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[ejoslin]

Addai67 wrote...

Nonvita wrote...
If you tell him that no, you can't imagine him being anything else, he seems rather hurt.

This is the "tell" in that conversation, IMO.  He looks surprised and wounded if the Warden says that (s)he can only picture him being an assassin.

Yep, you often get your best answers when you do not go for maximum approval.  Gah, it's easy enough to get his approval up that those dings are worth it.

[Sabriana]

Yes it is Addai, I agree completely.

Other than that, well put Nonvita. Very well put indeed.

Edited because Ejoslin made me:

I so agree. People swoon over the other romances because they are so obvious. Zevran needs time. Lordy, the man knows nothing but abuse and force, and he never even was his own man. He's been an abused slave his entire life.

Modifié par Sabriana, 10 février 2010 - 12:26 .

[SusanStoHelit]

ejoslin wrote...

  I think he does in many ways, by giving practical advice that ends up helping a lot more than hurting if you follow it (his comments to Harrowmont's second for instance are spot on).  And his talks with Shale . . . I think those actually change her views on many things and contribute to one of her endings.

Okay, I've had him with me for the Harrowmont thing and I disagree with him completely - unless I metagame, and even if I do that, I don't really agree with him, I just see that it's a lose/lose situation. I cannot abide Bhelen.

Shale? All I've gotten so far there is a few jokes and questions to Shale about what it's like being a golem, and Shale's answers leave Zevran realising that being squishy may not be all good. But I don't often have Shale in any party, except for plot purposes - the Deep Roads. I prefer Alistair as a tank, Leliana as ranged, others as dps. Shale can fill any of those roles, but not as well. Maybe I could try including her more with Zevran. I love Shale's dialogue and character, but she's just not as good in combat as others.

[SusanStoHelit]

ejoslin wrote...

Yep, you often get your best answers when you do not go for maximum approval.  Gah, it's easy enough to get his approval up that those dings are worth it.

I don't go for maximum approval. I pick responses that are 'in character' for my pc. And that doesn't usually include hurtful, nasty, sarcastic, or whatever responses. Not to my companions, anyway, especially once we're friends. Enemies are another matter.

[Ellestor]

Just completed my first playthrough—86 hours over three months. I was a City Elf rogue and romanced Morrigan.

My only complaint is that Leliana and Morrigan both confronted me to choose between them, apparently because gift-giving constitutes infidelity. I was left quite puzzled by this, although perhaps I should channel Oghren and chalk it up to, 'Pheh, women.'

Anyway, my last three hours were suitably packed with emotion. Less than an hour after Morrigan began to refuse to join me in my tent due to loving me too much (a clue I much enjoyed, although it aroused far different suspicions than what turned out to be true), I dealt with the alienage from whence I came (being especially disturbed by the orphanage). Almost immediately thereafter, I lost Alistair at the Landsmeet for sparing and conscripting Loghain (having read The Stolen Throne, I could not bring myself to do anything else), and less than an hour after that, I was hit with the sacrificial talk from Riordan and the 'dark promise' with Morrigan.

I was riveted. I couldn't look away for anything.

I know that a lot of people felt betrayed by Morrigan at the end, but I just can't look at it that way. It's obvious throughout her story, especially after the grimoire business, and most especially once she falls in love with you, that it is building up to a twist she expects you to dislike intensely. I was fond enough of Morrigan to deal with whatever it was, and really, I was expecting a lot worse. Theories raged through my mind as I picked up what I thought were clues around the world: the most prominent of which was that Flemeth, or Morrigan, or both, was/were Urthemiel, the Old God/Dragon of Beauty—the one which should have, it seemed, been the archdemon of this particular Blight. So, I was suspecting that I'd face a much more emotionally horrible final battle than I did.

So, whilst used I may have felt to some extent, I was relieved that the romance was real and happy to trust her wishes, as I always had. Putting very little stock in the Chant, I had no problem preserving an Old God, and if Morrigan was convinced that it was best she leave to care for it, I was inclined to believe her. It seemed to me that it would inevitably be a daughter and she would continue in her mother's footsteps, and I really had no problem with that. I'm fond of them and became ever more fascinated when it seemed that they were orchestrating the return of the Old Gods. Had they already done so for Dumat, Zazikel, Toth and Andoral? Were they, themselves, two of such children, or do the witches exist only to serve as their mothers? The fact that Flemeth is periodically referred to as an Abomination leads me to lean toward the former.

All in all, no hard feelings. I was touched by the epilogue text and hope the consequences become apparent within the trilogy.

Modifié par Ellestor, 10 février 2010 - 12:42 .

[ejoslin]

SusanStoHelit wrote...

Okay, I've had him with me for the Harrowmont thing and I disagree with him completely - unless I metagame, and even if I do that, I don't really agree with him, I just see that it's a lose/lose situation. I cannot abide Bhelen.

Shale? All I've gotten so far there is a few jokes and questions to Shale about what it's like being a golem, and Shale's answers leave Zevran realising that being squishy may not be all good. But I don't often have Shale in any party, except for plot purposes - the Deep Roads. I prefer Alistair as a tank, Leliana as ranged, others as dps. Shale can fill any of those roles, but not as well. Maybe I could try including her more with Zevran. I love Shale's dialogue and character, but she's just not as good in combat as others.

Hmmmm, I never once got the impression that Zevran thought squishy was bad.  The delicate mushroom comment?  Heh, that's in response to shale saying no putrid liquids squirt out of her!  And his tone of voice is hilarious.  But when he talks about accepting the lows in life so you can experience the highs; he again mentions having children and such, and can't fathom missing out on the joys that come  with being flesh even though it comes at the cost of growing old and dying.

I don't think you need to metagame to see the problems with dwarven society.  There are a lot of clues there.  When you see the difference between dust town and the diamond district.  The criers say an awful lot as well.  You know both Harrowmont and Bhelen are dirty (one of bribery, one of forgery), but you also know Harrowmont is for upholding the current system while Bhelen wants to change it.  Zevran is a pragmatist.  And he was right, whether you like either man or not.  Bhelen really does do a lot more good for dwarven society than Harrowmont.

Edit: Again, some people just don't fit well with Zevran.  The romance is not romantic, the character takes a lot to get to know him.  His dialogs with various party members I think are very telling, but much of what is said can be missed.  He funny, nice in his own way, very smart, very practical, he does want to change, get a new life.  He's grateful to the warden, freely admits a commitment to her (or him) to everyone who presses him about it, and shows a loyalty that I don't think any other character shows, which unfortunately is most apparent in a dialog that is missed by many.  

Does he become a hero? A saver of kittens, a writer of (good) poetry?  He sure doesn't.  That's not what he's about at all.  If given a chance, does he completely change his life?  He sure does.  And it's not just love that does it, because he will rebuild the grey wardens with a friend as well.  But if he does fall in love, the Warden has someone there for her (or him) who will love and be faithful forever.  And no, he won't go back to his assassin ways if he stays by her side.  Though some may think that rebuilding the grey wardens is maybe as bad.

Modifié par ejoslin, 10 février 2010 - 12:59 .

[SusanStoHelit]

ejoslin wrote...

But when he talks about accepting the lows in life so you can experience the highs; he again mentions having children and such, and can't fathom missing out on the joys that come  with being flesh even though it comes at the cost of growing old and dying.

I haven't gotten that yet; more Shale it is.

I don't think you need to metagame to see the problems with dwarven society.  There are a lot of clues there.  When you see the difference between dust town and the diamond district.  The criers say an awful lot as well.  You know both Harrowmont and Bhelen are dirty (one of bribery, one of forgery), but you also know Harrowmont is for upholding the current system while Bhelen wants to change it.  Zevran is a pragmatist.  And he was right, whether you like either man or not.  Bhelen really does do a lot more good for dwarven society than Harrowmont.

Oh, I can see the clues. And I know that Bhelen gets a better deal for the casteless - and the clues for that are there without metagaming. I just happen to think that Bhelen is a bad, bad man. And he is rewarded by your choice if you support him for being such. His immediate execution of Harrowmont is a good example. I simply don't want Bhelen ruling or in charge of anything - no matter what he does for the casteless. And yes, I've played the dwarf commoner origin several times.

For me, motives are at least as important as results. And Bhelen's motives suck. He doesn't help the casteless because he cares about them, but because doing so gives him a power base that lets him assume a position of absoute tyrannical power. That's what he wants, and he'll do anything to get it.

Harrowmont I see as an honourable man, with the very best of motives. And he's absolutely in the right about Bhelen murdering one child and framing the other. And about the king having given him the right of succession. But he's weak - and a traditionalist to boot.

I don't like either option, to be truthful. And I hate being forced to choose either. None of my characters would realistically choose either. If they could really do what was in character they would: (1) crown themselves or (2) lead an uprising of the casteless and overthrow the damn nobles and the ruling classes or (3) simply walk out in disgust and not choose either. But the game won't let me do the first two. And if I choose the 3rd, I can't advance in the game. So I'm forced to act out of character.

[Demx]

It felt like any other dating sim, except none of the work or ridiculous time limits.

[ejoslin]

SusanStoHelit wrote...


Oh, I can see the clues. And I know that Bhelen gets a better deal for the casteless - and the clues for that are there without metagaming. I just happen to think that Bhelen is a bad, bad man. And he is rewarded by your choice if you support him for being such. His immediate execution of Harrowmont is a good example. I simply don't want Bhelen ruling or in charge of anything - no matter what he does for the casteless. And yes, I've played the dwarf commoner origin several times.

For me, motives are at least as important as results. And Bhelen's motives suck. He doesn't help the casteless because he cares about them, but because doing so gives him a power base that lets him assume a position of absoute tyrannical power. That's what he wants, and he'll do anything to get it.

Harrowmont I see as an honourable man, with the very best of motives. And he's absolutely in the right about Bhelen murdering one child and framing the other. And about the king having given him the right of succession. But he's weak - and a traditionalist to boot.

I don't like either option, to be truthful. And I hate being forced to choose either. None of my characters would realistically choose either. If they could really do what was in character they would: (1) crown themselves or (2) lead an uprising of the casteless and overthrow the damn nobles and the ruling classes or (3) simply walk out in disgust and not choose either. But the game won't let me do the first two. And if I choose the 3rd, I can't advance in the game. So I'm forced to act out of character.

I don't like either option either.  But Bhelen most likely saves Orzammar from certain doom.  As repugnant as both choices are, Zevran is right.  It's not only in Orzammar, but you can see it elsewhere, that he has the ability to see a situation and size it up accurately.  It's an ugly world, in a very ugly time, and when you have limited choices, you take what will do the most good, not what feels the best.  

And inciting a riot, creating even more civil unrest and overthrowing a government, when you're trying to get allies to save Ferelden from a blight doesn't seem to be a good course of action, especially not for a good character.  There's plenty you can do to erode the current system if you really feel it must be destroyed (give the chantry a foot hold, or give the mages a foot hold -- if you choose both, the chantry wins out).  

[Bratt1204]

SuperMedbh wrote...


And whilst I'd never admit publicly that I had a severe crush on a cartoon character, there it is. It was like being 16 again and watching the Titanic (waaaaaaaa!!!!!!).

You and about a million other women out there have a huge crush on Alistair (including myself of course:P). It is just insane how many Ali fan sites I have come across, women just adore him. I myself cannot seem to get enough, I just find it impossible to play DAO while my husband is within earshot.

Modifié par Bratt1204, 10 février 2010 - 02:08 .

[Xelishiken]

Aynslie wrote...

I loved the romance in this game. So far the best I have ever experienced in a game. I am finding it hard to romance anyone other than Alistair though, but what I really like about it is that you can show affection even after the dialogue is done, and the others in the group will comment or talk to your LI...in the case of Alistair teasing and making him uncomfortable. Its like hey, these two actually is hooking up and the others have noticed and is giving their two cents. In other games such as ME you don't really get that. That element really really needs to be added to ME3....but thats a different forum to rant on. DA:O romances is definitely superior quality for the romances being the backdrop of the game.

This I have to agree completely with. I've been playing ME2 on a friends' PC until I can buy it for myself and even completed it once. But the romance aspect in DA:O is so much better than it is in ME and ME2 put together. Would rant on ME forum, but I'm locked out until I buy... oh well.

[Addai]

SusanStoHelit wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Yep, you often get your best answers when you do not go for maximum approval.  Gah, it's easy enough to get his approval up that those dings are worth it.

I don't go for maximum approval. I pick responses that are 'in character' for my pc. And that doesn't usually include hurtful, nasty, sarcastic, or whatever responses. Not to my companions, anyway, especially once we're friends. Enemies are another matter.

I don't think that's what we're talking about.  Rather, honest responses and questions.  Nasty doesn't work with Zevran any better than anyone else, but honest questioning does elicit better responses than just nodding your head.

[ejoslin]

Addai67 wrote...

SusanStoHelit wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Yep, you often get your best answers when you do not go for maximum approval.  Gah, it's easy enough to get his approval up that those dings are worth it.

I don't go for maximum approval. I pick responses that are 'in character' for my pc. And that doesn't usually include hurtful, nasty, sarcastic, or whatever responses. Not to my companions, anyway, especially once we're friends. Enemies are another matter.

I don't think that's what we're talking about.  Rather, honest responses and questions.  Nasty doesn't work with Zevran any better than anyone else, but honest questioning does elicit better responses than just nodding your head.

Exactly Addai67.  There's usually something between, "I enjoy violence myself," and "you are a horrible person."  I rarely pick either of those types of choices -- while one will get you huge approval and the other a huge ding, neither will tell you much about Zevran.  Though whenever possible, I will select that I'm glad he's there.  Which may be why I have so much trouble keeping his approval down even though I don't go for maximum approval.  

One play through, I did try for maximum approval, and I hit 100 before I was even able to ask him about his last mission.  It really is that easy to raise it.  So if you lose 30 or 40 approval points by not going for the best answers, you'll still have him solidly on your side, most likely in adore, possibly before you want him that high.