91 réponses à ce sujet

[NightAntilli]

Paragon and Renegade are not supposed to represent morally right or wrong. It's supposed to represent if you prefer to be a nice guy, or a badass. If you want to play it by your morals, that's fine too, but then you'll have to choose a renegade option one time, and a paragon option another time..

[RandomPot322]

Paragon - Idealism

Renegade - Cynicism.

How I view it at least.

[KalosCast]

Paragon and Renegade worked better in the first game when you were still in the military. Paragon Shep was the mom, baseball and apple pie heroic soldier. Always doing things through the proper channels and protocol whenever possible, trying to save lives of noncombatants. He was a paragon of every military code of honor no soldier actually follows. Renegade Shep was the cowboy, focused on getting the job done no matter the cost, and that the mission objective takes priority before everything else. Politically, Paragon Shep is more interested in building the galactic community, while Renegade is more interested in the advancement of humanity, with Shepherd in particular coming out on top whenever possible.



They've never been about good and evil, and very rarely have I disagreed with the assignment of them.

[GamerttBone]

I see it as this



Paragon = Order

Renegade = Chaos



Is there a guide somewhere on how to help us? I played the first time through and did not max Paragon. Had about 3/4 and little over 1/4 Renegade. Playing it again trying to max both to see how it differs.



Though the first interactions with Tali is kind of bumming me out.



Also is there a way to search these forums?



Know I am a "old fart" but thought I was better with forums lol

[Happykola]

How can something be "100% correct ethically speaking"? It is a matter of opinion.

actually no, it's a matter of justification.

If neutering the Krogan is the "correct" choice, which it may well be,
that does not negate the fact that it is morally reprehensible.

morally reprehensible for what reason, would neutering hitler's father have been morally reprehensible?

They want you to question your actions and make you go through many
sidequests that have questionable ethics, and it really forces you to
decide on your own what YOU think is good or bad.

if this was the case i would be all for it, but it just isn't. If i go through the game making my own decisions based on what i think is good or bad then i will end up with a sub-par paragon/renegade score. To get 100% renegade or paragon i have to follow all the arbitrary renegade/paragon actions, the benefit for 50% renegade and 50% paragon is half the benefit for 100% paragon/renegade.

Bioweapons are bad. Just because the reasoning behind their use is sound, doesn't make them any less evil.

if i'm not much mistaken you're accusing an inanimate object of having moral agency, i'm afraid this is where i have to stop taking you seriously.



Its not simply "oh im a paragon so ill take the blue choice,"
the thing is that it really is this way, if you don't always pick the paragon option you won't get as much benefit as if you had made your own moral choices, in this way morality in mass effect 2 is reduced to always picking the top dialogue option and always right clicking.


Thing you have to remember is Paragon and Renegade is not necessarily
Good and Evil.  Can also be Lawful and Chaotic, among other things.

this is true in some cases and untrue in others but it hardly affects the point which is that in order to get the best rewards from morality you have to reduce your moral decision making to spamming the top dialogue option.


If I were a "paragon" Shepard, I WOULD wait out the krogan making a
speech merely on the possibility for diplomacy. A "renegade" Shepard
WOULD blow up the gas tank because it would get rid of an obvious
threat, because that threat was in the way of the goal.

i think if i were a quick-thinking shephard i would blow out the tank, this guy is in the middle of his speech about how he's going to massacre every other race in the galaxy clearly deiplomacy is not an option. Futhermore you have already tried to reason with him twice before the option to blow out the gas tank appears.


s if the Salarians hadn't advanced the Krogan well passed there
technology limit they may have worked passed there aggressions and
maybe be more civil there are sign of this case being true, Wrex being
a key example hell the krogan on Illium as well if they had been left
alone they would of matured as a race.

this is unlikely but possible, we can say with surety that there can be no certainty regarding what the krogans would have remained peaceful if they had not been given technology (gunshot wound became the largest cause of krogan deaths immediately after black-powder firearms were invented by the krogan). Whether it is true or not however has no bearing on the dilemma the salarian government has to make a decision, deploy the genophage and control the krogan population or do not and allow a brutal galaxy wide war to continue and risk the future of all council species. The point is that even if the salarians were at fault in causing the krogan aggresion (and that is by no means an easy claim to prove) it would still have nothing to do with the dilemma at hand (deploy genophage or do not deploy genophage)

Paragon - Idealism

Renegade - Cynicism.

How I view it at least.

again, this is true in some cases and untrue in others, but it still has nothing to do with the central issue.

Modifié par Happykola, 03 février 2010 - 12:32 .

[ElBiggus]

No search, sadly, so there are 150 pages of essentially the same dozen threads appearing anew every hour or so. From chaos comes order!



I struggled trying to work out which conversational gambits were paragon or renegade, but it turns out to be rather idiotically simple -- the top of the wheel is paragon, the bottom is renegade, and the middle is bland nothingness, with blue and red being supercharged versions...

[GamerttBone]

Yea I thought the top wheel and bottom wheel thing as well.



After getting Mordin the 2nd time I ended up with 5 renegade points...do you sometimes get them no matter what you do?

[ElBiggus]

With Mordin's recruitment quest there's the "find the assistant" side quest, and it seems if you miss him you get some renegade points.



(There are also some refugees to rescue and some looters to evict, which really hammer home the confused nature of the renegade/paragon business -- in the refugees apartment you can take 4000 credits from their safe in front of their noses, and then 30 seconds later get rewarded for giving looters grifef for stealing from dead people. WTF?)

[NineInchNall]

izmirtheastarach wrote...

How can something be "100% correct ethically speaking"? It is a matter of opinion. And what you are saying doesn't make sense. If neutering the Krogan is the "correct" choice, which it may well be, that does not negate the fact that it is morally reprehensible. Mordin understands this, why don't you?

Bioweapons are bad. Just because the reasoning behind their use is sound, doesn't make them any less evil.

Yes, actually it does make them less evil.  Things are neither inherently good nor inherently evil.  If a choices presented are a true dichotomy of correct and incorrect, then by definition the correct choice is the good choice. Until you've managed to grasp this fundamental concept in the metaphysics of morals, please do not comment on the subject.  Go read some Kant and Mill.

Seriously.  Those of us with third stage morality are talking.

Happykola wrote...


s if the Salarians hadn't
advanced the Krogan well passed there
technology limit they may have
worked passed there aggressions and
maybe be more civil there are
sign of this case being true, Wrex being
a key example hell the
krogan on Illium as well if they had been left
alone they would of
matured as a race.

this is unlikely but possible, we can say
with surety that there can be no certainty regarding what the krogans
would have remained peaceful if they had not been given technology
(gunshot wound became the largest cause of krogan deaths immediately
after black-powder firearms were invented by the krogan). Whether it is
true or not however has no bearing on the dilemma the salarian
government has to make a decision, deploy the genophage and control the
krogan population or do not and allow a brutal galaxy wide war to
continue and risk the future of all council species. The point is that
even if the salarians were at fault in causing the krogan aggresion (and
that is by no means an easy claim to prove) it would still have nothing
to do with the dilemma at hand (deploy genophage or do not deploy
genophage)

This was actually my justification for not
retaining the reaper tech at the end.  I've watched too many episodes of
Star Trek not to have the Prime Directive drilled into me. 

Modifié par NineInchNall, 03 février 2010 - 12:47 .

[GamerttBone]

ElBiggus wrote...

With Mordin's recruitment quest there's the "find the assistant" side quest, and it seems if you miss him you get some renegade points.

(There are also some refugees to rescue and some looters to evict, which really hammer home the confused nature of the renegade/paragon business -- in the refugees apartment you can take 4000 credits from their safe in front of their noses, and then 30 seconds later get rewarded for giving looters grifef for stealing from dead people. WTF?)

Got the assistant. But I let the guys go harrassing him because the kill option was on the bottom of the wheel.

Freed refuges from apartment, but yea I took their credits....maybe that gave me the renegade points?

Stopped the looters, did not stop them on the first playthrough because I felt it was hypocritical.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

Happykola wrote...

They want you to question your actions and make you go through many
sidequests that have questionable ethics, and it really forces you to
decide on your own what YOU think is good or bad.[/b]

if this was the case i would be all for it, but it just isn't. If i go through the game making my own decisions based on what i think is good or bad then i will end up with a sub-par paragon/renegade score. To get 100% renegade or paragon i have to follow all the arbitrary renegade/paragon actions, the benefit for 50% renegade and 50% paragon is half the benefit for 100% paragon/renegade.

And what's wrong with that? It sounds more like you're upset that Bioware isn't tailoring their morality system to your own preferences. If you thought the paragon option was wrong, don't choose it. However the idea of paragon represents someone who goes in with the mentality of 'save everybody'. Renegade is more ends justify the means. There are plenty of morality options throughout the game and there's probably more than a few exploits out there if you're dead set on getting full paragon. Not the game's fault.

Its not simply "oh im a paragon so ill take the blue choice,"
the thing is that it really is this way, if you don't always pick the paragon option you won't get as much benefit as if you had made your own moral choices, in this way morality in mass effect 2 is reduced to always picking the top dialogue option and always right clicking.

Again, you're choosing the top option. Preserving the genophage is renegade. Wanting to end it is paragon. It's not a complicated distinction.

Thing you have to remember is Paragon and Renegade is not necessarily
Good and Evil.  Can also be Lawful and Chaotic, among other things.

this is true in some cases and untrue in others but it hardly affects the point which is that in order to get the best rewards from morality you have to reduce your moral decision making to spamming the top dialogue option.

You decided to make a decision, you must live with the consequences. Kotor 1, if you want to maintain your darkside mastery bonus, you cannot take a light action. This maintains that loyalty to your morality yields greater rewards.

[Happykola]

This maintains that loyalty to your morality yields greater rewards.

of course i concede that i could quite easily do the right thing all the time and take the hit in rewards but i don't see why i should have to gimp my character just to do good, maybe i'll try it in another playthrough.

Again, you're choosing the top option. Preserving the genophage is
renegade. Wanting to end it is paragon. It's not a complicated
distinction.

right but preserving the genophage is the morally correct action, i suppose they could have intended for renegades to sometimes be right and paragons to sometimes be right. But if that's the case why does the game encourage you to max on of those bars? indeed if that's the case why bother with paragon and renegade why not just have good decisions and bad decisions.

It sounds more like you're upset that Bioware isn't tailoring their morality system to your own preferences.

i'm upset (i'm not sure that's the right word to describe my feelings on the issue but i'll run with it) because bioware has with one had made it impossible to make all the correct moral choices while sticking with one side of the scale and with the other encouraged me to stick to one side

Modifié par Happykola, 03 février 2010 - 01:18 .

[BaladasDemnevanni]

Happykola wrote...

This maintains that loyalty to your morality yields greater rewards.

of course i concede that i could quite easily do the right thing all the time and take the hit in rewards but i don't see why i should have to gimp my character just to do good, maybe i'll try it in another playthrough.

But what you're forgetting is this is a situation that *any* gamer has to face. If the system were designed the way you suggest, then we can't very well have rewards for any morality, can we? It's not 'gimping' your character as much as sticking to your guns. A renegade character would have to make the same choice if he chose to take a paragon route.

right but preserving the genophage is the morally correct action, i suppose they could have intended for renegades to sometimes be right and paragons to sometimes be right. But if that's the case why does the game encourage you to max on of those bars? indeed if that's the case why bother with paragon and renegade why not just have good decisions and bad decisions.

No, it's the renegade option. Calling it morally correct is going to turn this into an ethical debate on whehter the ends justify the means. That wouldn't be good. But paragon/renegade are much closer to objectivity. Renegade is noted for making, often brutal, sacrifices. Paragon is noted for taking the 'higher path', always searching for a better way. The game isn't influencing you in either direction. But its true that acting consistently in one way is going to help more in the long run than someone who is indecisive about their alignment.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 03 février 2010 - 01:28 .

[Happykola]

If the system were designed the way you suggest

i don't remember suggesting any particular design, unless by commending the dragon age morality system i was suggesting that me2 should have had a similar system (which i suppose is not an idea that i would be opposed to)

No, it's the renegade option. Calling it morally correct is going to
turn this into an ethical debate on whehter the ends justify the means.
That wouldn't be good. But paragon/renegade are much closer to
objectivity. Renegade is noted for making, often brutal, sacrifices.
Paragon is noted for taking the 'higher path', always searching for a
better way.

No, it's the correct option. I don't usually like making statements like that without justifying them but since you don't want to have an ethical discussion i'll have to leave it at that. The genophage is the better way (and if higher means better or more good then it's also the higher way), so by your definition of paragon the genophage should be the paragon option.

The game isn't influencing you in either direction. But its true that
acting consistently in one way is going to help more in the long run
than someone who is indecisive about their alignment.

that sentence contradicts itself, if the game is giving me better rewards for doing something then it's encouraging me to do it, if it isn't giving me better rewards for something then it isn't going to "help more in the long run".


I do see what you're saying here, it's not good and evil it's paragon and renegade but why should i be tied to a colour and a shiny emblem why not just allow me to do good and get the rewards morality systems are supposed to give you for doing good.

Modifié par Happykola, 03 février 2010 - 01:35 .

[RandomPot322]

Happykola wrote...

Paragon - Idealism

Renegade - Cynicism.

How I view it at least.

again, this is true in some cases and untrue in others, but it still has nothing to do with the central issue.

Going to say where it's not true?
Cause when i play, it seems to be that way.
Or you saying my perception is not valid.
Since really I did say it's how I view it, not how it is.

[Happykola]

Going to say where it's not true

that is absolutely fair and i would not expect you to believe me without any evidence, but it's late and i'm about to go to sleep. I'll see what i can do tomorrow.

Or you saying my perception is not valid.
Since really I did say it's how I view it, not how it is.

i mean if you're admitting that there is a difference between how you see it and how it is then you're admitting how you see it is not how it is, ergo you're admitting that your perception is invalid.

[KalosCast]

Once again, Full Paragon Shep is by the books shep, supporter of galactic community and the big savior hero



Full Renegade Shep is interested in getting the job done at all costs, more human-centric, and more of the badass who toes the line into being an anti-hero in a number of areas.



It's not good and evil, it was never intended to be good and evil. Hence why both bars are independent, they're differing viewpoints, not mutually exclusive goals. It's Ideal-driven and Agenda-driven.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

Happykola wrote...

If the system were designed the way you suggest

i don't remember suggesting any particular design, unless by commending the dragon age morality system i was suggesting that me2 should have had a similar system (which i suppose is not an idea that i would be opposed to)

Except that not all of Bioware's morality systems are meant to be carbon clones. Kotor is not Dragon Age, Dragon Age is not Jade Empire, and Jade Empire is not Mass Effect. Dragon Age is much closer to the classic good and evil.

No, it's the renegade option. Calling it morally correct is going to
turn this into an ethical debate on whehter the ends justify the means.
That wouldn't be good. But paragon/renegade are much closer to
objectivity. Renegade is noted for making, often brutal, sacrifices.
Paragon is noted for taking the 'higher path', always searching for a
better way.

No, it's the correct option. I don't usually like making statements like that without justifying them but since you don't want to have an ethical discussion i'll have to leave it at that. The genophage is the better way (and if higher means better or more good then it's also the higher way), so by your definition of paragon the genophage should be the paragon option.

I'm sorry, but you're misunderstanding if you think it breaks down to something so simple. This isn't good and evil. Paragon and renegade both represent 'good' it's how they go about achieving them that you don't seem to understand. Let me try again.

Paragon: any action that refuses to sacrifice human beings as pawns to some 'greater good'.
Renegade: any action that believes that the individual is expendable at the expense of the group.

You may not like it, but that's how Bioware's system breaks down. Unfortunately your counter to why the genophage is the correct option is quite lacking. I can bring up any number of counters. Most people hate the krogans out of simple fear, so they support the genophage. Because they do so out of fear, eventually their logic will lead to their downfall.

When you slip into the ends justify the means, you go down a slippery slope that eventually leads you to no longer needing a justification for what you've done. It's the classic tale of Darth Vader from Star Wars, Arthas from Warcraft III. The hero falls is a very common cycle.

The game isn't influencing you in either direction. But its true that
acting consistently in one way is going to help more in the long run
than someone who is indecisive about their alignment.

that sentence contradicts itself, if the game is giving me better rewards for doing something then it's encouraging me to do it, if it isn't giving me better rewards for something then it isn't going to "help more in the long run".


I do see what you're saying here, it's not good and evil it's paragon and renegade but why should i be tied to a colour and a shiny emblem why not just allow me to do good and get the rewards morality systems are supposed to give you for doing good.

Because that's just how the system works. It's a crappy answer, but that's what it is. The game rewards you for being consistent and dedication to your loyalty. I'll use another Kotor 1 example. I played it hardcore dark side, mastery bonus, etc, everything, but eventually I had to choose between killing a party member and losing my dark side bonus. What do you do in that situation? Well, I can give in to my morals and lose my mastery bonus. That's what morality is all about. You talked about sacrificing krogans for the greater good? Well, in game you may have to sacrifice your 'paragon bonus' for the greater good too.

[mundus66]

You shouldn't see renegade or paragon as a punishment, as long as you max the path you want to go and make all the decisions you think is right.



What i mean is, just because it gives you some renegade, you shouldn't skip it because you play a paragon char. Obviously if its the choice between paragon and renegade you gonna go with the paragon decision but in the situation you described, you might as well just pull the trigger even on a paragon char. Its not like you are losing anything in doing so.

[RandomPot322]

Happykola wrote...

Going to say where it's not true

that is absolutely fair and i would not expect you to believe me without any evidence, but it's late and i'm about to go to sleep. I'll see what i can do tomorrow.

Or you saying my perception is not valid.
Since really I did say it's how I view it, not how it is.

i mean if you're admitting that there is a difference between how you see it and how it is then you're admitting how you see it is not how it is, ergo you're admitting that your perception is invalid.

No, I'm admiting that a perception may not be the truth.
Not that my perception is not true.
My comment was that i merely meant that I said I was stating opinion, not fact.
And thanks for providing examples when you can.

[KalosCast]

mundus66 wrote...

You shouldn't see renegade or paragon as a punishment, as long as you max the path you want to go and make all the decisions you think is right.

What i mean is, just because it gives you some renegade, you shouldn't skip it because you play a paragon char. Obviously if its the choice between paragon and renegade you gonna go with the paragon decision but in the situation you described, you might as well just pull the trigger even on a paragon char. Its not like you are losing anything in doing so.

Yep, my "canon" Shep was full paragon and about 1/3 full Renegade at the end of the game, basically because I was trying to make them the biggest Big Damn Hero in the galaxy. As such they're more interested in protecting their crew and the innocents. The renegade was because of stuff with no penalty like dropping that explosive crate on the mercs in waiting on Illium or sniping that mech with Archangel's gun. Also: headbutting the Krogan because when am I gonna get another chance to do that?

[RandomPot322]

KalosCast wrote...

mundus66 wrote...

You shouldn't see renegade or paragon as a punishment, as long as you max the path you want to go and make all the decisions you think is right.

What i mean is, just because it gives you some renegade, you shouldn't skip it because you play a paragon char. Obviously if its the choice between paragon and renegade you gonna go with the paragon decision but in the situation you described, you might as well just pull the trigger even on a paragon char. Its not like you are losing anything in doing so.

Yep, my "canon" Shep was full paragon and about 1/3 full Renegade at the end of the game, basically because I was trying to make them the biggest Big Damn Hero in the galaxy. As such they're more interested in protecting their crew and the innocents. The renegade was because of stuff with no penalty like dropping that explosive crate on the mercs in waiting on Illium or sniping that mech with Archangel's gun. Also: headbutting the Krogan because when am I gonna get another chance to do that?

Yeah, once I knew I could max out my Paragon, i did some Renegade when I could. like shooting the gas tank.

[KalosCast]

RandomPot322 wrote...

KalosCast wrote...

mundus66 wrote...

You shouldn't see renegade or paragon as a punishment, as long as you max the path you want to go and make all the decisions you think is right.

What i mean is, just because it gives you some renegade, you shouldn't skip it because you play a paragon char. Obviously if its the choice between paragon and renegade you gonna go with the paragon decision but in the situation you described, you might as well just pull the trigger even on a paragon char. Its not like you are losing anything in doing so.

Yep, my "canon" Shep was full paragon and about 1/3 full Renegade at the end of the game, basically because I was trying to make them the biggest Big Damn Hero in the galaxy. As such they're more interested in protecting their crew and the innocents. The renegade was because of stuff with no penalty like dropping that explosive crate on the mercs in waiting on Illium or sniping that mech with Archangel's gun. Also: headbutting the Krogan because when am I gonna get another chance to do that?

Yeah, once I knew I could max out my Paragon, i did some Renegade when I could. like shooting the gas tank.

That one too. As a Paragon, Shep knows the universe-altering power of the heroic speech.

[x895771]

Paragon and renegade are not good and evil, they are also not mutually exclusive, which is why there is 2 meters while games like KOTOR had 1 that went both ways, you can make either decision based on your feelings on the situation.

Paragon is essentially a Paladin, a Paragon character considers the ramifications of the law first and foremost, the law states that genocide and biological weapons are bad, the Paragon does not decide what is or isn't right, he decides what is or isn't within the boundaries of the law.

A Renegade, on the other hand, completely ignores the law and does things based on his own accord. A renegade will always choose the options that are most efficient regardless of the legal ramifications.

Given the example of the Genophage, from a legal standpoint, bioweapons are wrong, because the council says so, because history says so, it does not matter if 1, 10, or 100 billion lives COULD be saved in using said bioweapon, it is still a bioweapon, and therefore, wrong. A Renegade would see the benefit in the controlled population and forsake the law in order to prevent the loss of lives down the road.

Neither path is perfect;

Paragons could be said to have a "holier than thou", "I'm better than you" attitude and would be the first to put their fingers in their ears while screaming lalalala rather than face a truth that counters their beliefs.

Renegades would be the ones that would have no problems with sacrificing innocent civilians if it works, Renegades live, pretty well, by the concept of "Whatever gets the job done".

most people can be said to be both Paragon and Renegade in their daily life. I, for example, have no problem driving 10mph over the speed limit(renegade) in order to get to a family member to the hospital(Paragon).

Paragon/Renegade is not an ethics choice, but a legal choice.

Modifié par x895771, 03 février 2010 - 02:15 .

[RandomPot322]

KalosCast wrote...



That one too. As a Paragon, Shep knows the universe-altering power of the heroic speech.

Taking the cheap shot is not always a bad thing.
Though I do feel dirty doing Zaeed's loyalty quest, cause getting his loyalty goes against My Sheps nature. But Shep knows he needs Zaeed's loyalty. sad.