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[ejoslin]

SusanStoHelit wrote...


What it can save is irrelevant in my view. It's evil - plain and simple. Some things are grey, neither black nor white, the anvil isn't.



I'm not looking for compassion, I'm looking for ethics. They're not the same thing. They're not even close.

Ok, he, unlike most of your other party members, is willing to take a stand for what he feels is right.  And what he feels is right usually falls on what is considered the "good" side of things.  And one thing he considers wrong is the killing of innocents!  

And the anvil is not black and white.  If it were, it would be easy.  But it has the potential to save thousands of lives at the expense of just a few -- to save a race, really, that is dying.  It's evil in the sense that it is TOO powerful and will be abused.  That's why it must be destroyed.  

I find Zevran ethical in that not only does he has strong beliefs about what is right and wrong, but he is willing to stand up for those beliefs as well.  He IS amoral, but really, that's not necessarily a bad thing, especially if he ends up recruiting and training for the grey wardens, which also could be considered a pretty amoral thing to do.

Edit: And how do the romances make me feel? Hahahaha, I'm sitting here at my desk, working and flipping back to the forums and defending my favorite romance partner in this game!  That says something -- whether about the game or about me, I'm not sure . . .

Modifié par ejoslin, 09 février 2010 - 02:03 .

[Sabriana]

But the volunteers would know that beforehand. It's rather tricky, this whole anvil business. Orzammar is in danger of being wiped out, look how much ground they've lost over the centuries. Yes, all my PC's agreed with Caridin, but they also saw that the dwarfs were facing a very uncertain future. And what of the surface? If the dwarfs are no longer able to beat back the darkspawn, the surface would suffer quite a lot.

The dwarfs have already shown that they are able to make great sacrifices to keep Orzammar alive. Look at the dead caste for example. It's not only their territory that's in peril, but their race that is in danger here. The volunteers would need to be told everything beforehand, and if they are still willing, then that is their choice. However, there is no way that my PCs would ever trust anyone enough to hand over this highly dangerous device. Caridin is right. A ruthless or weak ruler would not hesitate to use the anvil in any way he (or she. Are there female dwarven rulers? I haven't played the dwarf origin yet.) would see fit and to further his own agendas.

[SusanStoHelit]

ejoslin wrote...

And the anvil is not black and white.  If it were, it would be easy.  But it has the potential to save thousands of lives at the expense of just a few -- to save an race, really, that is dying.  It's evil in the sense that it is TOO powerful and will be abused.  That's why it must be destroyed. 

For the reasons why I think it is, see the post I wrote just before this one - I think we were both typing at the same time.

I find Zevran ethical in that not only does he has strong beliefs about what is right and wrong, but he is willing to stand up for those beliefs as well.  He IS amoral, but really, that's not necessarily a bad thing, especially if he ends up recruiting and training for the grey wardens, which also could be considered a pretty amoral thing to do.

Amoral: having no moral standards or principles.
Ethical: relating to or concerning morals, justice, or duty; morally right

Zevran cannot be both amoral and ethical. Sorry.

Edit: On that note, I have to go to bed, it's 1am here.

Modifié par SusanStoHelit, 09 février 2010 - 02:06 .

[Sabriana]

Morals and ethics are not the same. Morals is what a person feels is right. Ethics is what a person was taught is right.

On that note, good night, and sleep well.

[ejoslin]

Sabriana answered pretty much what I was going to say. But I'll go on to say, Zevran is amoral in the sense that he has always done what he needed to survive. He's ethical in the sense that he is willing to take a stand for what he believes in. And what he believes in seems to be, for the most part, on the side of what most seem to consider "good." Though not always.



Good night!

[Barbarossa2010]

Don't know if this is even wanted here, but it might add something to the discussion, from the straight HMN, 'friend' perspective of Zevran:

I have to tell you, I was no fan of Zevran for many of the same reasons Susan points out. I spared him on my first playthrough out of "being a chivalrous guy" obligation and never used him, because I just couldn't stand him. He sided with Teleisan (sp?) and betrayed me, since I put zero effort into knowing him. I executed him on site the second playthrough because I just knew he was a S#ithead.

Third playthrough, I spared him and finally decided to give him a chance. We became friends, despite his and my Warden's extreme differences. He called me 'handsome,' I told him to back the @#$% off, but that I could always use a friend.

After becoming "comrades in arms," I prompted one discussion in camp prior to going into the Dalish Elf quest (siding with the elves in everything,he approved thoroughly-I think even the Halla quest; gave him the Dalish Gloves also) where he wanted to discuss his last mission for the Crows, he paused midsentence and said something along the lines of, "maybe some other time." I was intrigued with him for the first time. Well, later, Taliesan pulls his stuff and out comes Zevran to side with his freind. I tell Taleisan, Zevran no longer needs the Crows, and it's a done deal.

At Arl Howe's estate in Denerim prior to the Landsmeet, I went around to all my companions to see if there was any dialogue I might be missing. When I went to Zevran,  he finally cues up the second part of his last mission (all I can call it is a "confession" really) and as I listened, my heart broke for him. I literally held back a tear or two. Weird really. All doubts about him were scrubbed away for me, although, I have to tell you it is not an easy confession to hear.

Zevran was the only companion that stayed with me at the end. On my sacrificial playthrough, I took him into face the Archdemon, which is sort of a personal reward program for my Warden's , and his final dialogue at the Gates was memorable.

I went from despising him to be willing to do just about anything (except sleep with him of course) for him. Zevran is a credit to the writers for me.  Two personalities in near absolute opposition that felt like they could somehow find a way to come together and forge a lifelong committment of friendship.

Modifié par Barbarossa2010, 09 février 2010 - 03:03 .

[Creature 1]

Barbarossa2010 wrote...
where he wanted to discuss his last mission for the Crows, he paused midsentence and said something along the lines of, "maybe some other time." I was intrigued with him for the first time.

On my first playthrough I had no idea what his backstory was, so I used the "Don't be such a tease" line.  I got a pretty notable disapproval from that, it annoyed me at first until he finally was willing to talk about it.  Then I felt bad.  

[Sabriana]

@ Barbarossa

Finally. Someone who was willing to give the poor guy a chance. So many are just looking at the surface and of course they only see what Zevran wants them to see.



Oh really, Creature? I have to try that out myself. *Readies the F5 and F9 finger*

[Addai]

Barbarossa2010 wrote...

I went from despising him to be willing to do just about anything (except sleep with him of course) for him. Zevran is a credit to the writers for me.  Two personalities in near absolute opposition that felt like they could somehow find a way to come together and forge a lifelong committment of friendship.

Absolutely, me too.  I can't say I despised him, but also on my first playthrough I neglected him and then was shocked when he turned on me.  I'm just glad I eventually figured out what I was missing.

Current HNF rogue has romanced Alistair and is marrying him, but all my characters get attached to Zevran now and she is no exception.  Last night I triggered the banter with Morrigan where M. does her usual cynical routine, telling Zevran that he knows the Crows will come after him and asking facetiously if he really thinks the Grey Wardens will protect him after all this is over.  (He responds that the worst fate is not being able to choose your master and that he's well pleased with his current course.)  HNF is now itching to prove just how wrong she is.  If Zevran stays with them at court, she would go to (almost) any lengths to watch out for him.  She'd do that for any of her Blight buddies, I think, but especially the only one who is willing to stay with her though it endangers his own life to remain in one place and so visible.

I picture, some time down the road after the Blight, some Crows come to a meeting with what they think will be a contact who'll give them Zevran.  In comes a hooded figure who offers them a business proposition.  She tells them that if they continue this course, the Crows will be shut down in Ferelden.  The queen will personally hunt down every Crow ally in the country.  Whereas if they back off, they will not only have a friend in the Ferelden court, they'll have a patroness.  Before they realize who the messenger is, she's gone.  That would be a last resort, of course, once she's certain that they know where Zevran is anyway.

[Aynslie]

I loved the romance in this game. So far the best I have ever experienced in a game. I am finding it hard to romance anyone other than Alistair though, but what I really like about it is that you can show affection even after the dialogue is done, and the others in the group will comment or talk to your LI...in the case of Alistair teasing and making him uncomfortable. Its like hey, these two actually is hooking up and the others have noticed and is giving their two cents. In other games such as ME you don't really get that. That element really really needs to be added to ME3....but thats a different forum to rant on. DA:O romances is definitely superior quality for the romances being the backdrop of the game.

[SusanStoHelit]

Darn this game, I woke up and the first thing I thought of was this discussion. Bioware's writers are just too good.

Okay, so I've now read what you had to say about moral and ethical - and they don't mean what you say here. [Edit: as in, they don't mean that where I live.] Further, I've checked in 4 different dictionaries, and none of them mention anything about one being based on 'feelings' about what is right and the other about what is 'taught'. So we may be using the same words to mean different things. The definitions I gave earlier weren't made up, they're from the 21st Century Chambers Dictionary. And my personal ethical code has almost nothing to do with what I was taught growing up - I ditched most of that before I was even an adult, and I've ditched almost all the rest since. Ethics is what you come to know or believe is right, based upon personal reflection and consideration of moral issues - regardless of what you were taught.

My brain having been processing the matter of Zevran while I was asleep (someone help me, please!), I think my characters that are already in a romance with Zevran can live with his somewhat chancy and piecemeal compassion as a substitute for ethical behaviour. In a 'he's just learning to actually think about things and break old patterns' kind of way.

However, I have a couple of characters sitting at Ostagar or in their Origin story who won't be romancing Zevran unless he shows something more in the last part of the romance. I like him, I feel a huge amount of sympathy for him, but I need more than that to really take him seriously as a romance prospect. Love and loyalty isn't enough - love doesn't conquer all.

Either that, or I'll have to change one of them (or reroll them) to make them much more morally ambiguous - and then have Zevran argue with them over saving people that they want to kill. But if I do that, what's the point? I'll see 'that' side of Zevran, but I'll detest my own character.

Maybe he's a wonderful romance for those whose characters aren't all that 'good'. And that's fine, not everyone wants to play good characters. But it does narrow the field for those who do. 'Bad' characters can romance anyone (they don't care if they lie or deceive or manipulate or use) but 'good' ones can't - not if they want to stay in character. Which leaves Alistair for female pcs - and a temporary dalliance with Morrigan for male ones.

Modifié par SusanStoHelit, 09 février 2010 - 10:01 .

[ejoslin]

amoral -- neither moral nor immoral. What I mean is this is not entering into the equation -- he's doing what he needs to survive.

ethical -- pertaining to right or wrong in conduct -- he stands up for what he believes in.

I hope this clears that up, Susan.

Edit: I actually brought this point up in the love-Zevran thread, and you may not agree with it, but it's just an additional something to ponder.  You've played with Zevran in your party enough that I hope you know that when he is hit with a sensitive subject, he deflects with humor, sex, or sexual humor.  When he talks about the pleasure of sinking the blade into the victims flesh, enjoying the power of life or death over them, you can always tell him that's a bit sick.  His answer is something like, "I'm often told I'm a sick, sick man, especially in bed."  He rarely deflects even hurtful comments from the warden like that, which makes me think that s/he hits a real nerve there.

Second edit: Ethical may not be the right word, but it's the best I can come up with.  He has a belief system, and it's not as survival-of-the-fittest as it first appears.  And if he believes something is right or wrong, he speaks up, no matter what the consequences may be for himself.  

Modifié par ejoslin, 09 février 2010 - 10:20 .

[SusanStoHelit]

@ Ejoslin

Oh, I know that Zevran has many good qualities. I think that's why I've persisted rather than breaking up with him with those characters. As I said, my heart bleeds for his upbringing and the damage it has done to him. I perfectly understand the way he uses humour - and I see that there are hidden elements in him that I'd like to see come out into the open light of day. But so far, they haven't.

The problem is partly, it seems from what everyone is saying, that 'good' characters just don't see as much of the 'good' side of Zevran. Which is ironical, to say the least. And for me to stay in character - well, I just won't see those things. And I'm not going to metagame 'I know Zevran would behave in this way or say that, if I made other choices' to keep the romance going. If I can't see a Zevran my character could really love while staying in character and not metagaming, it isn't going to work in the long run. Which is a shame.

Modifié par SusanStoHelit, 09 février 2010 - 10:22 .

[Addai]

Neither of my Zevran romance characters are "bad." I just can't play bad. Lack of imagination, I guess. They are both, however, elves- a city elf and a mage. And, to borrow a line from the mage origin, they "understand necessity." My Dalish warden was the most judgmental of all to Zevran because she kept thinking "why didn't you run away? why did you do all that (at the behest of shemlen) and not choose your own destiny?" She really didn't get it, until later when she saw the alienage. I think once you understand that Zevran is not a cold person but had to become cold to survive, and still didn't manage to do it even then, it helps to see beyond the surface of his character. What does he do when he has the freedom to do it? The thing that some of my Wardens had to be dragged into doing- including that Dalish warden:  Fighting against the Blight.

Modifié par Addai67, 09 février 2010 - 10:43 .

[ejoslin]

SusanStoHelit wrote...

@ Ejoslin

Oh, I know that Zevran has many good qualities. I think that's why I've persisted rather than breaking up with him with those characters. As I said, my heart bleeds for his upbringing and the damage it has done to him. I perfectly understand the way he uses humour - and I see that there are hidden elements in him that I'd like to see come out into the open light of day. But so far, they haven't.

The problem is partly, it seems from what everyone is saying, that 'good' characters just don't see as much of the 'good' side of Zevran. Which is ironical, to say the least. And for me to stay in character - well, I just won't see those things. And I'm not going to metagame 'I know Zevran would behave in this way or say that, if I made other choices' to keep the romance going. If I can't see a Zevran my character could really love while staying in character and not metagaming, it isn't going to work in the long run. Which is a shame.

Towards the end of the game, whether as lover or friend, you may get what you're asking for out of him.  Many people who romance him or ignore him will never see this, because it takes answering in a way that may seem out of character, and you have to have high approval to get.  My only hint on this will be, until he declares his feelings, really declares them, not just offers something, he values the friendship more than anything and the warden should as well, especially since he can't acknowledge his feelings quite yet.

Even so, there are things you will see, even not acting out of character.  It may require things like not attacking someone immediately, but I think a good character may listen to an evil person, even if they would never EVER consider what the person proposed.  Plus you may have a few opportunities to see his protectiveness, not only of the truly helpless, but of the warden as well.  He can change dramatically, and you can see him finally let go of the coldness, but he will never be an Alistair or Leliana with romantic words.  Even if you do end up given the opportunity to take his declaration as a proposal, it's as painful as anything else he says, but towards himself, never towards the warden.  And the feelings at least come across as real, and he just lays himself bare.  He just can't fight what he's feeling any more, and it's up to the Warden to accept it and him, or let go.

It's not for everyone.  But if you just look on the surface, you may miss one of the most complex characters there are in the game.  Because there is so much more to him than it first seems.

So I suppose this answers how this particular romance made me feel:wub:

Modifié par ejoslin, 09 février 2010 - 10:40 .

[Nonvita]

SusanStoHelit wrote...

@ Ejoslin

Oh, I know that Zevran has many good qualities. I think that's why I've persisted rather than breaking up with him with those characters. As I said, my heart bleeds for his upbringing and the damage it has done to him. I perfectly understand the way he uses humour - and I see that there are hidden elements in him that I'd like to see come out into the open light of day. But so far, they haven't.

The problem is partly, it seems from what everyone is saying, that 'good' characters just don't see as much of the 'good' side of Zevran. Which is ironical, to say the least. And for me to stay in character - well, I just won't see those things. And I'm not going to metagame 'I know Zevran would behave in this way or say that, if I made other choices' to keep the romance going. If I can't see a Zevran my character could really love while staying in character and not metagaming, it isn't going to work in the long run. Which is a shame.

Not to add fuel to the fire, because both of you are bringing up great points...

Firstly, I was taught the same definitions as ejoslin regarding morals and ethics, just to throw that in there.

And my main point: the unfortunate thing about Zevran is that he's not really going to go looking for the PC's acceptance. He wants it, oh boy he wants it a lot, but he's not really going to change himself in order to get it. So yes, that means good characters may not see every good thing about him.

I think in terms of "good" for Zevran, you have to look at his actions more than his words. So often the things he says are covers, or meant as shock factor because he's scared of getting close to people. But the cold things he says aren't really reflected in his actions throughout the game. He talks about the pleasure of killing, yes, but he never actually acts on it. Instead, he shows moments of mercy toward others, as well as gratitude and honor at the chance to live and fight for a good cause with the Warden. Some of his approval toward things may seem a little harsh, but I think it tends to be more rational than evil. Maybe not "good," but his reasoning for supporting them isn't out of a selfish desire for power or out of cruelty.

So I guess in response to your statement that you haven't seen him change for the better- he has, it's just that he a lot of the giveaways for it are through his actions (or maybe even his non-actions). That's why it doesn't always show.

[Sabriana]

The man Zevran has had a childhood and a breeding that would break most people beyond repair. I know what I'm talking about, believe me.

It is unreasonable to expect him to overcome that in a short time. However, he is strong enough to be broken, but not beyond repair. He's retained his humanity (I know he's an elf and humanity might not be the right word) in spite of the way he was treated from early childhood on.

You cant expect him to change at the drop of a hat. It will take a while. Think about it, he was an abused and exploited person for almost all of his life. He is not free. He is a slave. He grew up in a wh*rehouse where they 'sold the illusion of love" and he was taught massage techniques when he was only a small child. Look at a little girl/boy and realize how easy it would be to shatter them forever.

[Sabriana]

nother twin. who knew.

Modifié par Sabriana, 09 février 2010 - 11:00 .

[SusanStoHelit]

Nonvita wrote...

Firstly, I was taught the same definitions as ejoslin regarding morals and ethics, just to throw that in there.

*Sigh* Americans. <3

I think in terms of "good" for Zevran, you have to look at his actions more than his words. So often the things he says are covers, or meant as shock factor because he's scared of getting close to people.

I'm fully aware of his way of deflecting others when they probe too closely by either shocking them or using humour - or both. Actually, I can really relate to that personally. I've been known to do those selfsame things.

He talks about the pleasure of killing, yes, but he never actually acts on it.

What, he never kills in the game and enjoys it?

Instead, he shows moments of mercy toward others

He hasn't for me, with two different characters - but as I said, that is undoubtedly because they're good. And he's had no opportunity to argue with me over my making a heartless, cruel, or 'bad' decision.

as well as gratitude and honor at the chance to live and fight for a good cause with the Warden

This I have seen, but it's just not enough. After all, the blight is a threat to everyone, once they realise that it's real. And so that could just be survival talking. Is he there with the Warden to help others or himself, to ensure the survival of others or himself?

Some of his approval toward things may seem a little harsh, but I think it tends to be more rational than evil. Maybe not "good," but his reasoning for supporting them isn't out of a selfish desire for power or out of cruelty.

I never said that I thought he was evil or cruel or had a 'selfish desire for power'. But he isn't altruistic. He doesn't put others first (with the exception of his lover, the Warden). My characters might, and do, love him. But they wouldn't choose to stay in a romance as a permanent lifetime commitment with someone whose moral compass is so different from their own.

So I guess in response to your statement that you haven't seen him change for the better- he has, it's just that he a lot of the giveaways for it are through his actions (or maybe even his non-actions). That's why it doesn't always show.

So, his non-actions. So he doesn't take a contract to assassinate someone while he's with me - therefore, he's changed? But he does say that he wants to go on being an assassin, that he can't imagine being anything else, and that he might, in the future, 'go into business' for himself. You see, it's his wanting to murder people for money that I have a problem with. He can save the world, rescue kittens, and love my character for the rest of his life, but if he wants to murder people for money no matter what - he hasn't changed enough. Murdering people for money is immoral, unethical, wrong, bad, evil. In fact, murdering people for any reason is all those things.

[Sabriana]

Susan, please give him room to grow. Growing is usually done slowly. He's known nothing but abuse and exploitation his whole life.

To expect him to chuck that all off in a heatbeat is too much to ask. Yes, the romance is gritty. But he does grow in it. He was abused in the brothel ( massage techniques) and most certainly abused by the Crows (see the tower). But he still managed, somehow, to be 'unfortunately not cold enough'. That is a very strong person.

Edited:Formatting, t's an art.

Modifié par Sabriana, 09 février 2010 - 11:28 .

[ejoslin]

SusanStoHelit wrote...


I'm fully aware of his way of deflecting others when they probe too closely by either shocking them or using humour - or both. Actually, I can really relate to that personally. I've been known to do those selfsame things.

What, he never kills in the game and enjoys it?

He hasn't for me, with two different characters - but as I said, that is undoubtedly because they're good. And he's had no opportunity to argue with me over my making a heartless, cruel, or 'bad' decision.

This I have seen, but it's just not enough. After all, the blight is a threat to everyone, once they realise that it's real. And so that could just be survival talking. Is he there with the Warden to help others or himself, to ensure the survival of others or himself?


I never said that I thought he was evil or cruel or had a 'selfish desire for power'. But he isn't altruistic. He doesn't put others first (with the exception of his lover, the Warden). My characters might, and do, love him. But they wouldn't choose to stay in a romance as a permanent lifetime commitment with someone whose moral compass is so different from their own.


So, his non-actions. So he doesn't take a contract to assassinate someone while he's with me - therefore, he's changed? But he does say that he wants to go on being an assassin, that he can't imagine being anything else, and that he might, in the future, 'go into business' for himself. You see, it's his wanting to murder people for money that I have a problem with. He can save the world, rescue kittens, and love my character for the rest of his life, but if he wants to murder people for money no matter what - he hasn't changed enough. Murdering people for money is immoral, unethical, wrong, bad, evil. In fact, murdering people for any reason is all those things.

Susan, he does say he wants to change and doesn't want that life any more, twice that I can think of off hand.  And he expresses his gratitude to the warden on several occasions for giving him the opportunity.  At the speech I hinted at above, he does go above and beyond just trying to ensure his own survival -- he makes some things very clear, and since this dialog is for someone who is either a lover or friend, it's not just because he doesn't want to lose the love of his life.

And he's an Antivan.  He could get away, easily -- just hop on the boat with Isabela.  You know that even the Grey Wardens aren't going to fight the blight in Ferelden because of the civil war.  But he's going nowhere.

I can't think of a single time in the game that he kills someone and enjoys it.  I can think of one time that he does a mercy killing -- but you can also hear how much it pains him (depending on who's in the party I suppose, since another character can override much of what he says).  I can think of one point in the game where he would gladly kill Anora, but that would fall under the protectiveness he feels towards the warden.  I can think of at least one mercy killing the warden may do as well, and Zevran actually turns away when she does it.

Putting people ahead of himself . . . do any characters really do that in this game?  I think he does in many ways, by giving practical advice that ends up helping a lot more than hurting if you follow it (his comments to Harrowmont's second for instance are spot on).  And his talks with Shale . . . I think those actually change her views on many things and contribute to one of her endings.

[Sabriana]

ejoslin wrote...

<snip>

And his talks with Shale . . . I think those actually change her views on many things and contribute to one of her endings.

Phew. I thought once again I was the only one who thought that. It's good to hear/read.

[ejoslin]

Sabriana wrote...

ejoslin wrote...



And his talks with Shale . . . I think those actually change her views on many things and contribute to one of her endings.

Phew. I thought once again I was the only one who thought that. It's good to hear/read.

Yes.  I mean, I know she can get that ending even if you kill him right off, but when you play with him as a regular party member and hear him talk and hear how her views start to change, it's interesting.  I love all those dialogs.

Edit: Formatting, I need practice

Modifié par ejoslin, 09 février 2010 - 11:37 .

[Nonvita]

SusanStoHelit wrote...
*Sigh* Americans. <3

Ahh us and our terrible educations. I apologize for making the sad attempt at understanding something; it certainly doesn't come naturally.

I'm fully aware of his way of deflecting others when they probe too closely by either shocking them or using humour - or both. Actually, I can really relate to that personally. I've been known to do those selfsame things.

We all do. A lot of people think I'm extremely rude and critical when they meet me (stop looking at me like that), and I only show my softer side after I know I can trust people. Which means a lot of people never see it. Unfortunately it's the same for Zevran. Maybe we just see his handling of emotions differently, but I do personally think they're there.

What, he never kills in the game and enjoys it?

Do you have a specific example? I can't think of any times in the game where he shows any twisted desire to want to kill people. He does kill people, just like everyone else, but there's no sign that he's enjoying it any more than the others.

He hasn't for me, with two different characters - but as I said, that is undoubtedly because they're good. And he's had no opportunity to argue with me over my making a heartless, cruel, or 'bad' decision.

Well, it is unfortunate that Zevran doesn't usually speak up when he agrees with decisions. The only real displays of emotion he shows are when he vehemently disagrees with decisions, which seems to only happen with "bad" characters. That doesn't mean, however, that he doesn't agree with your good decisions. It's just that there's no visible acknowledgement of it.

This I have seen, but it's just not enough. After all, the blight is a threat to everyone, once they realise that it's real. And so that could just be survival talking. Is he there with the Warden to help others or himself, to ensure the survival of others or himself?

With Zevran it's very obvious that it's not survival or selfishness talking. I don't know if you haven't gotten to the specific dialogue yet, but there is a point that makes it very clear.

I never said that I thought he was evil or cruel or had a 'selfish desire for power'. But he isn't altruistic. He doesn't put others first (with the exception of his lover, the Warden). My characters might, and do, love him. But they wouldn't choose to stay in a romance as a permanent lifetime commitment with someone whose moral compass is so different from their own.

No, he doesn't have any reason to be altruistic. He's been taught his entire life not to be altruistic, quite the opposite! So the fact that he retains as much empathy as he does is quite a feat in itself. That does mean that he'll probably never be the knight in shining armor that Alistair is (or can be), but he is remarkably well-adjusted considering his background, and I think he shows many times that he can change. But it will take time, and probably more time than Origins alone can show.

So, his non-actions. So he doesn't take a contract to assassinate someone while he's with me - therefore, he's changed? But he does say that he wants to go on being an assassin, that he can't imagine being anything else, and that he might, in the future, 'go into business' for himself. You see, it's his wanting to murder people for money that I have a problem with. He can save the world, rescue kittens, and love my character for the rest of his life, but if he wants to murder people for money no matter what - he hasn't changed enough. Murdering people for money is immoral, unethical, wrong, bad, evil. In fact, murdering people for any reason is all those things.

He does say that, yes. But why would he think otherwise? He's never known another life, so as far as he knows there's nothing else out there for him. There are plenty of times where he does show some regret at his past, and maybe those aren't numerous enough but they're there. If you tell him that no, you can't imagine him being anything else, he seems rather hurt. It's the same when you recruit him and he tells you you're too smart to join the Crows, as though looking down on himself for it. It was never his choice to become an assassin, but because it's all he's ever done he has no idea what else to do. I don't know that he actually likes being an assassin so much as he's comfortable with it. And yes, at the end you can have him come with your Warden to rebuild the GWs. He is willing to do something else if he is given the opportunity. But until there's another option, why would he give up on the only thing he knows how to do?

Now I need to get back to the essay I should be working on... oh terrible American higher education.

[Addai]

Nonvita wrote...
If you tell him that no, you can't imagine him being anything else, he seems rather hurt.

This is the "tell" in that conversation, IMO.  He looks surprised and wounded if the Warden says that (s)he can only picture him being an assassin.