91 réponses à ce sujet

[Happykola]

i was playing mordin's personal assignment today and the conversation over the dead krogan female quite aptly highlighted the problem with arbitrary morality meters like paragon and renegade.

When mordin was talking about the reasons behind the genophage he was 100% correct ethically speaking, it is demonstrably true that without a severely limited population the krogan would make war on the rest of the galaxy the weyrloc speaker conversation only a few minutes before is a perfect example of evidence supporting this. So when Mordin says that it's a choice between genophage and genocide (i.e. that the genophage saves millions of lives that would be lost in a galactic war and that population control is far better than mass slaughter) he is morally correct.

Now i try to lead a morally good life, that is to say that in all my actions i strive to achieve the greatest good of the greatest number and when i play RPG's i try to make morally right game decisions but in this case in order to get the paragon points for the conversation i had to tell mordan that he was wrong and that the genophage should never have been deployed i don't think that this is morally right but i said it anyway because i wanted to get the paragon points for charm options paragon ending etc.

I suppose what i'm really saying is that paragon and renegade aren't accurate representations of good and evil or even paragon and renegade. They're just arbitrary binary values set according to what the developers think is or is not morally correct. So if i want to max paragon in the game i have to commit acts that are morally reprehensible, or atleast abstain from comitting acts that i think are morally necessary (for example blowing up the gas tank under the Weyrloc speaker is a renegade action despite the fact that you are killing someone who wishes to see the galaxy bathed in the blood of innocents and who you will have to kill anyway whether you take it or not).

Of course i can just suspend my disbelief remind myself it's a game that i'm only going after points on a meter and move on, but this does considerable damage to my immersion and my attachment to my character.

I think bioware really hit the nail on the head with the dragon age morality system, your actions had serious consequences (for example destroying the urn of sacred ashes with leliana or wynne in the group) but they were your actions and there was no pressure to follow one arbitrarily set moral path, furthermore a wide range of moral world views were represented and some interesting moral questions were raised (Sten, for example).

I really just wrote this so i could organize my thoughts on the matter, if you have managed to reach the end congratulations and thanks for reading.

[izmirtheastarach]

How can something be "100% correct ethically speaking"? It is a matter of opinion. And what you are saying doesn't make sense. If neutering the Krogan is the "correct" choice, which it may well be, that does not negate the fact that it is morally reprehensible. Mordin understands this, why don't you?



Bioweapons are bad. Just because the reasoning behind their use is sound, doesn't make them any less evil.

[neubourn]

Shades of grey...thats what ME2 is all about. They want you to question your actions and make you go through many sidequests that have questionable ethics, and it really forces you to decide on your own what YOU think is good or bad. Its not simply "oh im a paragon so ill take the blue choice," no, they leave it to you to decide by having the dialogue options seem closer to shades of grey so you choose what you believe.

[ashmiranda3waymm]

izmirtheastarach wrote...

Bioweapons are bad. Just because the reasoning behind their use is sound, doesn't make them any less evil.

Weapons cannot be evil (as Thane would put it) because they are simply a tool. A gun is not evil even if used to murder an innocent. The person who murdered the innocent is evil. Weapons are morally neutral as they do not have any sort of sentience.

[izmirtheastarach]

ashmiranda3waymm wrote...

izmirtheastarach wrote...

Bioweapons are bad. Just because the reasoning behind their use is sound, doesn't make them any less evil.

Weapons cannot be evil (as Thane would put it) because they are simply a tool. A gun is not evil even if used to murder an innocent. The person who murdered the innocent is evil. Weapons are morally neutral as they do not have any sort of sentience.

A Bioweapon that causes millions of stillbirths is not a gun. So I will have to disagree with you there.

[ElBiggus]

I'm totally with you on this; other games that use a good/evil axis have managed to do it a lot better (Fable 2 and DA:O to name two) by having the judgements of your actions reflected in other people's stats, not yours -- if you did something nominally evil in DA:O then Leilani would like you less but Morrigan would like you more, and it was impossible to please all the people all of the time. MEs overly simplistic system not only hampers actual "role playing" (reducing it to more of a Choose Your Own Adventure book than providing real choice) it's not even internally consistent.

[Kuari999]

Thing you have to remember is Paragon and Renegade is not necessarily Good and Evil.  Can also be Lawful and Chaotic, among other things.

Modifié par Kuari999, 02 février 2010 - 10:49 .

[Myrmedus]

This is why I don't care if my action is perceived by the game as paragon or renegade, I do what I have to. I had 100% Paragon by the end but guess what my end-game choices were? Save the Collector Base, stick with TIM - those are about as Renegade as you can get but from a war perspective they're necessary...the only thing I'm concerned about now is that smile on TIM's face at the end :/



Then again who can refuse Martin Sheen ffs?



Anyway I would LOVE to see ME3 combine as many of the best elements of ME1, 2 and DA:O - if they can succeed in getting a bit of each of those games in addition to the standard ME formula it'll be God.

[ashmiranda3waymm]

izmirtheastarach wrote...

A Bioweapon that causes millions of stillbirths is not a gun. So I will have to disagree with you there.

What if it was used against a race of demon-men whose sole purpose was to bring as much bloodshed to the world as they possibly could? It would be morally wrong not to use any weapon that could wipe them out imo.

[TeaCokeProphet]

I understand, and it even ties in with others' disagreements. These different shades of gray are branded with the color red or blue not based on what they are morally correct or incorrect, but are so colored based on the personality that goes with the choice. If I were a "paragon" Shepard, I WOULD wait out the krogan making a speech merely on the possibility for diplomacy. A "renegade" Shepard WOULD blow up the gas tank because it would get rid of an obvious threat, because that threat was in the way of the goal.

[Kuari999]

Myrmedus wrote...

This is why I don't care if my action is perceived by the game as paragon or renegade, I do what I have to. I had 100% Paragon by the end but guess what my end-game choices were? Save the Collector Base, stick with TIM - those are about as Renegade as you can get but from a war perspective they're necessary...the only thing I'm concerned about now is that smile on TIM's face at the end :/

Not necessarily necessary...  Don't forget, EDI probably has all these data recordings that prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the reapers exist...  not to mention name one time Reaper tech has NOT backfired in ME?

[Vaenier]

I agree completely with the OP. Me and my friend constantly talk about forced morality in games like this and Oblivion and other RPGs. Morality isnt black and white and it is just insulting for a game designer to say their ethics are superior to someone elses, and that people should do everything their way if they wana be considered 'good.'

I think they shouldn't bother with tracking your paragon/renegade, simply let the player experience the consequences of their actions directly.

And the genophage was a "necessary evil" for everyone. I would prefer a way to eliminate the 99.9% stillbirths and simply have reduced breeding, but that gets complicated and off topic.

[ashmiranda3waymm]

Kuari999 wrote...

Not necessarily necessary...  Don't forget, EDI probably has all these data recordings that prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the reapers exist...  not to mention name one time Reaper tech has NOT backfired in ME?

Look, where it stands the council cannot do jack **** if the Reapers invade (remember Sovereign?). So being able to get them on your side is good and all, but still useless. Everyone is coming into this decision knowing that Bioware will make a way to defeat the Reapers without letting TIM have the base. But honestly, if you were in that situation, would you destroy the only chance the galaxy may have in fighting back against the Reapers because of your disgust with Cerberus? If you can honestly say "yes" to that question then you are either stupid or idealistically misguided to a fault.

[hetfool]

I partially agree... But I think the real problem with Paragon and Renegade is the context.



For example:



When talking to the Illusive Man for the first time, the Renegade options are to basically go along with everything. This means you are being a Renegade in the eyes of the galaxy, as Ashley points out later.



Sometimes Bioware gets confused and the context is about the person who are talking to instead of how the wider galaxy would view your choices... Perhaps there needs to be 4 choices instead of 2 ... Allowing you to build a reputation with an individual character and one with the wider galaxy.

[Barquiel]

ashmiranda3waymm wrote...

But honestly, if you were in that situation, would you destroy the only chance the galaxy may have in fighting back against the Reapers because of your disgust with Cerberus? If you can honestly say "yes" to that question then you are either stupid or idealistically misguided to a fault.

Well, yes...

Even Miranda (a renegade character) says it's a bad idea to keep the base. She abandoned Cerberus.

Modifié par Barquiel, 02 février 2010 - 11:03 .

[ashmiranda3waymm]

Barquiel wrote...

Well, yes...

Even Miranda (a renegade character) says it's a bad idea to keep the base. She abandoned Cerberus.

That's why Miranda is not in charge. Actually we are both still with Cerberus and quite content atm.

[Rastia]

Honestly I liked how the system worked for the game. Grant it I showed some renegade. But then again at the end of ME1 I had full paragon but I still let the council die. My character was tired of dealing with them by the end of the game, choose to put Ca[t Anderson at the helm. This game I found my character was still got 100% paragon and a little over the first block of renegade. But I found certain choices like your storming up through a building everything is shoting at you. You walk inot a room and a guy goes I am going to call my people. My Shepperd is still mentally tired and at that point she doesn't want to try to negotiate. So when the red R button showed up I clicked it and she shoved him out a window. Same goes with punching the new reporter that attacked her crediability in the first game. My Shepperd ages matured, still caring managed to break up the fight between Tali and Legion. Saved all the Geth but some of this is considering that there is a possibility in the future that the Geth will be needed like saving the insect peps queen from the last game.

[VettoRyouzou]

Frankly I side with the krogans on it, It is utter BS what they did and it just not the Genophage for some all mighty race that knows what best there the ones who cased this to happen to began with he even admits if the Salarians hadn't advanced the Krogan well passed there technology limit they may have worked passed there aggressions and maybe be more civil there are sign of this case being true, Wrex being a key example hell the krogan on Illium as well if they had been left alone they would of matured as a race. But the fing Salarians couldn't "hold the line" and screwed over there whole race and when it was over they rewarded them with "stable" numbers.





So no the system is fine it just the shades of grey.

[Popemaster123]

izmirtheastarach wrote...
Bioweapons are bad. Just because the reasoning behind their use is sound, doesn't make them any less evil.

Disagree.

Nothing is automatically good or evil, Bio-Weapons or not, it all depends on the person using it and the reasons for using it. <------Applies to real life too.

[ashmiranda3waymm]

Popemaster123 wrote...

Nothing is automatically good or evil, Bio-Weapons or not, it all depends on the person using it and the reasons for using it. <------Applies to real life too.

This.

[Myrmedus]

Kuari999 wrote...

Myrmedus wrote...

This is why I don't care if my action is perceived by the game as paragon or renegade, I do what I have to. I had 100% Paragon by the end but guess what my end-game choices were? Save the Collector Base, stick with TIM - those are about as Renegade as you can get but from a war perspective they're necessary...the only thing I'm concerned about now is that smile on TIM's face at the end :/

Not necessarily necessary...  Don't forget, EDI probably has all these data recordings that prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the reapers exist...  not to mention name one time Reaper tech has NOT backfired in ME?

The one time it hasn't backfired? The Lazarus project? The Reaper tech cannon on the improved Normandy SR-2 that punched a hole clean through the Collector Ship? There are quite a few instances of Reaper technology that have not backfired and in fact allowed humans to fight back where otherwise they would be doomed to failure. We're fighting a species that are millions upon millions of years old, we kind of need a bit of help there I think.

It's not the data that was important in that decision, it was the retention of the Collector technology in the war. Of course in-game you'll be able to do it the Paragon way, just like was stated earlier in this thread, but I play the game from a realism-perspective as if I WERE Shepard (which I believe is the way it should be played) and in reality we'd need that tech.

Modifié par Myrmedus, 02 février 2010 - 11:19 .

[WrexShepard]

Paragon and Renegade are not good and evil.



PARAGON IS GOOD, YES.



BUT RENEGADE IS NOT EVIL.



IT'S NOT THAT SIMPLE.



If you wanted to use DnD alignments, Paragon is more like Lawful Good, and Renegade is more like Chaotic Good.

[Kuari999]

ashmiranda3waymm wrote...

Kuari999 wrote...

Not necessarily necessary...  Don't forget, EDI probably has all these data recordings that prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the reapers exist...  not to mention name one time Reaper tech has NOT backfired in ME?

Look, where it stands the council cannot do jack **** if the Reapers invade (remember Sovereign?). So being able to get them on your side is good and all, but still useless. Everyone is coming into this decision knowing that Bioware will make a way to defeat the Reapers without letting TIM have the base. But honestly, if you were in that situation, would you destroy the only chance the galaxy may have in fighting back against the Reapers because of your disgust with Cerberus? If you can honestly say "yes" to that question then you are either stupid or idealistically misguided to a fault.

I'd be making sure EDI recorded enough to have absolute proof .  When you have that, the Council acts.  Either way, reason I destroyed it was because every time Reaper tech has been used, its given the Reapers an advantage...  and in fact, they know their tech.  Hell, Legion even said taking such tech puts people right on the path the Reapers desire.

[Frotality]

Vaenier wrote...


I think they shouldn't bother with tracking your paragon/renegade, simply let the player experience the consequences of their actions directly.

QF-ultimate obvious why the hell dont they use such an obvious superior system like DAO truth.

[CmdrFenix83]

WrexShepard wrote...

Paragon and Renegade are not good and evil.

PARAGON IS GOOD, YES.

BUT RENEGADE IS NOT EVIL.

IT'S NOT THAT SIMPLE.

If you wanted to use DnD alignments, Paragon is more like Lawful Good, and Renegade is more like Chaotic Good.

Well, they wanted Renegade to be Chaotic Good... however, it really comes off more as Chaotic Neutral if not eveil in most cases.  Generally you're just a ****** with most of your renegade/intimidate options.  Stuff like using an interrupt to make the first move and wipe out people that are goign to shoot at you in a minute... yeah, that's all well and good.  However stuff like threatening random people, shooting Conrad, etc are far from Chaotic Good.