129 réponses à ce sujet

[Jackal904]

Jaklar wrote...

Bioware is one of a select number of game companies that receives a
+3 modifier in review scores.

Stopped reading right there... You're just another crazy hardcore rpg fanatic who prefers rpg's where you have to remember to drink water. Gtfo, k thx.

[obie191970]

Jackal904 wrote...

Jaklar wrote...

Bioware is one of a select number of game companies that receives a
+3 modifier in review scores.

Stopped reading right there... You're just another crazy hardcore rpg fanatic who prefers rpg's where you have to remember to drink water. Gtfo, k thx.

And fly around space for 5 hours in real time?

[Spaghetti_Ninja]

Phobius9 wrote...

Hmmm, I agree with the whole no alien language thing, and the bit about little interaction with the environment. However calling it "a complete mess, from top-to-bottom and not a product worthy of Bioware’s heritage" is a little extreme.

Except of course that there IS alien language, and the issue of translation IS explained in the game.

Honestly, this whole article is a load of crap, and it's not worthy getting fussed over. I've seen better structured and backed up whine posts on this forum, and I'm not kidding. The author of that article is a failure.

[Svest]

The argument that ME2 is dumbed down fails because it assumes that those aspects in ME1 required any intelligence to begin with. There was no skill or thought put into choosing weapons and leveling up. It was always obvious which weapon was better, and there was no real choice in skills because you were given enough points to max just about everything anyways. That's not choice, that's just illusion of choice. Its also a rather poor illusion that you would have to be pretty dumb not to see through yourself.



If anything, ME1 is far more "dumbed down" than ME2. In ME1, on insanity, I could run into the middle of a room full of enemies completely ignoring their shooting at me while I killed each of them in turn. Or I could charge into the middle of the same room and have them all floating in air in a matter of seconds so I could kill them at my leisure. Try that in ME2 and see how far you get.

[Bhirava]

Isnt calling the game a mess a bit extreme?

[mattp420]

I wish they still made role-playing games like they used to. These days it's all "big choices" and "visceral combat".

[Jackal904]

Svest wrote...

The argument that ME2 is dumbed down fails because it assumes that those aspects in ME1 required any intelligence to begin with. There was no skill or thought put into choosing weapons and leveling up. It was always obvious which weapon was better, and there was no real choice in skills because you were given enough points to max just about everything anyways. That's not choice, that's just illusion of choice. Its also a rather poor illusion that you would have to be pretty dumb not to see through yourself.

If anything, ME1 is far more "dumbed down" than ME2. In ME1, on insanity, I could run into the middle of a room full of enemies completely ignoring their shooting at me while I killed each of them in turn. Or I could charge into the middle of the same room and have them all floating in air in a matter of seconds so I could kill them at my leisure. Try that in ME2 and see how far you get.

My good sir you have hit the nail dead on the head. This is so true. Every hardcore rpg nut needs to read your post. If I could give you a gold medal right now I would .

[Kohaku]

mattp420 wrote...

I wish they still made role-playing games like they used to. These days it's all "big choices" and "visceral combat".

I miss my damn turn-based battles! (I love turn-based but still...)

@Ryuuichi009 - I know right. You know those topics will get into theatrics in short order.

Modifié par Kerridan Kaiba, 02 février 2010 - 06:27 .

[Twitchmonkey]

Jackal904 wrote...
Stopped reading right there... You're just another crazy hardcore rpg fanatic who prefers rpg's where you have to remember to drink water. Gtfo, k thx.

Yep, as soon as I read that nonsense I knew that there was no value to be had from the whole article. Bioware has made some of the greatest games of the last decade, to act like they've all been slightly above average is just idiotic.

[obie191970]

Svest wrote...

The argument that ME2 is dumbed down fails because it assumes that those aspects in ME1 required any intelligence to begin with. There was no skill or thought put into choosing weapons and leveling up. It was always obvious which weapon was better, and there was no real choice in skills because you were given enough points to max just about everything anyways. That's not choice, that's just illusion of choice. Its also a rather poor illusion that you would have to be pretty dumb not to see through yourself.

If anything, ME1 is far more "dumbed down" than ME2. In ME1, on insanity, I could run into the middle of a room full of enemies completely ignoring their shooting at me while I killed each of them in turn. Or I could charge into the middle of the same room and have them all floating in air in a matter of seconds so I could kill them at my leisure. Try that in ME2 and see how far you get.

This is quite true.  Never once in ME1 did you have to make a tough decision about which armor to wear or which gun to use.  You never had to make a tough choice between a discrepancy between accuracy and damage or shield stregth vs. defense.  There was always a clear cut winner so the choice was made already for you.  Well put, Svest.

[Spaghetti_Ninja]

Svest wrote...

The argument that ME2 is dumbed down fails because it assumes that those aspects in ME1 required any intelligence to begin with. There was no skill or thought put into choosing weapons and leveling up. It was always obvious which weapon was better, and there was no real choice in skills because you were given enough points to max just about everything anyways. That's not choice, that's just illusion of choice. Its also a rather poor illusion that you would have to be pretty dumb not to see through yourself.

If anything, ME1 is far more "dumbed down" than ME2. In ME1, on insanity, I could run into the middle of a room full of enemies completely ignoring their shooting at me while I killed each of them in turn. Or I could charge into the middle of the same room and have them all floating in air in a matter of seconds so I could kill them at my leisure. Try that in ME2 and see how far you get.

Yeah, this.

Every time I read ''they dumbed down ME1'' I think: WHO THE HELL ARE THESE PEOPLE who thought Mass Effect 1 was the pinnacle of RPG gaming? It wasn't. The inventory system was horrible, weapon and armour customization was bland and not needed to succeed at the game (on any difficulty) and the choice of armours was laughable. So you could put them on party members, big whoop. Most of them didn't fit that well, like that pink monstrosity, or the bland black Kaidan-outfit. It's better in ME2.

And once you get Spectre weapons, you are set, the rest is garbage. Same with the armours, get Predator L, game over, no further adjustments needed, have fun sailing through the game. Of course, if you were a biotic, just spam singlularity and throw, and go make a sandwich or something. Yeah, what a totally deep RPG system.

Did I mention the useless passive bonus skill tree yet? It's basically the same as in ME2, except 70% of the ''skills'' are redundant and barely affect the game. As for the rest, oh yeah, you need to sink points into hacking and electronics to open one million chests filled with crap, that you can sell off one piece at a time. You need to sink points into Charm. You need to sink points into your weapon. You need to sink points into your First Aid. WHY have a skill system to begin with? MASS EFFECT 2 DID IT BETTER. Skills are actually worthwhile, if fewer in number, thank God, and evolve at the end.

[The Chosen Predator]

I like reviews like this because in life if you have to many "YES MEN" behind you, you can never improve.

[Svest]

Jackal904 wrote...

My good sir you have hit the nail dead on the head. This is so true. Every hardcore rpg nut needs to read your post. If I could give you a gold medal right now I would .

I consider myself a hardcore RPG nut.  I've probably played a grand total of 2 shooters in the past 10 years (not counting ME).  While I've played almost every major RPG that has come out in that time.  That actually is what makes it easy to tell the difference between a system that gives you real choice or just illusion.  ME1 (and ME2) just gives you illusion of choice (this is not counting story choices, purely character building choices) and its not a very good illusion too.  That, of course, doesn't mean that I can't appreciate them for what they are.  ME1 was one of my favorite games ever, but I'm liking ME2 even more.

Edit: Also, just because I love a game doesn't mean it doesn't have flaws or that there's not room for improvement.  I could write a very long list of things that would make ME2 a better game IMO.  No game is ever perfect.  In the end though, all that matters is if I'm happy with the money and time I have spent on the game.  For me so far that is a very big yes.

Modifié par Svest, 02 février 2010 - 06:40 .

[ABCoLD]

I agree with a number of points the author made in his article, and I disagree with a number of points as well.  Rather than simply dash out a random paragraph I thought I'd address each point.

Mako Gone = Great, Planet Survey = Bad
Yes, completely agree, it's a horrible idea.  I don't agree with his ideas for fixing it mostly... what I'd like to see happen (and what could happen with DLC for ME2) is that the four elements be integrated into the economy.   Be able to buy and sell 1 unit of a resource for 1 credit, for Eezo make it 3 credits.  This allows those that want to concentrate on combat a chance to purchase the elements they don't find, and those that like it a cash incentive.

The British Romans Effect (Aliens speak english)
Completely disagree, we don't see subtitles because Shepard doesn't speak Turian. Shepard knows english and his Omni-tool translates for him on the fly for the rest.  (I forget if this was in a ME1 Codex or ME2, but it's in there.)  This isn't a simplification issue, but an accessiblility issue, and it's fine the way it is.

Awful Combat Stages
I... agree and disagree.  I could always tell when I was entering a 'combat room' in ME2, but it was such a vast improvement over the first game that I can forgive them.

Log Books/Recordings & Exposition
Completely disagree, have no idea where he's coming from here.

Bioware Still Searching for Effective Interface
I can see where he's coming from, and I agree and disagree.  The hologram on the side of the gun for showing what sort of ammo you're using is ludicrous, as I normally can't see it on my screen over shepard's shoulder!  The power menus are easy to understand but the hotkeys are a mess on the 360.  To say they simplified upgrades by taking them off the weapons and consolidating them just made thing more confusing as they took the garbled junk out of an inventory system and left it a pile of garbled junk on the researched upgrades screen.

Too Little Interaction with Environment
Again this is an agree/disagree point.  I really wish there was more to do with the environment, but oh dear god I love my little blue rectangles of love.  They're the only thing that stops me from going nuts.

Merchants & Stores
I just hate that they dumbed down the equipment system in the game.  I don't mind buying trinkets and doodads, but really... was it necessary to remove damage ratings from weapons?  I don't know what does more damage than what, how much damage it does or anything.  I know that I add a bunch of damage to my guns, but I don't know how that materially affects them, I know I have numbers listed for my health and shields... but without knowing how much damage I or my enemy are doing they're fairly meaningless.  I just can't stand the dumbed down inventory interface and lack of items at stores.  (That being said, with the state of minifacturing the way it is, I can understand why you can't sell back equipment to merchants... but why not be able to sell raw materials to them?!)

Repetitive Time Fillers (Hacking Minigame)
Completely agree that this needs to be reigned in and there need to be more creative ways to interact with the environment to gain money.

Mission Arcs (Ally+Loyalty Mission=New Power/Costume = Rinse&Repeat)
Agree, completely agree and agree some more.  While I don't dislike the whole system, it's fairly obvious what's happening from the second time you do it.  You never have to do more than one loyalty mission, they all play pretty much the same, and after tea and hugs afterwards you gain a person's loyalty.  You don't ever have to pay attention to this after you've done it once or twice.

False Sense of Complexity (Tactical depth)
Yeah, there's basically no tactical depth to this game even on the highest difficulty.  Higher difficulties simply mean spending more time crouching behind cover and less time throwing all your ammo at the enemies.  I don't know what could be done to improve this though.... this is how all shooters are.

[jedierick]

Obviously there are going to be people who dont like the game, and they are going to be vocal about it. A lot of people had day 1 problems with cerberus, but I dont see how that effects the game itself. Picking on the fact that all aliens look human, and have human mannerisms, in my opinion is incorrect as well, if you take it out of the context of the game, sure, but if you are thinking from the game perspective, I would have to say that humans look like the aliens, and have alien mannerisms. Humans were not around as long as aliens in the ME galaxy. Alien language is a waste of time IMO, if you create an entire language and have the aliens speak only in that language, you have to explain how Shepard can understand them, I would rather just hear the aliens speak in a language I can understand. The article goes on and on about he thinks the game will improve, but I think the game is a great, fun, and entertaining game. If you dont like it then that sucks, but I find it funny how many people who didnt like it only have bad things to say about it.

[Twitchmonkey]

The Chosen Predator wrote...

I like reviews like this because in life if you have to many "YES MEN" behind you, you can never improve.

A biased, uninformed "No Man" is no more useful than a "Yes Man". There is perhaps something for BW to learn from the issues people are having with ME2, but from this guy that thinks that BW games are merely adequate and get points handed to them? They can't get anything valuable from this idiot.

[Jontonif]

I can't understand these complaints...."reading article"..........



...Ye well, I actually on the article to 90% and I think that's some things that need improvement for ME3!



ME2 is still though maybe GOTY because of the interaction between characters..!

[Solid N7]

again I really admire bioware to deal with the most freaky fans out there if I was bioware I perm ban these whinners and trolls.

[Karathossen]

The combat situations being predictable is a good point, as is the economic system comment. I also miss gearing my troops up with armor and weapons that you find/loot/buy on your way through the story. In my opinion that's central in RPG's. Other than that the article seems like an incredible trolling attempt; the nitpicking is just too obvious (Codex for example, what?!)

Four things make an RPG for me:
- Your choice on gear and skillsets
- Your character's choices
- Your teammate's choices
- World changes due to said choices

I loved ME2 to bits all the way through, but those things (and the aforementioned predictable combat and largely irrelevant economic system in the galaxy) are the things that bothered me a little. In that respect I think you could call ME2 "dumbed down" from an RPG point of view. Then again as others pointed out on the last pages, that's just someone's opinion and doesn't make it fact.

BioWare hasn't made a perfect game, but if they had then they wouldn't have anything more to do, right? If you reach perfection, there's nothing new or interesting to do for the next game. I hope BioWare keeps trying, but never succeeds.

Looking forward to ME3 regardless. I have faith in the fact that BioWare is a company that listens to concerns and changes things - just look what they improved from ME1. I might be a tad naive and fanboy-ish in this respect, but I honestly think BioWare do care about their own stories even if they are a large company that makes tons of money.

</End Rant>

Modifié par Karathossen, 02 février 2010 - 06:41 .

[Grand_Commander13]

Some of the complaints are very weak (the aliens are no less alien than the aliens of Star Wars, and the English speaking has an in-universe explanation which I prefer to the idea of a unified asari language), but DANG do some ring true. The combat stages ARE obviously placed with arbitrary cover and I'm getting tired of people writing things down they shouldn't.

[Twitchmonkey]

Grand_Commander13 wrote...

Some of the complaints are very weak (the aliens are no less alien than the aliens of Star Wars, and the English speaking has an in-universe explanation which I prefer to the idea of a unified asari language), but DANG do some ring true. The combat stages ARE obviously placed with arbitrary cover and I'm getting tired of people writing things down they shouldn't.

Was this any different in ME1? I remember many an area that was filled with obvious and conveinently placed barriers. The only real exception I can remember was Chora's Den. That functioned well as both a bar and a combat area.

[Karathossen]

ABCoLD wrote...

Merchants & Stores
I just hate that they dumbed down the equipment system in the game.  I don't mind buying trinkets and doodads, but really... was it necessary to remove damage ratings from weapons?  I don't know what does more damage than what, how much damage it does or anything.  I know that I add a bunch of damage to my guns, but I don't know how that materially affects them, I know I have numbers listed for my health and shields... but without knowing how much damage I or my enemy are doing they're fairly meaningless.  I just can't stand the dumbed down inventory interface and lack of items at stores.  (That being said, with the state of minifacturing the way it is, I can understand why you can't sell back equipment to merchants... but why not be able to sell raw materials to them?!)

This!

A thousand times this!

It's not an RPG without damage ratings on weapons, armor and bonus stats on clothing, and buying tons of doodads and trinkets of questionable efficiency and extremely questionable price.

[badmammajamma04]

First of all I apologize for the wall- just thought this was a good place to summarize my opinions!



I did think there were some very good points in that review. Despite my believing the game is still awesome, I was a little disappointed in a few ways upon learning about certain changes:

- I'm less sensitive to the aliens all speaking English because it's at least been covered in a ME1 codex entry, and it's just easier for me to look past. However, my butthole did pucker up when I heard the Collector General speak English...If a species is rare enough to be believed a myth it would be that much harder to study the language and develop translators for it.

- The upgrade system is still a little weird. I'm not big on the "research an upgrade and it automatically gets applied to all applicable people" idea because it takes away from my choice to equip specific items. You could do this in ME1, there were just too many item variations (such as weapon ranks, not models) that one would quickly become obsolete. I would have enjoyed seeing the same system, perhaps with fewer choices so it was a bigger deal to find a superior item and you still had the option to tactically equip your squad. ...As long as they didn't use the same ME1 inventory system to manage them, that's cool with me.

- ...Which brings me to the exploration/scanning. Once I realized I didn't need to strip-mine every planet it was less of an issue, but if you don't realize that, it becomes a drain on credits since you have to repeatedly go on probe runs and also must buy the fuel to fund said probe runs. But if you have waaay more resources than you need, you can't sell them. Without a 'selling' system your only source of income is missions. And without any 'loot' or sellable items (which would be composed of a smaller yet more important selection of weapons/upgrades) it makes merchants less interesting. This isn't too bad, but those 30K extra units of Iridium and Pallanium should be worth something, right? I also think the new galaxy map is too cartoonish. I liked the ME1 map more as it felt like a more serious navigational tool. I like the pre-ME1 galaxy map the most because it took the navigational tool and added a substantial amount of beauty to exploring the galaxy which is a major draw for many potential players.

- I agree the loyalty quests should 'jump out at you' rather than their existence being predictable. This touches on the bigger issue of surprise and mission predictability. in ME1 I loved how random terminals/datapads would give you clues to uncharted worlds (which I miss exploring, even in their lifelessness). Landing on an uncharted world and finding a merc base that promptly PWNS you because you didn't expect all those snipers to be hiding over that next canyon was cool. And I miss the days of KOTOR when there would be random conflicts that would surprise, ambush or track you down at unknown times/places.



***- The one thing he mentioned that scared me the most was his improvement suggestion for planet scanning. Economic model?? Investing in mines and factories?? Noooo! That's not why you're there! That cartoon-ish planet kinda looks interesting! I want to get a closer look! Let me land on it!

[eriaa]

The guy is a troll...or the game just isn't the game for him. Not every game can please every person. I'm sure if I said I didn't like Star Craft I would get flamed...but it's just not my kind of game, and I leave it at that and move on.

The game has shipped over 2 million copies, that's far from a failure. The user scores are just as good as the critic scores, which says the critics are on par with the users. Are some critics biased? Sure, but I think this game is deserving of the scores they got.

I give Bioware props for stepping outside their comfort zone. They could have easily rehashed the first game, dropped down the story, put in some new races and planets, and called it a day. Instead they listened to feedback, and made a major overhaul of the game. As great as Dragon Age is, if the expansion or the squeal don't bring anything new and ground breaking to the table, I will be turned off from it.