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How did the romance in DA:O make you feel?


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#151
ejoslin

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SusanStoHelit wrote...

I've done the Morrigan romance and I loved it. She stays completely in character, the ending is not a surprise, and I knew all along that she had a reason for coming - but not what it was. When she told my male Cousland that she loved him, that she didn't like feeling that way, and that she wanted to break up with him, he accepted it with grace and dignity.

Male pcs who accept Morrigan's wish to break up can have an ending to the romance that is dignified. It is only those who think they can change her, who hang on to her, kicking and screaming (so to speak) in an effort to make her into something more acceptable to them, who end up with the nasty ending.

And if you accept the break up, you can still choose to follow her, or not, at endgame.

Furthermore, if you do accept the break up, it happens early enough in the game (it did for me, less than halfway through) that if you choose it would be very easy to rebound to Leliana - or Zevran. I didn't choose to do either, but the option is there.


You know, I have this feeling about the Alistair romance in many ways.  You run into problems with Alistair if you try to force it -- if you want your elf mage to be queen, for instance.  However, if you're willing to accept Alistair for what he is and listen to him, you can end up with a wonderful ending with him.  If you don't harden him, if you make him king you are condemning him to the life he never wanted.  If you harden him, he WILL stay by your side, even if he can't marry you (and he really does want to marry you, but he can't unless she's a Cousland, in which case he is NOT marrying out of love despite fangirl flutters).

Also, with Alistair, you have plenty of warning.  He distances himself.  He won't talk about your future more than once, and in that discussion, if he knows he's going to be put forth as king, he will let you know that he doesn't know if he can stay with you if that happens.  But even if you don't get that information, you should know Alistair well enough that he will do what he thinks is best for everyone, putting himself last.  It's what's wonderful AND infuriating about him.  And you should also know your country well enough to know whether you'd be accepted as queen or not.

Modifié par ejoslin, 06 février 2010 - 11:48 .


#152
SusanStoHelit

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Exactly, ejoslin.

The romances with Morrigan and Alistair aren't 'happy ever after' with 'white picket fences' and children and so on. But they are perfect in their own way. They fit perfectly with the characters, and perfectly within the game world.

Would it be nice if we could have a happy ever after ending, a fairy tale ending? In some ways it would. Sometimes I weaken and hanker after it. But it just wouldn't fit into Thedas.

Sadly, Morrigan and Alistair are the two characters and romanceable characters I like best. I've got characters currently romancing Zevran and Leliana, although none of those have gotten to the end yet. But their characters just don't appeal to me as much. I've discussed why they don't appeal to me as much elsewhere, and won't do so here, but there you have it.

For me, the most satisfying romances available in the game are the ones that are 'doomed', if you want to see it that way, ending in being dumped or being made secondary to some 'higher vision'. Both Morrigan and Alistair still love you - it's just that for each of them love is not the most important thing in their world. They will not choose love over their duties and responsibilities (Al) or their plans and ambitions (Morrigan).

[Edited for clarity.]

Modifié par SusanStoHelit, 06 février 2010 - 11:38 .


#153
Herr Uhl

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You can't have a 'white picket fence' ending with Alastair? As long as you let Anora rule and Morrigan sleep with him (and you know he likes it *points finger of truth at Ali fangirls*), you can end up together. Well, no kids (of your own, you could adopt someone similar to the kid that looks for his mommy in Lothering) and the calling to Weisshaupt may be a problem though.



Or am I missing something here?

#154
Special_Agent_Goodwrench

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So far I romanced only Leliana, since I grew to love her character (with all the craziness included) so much, I couldn't bring myself to romance anyone else. (That didn't stop me from randomly flirting with others here and there.)
It's safe to say I've become pretty damn overprotective of her. If anyone attacks her in battle or says something negative of her, Maker help those poor souls. Man, I remember when Leliana was telling me what Marjolaine did to her, I was going into rage mode, wanting nothing more but to burn the witch at a stake.
And Morrigan forcing me to do her dark ritual:
Morrigan: Do the ritual.
Me: Nah thanks.
Morrigan: Think of Leliana. What will become of her with if you die?
Me: Arghhh, alright! Alright, you bloody witch!
I'd have to say, Leliana turned me into a real softie. Image IPB

#155
ejoslin

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Herr Uhl wrote...

You can't have a 'white picket fence' ending with Alastair? As long as you let Anora rule and Morrigan sleep with him (and you know he likes it *points finger of truth at Ali fangirls*), you can end up together. Well, no kids (of your own, you could adopt someone similar to the kid that looks for his mommy in Lothering) and the calling to Weisshaupt may be a problem though.

Or am I missing something here?


Well, that was kind of my point.  IF you listen to Alistair, either you won't make him king (unhardened) and you can have a wonderful ending with him.  If you harden him and listen to him, he will still stay with you.  However, if you for whatever reason think Anora should not be on the throne and that someone of the Theirin line should be, then YOU are making a sacrifice for duty as well, and you should know it will happen.

The Alistair romance runs into problems when you don't listen to him, or if you don't consider what his duties as king actually are.  Of course he'll have to marry and produce an heir as king -- he's not being put forth as king because he's a nice guy, but because the Theirin bloodline has to continue to be on the throne.  And of course that woman will have to be of noble blood. 

To remain with Alistair, the Warden has to make serious compromises.  If she's a noble, she'll have to accept the fact that either she or Alistair will have to have a child with someone else to make an heir (and yes, I know if the femwarden gets pregnant, it's not a baby of the Theirin bloodline, but no one else will know that).  If she's not a noble, then she either makes him king and accepts the loss that comes with it, or she permanently removes the Theirin bloodline from the throne, which has been unifying Ferelden for centuries, that many died to bring back to the Ferelden throne.

I hope that makes sense.

#156
Randomname1212

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Yeah, I  liked the whole Romance thing. It added a whole new level to this game. It made me feel much closer to my companions. In my opinion, the Romances were really a good part about this game.

#157
SusanStoHelit

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Herr Uhl wrote...

You can't have a 'white picket fence' ending with Alastair? As long as you let Anora rule and Morrigan sleep with him (and you know he likes it *points finger of truth at Ali fangirls*), you can end up together. Well, no kids (of your own, you could adopt someone similar to the kid that looks for his mommy in Lothering) and the calling to Weisshaupt may be a problem though.

Or am I missing something here?


You're missing quite a few somethings. 

First, only HN females can marry him if he's king - no marriage, no white picket fence. Second, even if he does marry a HN female, he has to be talked into it, and although he loves you, he's not marrying for love, he's marrying you because it's 'allowed'. This is proved by the fact that if you're not a HN female, he won't marry you despite loving you. Non HN females get dumped, or in the right circumstances can be his mistress. Definitely not white picket fence territory.

Second, if he's not king, well there's the rub. You get to stay together no matter what you background, love triumphs and all that. But this peach pie of an ending is a poisoned pie. It's poisoned (for me) by the fact that Anora is ruling (whom I personally hate). It's poisoned by Anora's treatment of the elves - especially if your pc is from any of three origins: Dalish elf, City elf, elven Mage. The latter two are both from the Denerim alienage.

Even without those factors, it's not a white picket fence anyway. The rationale is that Alistair is not taking the throne because he is instead going to rebuild the Grey Wardens. So unless you rp a character who wants to be a warden - my only character who wanted that was my dwarf commoner, oh and one of my HN females, but she gets to marry Al anyway, so the point is moot - it means spending the rest of your life doing something you simply don't want to do. Life imprisonment, in effect, without either a crime to have caused it or any chance of release. You just happen to be 'imprisoned' with the man you love.

#158
Venix245

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DrunkDeadman wrote...

So far I romanced only Leliana, since I grew to love her character (with all the craziness included) so much, I couldn't bring myself to romance anyone else. (That didn't stop me from randomly flirting with others here and there.)
It's safe to say I've become pretty damn overprotective of her. If anyone attacks her in battle or says something negative of her, Maker help those poor souls. Man, I remember when Leliana was telling me what Marjolaine did to her, I was going into rage mode, wanting nothing more but to burn the witch at a stake.
And Morrigan forcing me to do her dark ritual:
Morrigan: Do the ritual.
Me: Nah thanks.
Morrigan: Think of Leliana. What will become of her with if you die?
Me: Arghhh, alright! Alright, you bloody witch!
I'd have to say, Leliana turned me into a real softie. Image IPB


im the same as this except for flirting i wont do it in fear of hurting Leliana's feelings, i dont want to romance anyone else, only her, infact ive actually started my game again just so i can romance her again (i still have not finished one playthrough so i dont know what happens in the end lol)

Like i said in the OP im a terrible romantic and the romance with Leliana was very romantic IMO loved her cute accent and voice and just the whole way she is, and you can tell by the wierd things she says like catching your eylids as they are like butterflys is so sweet  and charming  to me it shows she really care's hope i get a good ending with her ,

#159
Venix245

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[quote]Venix245 wrote...

[quote]DrunkDeadman wrote...

So far I romanced only Leliana, since I grew to love her character (with all the craziness included) so much, I couldn't bring myself to romance anyone else. (That didn't stop me from randomly flirting with others here and there.)
It's safe to say I've become pretty damn overprotective of her. If anyone attacks her in battle or says something negative of her, Maker help those poor souls. Man, I remember when Leliana was telling me what Marjolaine did to her, I was going into rage mode, wanting nothing more but to burn the witch at a stake.
And Morrigan forcing me to do her dark ritual:
Morrigan: Do the ritual.
Me: Nah thanks.
Morrigan: Think of Leliana. What will become of her with if you die?
Me: Arghhh, alright! Alright, you bloody witch!
I'd have to say, Leliana turned me into a real softie. Image IPB[/quote]

im the same as this except for flirting i wont do it in fear of hurting Leliana's feelings, i dont want to romance anyone else, only her, infact ive actually started my game again just so i can romance her again (i still have not finished one playthrough so i dont know what happens in the end lol)

Like i said in the OP im a terrible romantic and the romance with Leliana was very romantic IMO loved her cute accent and voice and just the whole way she is, and you can tell by the wierd things she says like catching your eylids as they are like butterflys is so sweet  and charming  to me it shows she really care's hope i get a good ending with her 

Image IPB LelianaImage IPB lol if she where real Image IPB

#160
Venix245

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DrunkDeadman wrote...

So far I romanced only Leliana, since I grew to love her character (with all the craziness included) so much, I couldn't bring myself to romance anyone else. (That didn't stop me from randomly flirting with others here and there.)
It's safe to say I've become pretty damn overprotective of her. If anyone attacks her in battle or says something negative of her, Maker help those poor souls. Man, I remember when Leliana was telling me what Marjolaine did to her, I was going into rage mode, wanting nothing more but to burn the witch at a stake.
And Morrigan forcing me to do her dark ritual:
Morrigan: Do the ritual.
Me: Nah thanks.
Morrigan: Think of Leliana. What will become of her with if you die?
Me: Arghhh, alright! Alright, you bloody witch!
I'd have to say, Leliana turned me into a real softie. Image IPB


im the same as this except for flirting i wont do it in fear of hurting Leliana's feelings, i dont want to romance anyone else, only her, infact ive actually started my game again just so i can romance her again (i still have not finished one playthrough so i dont know what happens in the end lol)

Like i said in the OP im a terrible romantic and the romance with Leliana was very romantic IMO loved her cute accent and voice and just the whole way she is, and you can tell by the wierd things she says like catching your eylids as they are like butterflys is so sweet  and charming  to me it shows she really care's hope i get a good ending with her 

Image IPB LelianaImage IPB lol if she where real Image IPB

#161
ejoslin

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It's further proven that Alistair is not marrying for love because Alistair will marry a Cousland he's never romanced and his reaction to said marriage is exactly the same either way. The Theirin - Cousland marriage is very advantageous politically. I know he'll marry her at "friendly" and at "warm". One day I'll see if he'll marry her at neutral and at hostile. I think he may given the ending dialog and also given the fact that he's willing to marry Anora though he doesn't like her.

#162
Sabriana

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All my girls had 'picket fence' endings because they all ended up loving and being unconditionally loved back by Zevran.

In none my the endings did Anora rule alone.

I was quite satisfied with the ending. She ended up with the man (elf) she truly loved, and he truly loved her back.

All in all, a very good and complete ending.


#163
SusanStoHelit

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Exactly ejoslin.



It just doesn't fit most women's ideas of a white picket fence, fairy tale ending.



Haha, I just had a thought. Men seem to be okay with the female warden endings for the Alistair romance. And women are happy with the male warden endings for the Morrigan romance.



What does this tell you about the Bioware writers?

#164
ejoslin

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/agree Sabriana. I like the complete dedication of Zevran. Even the times my Warden has married Alistair, Zevran stayed with her. Hmmm, Zevran, while not crazy about it, was willing to stay with the one he loved despite her having to marry someone else for duty -- does he love the warden more than the Alistair fangirls love Ali? *grin* I'm JOKING!

#165
SusanStoHelit

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Sabriana wrote...

All my girls had 'picket fence' endings because they all ended up loving and being unconditionally loved back by Zevran.
In none my the endings did Anora rule alone.
I was quite satisfied with the ending. She ended up with the man (elf) she truly loved, and he truly loved her back.
All in all, a very good and complete ending.


Yep, that was my point. You can get a white picket fence ending with Zev or Leli - but not with Alistair (or only in very limited circumstances, and not what I'd call white picket fence, anyway) or Morrigan.

#166
ejoslin

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SusanStoHelit wrote...

Exactly ejoslin.

It just doesn't fit most women's ideas of a white picket fence, fairy tale ending.

Haha, I just had a thought. Men seem to be okay with the female warden endings for the Alistair romance. And women are happy with the male warden endings for the Morrigan romance.

What does this tell you about the Bioware writers?


That they're fabulous, of course!

#167
Addai

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Face it, NO Grey Warden is getting a picket fence. One thing the Alistair romance has to recommend it, in my mind, is that you both share the taint. You know what the nightmares are like, and you know that you'll both be ready to go at the same time. There's no doubt in my mind that Zevran would be willing to go at the same time as his warden lover, but he won't *have* to. That makes it more of a sacrifice on his part, and thus harder for the warden.

Modifié par Addai67, 07 février 2010 - 01:09 .


#168
Herr Uhl

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ejoslin wrote...

SusanStoHelit wrote...

Exactly ejoslin.

It just doesn't fit most women's ideas of a white picket fence, fairy tale ending.

Haha, I just had a thought. Men seem to be okay with the female warden endings for the Alistair romance. And women are happy with the male warden endings for the Morrigan romance.

What does this tell you about the Bioware writers?


That they're fabulous, of course!


Yes, yes they are.

Morrigans romance ending, if you persist, is sad but not that unexpected. And Going on merry adventures with Zevran and Oghren (I expect Felsi to grow tired of him) in the search for the holy baby like the three wise men is glorious. That is why I'm thinking of not playing my main in the expansion, or any potential sequels, I love that ending.

#169
SusanStoHelit

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ejoslin wrote...

That they're fabulous, of course!


Or that they're Machiavellian masterminds, or stock villains from a silent movie who twirl their mustachios while committing evil deeds. I can just picture it, let's give the guys a romance that women will like - and vice versa. That way, no-one will be happy.

And if they want a happy ending, the romantic little putzes, they'll have to go for the remorseless bisexual assassin who enjoys killing people, or the psychotic bisexual assassin who is also a pro-chantry freak and who wants to put her lover's eyelashes in a jar.

:devil:

#170
Herr Uhl

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SusanStoHelit wrote...

ejoslin wrote...
That they're fabulous, of course!


Or that they're Machiavellian masterminds, or stock villains from a silent movie who twirl their mustachios while committing evil deeds. I can just picture it, let's give the guys a romance that women will like - and vice versa. That way, no-one will be happy.


Are fabulous and evil mastermind mutually exclusive? Gaider feeds on the tears of Morrigan fanboys and Ali fangirls. Zevran was his way to atone.

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 07 février 2010 - 12:49 .


#171
SusanStoHelit

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Herr Uhl wrote...

Are fabulous and evil mastermind exclusive? Gaider feeds on the tears of Morrigan fanboys and Ali fangirls. Zevran was his way to atone.


No they are not. David and the rest of the fabulous evil mastermind gand prove it. Kudos to them. But neither Zevran nor Leliana are atonement, they are simply a further twisting of the knife. :D

#172
TheBlackBaron

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SusanStoHelit wrote...

Or that they're Machiavellian masterminds, or stock villains from a silent movie who twirl their mustachios while committing evil deeds. I can just picture it, let's give the guys a romance that women will like - and vice versa. That way, no-one will be happy.

And if they want a happy ending, the romantic little putzes, they'll have to go for the remorseless bisexual assassin who enjoys killing people, or the psychotic bisexual assassin who is also a pro-chantry freak and who wants to put her lover's eyelashes in a jar.

:devil:


Well, when you put it that way...

That is an interesting way of looking at it, though. I myself would be perfectly happy rebuilding the Grey Wardens with Alistair (or wandering the world, or whatever) on a female PC. It's not "white-picket fence" but it is a nice note to end on.

Still can't imagine anybody actually liking the end to the Morrigan romance, though, at least from a personal perspective. As I've said before, story-wise it's great.

EDIT: Mayhaps we should all send black hats and fake mustaches to the writing team. :P

Modifié par TheBlackBaron, 07 février 2010 - 01:35 .


#173
_Aine_

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Happy endings here have to be accepting of the fact that happiness is a cozy blanket woven of many many compromises.



Riding off oblivious into the sunset is only possible if you have decided to sacrifice a moral, a standard, or a `someone`. We all find happiness in this (game) world, in what lengths we are willing to sacrifice some of our stepping stones along the path, and deny ourselves either a truth for duty or love for a happily ever after. Ìt`s kind of twisted, but no more than real life expects the same of us. Maybe we look for things to be easier in a game than in real life, so we can enjoy it and not sweat the details. I am starting to think that happiness is found in enjoying things *despite* having to sweat the details :)



Quite clever, those writers. :)

#174
SusanStoHelit

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TheBlackBaron wrote...

Well, when you put it that way...

That is an interesting way of looking at it, though. I myself would be perfectly happy rebuilding the Grey Wardens with Alistair (or wandering the world, or whatever) on a female PC. It's not "white-picket fence" but it is a nice note to end on.

Still can't imagine anybody actually liking the end to the Morrigan romance, though, at least from a personal perspective. As I've said before, story-wise it's great. 


I liked the Morrigan romance both story-wise and personally. My character went into it with eyes wide open, knowing it wasn't permanent (and I had no foreknowledge, I wasn't metagaming). I accepted it for what it was. And when it was over, it was over. My character felt a bit sad and disappointed that it was over.

But even irl, if someone I'm in a relationship with wants to call it quits - that's their choice, and I accept it. If both parties aren't willing and aren't committed it simply isn't going to work. Goodbye, farewell, it's a shame and I regret that it couldnt' have been more, move on. It's not the end of the world (this one, or Thedas) if a romance doesn't work out. Love doesn't conquer all.

I suppose that's why the Zevran and Leliana romances don't quite work for me. They require my characters to accept things in a romantic partner that they just feel are wrong (and yes, that's because I feel they are wrong). I don't mind the bisexual thing, or the sexually experienced thing. Not a problem for me ingame or irl. But being an assassin, killing people for money or for whatever reason Leliana does it, is just wrong.

And yes, I understand that Zevran at least had no choice. So the murder I can forgive in Zevran at least, but not the fact that he enjoyed it. And furthermore, that he still enjoys it and wants to go on doing it.

If I found that I was in a relationship with a mafioso or a triad member, no matter how much I loved them I'd leave them in a heartbeat.

#175
Barbarossa2010

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Susan, I believe you are absolutely correct about the male/female view of the Morrigan/Alistair romances. I was going to invoke that with many of the criticisms I've seen regarding female views of the Morrigan romance. The female PCs do have an ending I was intrigued by in an Alistair romance, in that Alistair refuses to allow his love to make the killing blow and sacrifices himself for her. Tp me that is just Epic!

This was the equivalent ending my PC got on a sacrificial tack, romancing Leliana. No white picket fence for him, but a huge statue, a memorable eulogy (even if delivered by Anora), Sten's understated gesture of respect, interment in Weishaupt and a mourning lover writing an epic ballad and then offing herself to be with her beloved in the after life. Again, Epic!

You may very well feel that Morrigan was well in character. Truth is, we really don't know without knowledge of her true intent. I believe your view of her is debatable attested to by the commentary of many more than I.  It is not unrealistic to expect people can and do change (in the DA universe Zevran certainly did, in a way unimaginable at our first meeting if you got his "final mission" confession and he professes himself to your service even if you are friends).  Regardless, let's say you are correct.  If so, then it is tragic (as I constantly harp on) that the PC is denied the same opportunity many are so quick to defend for Morrigan. Because of this, the Dark Ritual becomes nothing more than an unavoidable plot bridge to a sequel rather than some high-minded testimonial to the fidelity of her in-character persona.   

Let me illustrate. My PC was a dedicated Grey Warden under oath to fight the Blight by all means necesssary. If character integrity were the overriding concern of this story (and I disagree because most of us witnessed Zevran's transformation) then he would have taken action once Morrigan had shown herself to be a highly likely threat to Ferelden and a possible instrument by which to extend the current Blight or make infinitely worse. If her intentions were otherwise, it would have come to light quickly. If she wished to be vague, and in character, as many say, then the PC should have been allowed reciprocity (it is an interactive story after all) to deal with a situation that (as far as he knew) was most likely a grave threat (we are not allowed knowledge to think otherwise) in direct contradiction to what the Grey Wardens stand for.

Since realism and character integrity are important, I would argue that the PC should have been allowed to maintain his in-character integrity and have the opportunity to slay her on the spot to keep her from gaining access to another Warden, in order to prevent a budding catastrophe, that you or others might very well have to deal with, in the not too distant future. Like I said, if her intentions were clean, I bet she would have sang like a bird when faced with her own mortality and survival, which we know from her in-character profile, are extremely important to her. My Warden had threatened far more dangerous foes than she. If she was no real threat with reasonable (according to the Warden) intent, he would have found out quickly and then probably given her what she wanted based on her answer. As it was, her silence destroys her credibility, yet the PC is forced to act in a way foreign to his personality and not ever allowed to pry too deeply at this major turn of events, which did not fit his persona.

Despite her ability as a mage, she was no Gaxkang or high dragon, there is no shape she could transformed into that he had not defeated already, and if it came down to it, she would have fallen quickly under the blade of a Warden with Shield Mastery, Strength of 65 (even an Ogre Alpha, not to mention any mage, is stunned by the third blow of a Shield Pummel at this level of strength), and high spell/spirit resistance. If character fidelity is of overriding concern to the writers, then the PC should have been accorded the same for the sake of the story's integrity. No, she and Flemeth (who we are led to believe is not dead) are plot untouchable, and Morrigan was given all the power at the Dark Ritual, a power she did not truly possess imo, and the PC was not, which I found unrealistic, contrived and, yes, a let down after 60 + hours of gameplay. This is my main criticism: that Morrigan was allowed to stay "in character" (which I would characterize as more like a relapse back to the swamp), ambiguous, and in charge, and the same would (uncharacteristically) be denied the PC, despite everything he/she had done up to that point.

Harsh?  Maybe.  Certainly no more so than her proposal and verbal ambiguity.  Most certainly realistic, and definitely within the bounds of the story/character integrity many are quick to invoke. 

Modifié par Barbarossa2010, 07 février 2010 - 04:13 .