154 réponses à ce sujet

[MikDawg]

+1 to the "give us our ability to crouch back". it makes sense and you know it! lol

[Kwonnern]

Feels good to have Dr. Solus in this thread though!

[CatatonicMan]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Crouching was made moot because of low cover. Some folks are talking as if low cover is the only cover in a combat. It is not. You can also take cover behind higher objects like walls. The ability to crouch is not what defines this game or any shooter.

If crouching was made moot, why were there so many places I wish I had it? Being glued to a chest high wall is fun and all, but it certainly isn't the only way to use cover.

Crouching is not in the game, and as far as I'm concerned the game is less for it. Leaving it out was a bad decision.

Modifié par CatatonicMan, 04 février 2010 - 04:07 .

[sos986]

mass effect 1 was groundbreaking in that it allowed the player to dictate the speed of the game, you could gung ho and chug through the missions at break neck speeds, or you could crawl up with a sniper rifle and point and click your way through. ME2 having a combat centric emphasis means: they sped it up, you run to cover, you run to ammo drops, you run cover run, thats the game it is now



i have feelings on both sides of this fence, as im a nervous stick pusher, and when that puts you in crawl mode...well its game over



i do miss it, but if it were braught back i would be for a more convenient mapping.

[N-cakes]

XxRTEKxX wrote...

I'm tired of losing half or most my shields trying to get to cover because he is running tall instead being able to crouch and u the waist high barrier i am headed to as cover until I reach it. Instead i get shot to hell trying to get there because shepard doesn't know how to keep his head down.

The problem with your argument is that even if you were crouching while running, it wouldn't do much of anything to protect you anyway. If you're out in the open, you're out in the open. Crouching makes you smaller but you're still out in the open where bullets can hit you.


You're way to freakin jaded, man. Just....don't be such a noob.<_<

Modifié par N-cakes, 04 février 2010 - 05:14 .

[dprinceofnight]

i miss crouching

[XxRTEKxX]

N-cakes wrote...

XxRTEKxX wrote...

I'm tired of losing half or most my shields trying to get to cover because he is running tall instead being able to crouch and use the waist high barrier i am headed to as cover until I reach it. Instead i get shot to hell trying to get there because shepard doesn't know how to keep his head down.

The problem with your argument is that even if you were crouching while running, it wouldn't do much of anything to protect you anyway. If you're out in the open, you're out in the open. Crouching makes you smaller but you're still out in the open where bullets can hit you.

You're way to freakin jaded, man. Just....don't be such a noob.../../../../images/forum/emoticons/angry.png

You might want to read what I said, and visualize what I am talking about. It might make it a bit easier for you to comprehend. In the event that you simply cannot understand my logic, then I'll try to explain it to you in a way even a child could understand.

Multiple targets.....say 20 meters ahead. There is a barrier 10 meters ahead, and it is the closest cover between myself and those targets.

Draw this out on a piece of paper if it will make it easier for you to understand.

That barrier, whether it is waist high or stomach high, is tall enough to provide me with enough cover if I am crouched until I reach it. It's all a matter of line of sight.

Think about this, if you duck past a corner when rounds are being fired at you, what is the purpose of going behind that corner? Simple, to break line of sight. With horizontal barriers crouching is the most effective way to break line of sight with targets beyond that horizontal barrier. If you are standing, walking or running, you are only a tall, solid target for them to easily hit. And if there are more than 1 target up ahead, then that just means you have run through a hellstorm of bullets just to get to that horizontal barrier.

Why do you think in Gears of War they made the run feature a combination of crouching? It's because when you are moving to the next available cover, your character has their head down, minimizing yourself as a target to your enemy, meaning it makes it harder for them to hit you.

If you can't understand any of this, then you are obviously the noob here, not me.

Free Gobbie wrote...

With first person shooters, it seems like the ability to crouch is mandatory and available in almost every game.

What about third person shooters? My mind is shooting blanks.

Ghost Recon 2
Ghost Recon 2: Summit Strike
Ghost Recon: Advanced Warfighter
Ghost Recon: Advanced Warfighter 2
Fallout 3........it's an RPG/3rd Person Shooter
SOCOM......all of them
Mass Effect 1........it too was an RPG/3rd Person Shooter(and it had crouch)
Army of Two
Army of Two:The 40th Day
Call of Duty Modern Warfare 2 (3rd Person online mode)
Lost Planet
Crackdown
Crackdown 2
GTA IV
Saints Row

I could name several more, but it's late, and I"m going to bed. Peace out ya'll.

Modifié par XxRTEKxX, 04 février 2010 - 06:36 .

[Xivai]

XxRTEKxX wrote...

N-cakes wrote...

XxRTEKxX wrote...

I'm tired of losing half or most my shields trying to get to cover because he is running tall instead being able to crouch and use the waist high barrier i am headed to as cover until I reach it. Instead i get shot to hell trying to get there because shepard doesn't know how to keep his head down.

The problem with your argument is that even if you were crouching while running, it wouldn't do much of anything to protect you anyway. If you're out in the open, you're out in the open. Crouching makes you smaller but you're still out in the open where bullets can hit you.

You're way to freakin jaded, man. Just....don't be such a noob.../../../../images/forum/emoticons/angry.png

You might want to read what I said, and visualize what I am talking about. It might make it a bit easier for you to comprehend. In the event that you simply cannot understand my logic, then I'll try to explain it to you in a way even a child could understand.

Multiple targets.....say 20 meters ahead. There is a barrier 10 meters ahead, and it is the closest cover between myself and those targets.

Draw this out on a piece of paper if it will make it easier for you to understand.

That barrier, whether it is waist high or stomach high, is tall enough to provide me with enough cover if I am crouched until I reach it. It's all a matter of line of sight.

Think about this, if you duck past a corner when rounds are being fired at you, what is the purpose of going behind that corner? Simple, to break line of sight. With horizontal barriers crouching is the most effective way to break line of sight with targets beyond that horizontal barrier. If you are standing, walking or running, you are only a tall, solid target for them to easily hit. And if there are more than 1 target up ahead, then that just means you have run through a hellstorm of bullets just to get to that horizontal barrier.

Why do you think in Gears of War they made the run feature a combination of crouching? It's because when you are moving to the next available cover, your character has their head down, minimizing yourself as a target to your enemy, meaning it makes it harder for them to hit you.

If you can't understand any of this, then you are obviously the noob here, not me.

Free Gobbie wrote...

With first person shooters, it seems like the ability to crouch is mandatory and available in almost every game.

What about third person shooters? My mind is shooting blanks.

Ghost Recon 2
Ghost Recon 2: Summit Strike
Ghost Recon: Advanced Warfighter
Ghost Recon: Advanced Warfighter 2
Fallout 3........it's an RPG/3rd Person Shooter
SOCOM......all of them
Mass Effect 1........it too was an RPG/3rd Person Shooter(and it had crouch)
Army of Two
Army of Two:The 40th Day
Call of Duty Modern Warfare 2 (3rd Person online mode)
Lost Planet
Crackdown
Crackdown 2
GTA IV
Saints Row

I could name several more, but it's late, and I"m going to bed. Peace out ya'll.

I concur. Not to mention there are times an enemy flanks you, and if you stick to cover you can avoid getting shot by the enemies in front of you. Then to turn and deal with the side enemy it unsticks you, and then your out of crouch sometimes and you HAVE to deal with the side enemy, but the people in front blast you. Just a nasty situation that could be rectified by a manual crouch for those times you need to mimize yourself, or use the cover system in a different way.

Know what we're trying to say?

[XxRTEKxX]

@Xivai, I get exactly what you are saying. I tried to explain it back on page 1 or 2, or maybe 3 but some people just don't seem to understand common sense.



There is also the times when I get hit by a rocket, only for my guy to get knocked back and have to keep trying to hit A to get back into their cover system. Instead of being able to simply hit the left or right thumbstick to crouch, Shepard is standing up, for the whole world to see.

[Xivai]

XxRTEKxX wrote...

@Xivai, I get exactly what you are saying. I tried to explain it back on page 1 or 2, or maybe 3 but some people just don't seem to understand common sense.

There is also the times when I get hit by a rocket, only for my guy to get knocked back and have to keep trying to hit A to get back into their cover system. Instead of being able to simply hit the left or right thumbstick to crouch, Shepard is standing up, for the whole world to see.

I know what you mean. I can't believe they would attempt to justfiy the lack of crouch in a game this third person shootery. It's not a BIG game breaking addition, but it could certainly only serve to compliment their cover system. Why all the hate?

Think about it, they want to make the best cover system ever. Then they leave out manual crouch... just sort of odd. There are times the auto stick cover system is wonky and you need a good old fashioned crouch mechanic. It is also relatviely easy to implement. I imagine they have much of the code for it fromt he first game, and they have the animation. To try and state crouch and cover are different things is silly. They are a part of one whole combat system.

It's like saying hot water isn't water because it's hot. It's just silly. I would be happy if the Dev's even just commented on themselves messing up. I mean we all make mistakes right? I could see them forgetting to add it or something else what with all the other stuff they had to get done. Although to outright claim it has no part of your game is just... silly.

People in the military use crouch and prone. Why? It mimizes yourself as a target. God knows how many smart lads kept their head down in a real fire fight when running and saved themselves a brain.  

[VasQuipQuip]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Crouching was made moot because of low cover. Some folks are talking as if low cover is the only cover in a combat. It is not. You can also take cover behind higher objects like walls. The ability to crouch is not what defines this game or any shooter.

Yeah, but you weren't useing the crouch button for any thing any way. We don't need 2 radar buttons homie. I never even used the radar in ME2.

[pedal2metal]

Yeah, I liked crouching too. I can live without it but yeah, I think there's no loss of shooter dynamics to have crouching so it's inexplicable why Bioware removed it. Lots of shooters do as already mentioned, in fact most top shooters do (Halo 1/2/3, GOW/GOW2 as more examples).



best regards,

Pedal2Metal

[yuncas]

Xivai wrote...

XxRTEKxX wrote...

@Xivai, I get exactly what you are saying. I tried to explain it back on page 1 or 2, or maybe 3 but some people just don't seem to understand common sense.

There is also the times when I get hit by a rocket, only for my guy to get knocked back and have to keep trying to hit A to get back into their cover system. Instead of being able to simply hit the left or right thumbstick to crouch, Shepard is standing up, for the whole world to see.

I know what you mean. I can't believe they would attempt to justfiy the lack of crouch in a game this third person shootery. It's not a BIG game breaking addition, but it could certainly only serve to compliment their cover system. Why all the hate?

Think about it, they want to make the best cover system ever. Then they leave out manual crouch... just sort of odd. There are times the auto stick cover system is wonky and you need a good old fashioned crouch mechanic. It is also relatviely easy to implement. I imagine they have much of the code for it fromt he first game, and they have the animation. To try and state crouch and cover are different things is silly. They are a part of one whole combat system.

It's like saying hot water isn't water because it's hot. It's just silly. I would be happy if the Dev's even just commented on themselves messing up. I mean we all make mistakes right? I could see them forgetting to add it or something else what with all the other stuff they had to get done. Although to outright claim it has no part of your game is just... silly.

People in the military use crouch and prone. Why? It mimizes yourself as a target. God knows how many smart lads kept their head down in a real fire fight when running and saved themselves a brain.  

very much agreed

[kraze07]

It sucks that you can't crouch. Does anyone know if it's possible to switch the side of the character that the crosshairs are on, you know so it'd be easier to aim around corners the are on you're left? I remember it was possible to do in the first game, but I haven't been able to do it this time around.

[yuncas]

definitely needs more crouch. I can't even count how many times i've tried to move from cover to cover and have been promptly face blasted and die in a pool of my own blood.

[yuncas]

and I gotta ask do enemies only concentrate on beating the snot out of me? Seems like even if a squad member is 3 feet away from an enemy they will still focus their way too accurate fire on my skull. Anybody get the same thing? If not I must be playing wrong.

[yuncas]

solution? needs more crouch.

[Selvec_Darkon]

Crouching is in game, all the models have the ability. I watched in dismay a few times as my NPC partners crouched and walked their way to cover, while I had to stand and storm taking masses of fire from it. For some reason however Bioware hasn't mapped it to a button. I imagine some modder could do it easy enough, should they wish, all the animations are there.

[Homebound]

Id like a crouching button in the game. Also Id like the sprint and cover button to be not the same. How many times have I run away from a firefight only to magically stick to an adjacent wall and get shot? How many times have I tried to run away from cover only to end up jumping over the cover?



Too many.

[yuncas]

Just_mike wrote...

Id like a crouching button in the game. Also Id like the sprint and cover button to be not the same. How many times have I run away from a firefight only to magically stick to an adjacent wall and get shot? How many times have I tried to run away from cover only to end up jumping over the cover?

Too many.

This too. Very much so.

[XxRTEKxX]

I think the reason people have been hating on the idea of us asking why crouch was taken out and asking if they could please bring it back, is simply because a lot of people on these forums have this slobbering love affair with this game and this series, so much so that they cannot stand the thought of someone questioning the reasoning behind why the devs left out or took something out, let alone want it back.

People are just so caught up in this game that if anyone questions a flaw in the game, they lash out and try to argue against something so simple as being able to crouch. If they don't want to use it fine, they don't, but to say the rest of us who would use shouldn't get to use it because in their own narrow minds it's a useless feature is flat out stupid and retarded in my opinion.

The Ghost Recon series........they used to have a ghillie suit, then when 3rd person came out in Ghost Recon 2 they left out the ghillie suit, and lots of people asked why, and asked for the devs to bring it back. People on those forums even lashed out at the people who wanted the ghillie suit to return because they themselves claimed it was pointless.........but to the rest of us who saw the need for it.......oh hell no, those people would not tolerate the idea of someone else getting what they want.

Crouching was in Mass Effect 1, it should be in Mass Effect 2. If people who don't see the need for it don't want to use it, fine, the devs should give them option in the menus to disable the use of it so it would be like nothing ever changed for them, but the rest of us who want to be able to crouch could enable that feature and use it to our heart's content.

It's not like this game in an online multiplayer, what ****ing difference would it make if crouching was in for those who would not use it. If used the ability to crouch it would in no way affect the gameplay, stats, achievements or reputation of other gamers, because I would be crouching on my TV, with my controller in my game's career.

Modifié par XxRTEKxX, 04 février 2010 - 06:11 .

[Archie591]

I'm curious - why should Bioware bring back crouch when most of the people don't really care, and those that do, play the game regardless of it missing?

Are you saying any of you would actually consider not buying the game or any future game from Bioware because of this?



I'm just curious. I personally don't care. Didn't need crouch to finish the game. Having it would be nice and all, but I literally didn't notice it missing until I read this thread.



The thing is that I'm not really trying to defend the Devs, but it's obvious that they removed it from the game for a reason. Do you guys really think that a gaming company consists only of suit and tie characters that have never played a game?

Most gaming companies, more specifically the actual people making the game are avid gamers themselves. Add to that hundreds of QA testers, Beta version testers and god know who else - played the game hundreds if not thousands of times from beginning till end. Obviously crouching was never thought to be a serious issue, that was needed to be in the game. To all those professional and constant gamers, it felt like it was pointless.



Yeah, we as consumers have the right to complain and whatnot. But truth be told, we have Zero understanding how creating a game works. What is needed to change any part of the mechanics behind it. How much time and money, how many rewrites and design changes.



Unless some of you are actually producers in a videogame company you really have no idea. And no, being a programmer and knowing how to do it doesn't cover this. Even if changing this is code wise, easy. It make interfere with the entire game - from combat imbalance to area design problems.



Maybe they did try to incorporate it into the game, only to find out that the work needed to do so outweighed the value of said mechanic.



I'm just rambling to be honest. I'm not taking one side or the other. But it just seems like most gamers are on a personal quest to demand perfection from the world. Completely oblivious to the fact that things will not happen simply because they want it to. And the world usually doesn't work as simple as they thought.

Nobody to blame really, no ordinary gamer has any chance of understanding the intrigues that goes into producing a game, so it's only natural to expect the absolute best from these companies, regardless of the difficulty behind the demands.

[Xivai]

Of course we demand perfection from the world. It's the only way to reach new heights. Unless you want to live in a world of perpetual sub standard stuff.

[XxRTEKxX]

As far as the making of the game, it was in the last one and it is in just about every single shooter that is 3rd or 1st person.



I don't have to be a developer to understand the need and use of crouching in a shooter. If thes devs are gamers themselves then they should understand the use of crouching. My onky conclusion as to why they left it out is they want to force gamers to use their cover system and deny gamers the freedom of movement in a shooting game.



If my AI team can crouch si should I. If my character can crouch in the cover system he should be able to crouch outside of it.

[CatatonicMan]

Archie591 wrote...

I'm curious - why should Bioware bring back crouch when most of the people don't really care, and those that do, play the game regardless of it missing?
 Are you saying any of you would actually consider not buying the game or any future game from Bioware because of this?

I'm just curious. I personally don't care. Didn't need crouch to finish the game. Having it would be nice and all, but I literally didn't notice it missing until I read this thread.

It isn't just crouching, to be honest; but for the purposes of this argument such a small annoyance probably wouldn't stop me from buying another Bioware game. I would look more highly upon them if they fixed it, however.

The thing is that I'm not really trying to defend the Devs, but it's obvious that they removed it from the game for a reason. Do you guys really think that a gaming company consists only of suit and tie characters that have never played a game?
Most gaming companies, more specifically the actual people making the game are avid gamers themselves. Add to that hundreds of QA testers, Beta version testers and god know who else - played the game hundreds if not thousands of times from beginning till end. Obviously crouching was never thought to be a serious issue, that was needed to be in the game. To all those professional and constant gamers, it felt like it was pointless.

Their reason for removing it was because their cover system "made crouching unnecessary," which has already been proven blatantly false. Their reason was not a good one, certainly not good enough to leave the feature out.

 

Yeah, we as consumers have the right to complain and whatnot. But truth be told, we have Zero understanding how creating a game works. What is needed to change any part of the mechanics behind it. How much time and money, how many rewrites and design changes.

Unless some of you are actually producers in a videogame company you really have no idea. And no, being a programmer and knowing how to do it doesn't cover this. Even if changing this is code wise, easy. It make interfere with the entire game - from combat imbalance to area design problems.

Maybe they did try to incorporate it into the game, only to find out that the work needed to do so outweighed the value of said mechanic.

As the saying (kinda) goes, "You don't need to be an engineer to know that the bridge collapsed." I don't need to know the specifics of how the game was made to determine if the end product is lacking. In this case, even with only the small amount of game programming I've done, I'd wager that such a change would be fairly trivial.

Maybe it would affect the game, and maybe it wouldn't; it certainly can't be worse than what they did to biotics.

I'm just rambling to be honest. I'm not taking one side or the other. But it just seems like most gamers are on a personal quest to demand perfection from the world. Completely oblivious to the fact that things will not happen simply because they want it to. And the world usually doesn't work as simple as they thought.
Nobody to blame really, no ordinary gamer has any chance of understanding the intrigues that goes into producing a game, so it's only natural to expect the absolute best from these companies, regardless of the difficulty behind the demands.

You have to strive for perfection, otherwise you let people think that they can walk all over you. Besides, Bioware has a video around where they even say they are working toward perfection. I'm just trying to point out where they stumbled.

In an unrelated matter, this game was a massive disappointment for me, even more so coming from Bioware. It was not what I expected, nor what I wanted, of the sequel to ME. Every little niggling irritation just drives the point further home,

Modifié par CatatonicMan, 05 février 2010 - 01:13 .