89 réponses à ce sujet

[Stofsk]

RyogaWanderer wrote...

Excuse me? The Citadel from ME1 was just as 'linear' as the one in ME2.

Really? The Citadel in the first game was a perfectly straight line of stairs, one office on the presidium ring, and a mission area? I seem to remember being able to wander around quite a bit in several directions, in several areas. Do scan the keepers again to refresh your memory.

Zakera ward is just as 'non linear' as the wards from the first game. I was pointing out this criticism is baseless.

Oh yeah, and scanning the keepers was such a fun time investment. Gee I sure am sad that the new Citadel doesn't have such complexity. What was Bioware thinking!

And everything was the same, too. All those bases that had the exact same layout, all the planets that had no trees or foilage (even though they were life-bearing worlds) and simply had a different colour scheme for its generic mountainous terrain.

Yes. This bothered me. Slightly. But at least I could drive me Mako around and choose to go here, or there. The generic buildings on planets were also internally consistent. Prefab mass produced for planetary work. Feros is a nice example of a mission area that was more non-linear.

Prefab mass produced and yet there are only ever two designs? No way.

Every area in ME2 looked different. Sure, the presence of crates and so on did telegraph when a battle was about to take place, but people who level this criticism at ME2's feet conveniently forget that ME1 had crates and such the like inside those prefab generic space buildings too.

Rubbish. The skill system was the opposite of great. I need to spend talent points to increase my accuracy with a weapon by 2%? That's 'great'?

It's fan-freakin-tastic compared to 4 max ranks in 4 max skills(if I do the loyalty mission). do I want 2% on my rifle, or maybe I was a little boost in this power. I have 4 points, do I want to dump them all in rifle? split them between it and more health? oh but wait 1 more point in armor gives me the next rank in shield boost. A good skill system is all about personalization and customization. The more choices I can make, the better.

LOL so 'the more choices you can make the better' means cosmetic and useless passive increases in skills? 

Guess what, ME1 was always a shooter with RPG elements, and those RPG elements were incredibly and poorly implemented. Carrying around 150 items is asine.

Wrong.

No, I'm right. Deal with it.

ME1 was an RPG with mediocre shooter elements. Combat is quickly and easily cheesed. If it leaned more towards shooter, there would have been no way to do things like talk yourself out of half of the final battle.

Oh, yeah, convincing Saren to blow his own head off isn't cheesey. :roll: What the christ.

And yes, carrying around 150 items is stupid, why didn't you ever visit the selling portion of a shop?

Who said I didn't? I had 9,999,999 credits. Why go to a shop to sell all this priceless military hardware when I can't even get 1 credit for it?

Oh wait, ME1 was super immersive and had no flaws whatsoever. :roll:

[sos986]

to me, diablo II was a good RPG, to me they moved more in the direction of diablo II



i say me2 = win.

[RyogaWanderer]

ME1 had LOTS of flaws everything from repetitive buildings to the unstable cover system. The fact of it is, it was a better RPG. It was a more immersive world, with stronger impact. It is help up there with the sci-fi greats, and it is one of the few.

Roleplaying is all about immersion and choice. Is this believable? Does that make sense. Wow I want to save this colony. What's through that door? Man that's a cool power I want it to be better. I could forget I was playing a game more often than not.

ME2 has some of these things. But they're hobbled. Shortened. "Streamlined." When in a mission area, with for no sensible reason lacks a map, I can look at a room and know instantly there's going to be a fight. Did I just get HW ammo? yes? probably something big. No? more mooks that go down to 2 headshots. This missions has collectors, probably drones. oh that door is locked, it probably has credits or a plan upgrade. I know this because my mission arrow points the other way. I KNOW I'm playing a game because everything is transparently deliberately placed.

It is so watered down it's pretty laughable. And my example WAS to be cheesy. the nice thing about rpgs is, you get a choice to let your skills be your interaction with the game. The second one lacks this, entirely.

Edit: Also. Zakera ward is a perfect line, where you start at one end, and each area has one entrance and one exit. If you were mapping it, it would be flat (and it is!) Th first game is not like this. and this is a symptom of the entire game.

Modifié par RyogaWanderer, 03 février 2010 - 08:34 .

[Stofsk]

Well then I'm going to have to disagree - ME2 was just as immersive as ME1 was for me, in fact more so. The tiny little touches they added made the immersion greater and the experience better. Walking through the Citadel or Illium and hearing news reports about the wider galaxy made the world feel bigger.



Saying that things were 'deliberately placed' in ME2 is asinine. Like I said above, the exact same criticism can be leveled at ME1, only worse - because everything looks the same because they're using the same exact building layout, you're forced to think the developers in ME1 were also lazy. Everything in ME1 was deliberately placed too. Like how I entered a building and stood outside the door to the next section, knowing that the bad guys were in there. And why should there be a map for non-standard buildings? I never looked at the map in ME1 because ALL THE BUILDINGS WERE THE SAME.



If you didn't like it fine, nobody is going to agree on everything. But don't try and tell me ME1 had immersion and ME2 didn't. The 'carrying 150 items' thing was another example. I'm not even wearing a backpack yet somehow I can fit entire sets of armour, dozens of rifles and ammunition mods in my... pockets? And if I try to sell them, but already have maxed out my credits, those priceless items are worth a flat 0 credits apiece. I'm harping on about this because it quite literally breaks immersion and suspension of disbelief in ME1 for me... and noone who has leveled the same criticism against ME2 can respond to this criticism against ME1.

[loboME2]

ShadyKat wrote...

Use the search function dude. This is getting really old, really fast.

really?? there is a search function?

[loboME2]

stofsk wrote...

Well then I'm going to have to disagree - ME2 was just as immersive as ME1 was for me, in fact more so. The tiny little touches they added made the immersion greater and the experience better. Walking through the Citadel or Illium and hearing news reports about the wider galaxy made the world feel bigger.

The fact that there are so many threads about this says something, doesn't it?

stofsk wrote...
Saying that things were 'deliberately placed' in ME2 is asinine. Like I
said above, the exact same criticism can be leveled at ME1, only worse
- because everything looks the same because they're using the same
exact building layout, you're forced to think the developers in ME1
were also lazy. Everything in ME1 was deliberately placed too. Like how
I entered a building and stood outside the door to the next section,
knowing that the bad guys were in there. And why should there be a map
for non-standard buildings? I never looked at the map in ME1 because
ALL THE BUILDINGS WERE THE SAME.

I believe you may be describing the side missions. The main missions were rather varied...  for the main missions in ME2, once you saw Cover with empty space in front = incoming enemy.

If you didn't like it fine, nobody is going to agree on everything. But don't try and tell me ME1 had immersion and ME2 didn't. The 'carrying 150 items' thing was another example. I'm not even wearing a backpack yet somehow I can fit entire sets of armour, dozens of rifles and ammunition mods in my... pockets? And if I try to sell them, but already have maxed out my credits, those priceless items are worth a flat 0 credits apiece. I'm harping on about this because it quite literally breaks immersion and suspension of disbelief in ME1 for me... and noone who has leveled the same criticism against ME2 can respond to this criticism against ME1.

maybe we have a mass effect pocket? just need another lame entry (same level as heatsink clips) in the codex to make it happen.

Modifié par loboME2, 03 février 2010 - 08:57 .

[Stofsk]

loboME2 wrote...

stofsk wrote...

Well then I'm going to have to disagree - ME2 was just as immersive as ME1 was for me, in fact more so. The tiny little touches they added made the immersion greater and the experience better. Walking through the Citadel or Illium and hearing news reports about the wider galaxy made the world feel bigger.

The fact that there are so many threads about this says something, doesn't it?

Yeah - that people can't see the forest from the trees.

I believe you may be describing the side missions. The main missions were rather varied...  for the main missions in ME2, once you saw Cover with empty space in front = incoming enemy.

People keep telling me this as though this never happened in ME1 - when it did. Every place that a battle took place in ME1 there was something to hide behind. Every place.

maybe we have a mass effect pocket? just need another lame entry (same level as heatsink clips) in the codex to make it happen.

Yeah, because that would really help immersion. :roll:

[atheelogos]

Tobebech1307 wrote...

Well the rpg part of the game is in the dialog, story, skills, side-quest, which are all there....

this

[RyogaWanderer]

stofsk wrote...

Well then I'm going to have to disagree - ME2 was just as immersive as ME1 was for me, in fact more so. The tiny little touches they added made the immersion greater and the experience better. Walking through the Citadel or Illium and hearing news reports about the wider galaxy made the world feel bigger.

Saying that things were 'deliberately placed' in ME2 is asinine. Like I said above, the exact same criticism can be leveled at ME1, only worse - because everything looks the same because they're using the same exact building layout, you're forced to think the developers in ME1 were also lazy. Everything in ME1 was deliberately placed too. Like how I entered a building and stood outside the door to the next section, knowing that the bad guys were in there. And why should there be a map for non-standard buildings? I never looked at the map in ME1 because ALL THE BUILDINGS WERE THE SAME.

If you didn't like it fine, nobody is going to agree on everything. But don't try and tell me ME1 had immersion and ME2 didn't. The 'carrying 150 items' thing was another example. I'm not even wearing a backpack yet somehow I can fit entire sets of armour, dozens of rifles and ammunition mods in my... pockets? And if I try to sell them, but already have maxed out my credits, those priceless items are worth a flat 0 credits apiece. I'm harping on about this because it quite literally breaks immersion and suspension of disbelief in ME1 for me... and noone who has leveled the same criticism against ME2 can respond to this criticism against ME1.

The background world may seem bigger, but the phsycial layout? infinatly smaller.

Maybe I should have used "Transparently Placed." Every single object, room, item in ME2 is placed in such a way that the reason it is there is obviously for gameplay reasons. There's nothing that's just there to be there. That crate? cover. those boxes? that area over there isn't part of the path for you so you can't go. I can't forget I'm playing a game when everything screams at me that I am. Dialogue? Top right? Paragon. Bottom right? rengade. Middle right is lets just go on. middle left? more information. sometimes top or bottom left will elaborate an info point.

Inventories are a stable of the RPG genre. Hitting a hard number limit on money is a realistic eventuality. Ammunition does not exist in the frist game, don't forget. The codex even explains it. The guns' smart targeting system calculates distance to target to determine mass needed to reach with it's mass rail driver. instead of ammunition the gun just shaves off what it needs from an internal block good for thousands and thousands of shots making battle field ammunition concerns moot. Which will bring me to my biggest immersion sticking point, heat clips. but that rant is for another day.

It's obvious the direction they went with ME2, they wanted a shooter. They made it. Unfortunatly they threw the RPG out to do it.

Edit:

People keep telling me this as though this never happened in ME1 - when
it did. Every place that a battle took place in ME1 there was something
to hide behind. Every place.

When I go in a warehouse I expect to see boxes. ME1 I get lots and lots of boxes haphazardly place all around that yes one can use for cover. ME2 we get alien coridors that are empty, unless there's a fight, and then there's centrally placed baricades. Or a clear set of doorways until that one, right after it autosaves, with a pair of tiny boxes that are the exact height for a crouched Shepard to duck behind.

Modifié par RyogaWanderer, 03 février 2010 - 09:17 .

[justinprince]

everyone has an opinion about Mass Effect 2, good or bad this is still an excellent game, and for those who are belly aching about skills and leveling... go back to Mass Effect, look at your level up screen for you particular class... take away charm and intimidate (which are integrated in to Paragon and Renegade meters... as they should be...) take away each weapon that a class has to add skill points to, take away particular armor leveling and integrate your character's resilience to attacks into when their specific class levels up... and how many skills are really left on the screen?



personally I always found it odd how my N7 trained Infiltrator couldn't even hold a damn sniper rifle steady until later in the game... Sheperd is not a rookie but an experienced soldier... thus the skills points to weapon proficiency was purely redundant...



I will stand by my view that ME2 improves upon ME1, don't agree with me? I personally don't give a sh*t, that's why it's an opinion

[Zoe Dedweth]

@ op



Perhaps you have not played far enough yet. You do get shops to buy at, upgrades to research and even different skills to get.



Seriously whats the point in having 12 Odd Skills in the first with four of them being weapon skills, and half the classes just being a hybrid (half/half) other classes ? Don't you prefer your James bond action hero uber soldier to actually be able to hit something ? Also Isn't it better that each class is a little more diversified with a unique skill or two to each class now ? Incidentally if you take out the weapon skills you end up with the same amount of skills in ME2 and in ME1. 8.



Example of infiltrator.

ME1

You would have 10 skills if excluding weapon skills and And including Charm/Intimidate.

In ME2

You charm/intimidate are tied to your conversation options so they still exist - You don't spend skills you choices in conversation unlock more options.

Weapon skill is determined by the players ability to aim.

Still 8 Skills left same as the first. Current infiltrator has the following in ME1:



Fitness

Tactical Armor

Dycryption

Electronics

Damping

First Aid

Infiltrator

Spectre Training

Charm

Intimidate

Shiper Rifles

Pistols



in ME 2 I have:



Incinerate

Cryo Ammo

Disruptor Ammo

Tactical Cloak

AI Hacking

Operative

Fortrification

Warp Ammo

Unity



Hmmmm - So Lets see - no gun skills - as it's down to player skill and no Charm intimidate as that's down to the players choices with conversations granting more paragon/renegade points which open up more options. In addition every power can be evolved into two different types. Doesn't this mean that there are more skills in ME 2 than one ?



BTW - ontop of that there's 2 evolutions of each skill.

[-XcitronX-]

ME2 is good game...

but it needs more rpg in it... I want different armors, weapons, etc for me and my allies as well, not just some small upgrades that give me +2% health

in ME1 driving with Mako was bit boring but not nearly as boring as the scanning system in ME2 ( couldnt they even add some kind fog of war so you would know what you have scanned yet?)

[Stofsk]

RyogaWanderer wrote...

The background world may seem bigger, but the phsycial layout? infinatly smaller.

Quality over quantity.

Maybe I should have used "Transparently Placed." Every single object, room, item in ME2 is placed in such a way that the reason it is there is obviously for gameplay reasons. There's nothing that's just there to be there. That crate? cover. those boxes? that area over there isn't part of the path for you so you can't go. I can't forget I'm playing a game when everything screams at me that I am. Dialogue? Top right? Paragon. Bottom right? rengade. Middle right is lets just go on. middle left? more information. sometimes top or bottom left will elaborate an info point.

Oh my god, like this wasn't in ME1.

Inventories are a stable of the RPG genre. Hitting a hard number limit on money is a realistic eventuality.

You just lost all credibility with me with that stupid statement. Before hitting the 9,999,999 limit in ME1, a X weapon could give me 100K in credits. Once I hit the money limit, it's not even worth 1 credit. It's actually worth 0, because my money doesn't increase.

Describing the inventory system of ME1 as 'realistic' is disingenuous in the extreme. You can't physically carry that much crap around with you, and there is no way you can go from 'this item costs hundreds of thousands of credits now, but 0 credits later' and call it realistic.

Ammunition does not exist in the frist game, don't forget. The codex even explains it. The guns' smart targeting system calculates distance to target to determine mass needed to reach with it's mass rail driver. instead of ammunition the gun just shaves off what it needs from an internal block good for thousands and thousands of shots making battle field ammunition concerns moot. Which will bring me to my biggest immersion sticking point, heat clips. but that rant is for another day.

Don't YOU forget that you can stick two frictionless materials X in any gun of your choice, hold the LMB indefinitely, and never run out of ammo OR overheat your weapon.

You quoted the codex right then. The codex doesn't say you have unlimited ammunition, it only says that ammunition is not a practical concern, but overheating is. But the gun mod system in ME1 was clearly broken, because overheating never became a problem - which is rubbish. The heat sink system is a lot better.

When I go in a warehouse I expect to see boxes. ME1 I get lots and lots of boxes haphazardly place all around that yes one can use for cover. ME2 we get alien coridors that are empty, unless there's a fight, and then there's centrally placed baricades. Or a clear set of doorways until that one, right after it autosaves, with a pair of tiny boxes that are the exact height for a crouched Shepard to duck behind.

Lame. Except you don't go to a warehouse, you go to a goddamn BASE. Those hidden structures on those ME1 planets weren't goddamn warehouses, they were military bases full of pirates and mercs. And they had boxes which were indestructable - which is a goddamn action movie cliche. ME2 at least had fragile crates that if you hid behind, could be destroyed.

I said it elsewhere, but this is a classic example of people failing to see the forest from the trees. You think ME2's environments were deliberately or transparently placed, but forgeting the fact that ME1's was more so, only worse. What's hilarious is that you think ME1 was better in this regard, whereas I see both as bad but ME2 clearly the improvement. At least Bioware is getting us to fight in many different places, not the same 'prefab' building over and over again.

Modifié par stofsk, 03 février 2010 - 10:14 .

[Vympel1]

I personally loved the ME1 inventory system, all that depth, what with the ten types of who knows how many guns that all looked the same and had minor differences in stats which you completely ignored once you got Spectre weapons anyway, and which became a massive nuisance for the rest of the game everytime you hit "I".

[RyogaWanderer]

Quality over quantity.

I would prefer a world to a path.

Oh my god, like this wasn't in ME1.

When I could drive or walk pretty much wherever I wanted, it didn't punch me in the face every half a second. The only part of ME1 where I felt I was trapped on a linear path was the last mission on Ilos.

You just lost all credibility with me with that stupid statement. Before hitting the 9,999,999 limit in ME1, a X weapon could give me 100K in credits. Once I hit the money limit, it's not even worth 1 credit. It's actually worth 0, because my money doesn't increase.



Describing the inventory system of ME1 as 'realistic' is disingenuous in the extreme. You can't physically carry that much crap around with you, and there is no way you can go from 'this item costs hundreds of thousands of credits now, but 0 credits later' and call it realistic.

As a programming requirement it has to have a final number or eventually something will break down. they could set it at 999 Trillion, and you could still hit that cap. Will you complain that after 3 playthroughs of ME2 you hit the money cap? I also never stated it was realistic. It is a staple of the RPG series. and at least I could sell things I gathered from my enemies. ME2 all they drop are..heat clips..

Don't YOU forget that you can stick two frictionless materials X in any gun of your choice, hold the LMB indefinitely, and never run out of ammo OR overheat your weapon.



You quoted the codex right then. The codex doesn't say you have unlimited ammunition, it only says that ammunition is not a practical concern, but overheating is. But the gun mod system in ME1 was clearly broken, because overheating never became a problem - which is rubbish. The heat sink system is a lot better.

The heat sink system is INSANE. It is quite possibly my biggest sticking point with the game. Why in the name of god would a soldier, ANY soldier, want to lose a gun that will ALWAYS be able to fire? In the codex they state that heat clips reduce heat making the guns fire faster. If the first game is cannon, it's shown that you can mod it to the point where heat is not a concern. If you do not have heat clips, you cannot fire the weapon. What soldier/merc/ANYONE would give up infinite firing with a minor problem for the reality of going from having a gun to having a fancy gun-shaped club? Or why is it if heat clips are universal, that I can run out of shots for a specific gun? why not if I wanted to, take the ones out of my SMG and put them in my far superior assault rifle? Heat clips are quite possibly the biggest piece of evidence that they were willing to sacrifice anything on the altar of making a shooter first, and an RPG second.

Lame. Except you don't go to a warehouse, you go to a goddamn BASE. Those hidden structures on those ME1 planets weren't goddamn warehouses, they were military bases full of pirates and mercs. And they had boxes which were indestructable - which is a goddamn action movie cliche. ME2 at least had fragile crates that if you hid behind, could be destroyed.

More than one was specifically called a warehouse. Mostly on planets that had colonists or scientists as opposed to military bases. 99% of cover in ME2 is indestructible boxes. the one of 2 fragile crates are NEVER considered for cover.

I said it elsewhere, but this is a classic example of people failing to see the forest from the trees. You think ME2's environments were deliberately or transparently placed, but forgeting the fact that ME1's was more so, only worse. What's hilarious is that you think ME1 was better in this regard, whereas I see both as bad but ME2 clearly the improvement. At least Bioware is getting us to fight in many different places, not the same 'prefab' building over and over again.

I am not forgetting, Trust me, I KNOW I was walking into the same building a hundred times, except for story line missions. But the thing is, I didn't CARE. they told me outright in the codex that these are prefabs, built specifically to be the exact same thing so they would have lots of them to do planetary work. It was INTERNALLY CONSISTENT which goes a looooong way to making a world believable. Mass Effect NEVER pounded me in the face that I was taking a path, there were rare instance in a destroyed station that this stair would be blocked by debris. Usually instead it would a corridor, or a room with doors and walls. I could look at a map and see a layout. Mass Effect 2 there's these wide open environments and beautifully designed areas, that all have conveniently placed boxes blocking me from going down that walkway. A wall, I do not see. a walkway I am barred from going down in every room? I start noticing.



I like that they made all kinds of new environments to fight in. A lot of the areas are really cool, like the floating platforms of the collectors, or the moving conveyor belt covers in the warehouse. I just wish they had done a better job of covering up the fact that they were keeping me on this one single path.