86 réponses à ce sujet

[jlb524]

Wow! So many people can't appreciate subtleties and nuances. People only love you when they are throwing themselves at you....riiiight.

[hawat333]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

An easy choice really. At least in the case of Ash/Kaidan. They really dropped the ball when it was tossed to them.

Really? How did you react when you learned that Shepard will work with Cerberus.
I don't know about you specifically of course, it's a general question. Because I remember half the forums went totally nuts. Even more nuts than Jack on a bad monday morning when she realizes there's no coffee.

Just because they aren't like "oh, it's so good to see you, let's go and find the bed", it doesn't mean they dropped the ball. In fact, it was much more human reaction than anyone else's in the game.
What did the LI know? That Shepard is dead. He/she was grieving his/her love for two years. Then the forgotten beloved suddenly reappears, working with Cerberus without even leaving a message, that says "hey, I'm alive". (Well, we couldn't leave a message, but it doesn't change the fact, that the reunion was sudden and under discomforting circumstances.)
Their reaction is completely understandable.

[Badpie]

jlb524 wrote...

Wow! So many people can't appreciate subtleties and nuances. People only love you when they are throwing themselves at you....riiiight.

Maybe some peoples' Shepards need to get over themselves. 

[Eumerin]

Imagine that your Significant Other, that you thought dead for the last couple of years and whom you haven't really had much luck getting over, shows up alive and well.

You're going to be a little annoyed over why they didn't so much as e-mail you during that time period.


Then imagine that they're wearing a swastika.


That's roughly the situation that Kaiden/Ashley find themselves in.

[Cutlass Jack]

hawat333 wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...

An easy choice really. At least in the case of Ash/Kaidan. They really dropped the ball when it was tossed to them.

Really? How did you react when you learned that Shepard will work with Cerberus.
I don't know about you specifically of course, it's a general question. Because I remember half the forums went totally nuts. Even more nuts than Jack on a bad monday morning when she realizes there's no coffee.

Just because they aren't like "oh, it's so good to see you, let's go and find the bed", it doesn't mean they dropped the ball. In fact, it was much more human reaction than anyone else's in the game.
What did the LI know? That Shepard is dead. He/she was grieving his/her love for two years. Then the forgotten beloved suddenly reappears, working with Cerberus without even leaving a message, that says "hey, I'm alive". (Well, we couldn't leave a message, but it doesn't change the fact, that the reunion was sudden and under discomforting circumstances.)
Their reaction is completely understandable.

Tali was able to figure out that I was really me within a sentence.

As for my own reaction on learning I'd be working with Cerebus? Pure distrust of them. Thats why from the get-go I wanted to get my own people on board the Normandy. Those I knew I could trust to watch my back. Thats the ball that was dropped by Kaidan/Ashley, but not by Tali/Garrus. Wrex/Liara were special cases that I felt were forgivable for not coming along.

If they Kaidan/Ash truly knew me as I thought they did, they'd have given me the benefit of the doubt on Horizon. Especially after I just rescued the colony.

[Commisar_V]

Eumerin wrote...

You're going to be a little annoyed over why they didn't so much as e-mail you during that time period.

Bad Wi-Fi in hell.

[DarthCaine]

The ME1 romance was the fling, not the ME2 romance (Tali and Jack obviously fall in love with you)

[Badpie]

DarthCaine wrote...

The ME1 romance was the fling, not the ME2 romance (Tali and Jack obviously fall in love with you)

Based on this statement I don't believe you even played ME1.

[Cutlass Jack]

justinnstuff wrote...

Yeah really. It's like you disappear for 2 years but they're supposed to just drop everything and pretend nothing ever happened.

Don't confuse yourself. I don't have a problem with either one of them moving on with their lives, having other romances or whatever. I don't blame them. I was dead. 

I do have them problem about giving me crap when I come to rescue them and not giving me the benefit of the doubt...especially when I show up to rescue them in a manner that was completely consistent with how I met Ashley in the first place. Its a friendship/trust issue, not a romance one.

[The Governator]

ReubenLiew wrote...

"Is that all you can say to me after 2 years?"
I was dead, you stupid cow.

Not particularly pithy, but hella funny. 

[DarthCaine]

Badpie wrote...

DarthCaine wrote...

The ME1 romance was the fling, not the ME2 romance (Tali and Jack obviously fall in love with you)

Based on this statement I don't believe you even played ME1.

Hah, I see it this way. Your ME1 LI only slept with you 'cos they thought they were about to die
Ashley was just flirting with you, it was just a fling, she totally blows you off in ME2
Liara maybe loved Shepard, but after ME1 she totally forgot about him
Kaidan is emo and maybe he still loves Shepard

[Badpie]

DarthCaine wrote...

Badpie wrote...

DarthCaine wrote...

The ME1 romance was the fling, not the ME2 romance (Tali and Jack obviously fall in love with you)

Based on this statement I don't believe you even played ME1.

Hah, I see it this way. Your ME1 LI only slept with you 'cos they thought they were about to die
Ashley was just flirting with you, it was just a fling, she totally blows you off in ME2
Liara maybe loved Shepard, but after ME1 she totally forgot about him
Kaidan is emo and maybe he still loves Shepard

I can see wanting to role play it that way except that there's so much evidence to dispute that - like Ash telling Shepard she loved him and that they "had something real."  I don't know of any one night stands that have those characteristics.

Modifié par Badpie, 02 février 2010 - 08:32 .

[themaxzero]

ReubenLiew wrote...

"Is that all you can say to me after 2 years?"
I was dead, you stupid cow.

To be honest I felt the same way.

I'm trying to explain how i'm saving the Galaxy (again) and all Ash is going on about is 'Cerberus! Cerberus!'

That fact that I was dead for 2 years didn't even seem to register.

The fact is though I preferred Tali in ME 1 so it all worked out for me.

Modifié par themaxzero, 02 février 2010 - 08:34 .

[Badpie]

themaxzero wrote...

ReubenLiew wrote...

"Is that all you can say to me after 2 years?"
I was dead, you stupid cow.

To be honest I felt the same way.

I'm trying to explain how i'm saving the Galaxy (again) and all Ash is going on about is 'Cerberus! Cerberus!'

That fact that I was dead for 2 years didn't even seem to register.

Admittedly, not a whole lot registered for Ash in that moment.  She was dealing with a wall of WTF?!  and handled it badly, which she apologizes for in her email.  To be fair, both she and Shepard handled it badly.

[Eumerin]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

I do have them problem about giving me crap when I come to rescue them and not giving me the benefit of the doubt...especially when I show up to rescue them in a manner that was completely consistent with how I met Ashley in the first place. Its a friendship/trust issue, not a romance one.

You forgot about the great big swastika that you're now wearing on your arm (figuratively speaking).

When you recruit Tali, she tells you that she originally thought that you were undercover - which is presumably why she reacted as nicely as she did the first time that you ran into her.  Then the extra time between the first meeting and recruitment gave her a chance to wrap her head around the fact that you were working with Cerberus.  Garuss was trapped and needed your help just to stay alive.  And he's always been more of an "ends" guy than a "means" guy.  That's why the two of them react as well as they do.

The single biggest thing that Bioware dropped the ball on plot-wise, imo, is that they failed to remind players just how evil Cerberus is.  iirc, one of the questions that you get asked during the impromptu interview with Miranda and Jacob is about your background - which included the Thresher Maw attack on Akuze in the case of my Sole Survivor.  If you'd found Toombs and Wayne in the first game, Bioware should have included a dialogue option where Shepard indicates that he knows that Cerberus was responsible for the Thresher Maw attack.

I'm hoping that one of the DLCs will have Shepard investigating something truly heinous and then discovering that it's a Cerberus op and being forced to choose whether to allow it to continue or to do the right thing and shut it down.  Cerberus may have many decent people in it, but the organization itself is evil and it looks like a lot of players need to be reminded of that.

[Frederik Mescher]

:?

[ratzerman]

DarthCaine wrote...

Liara maybe loved Shepard, but after ME1 she totally forgot about him.

Forgot about him, huh?  LOL.... If that's what you want to think, go right ahead.  But it has no basis in story canon.

[Badpie]

Eumerin wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...

I do have them problem about giving me crap when I come to rescue them and not giving me the benefit of the doubt...especially when I show up to rescue them in a manner that was completely consistent with how I met Ashley in the first place. Its a friendship/trust issue, not a romance one.

You forgot about the great big swastika that you're now wearing on your arm (figuratively speaking).

When you recruit Tali, she tells you that she originally thought that you were undercover - which is presumably why she reacted as nicely as she did the first time that you ran into her.  Then the extra time between the first meeting and recruitment gave her a chance to wrap her head around the fact that you were working with Cerberus.  Garuss was trapped and needed your help just to stay alive.  And he's always been more of an "ends" guy than a "means" guy.  That's why the two of them react as well as they do.

The single biggest thing that Bioware dropped the ball on plot-wise, imo, is that they failed to remind players just how evil Cerberus is.  iirc, one of the questions that you get asked during the impromptu interview with Miranda and Jacob is about your background - which included the Thresher Maw attack on Akuze in the case of my Sole Survivor.  If you'd found Toombs and Wayne in the first game, Bioware should have included a dialogue option where Shepard indicates that he knows that Cerberus was responsible for the Thresher Maw attack.

I'm hoping that one of the DLCs will have Shepard investigating something truly heinous and then discovering that it's a Cerberus op and being forced to choose whether to allow it to continue or to do the right thing and shut it down.  Cerberus may have many decent people in it, but the organization itself is evil and it looks like a lot of players need to be reminded of that.

YES.  I kept waiting for someone, something to remind us of how ****ING AWFUL Cerberus was.  But even Shepard (my sole survivor Shepard to boot) was like "Hey it's not ideal, but SURE!  Hey there Cerberus!"  You can only express very little contempt with them.  This has been bothering me from the beginning.  It's the only thing I thought Bioware dropped the ball on.

Modifié par Badpie, 02 février 2010 - 08:48 .

[Cutlass Jack]

Eumerin wrote...

Cutlass Jack wrote...

I do have them problem about giving me crap when I come to rescue them and not giving me the benefit of the doubt...especially when I show up to rescue them in a manner that was completely consistent with how I met Ashley in the first place. Its a friendship/trust issue, not a romance one.

You forgot about the great big swastika that you're now wearing on your arm (figuratively speaking).

When you recruit Tali, she tells you that she originally thought that you were undercover - which is presumably why she reacted as nicely as she did the first time that you ran into her.  Then the extra time between the first meeting and recruitment gave her a chance to wrap her head around the fact that you were working with Cerberus.  Garuss was trapped and needed your help just to stay alive.  And he's always been more of an "ends" guy than a "means" guy.  That's why the two of them react as well as they do.

The single biggest thing that Bioware dropped the ball on plot-wise, imo, is that they failed to remind players just how evil Cerberus is.  iirc, one of the questions that you get asked during the impromptu interview with Miranda and Jacob is about your background - which included the Thresher Maw attack on Akuze in the case of my Sole Survivor.  If you'd found Toombs and Wayne in the first game, Bioware should have included a dialogue option where Shepard indicates that he knows that Cerberus was responsible for the Thresher Maw attack.

I'm hoping that one of the DLCs will have Shepard investigating something truly heinous and then discovering that it's a Cerberus op and being forced to choose whether to allow it to continue or to do the right thing and shut it down.  Cerberus may have many decent people in it, but the organization itself is evil and it looks like a lot of players need to be reminded of that.

Huge, huge stretch where the swastika comment is concerned. I wasn't wearing a cerberus uniform, nor did I have any cerberus personnel in my team when she saw me (Had Grunt and Mordin). My only symbol was the 'N7' which was from the time we served together.

Now compare that with the Tali meeting where I actually had both Jacob and Miranda (no choice). Tali completely trusted me, even to the point of warning me when her own team went off the plan. And the only reason she didn't come with you right then is because she had unfinished business. She says later how much she wished she came with you right away, and even her logs continually mention how she wishes you were with her.

And they did cover exactly how bad some of the Cerberus operations were. Jack's quest was the most obvious one, but they also covered the operations you shut down in ME1 during conversations.

[Eumerin]

Cutlass Jack wrote...
Huge, huge stretch where the swastika comment is concerned. I wasn't wearing a cerberus uniform, nor did I have any cerberus personnel in my team when she saw me (Had Grunt and Mordin). My only symbol was the 'N7' which was from the time we served together.

No, it's not a stretch.  The symbol's on your armor, iirc.  And Kaiden/Ashley was told beforehand that you were believed to be working for Cerberus.  So even without the symbol, he/she KNOWS.

Now compare that with the Tali meeting where I actually had both Jacob and Miranda (no choice). Tali completely trusted me, even to the point of warning me when her own team went off the plan. And the only reason she didn't come with you right then is because she had unfinished business. She says later how much she wished she came with you right away, and even her logs continually mention how she wishes you were with her.

After you recruit Tali, when she's meeting with Shepard and Jacob, she specifically tells you that she thought you were undercover to blow the organization up (she then offers to loan you a grenade if you decide to go ahead and do so ).  She might not have been as pleased to see you if that hadn't been the case.

And they did cover exactly how bad some of the Cerberus operations were. Jack's quest was the most obvious one, but they also covered the operations you shut down in ME1 during conversations.

Not really.  There's mention of it here and there, but not with the necessary degree of impact needed to remind people why everyone hates Cerberus.  Cerberus's involvement at Akuze NEVER gets mentioned, even though it's a critical part of your background if you chose Sole Survivor (Toombs and Wayne are in a news broadcast if you kept both of them alive, but their exact connection to Cerberus isn't discussed).   The Rachni and the Thorian Creepers get mentioned (I probably wouldn't even have remembered what a Thorian Creeper was if I hadn't just replayed the first game, to be quite frank), but only in passing without any real details.  You talk with Miranda about shutting certain Cerberus operations down, but never actually discuss what those operations were.

In short, TIM in this game more or less comes across as a guy whose worst sin is manipulating people (i.e. sending Kaiden/Ashley to Horizon as bait and neglecting to mention to you that the "damaged" ship was a trap).

Bioware really dropped the ball here.  And I think a lot of the Kaiden/Ashley hate is a result of that.

[dewayne31]

i think the devs got a emotional response out us over our me 1 li. they are probably sitting going yep mission completed. lol. but that situation was fubar.

Modifié par dewayne31, 02 février 2010 - 09:08 .

[Badpie]

dewayne31 wrote...

i think the devs got a emotional response out us over our me 1 li. they are probably sitting going yep mission completed. lol. but that situation was fubar.

Yup.  If you think about it, we all felt probably kind of how Shepard felt.  Confused and sad and frustrated.  So there you go.  Mission accomplished. 

[Spectre_Shepard]

I for one completely agreed with what Ash said on Horizon. Hell, I felt like I was betraying my old crew. Working for Cerberus? I would have rather stayed dead. Almost. I just wish that there had been an option to tell Ash that I actually thought she was right.