262 réponses à ce sujet

[SusanStoHelit]

@ Barbarossa2010

I won't quote all that, lol, but I do have the following responses - although I'm running out of time so I'll need to be quick.

Of course characters (and people) can change - but that change has to be one they've chosen to make. They will not change because you want them to. To believe that they will is to fool yourself.

Zevran changes in that he becomes open to love and a commitment to the Warden - if you romance him, of course, not otherwise. Nevertheless, other than that his character doesn't change much at all. He certainly declares no interest in wishing to give up the life of an assassin; nor is there a change in his moral or ethical compass. And my wishing that he would change in those ways will not make him do so. As I said, that's one reason I find romance with him less than appealing. So, am I less than delighted by his character as a potential romance? Yes, I am. Am I surprised or upset that he doesn't change in the ways that I would like? No, I'm not. That's his character as the writer conceived it.

Morrigan is also true to herself. She does change - she learns to love. But she doesn't change in her view of love - she still thinks that it's ephemeral and not to be valued as other things are. Now, I happen to believe, personally, that she's wrong. But she is true to what she believes. She will, I think, if given the chance, learn that her beliefs are out of true with reality - but she needs time to do that, and it still need to be by her own choice.

As for the character integrity of the Warden, and being able to kill Morrigan because you suspect her motives - that's a different matter. If I killed all the characters whose motives I suspect, and whom I don't know enough about, that would leave me with - Alistair and Dog. And even if I suspected Alistair I couldn't get rid of him either. Is this a plot device? Yes. But at least with Morrigan you can tell her to leave - and she'll go - if you don't trust her. And refuse her offer when she comes back in Denerim. Not one of the others is completely open with me at first - Leliana outright lies to me. Sten is less than open. So except for Dog and Al, none of them are really trustworthy. And most of them are emotionally crippled in some way.

If character integrity is so important that you must trust all your allies and know all their motivations - well, you'll be pretty lonely out there. Trust must be earned - on both sides - and even then giving it is a personal choice. And only if there isn't something more important than that personal trust at issue. Example: spies don't tell their loved ones all they know or have access to, despite their love and trust. Neither do heads of state. Or soldiers.

In other words, people may have reasons to keep things from their loved ones that are very valid. They may have nefarious reasons for doing so, too, of course. But the presence of secrets does not in and of itself mean untrustworthiness or, indeed, lack of love. We don't know the reasons behind Morrigan's lack of openness, or why she does what she does. You are free, of course, to interpret that in the worst possible way. I choose not to.

[Edited for clarity.]

Modifié par SusanStoHelit, 07 février 2010 - 04:34 .

[Addai]

Why kill Morrigan exactly? Because she might gain access to another Warden before the archdemon is killed? All three of you, on that one night? Riordan is right out, Alistair will not do the ritual unless the PC convinces him. It seems obvious to me that the only way the ritual happens is if the warden PC wants it to. And the game gives you the choice, accent on choice, to say "no way." What exactly is the problem?

[Nonvita]

Barbarossa2010 wrote...

Since realism and character integrity are important, I would argue that the PC should have been allowed to maintain his in-character integrity and have the opportunity to slay her on the spot to keep her from gaining access to another Warden, in order to prevent a budding catastrophe, that you or others might very well have to deal with, in the not too distant future....

This is my main criticism: that Morrigan was allowed to stay "in character" (which I would characterize as more like a relapse back to the swamp), ambiguous, and in charge, and the same would (uncharacteristically) be denied the PC, despite everything he/she had done up to that point.

I'm not sure what would really be gained from this... You have the choice to make, and you make it. You have no actual control over Morrigan, and pretending otherwise is kind of silly. I do disagree that the Warden could defeat Morrigan in battle--she has the distinct upper hand because she has no reason to care about winning. All she'd have to do is stun you for a few seconds and she'd be gone--she has no reason to stay for the entire battle, so why would she bother with it? The option to try and kill her would just end up the same way as currently, with her leaving in her wolf form. Maybe it would give you the opportunity to try and exert some control over her, or express your dissatisfaction with her offer, but storywise it adds very little. I would actually find it more humiliating.

[Barbarossa2010]

@Susan,

I can understand why Zevran may have not been to your liking as a romance. This certainly falls under the male/female view of things. Zevran was a great friend and comrade in arms, his "confession" about his last mission was one solid piece of writing and endeared me to him, (obviously from the POV as a friend and warrior--he proved himself someone I could count on when the shat hit the fan), certainly not as a lover. I get that. On the plus side, he wanted out of the Crows and stood with my Warden when confronted by them.

Leliana was sort of his female equivalent. She was, however, pious and seeking redemption (and she would let you know it as well), seemed sincere (was convinced of this when being questioned by spirit guardian at the entrance to the Guantlet); even if she was initially hiding her past, she does come clean and presented herself deserving of a second chance. She at least struggled with the enjoyment of killing and was looking for a hand to not fall off into the abyss.

You see who Sten was at the end. If you get his quest, it does at least, give a framework as to his atrocities. There can be no doubt in his loyalty as warrior. My PC worked hard to max his approval out and being called "Kadan" left no doubt in my Warden's mind as to his loyalty (again, as a soldier). The epilogues at a sacrificial end tell all about him and Leliana. Zevran, does return to the Crows as it's leader however.

Regarding Morrigan, she most certainly is true to what she believes (whatever that is), and while initially stunned, I did get that part of it. I didn't want to change her at all. It was what it was and would have been futile anyway. But then I thought upon reflection...what she was proposing was something way beyond simply hiding one's past indescretions or even one's personal deepest ,darkest secrets. What she proposed, at a most inopportune time I might add, and at face value (you are certainly given no information to think otherwise as she is allowed to remain silent or vague) sounded very wrong, and was something that in all likelyhood could have devastating consequences for all of Thedas, not just my Warden.  Yet he was not allowed to interrogate with any depth at all, even as a Grey Warden with a vested interest in knowing her intent in toying around with the essence of the very thing he exists to destroy. It looked to my Warden like she was playing with fire, as well as it might well be something way beyond her ability to control.

Morrigan turned into the professional on a dime at the Ritual. No problem.  My Warden asked her why she hadn't told him sooner and her vague response ran along the lines of "you wouldn't have believed me." Huh? Of course I would. This is one small example in the dialogue where I realized I hadn't been snookered so much by Morrigan, but the writers. Once I realize that, I said OK, I got it...plot device, now it's my turn to be the professional and play the Warden...crickets; nothing. The only real option with being presented the Ritual as it was, in order to stay in character, was a sacrificial death, so as to not be complicit in something that I was only allowed to view (a reasonable position based upon what I was allowed to know) as very wrong. I can envision no realistic reason for her to remain silent as to her intent at that point, from a pragmatic view, if not one of mere human concern. I turned her down, she had nothing to lose at that point, but at least, another possibility to gain what she wanted if she came clean. It didn't fit.

It wasn't so much about her beliefs, I expected that; but admittedly didn't like it having romanced her. It had more to do with my Warden' beliefs and oath being artifically neutralized. He may have very well interpreted it in the worst possible way, but alas he wasn't given the realistic opportunity to be his true character in order to know for sure, was he?

Of course, had my Warden had his opportunity, we wouldn't have entire blogs opened for Morrigan abandonment therapy and a slew of budding riots, in order for Bioware to build early demand for a sequel now would we?

Modifié par Barbarossa2010, 07 février 2010 - 06:31 .

[Barbarossa2010]

Addai67 wrote...

Why kill Morrigan exactly? Because she might gain access to another Warden before the archdemon is killed? All three of you, on that one night? Riordan is right out, Alistair will not do the ritual unless the PC convinces him. It seems obvious to me that the only way the ritual happens is if the warden PC wants it to. And the game gives you the choice, accent on choice, to say "no way." What exactly is the problem?

There is no assurance about either Alistair or Loghain, given the possible "reward" of their compliance.

[Barbarossa2010]

Nonvita wrote...

Barbarossa2010 wrote...

Since realism and character integrity are important, I would argue that the PC should have been allowed to maintain his in-character integrity and have the opportunity to slay her on the spot to keep her from gaining access to another Warden, in order to prevent a budding catastrophe, that you or others might very well have to deal with, in the not too distant future....

This is my main criticism: that Morrigan was allowed to stay "in character" (which I would characterize as more like a relapse back to the swamp), ambiguous, and in charge, and the same would (uncharacteristically) be denied the PC, despite everything he/she had done up to that point.

I'm not sure what would really be gained from this... You have the choice to make, and you make it. You have no actual control over Morrigan, and pretending otherwise is kind of silly. I do disagree that the Warden could defeat Morrigan in battle--she has the distinct upper hand because she has no reason to care about winning. All she'd have to do is stun you for a few seconds and she'd be gone--she has no reason to stay for the entire battle, so why would she bother with it? The option to try and kill her would just end up the same way as currently, with her leaving in her wolf form. Maybe it would give you the opportunity to try and exert some control over her, or express your dissatisfaction with her offer, but storywise it adds very little. I would actually find it more humiliating.

I completely disagree.  But opinions are certainly ripe for debate.  To prevent the possibility of catastrophe, and a Warden should assume the worst I think, I would say there is much to gain.  But neither of us really know now do we?  What she proposes is no small thing and she wishes to toy around with the essence of the very thing you are sworn to destroy.  All we know for sure is that you are not allowed to pry too deeply as to her intentions of attracting the soul that currently resides in the Archdemon, and that is out of character for a Grey Warden. 

But you inadvertently hit upon a good point.  There is no sequel without this Ritual.

Modifié par Barbarossa2010, 07 février 2010 - 06:33 .

[Roflpie]

The romances in Dragon Age: Origins are a lot less messed up and creepy than the romances in Baldur's Gate 2. I mean, you can't seduce an elderly woman who is recently widowed and you can't take advantage of a crippled elf, thank the Maker. The romances did a very good job of showing you the depth of Morrigan, honestly. In my first play-through I hated her honestly, but the second, during the romance, I actually began to like the character and understand her motivations and care about her, and wish I had dialogue options to make her less... Morrigan-like, if you will.



Alistair is Alistair. His whole personality is pretty fun and interesting, and being a "paladin"-like character who also had personality was fun to see, as I tend to play "Lawful Good" types myself. Lelianne's romance was very endearing, but I'm a silly romantic, honestly. What can I say, I like it when good-guys are lovey-dovey, and her accent didn't hurt her chances, eh?



The really weird one, though, is Zevran. I don't know if I've done it corectly or not. He'll sleep with me literally from the moment he joins my party, though this may be due to problems with mods I'm using, I don't know. His background is interesting, and I like his personality. It suits him, and makes him a personable character that you can relate to, while still being a "bad guy". Also, bisexual elves (Ha ha, redundant). What's not to feel vaguely weirded out about?

[Roflpie]

The romances in Dragon Age: Origins are a lot less messed up and creepy than the romances in Baldur's Gate 2. I mean, you can't seduce an elderly woman who is recently widowed and you can't take advantage of a crippled elf, thank the Maker. The romances did a very good job of showing you the depth of Morrigan, honestly. In my first play-through I hated her honestly, but the second, during the romance, I actually began to like the character and understand her motivations and care about her, and wish I had dialogue options to make her less... Morrigan-like, if you will.



Alistair is Alistair. His whole personality is pretty fun and interesting, and being a "paladin"-like character who also had personality was fun to see, as I tend to play "Lawful Good" types myself. Lelianne's romance was very endearing, but I'm a silly romantic, honestly. What can I say, I like it when good-guys are lovey-dovey, and her accent didn't hurt her chances, eh?



The really weird one, though, is Zevran. I don't know if I've done it correctly or not. He'll sleep with me literally from the moment he joins my party, though this may be due to problems with mods I'm using, I don't know. His background is interesting, and I like his personality. It suits him, and makes him a personable character that you can relate to, while still being a "bad guy". Also, bisexual elves (Ha ha, redundant). What's not to feel vaguely weirded out about?

[RunCDFirst]

I liked how the romances played out in my first playthrough. They were dramatic, but believable and in the end both interests abandoned my PC making him the ultimate tragic hero. So good. 

Roflpie wrote...
The really weird one, though, is Zevran. I don't know if I've done it correctly or not. He'll sleep with me literally from the moment he joins my party, though this may be due to problems with mods I'm using, I don't know. His background is interesting, and I like his personality. It suits him, and makes him a personable character that you can relate to, while still being a "bad guy". Also, bisexual elves (Ha ha, redundant). What's not to feel vaguely weirded out about?

For me, Morrigan was practically ready to jump my bones the moment we got to camp. To be fair, I did butter her up before talking to her with lots of gifts to make up for the fact she disapproves of you, your clothes, your hair, your choices, your friends, your family, your class, your race...

[Nonvita]

Barbarossa2010 wrote...

I completely disagree.  But opinions are certainly ripe for debate. ../../../images/forum/emoticons/smile.png
To prevent the possibility of catastrophe, and a Warden should assume
the worst I think, I would say there is much to gain.  But neither of
us really know now do we?  What she proposes is no small thing and she
wishes to toy around with the essence of the very thing you are sworn
to destroy.  All we know for sure is that you are not allowed to pry
too deeply as to her intentions, and that is out of character for a
Grey Warden. 

But you inadvertently hit upon a good point.  There is no sequel without the Ritual.

Hehe, sorry if I come across as too critical, it's just nice when people can respond to critiques of their argument. You do have a valid point that the option to kill (or try to kill ) Morrigan is lacking. And I can understand that from a character point of view. (Of course, as a female, perhaps I don't have quite the same reactions to her.) Story-wise, I just don't really think it would add much. She has no reason to stick around if you tried to fight her, and she could easily escape from a confrontation. And as you said, it's obvious she is kind of essential to future plots... I just hate bringing that up because it's more interesting having valid reasons for people's actions in the here and now.

Roflpie wrote...

The really weird one, though, is Zevran. I don't know if I've done it correctly or not. He'll sleep with me literally from the moment he joins my party, though this may be due to problems with mods I'm using, I don't know. His background is interesting, and I like his personality. It suits him, and makes him a personable character that you can relate to, while still being a "bad guy". Also, bisexual elves (Ha ha, redundant). What's not to feel vaguely weirded out about?

Yes, he will sleep with you very easily, but the reasons for that are explained very well by his background. And there is far more to his character than appears at first sight, which is why he actually makes such a great romance. You can see his loyalty even just by becoming friends with him, and the lengths he'll go for a Warden who romances him are quite astounding. (An Ultimate Sacrifice ending with him romanced will easily show you how much his idea of love changes from the beginning.) You do have to have an open mind about the relationship, but there's a lot to it, and it's completely worth pursuing for anyone with the desire.

I think all the romances in the game are great in their own way. Enough that people feel very strong emotions to the characters, which is the greatest testament to quality there is!

[Inquisitor Recon]

I honestly didn't care for the romance much. Too busy being a badass I guess. I did romance Leliana but I didn't feel very strongly about it.



Whats this in Baulder's Gate 2 about taking advantage of a crippled elf?



I don't recall NWN, ME, or KOTR having a gay option, in ME there was that Asari but does that count? I must wonder if Bioware trying to appeal to the politically correct crowd or something? Or if there going for controversy is the best marketing angle...

[Venix245]

first person to say they didnt really feel much for the romances =( ah well if you didnt you didnt lol and just looked back at my last post turned ut into an INSANE triple post, i dont even know how that happened O_o im not feeling enough love Leliana round here people lol its quite intresting to read people's opinoins on this subject and how deep the character's are

[Sabriana]

SusanStoHelit wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

That they're fabulous, of course!

Or that they're Machiavellian masterminds, or stock villains from a silent movie who twirl their mustachios while committing evil deeds. I can just picture it, let's give the guys a romance that women will like - and vice versa. That way, no-one will be happy.

And if they want a happy ending, the romantic little putzes, they'll have to go for the remorseless bisexual assassin who enjoys killing people, or the psychotic bisexual assassin who is also a pro-chantry freak and who wants to put her lover's eyelashes in a jar.

Am I right in guessing that you haven't played the Zevran romance yet?

[ejoslin]

Heh, yes, Zevran is not remorseless. Funny thing, Leliana actually is. The surface is different than what's going on underneath.

[Sabriana]

@ Ejoslin

She does indeed. The way she tells it to my PC is creepy, she actually sounds cheerful and happy when she tell her (my PC) that she had fun doing it and enjoyed it.

[Dlokir]

Myself I regret the romances in The Witcher, fast, efficient, not much words and a lot of action, ie how it should be. You even had a book collecting pictures of all your romances through the story, that was kicking stuff.

[Nightvision91]

I had my character romance Morrigan at first. Really enjoyed the banter with her until she got to the "love" point, and wouldn't talk to me. So I went to the good old singing spy that is Leilana.

[Chas1024]

SusanStoHelit wrote...
Haha, I just had a thought. Men seem to be okay with the female warden endings for the Alistair romance. And women are happy with the male warden endings for the Morrigan romance.

What does this tell you about the Bioware writers?

As a male who is happy with the Morrigan romance ending what does that say about me? And do I really want to know?

[speedy111280]

The romance was one of the most important parts of the game for me. I was especially pleased with having my female Warden's romance Leliana, there was just something extra touching about that one for me. It's probably because Leliana's personality appeals to me more than the others.

[Venix245]

just romanced Leliana....... Again lol

[Nillaith]

Romance helped a lot to get me even more immersed in the story on my first playthrough...and with the aid of an annoying habit of mine, it made my character develop into some pitiful excuse for a Grey Warden, taking dubious decisions for even more dubious reasons  (which I find it amazing nonetheless).

See, I was playing an elf mage and since Ostagar I'd already decided I'd romance Alistair if he was one of the possible candidates, just for the sake of curiosity: I'd found the argument he had with the Circle mage on the first encounter funny, and it seemed interesting. So after going on for a while I was surprised to find myself practically blushing IRL at the rose cutscene. To be honest, I can't predict for sure how I'd react if I was actually given flowers or something similar, but I've always dismissed such things as cheesy. The point is I kept playing, the story followed its course and everything seemed happy. I even managed to get Zevran into my tent (again, I was still experimenting with the game :innocent:) right before the ice-melting "maker's breath, but your beautiful"-then-kissing cinematic, so I was forced to choose between them both. Needless to say, I chose Alistair: his "cuteness" seduced me in the end and I became a fangirl :happy:

But then I spoilt myself on the internet -baaad, baaad decision- and found out about him being actually of royal blood (I played the Redcliff part last, just before the Landsmeet, so I had no idea at the time) and him dumping you if you weren't a human noble and made him king (let's not consider the "stay-as-a-concubine" option).

Hmmm....for the sake of role-playing, let's imagine that "the party met a soothsayer during their travels who foretold Illiria -my character's name- what would happen". She then got really pissed off and, as they say, "anger leads to the dark side", so she began to feel betrayed: firstly, for falling completely into that romantic trap, having to reject both Zevran (Twice! after the Taliesen fight it was Zevran himself who forced me to choose a second time between him or Alistair) and Lelianna (this one came by surprise...I had been building a good relationship, but I hadn't intended to romance her at all) for a not-so-innocent-as-he-seemed warden. She also resented all that time she'd been fighting, risking her life to constantly save Alistair's weak arse - I probably made a few mistakes building him, but he was generally the first to die-, only to find out that if SHE got to put him in the throne he'd break up with her as a reward (or as revenge, as some people have said). Recalling Wynne's previous insinuations towards their relationship and a couple of dialogue lines from Alistair himself only helped to make everything worse. 

Despite all this, however, she didn't have the courage to break up with him or even remove him from the main party. Instead, a delusional Illiria, out of selfishness and spite, finally resolved to support Anora as Queen and throw Alistair into the clutches of Morrigan and the dark ritual (that was painful to see, btw ) so both wardens could live happily 30years-after. Her justification would be some answer similar to "I DO deserve it, i've saved the world and the world won't take Alistair away from me!". The uncertain future of Ferelden, the "Old god" threat she'd contributed to create, well...she couldn't care less.

I managed to get a "happy" ending, but I'm still under the strong impression that I behaved like a real,crazy b*tch, and that's what I find brilliant about it all, the way it made me react so strongly (and in such a wrong way, lol). Kudos to Bioware for that.

Now I'm playing as a human noble (I'm at the Fade atm), and I'll probably set myself as queen this time, but I'm  also feeling quite tempted to develop Zevran's story. In the future I'll explore the dumping options as well, to balance my karma 

PS: I'm sorry for any crimes against spelling, as English is not my mother tongue.

[KrystylSky]

"Alistar was sweet and funny and I became so attached to him that I really struggle to romance any of the other characters in game."



I felt the exact same way - in fact i have been trying to romance another character but keep going back to Alister lol. I think I need Cullen to break the cycle lol but then again hes a Templar too.



Templar Love FTW! lol

[SusanStoHelit]

Sabriana wrote...

Am I right in guessing that you haven't played the Zevran romance yet?

Got 2 characters working on it now. Both at 100 Adore. Haven't got to Taliesin yet. Not once, so far, has he expressed remorse for his past deeds (except Rinna) or expressed a wish to be anything other than an assassin. And I've exhausted all possible conversation options.

I actually like Zevran as a companion. And he has great depths to his character. Certainly his childhood explains much. I don't blame him for it. As I've already explained, neither his sexual experience nor preferences bothers me. Nor does his having been an assassin - he had no choice. But now that he does have a choice - he has so far not expressed any desire to change. (And I suspect that he won't.)

I don't like Leliana as a romance prospect either.

I find it very difficult to romance Zevran as a 'good' character. I keep having to lie to him in dialogue - or take approval hits because he disagrees with almost everything I say, and vice versa. Now, I can make up for those hits with gifts, but that's not the point. The point is that he's just not all that compatible with the type of character I like to play. Hence my dislike for him as a romance prospect. The same goes for Leliana - an assassin and a religious freak (ick). I detest the Chantry, and I don't have much time for anyone who thinks that it or the Maker is great.

Edit: And I know that other people love them, and that's fine. But I'm finding it hard to get enthused, because I keep having to 'warp' what my characters (as I conceive them) would do in order to make the romances with Zevran and Leliana work. Maybe when I get to the 'end' of each of them, I'll feel differently.

Modifié par SusanStoHelit, 09 février 2010 - 11:25 .

[ejoslin]

Susan, just a thought about regrets. Zevran, the second he gets a chance to leave the crows takes it. The stories he tells the warden puts him in a bad light -- these are not boasts. If you call him cold, he tells you you'd think it would come naturally given how he was treated as a child, but that it doesn't. Then again, if you tell him you're not a murderer, he tells you to tell that to the people you've killed. He says he consoles himself that most of the people he kills had it coming (much like, say, Vaughn) though he sounds regretful he has inadvertently killed innocents.



My characters are never that good, though. Every single one is at least a thief, who will break into people's homes and steal from them. If there is a chest, I'm breaking into it.

[SusanStoHelit]

Ejoslin, thieving is one thing, I break into everything too. By the old D&D system, I most enjoy playing chaotic good characters - or chaotic neutral. I can do the lawful versions of those, but they're not as much fun.



But murder is another. And killing people who first attack you is not the same as murder. Ingame I've never killed anyone who didn't attack me first. And as for enjoying killing people - no. I just don't play that kind of character. Even angry, bitter, and out for revenge (my human noble), I only want revenge on the guilty party, who did attack me and mine first.



Haven't you murdered too? No, I've killed in self defence.

Don't you enjoy killing people, feeling the blade sink in? No.

And so on, and so forth.



Like I say, I can understand him. But for me to feel real warmth towards him, he'd need to want to stop being an assassin, to not want to be a murderer for money any more. It's not enough that he loves me and is loyal to me - he needs to have ethics, some understanding of right and wrong, and a willingness to act on that understanding.