make you stop playing, but the developers changed the game to suit the requests of people who complained about the first one. No one is ever completely happy with what they get. Be happy they're even going to make ME3 with all the whining you people do.

[stephen13411]

If any of you haven't noticed... when you go to the controls panel in options there are controls for a vehicle set out. Bioware has already hinted about coming out with a vehicle DLC so I'm pretty hopeful. Also I agree with the problems that exist BUT I still think this game was totally worth the time and money I put into it. I enjoyed almost every part of the game (ok yeah except for the planet scanning) and if the developers had focused on these little problems instead of the main game, then we might have had a much less awesome experience.

[Ileanos07]

You wrote, that it is bad, when char in game smoke (I do not), because kids is playing the game....
I guess it has rating 18+ ... Dont see problem

[ODST 3]

Review Grade: C- (see me)

[AtreiyaN7]

I played it Paragon for the most part. Yes, you have to work with Cerberus for a while, but you can stick it to TIM in the end (or take the...practical route). MEANWHILE, I was doing good in a lot of places - or was saving that sick Batarian on Mordin's recruiting mission somehow not an act of mercy just because I'm working with Cerberus? Does it negate stopping that teenager from doing something stupid and throwing his life away on Omega? I was able to do a lot of good things.

As for fuel depots. Actually, it makes a lot of sense. You can't just throw these things around in dangerous areas of space. The only safe spot is near a mass relay - or do you think people should be devoting fleets of ships to protect each one, just so that it's more convenient for you?

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 02 février 2010 - 06:34 .

[ColJones]

You wanted to not work with Cerburus? Do you understand the meaning of a plot. Don't get me wrong in the first game I didn't want to be a spectre, or be the commander of a ship... in fact I would have rather played an inanimate blob of sewage. Why was I not given that choice?!

Seriously, they can only do so much, if you want more then make your own game. Allowing the player not to be part of Cerburus would have easily doubled the amount of time required for producing the game.

Also what is all this about "the ends don't justify the means"? Are you saying that you would rather let billions of people die as opposed to working with a couple softie mercenaries? People are so self righteous these days.

[sleepy__head]

The Gay Warden wrote...

I personally think your entire thread is idiotic.

"Sorry, folks, my word is law."

You don't link aspects of the game? Go cry about it. I'm pretty damn sure BioWare won't make a huge patch fixing these problems just for you.

Let see, so many typical logical fallacies used by those who don't want to bother actually debating the issues, instead just discussing the person.  So lets list them one at a time boys and girls.

1.  Ad hominem.  Check.
2.  Red herring.  Check.
3.  Fallacies of force.  Check.
4.  Bandwagon fallcy.  Check.

Grade : A+.  You received 1000 xp for successfully trolling.  Thank you for your constructive contribution to this discussion.  Now back to our regularly scheduled program.

[Ishmaelsonata]

@OP

I think your statement regarding the total lack of paragon options is a bit shallow. I understand your point about the game not allowing an option in the beginning. But I dont think its a correct assessment of there not being a paragon mode, consider this.

If we consider paragon being, the ends dont justify the means. Paragon focuses on the Means/the process and thus the entire experience of working with Cerebus, NOT whether to join cerebus. If you work with cerebus, and partake upon entirely paragon options, your actions transforms the work of cerebus itself, and from this perspective, its a perfectly justifyable paragon stance: you are working with cerebus, an evil organization whom you dspise, but in doing so, you transform the actions of the organization and the actions of its members in a way that's better off than if you left the organization to its on devises. You're also doing this to save humanity. The means can be justifed and the end could be justified.

So my point is just that, the process of playing as a paragon character in ME2 fullfills the definition of a paragon, being that you're allowed control over the means of action. Focusing on the initial decision seems a shallow interpretation of the paragon/renegade system ME2 has in store.

Modifié par Ishmaelsonata, 02 février 2010 - 07:03 .

[sleepy__head]

Stop complaining. You got beefs with the game? Don't play it.

Oh yes, that is the best approach for the game, its community, and the developers and producers who are in this business to make a living.  Wow, now I understand why they gave us this forum - to not complaining or just quit.  Thank you for your fantastic insight into the best approach as the customers of any services.

[Lukertin]

The "Illusive Man" is meant to conjure up the thought of "Cigarette-Smoking Man" from the X-Files. You know, leader of top secret organization with questionable motivations and goals. So of course he had to be smoking cigarettes, how else would his character work?



Plus, all he does all the time is smoke and drink, and he has that shirt that imitates people who leave their top 2-3 shirt buttons undone to show off their chest hair. TiM probably eats raw steak for breakfast and makes onions cry for fun.



It fits the character. I'll leave it at that.

[elucid07]

sleepy__head wrote...

I am saying that you never have to believe that the End Justify The Means because Cerberus never once forces Shepard to do ANYTHING that goes against his/hers ethics.

Odd.  I believe working with known murderers is against my Shep's ethics.  Is there a choice to not work with Cerberus?  No, I don't think so either.

Good morning sunshine - just letting you know here's your reality check: your prissy little paragon Shepard is just as much a murderer as any other character you run with. In fact, I dare say, your morally sound and ethically spotless paragon Shep has quite a number of kills racked up. Through both games.

Justified, legalised, sanctioned or otherwise - you're still killing a f*ckton of people who are just doing their jobs. That my boy, is murder.