532 réponses à ce sujet

[sinosleep]

Mordigan wrote...

Sinosleep, whats your take on the effectiveness of custom armor vs preorder armor?

I would imagine that the Blood Dragon armor would be the most effective armor for the Vanguard, seeing as you get a 15% damage boost for your powers, and 10% boost for shields.

And don't listen to these idiots.. 

You, me and a bunch of other guys know that the Vanguard class is extremely capable and very powerful when played correctly

Honestly I haven't put too much thought into that When I found out you couldn't remove the helm from the blood dragon armor I pretty much resigned myself to not using it. I tried it out any way, during the first few levels of my latest vanguard but it just looked awkward during cutscenes what with my air vents or whatever lighting up when I was talking. I'm sure statistically it's a good boost, but it's all standard armor for me.

Modifié par sinosleep, 07 février 2010 - 09:08 .

[vhatever]

Anyhway. Just loaded up my soldier and tried to see how fast I could clear some areas. Cleared the first part of the last map(ends with 2 scions and 3 explosive husks) in 2 mins 32 seconds, Didn't use any collector editon or bonus stuff or heavy weapons. It's about 4-5 habringers, 2 scions, 3 explosive husks, ~12 drones, 2-3 assassins, 2-3 guardians, and about 20-30 seconds of that time is platform swiching, so about 2 minutes killing time.



No way in hell an infiltrator or vanguard is matching that kill time.



I use miranda and legion.

[Graunt]

Mordigan wrote...

Sinosleep, whats your take on the effectiveness of custom armor vs preorder armor?

I would imagine that the Blood Dragon armor would be the most effective armor for the Vanguard, seeing as you get a 15% damage boost for your powers, and 10% boost for shields.

And don't listen to these idiots.. 

You, me and a bunch of other guys know that the Vanguard class is extremely capable and very powerful when played correctly

Clearly you've both demonstrated some ultra skills that the rest of us can't comprehend and experience hasn't proven that the Vanguard is anything but powerful.  Killing things and almost dying yourself each time is not powerful when other classes can kill at a similar, if not faster speed with much less risk invloved.  Being a fanboy doesn't change reality.  Neither of you are unique and special snowflakes and if you really believe you're "just better" with the game, all you've managed to do is demonstrate just how god awful the class truly is on insanity then.

Modifié par Graunt, 07 février 2010 - 05:41 .

[Hoffburger]

sinosleep wrote...

Hoffburger wrote...

Graunt wrote...

Everytime he posts, I just imagine him yelling.  

The funny thing is, he thinks we are arguing that Vanguards aren't viable on Insanity, poor guy.

Edited, felt too mean.

That's got nothing to do with it. The problem here has been the same all along. You guys whine about something, I prove it wrong, then you whine about something else, I prove that wrong, and then when you finally run out of out things to whine about, you accuse me of cheating. Did it ever occur to you that I'm just BETTER than either of you with a vanguard? Did you not notice I'm using the +10% headshot damage headpiece on vanguard? Did you not realize that 10% of the large base damage of shotgun is going to be a better benefit than say on other weapons? Did you not notice the squad incendiary ammo? Did you not know that the katana actually does MORE damage per shot than the assault shotgun? It's over time and the clip size that are the assault shotgun's advantages. Don't try to play the boohoo I'm misunderstood card. What you are is full of it.

Haha, so you think adding 10% damage means that a higher damage weapon gets more benefit? Hahahahahaha.

[vhatever]

Graunt wrote...

Mordigan wrote...

Sinosleep, whats your take on the effectiveness of custom armor vs preorder armor?

I would imagine that the Blood Dragon armor would be the most effective armor for the Vanguard, seeing as you get a 15% damage boost for your powers, and 10% boost for shields.

And don't listen to these idiots.. 

You, me and a bunch of other guys know that the Vanguard class is extremely capable and very powerful when played correctly

Clearly you've both demonstrated some ultra skills that the rest of us can't comprehend and experience hasn't proven that the Vanguard is anything but powerful.  Killing things and almost dying yourself each time is not powerful when other classes can kill at a similar, if not faster speed with much less risk invloved.  Being a fanboy doesn't change reality.  Neither of you are unique and special snowflakes and if you really believe you're "just better" with the game, all you've managed to do is demonstrate just how god awful the class truly is on insanity then.

Actually, I think you can make an effective relatively safe to play beatdown style vanguard with a team composed of some combination of mointh, tali, and legion.  You can play the early game more conservative with reave and later game you could try mixing in other stuff, like geth shielding/dominate or more reave. Once you can throw a bunch of decoys on the battle field, it's quite safe for a vanguard that doesn't play too stupidly to freely pingpong across the battlefield in some degree of safety.

Not my pick for an optimally efficient  class, but it might be optimally fun.

Modifié par vhatever, 07 février 2010 - 07:42 .

[Graunt]

vhatever wrote...

Graunt wrote...

Mordigan wrote...

Sinosleep, whats your take on the effectiveness of custom armor vs preorder armor?

I would imagine that the Blood Dragon armor would be the most effective armor for the Vanguard, seeing as you get a 15% damage boost for your powers, and 10% boost for shields.

And don't listen to these idiots.. 

You, me and a bunch of other guys know that the Vanguard class is extremely capable and very powerful when played correctly

Clearly you've both demonstrated some ultra skills that the rest of us can't comprehend and experience hasn't proven that the Vanguard is anything but powerful.  Killing things and almost dying yourself each time is not powerful when other classes can kill at a similar, if not faster speed with much less risk invloved.  Being a fanboy doesn't change reality.  Neither of you are unique and special snowflakes and if you really believe you're "just better" with the game, all you've managed to do is demonstrate just how god awful the class truly is on insanity then.

Actually, I think you can make an effective relatively safe to play beatdown style vanguard with a team composed of some combination of mointh, tali, and legion.  You can play the early game more conservative with reave and later game you could try mixing in other stuff, like geth shielding/dominate or more reave. Once you can throw a bunch of decoys on the battle field, it's quite safe for a vanguard that doesn't play too stupidly to freely pingpong across the battlefield in some degree of safety.

Not my pick for an optimally efficient  class, but it might be optimally fun.

Who was arguing about whether or not the Vanguard can be a fun class to play?  I think it's very fun under specific conditions, but it's also extremely frustrating early on and on any area where enemies are grouped up together.  Just like how you can't use biotics outside of reave/warp on anything with defense, you can't use charge in clumped up groups unless you pick the second option for morphing which is overall inferior.  

Out of all of the classes I've played so far on Insanity, the Vanguard has it the hardest before maxing out two skills and it has absolutely zero to do with "player skill".  I can sit behind cover whittling away with attempted headshots with the hand guns with any class the same, only the Vanguard can't use the one ability that sets him apart until most of the room is already cleared.  Yes, there are specific areas in the game that allow for more charging around, but it's too bad that's still less than 50% of the entire game, probably not even anywhere near that much.  The class stops being balanced after Veteran.  

It really is silly to keep trying to argue about how strong the class is when you can use a Soldier/Infiltrator to get the same exact effect as what a charge + shotgun/rifle do but without putting yourself at a near death state.  The ONLY advantage charge has over that is moving around the map, but it's a moot point if you're going to have to sit there after each charge just to regain health when the other classes could have just as easily stormed and cover jumped to that same spot in the same amount of overall time.  Even the boring ass Adept can kill more efficiently on Insanity.  It's no fun, but it's a lot more "optimal".

Modifié par Graunt, 07 février 2010 - 08:19 .

[Mordigan]

Graunt wrote...

Clearly you've both demonstrated some ultra skills that the rest of us can't comprehend and experience hasn't proven that the Vanguard is anything but powerful.  Killing things and almost dying yourself each time is not powerful when other classes can kill at a similar, if not faster speed with much less risk invloved.  Being a fanboy doesn't change reality.  Neither of you are unique and special snowflakes and if you really believe you're "just better" with the game, all you've managed to do is demonstrate just how god awful the class truly is on insanity then

And you think thats how Sinosleep plays all the time eh? 

He was doing a speed run, so caution took a back seat... 

Also, it seems like you don't like you just don't like the Vanguard's high risk, high reward play.. 

It's not for everyone of course..  If you want your character to cower and shoot enemies at range, I can understand that.........really

[AlphaJarmel]

I'll check Vanguard when I get back but something is definitely off if you can two shot Harbinger.

[Graunt]

Mordigan wrote...
And you think thats how Sinosleep plays all the time eh? 

He was doing a speed run, so caution took a back seat... 

Also, it seems like you don't like you just don't like the Vanguard's high risk, high reward play.. 

It's not for everyone of course..  If you want your character to cower and shoot enemies at range, I can understand that.........really

Thanks for proving that you have no idea what optimal means.  Good job, post more.

[Mordigan]

AlphaJarmel wrote...

I'll check Vanguard when I get back but something is definitely off if you can two shot Harbinger.

Harbingers are easy to bring down if you shoot them in the head.  You can one shot them with a Claymore if you get a good head shot.

[vhatever]

Graunt wrote...
Who was arguing about whether or not the Vanguard can be a fun class to play?  I think it's very fun under specific conditions, but it's also extremely frustrating early on and on any area where enemies are grouped up together.  Just like how you can't use biotics outside of reave/warp on anything with defense, you can't use charge in clumped up groups unless you pick the second option for morphing which is overall inferior . . . Out of all of the classes I've played so far on Insanity, the Vanguard has it the hardest before maxing out two skills and it has absolutely zero to do with "player skill". 

Wait, I thought you were the one making all these "only at level 30" etc guidelines? Infiltrator is pretty lame for the first half of ME2, as well. So you provide a pretty compelling case that infiltrator isn't very optimal if you aee adding such criteria.

Graunt wrote...

It really is silly to keep trying to argue about how strong the class is when you can use a Soldier/Infiltrator to get the same exact effect as what a charge + shotgun/rifle do but without putting yourself at a near death state.  The ONLY advantage charge has over that is moving around the map, but it's a moot point if you're going to have to sit there after each charge just to regain health when the other classes could have just as easily stormed and cover jumped to that same spot in the same amount of overall time.  Even the boring ass Adept can kill more efficiently on Insanity.  It's no fun, but it's a lot more "optimal".

But what is the definition of optimal? Is it kill rate? Progress rate(how fast you advance through missions-- it's related but different from kill rate). Survivial rate? An average of all these? Etc. I thought that the point of the thread, at least from reading the OP, was to give a general accounting of the peak ability of all the classes, not to simply ordain one more "optimal" than the rest.

Modifié par vhatever, 07 février 2010 - 09:10 .

[Hoffburger]

Mordigan wrote...

AlphaJarmel wrote...

I'll check Vanguard when I get back but something is definitely off if you can two shot Harbinger.

Harbingers are easy to bring down if you shoot them in the head.  You can one shot them with a Claymore if you get a good head shot.

According to half the people in this thread you can't do it by cloaking and using the Widow. If you can't do it with the Widow, you definitely can't do it with the Claymore.

[Hoffburger]

vhatever wrote...

Wait, I thought you were the one making all these "only at level 30" etc guidelines? Infiltrator is pretty lame for the first half of ME2, as well. So you provide a pretty compelling case that infiltrator isn't very optimal if you aee adding such criteria.

Uh, have you even played an Infiltrator? They are one of the better classes to start off as because a lot of the enemies early on have health regen and armor. You also face off against a lot of synthetcis early on. Infiltrators have great tools for both of those situations.

[Ingahootz]

Hoffburger wrote...

vhatever wrote...

Wait, I thought you were the one making all these "only at level 30" etc guidelines? Infiltrator is pretty lame for the first half of ME2, as well. So you provide a pretty compelling case that infiltrator isn't very optimal if you aee adding such criteria.

Uh, have you even played an Infiltrator? They are one of the better classes to start off as because a lot of the enemies early on have health regen and armor. You also face off against a lot of synthetcis early on. Infiltrators have great tools for both of those situations.

Would have to agree with this. Incinerate is pretty amazing in the beginning.

[Graunt]

I think I'm just going to stop posting in this thread for at least another week, probably two.  It's become more of a borderline flame war thread than anything constructive and I don't like being a part of that.

However, I'll leave you with this, which is something I am personally going to do and I suggest anyone that wants to give any kind of relevant infomation on what works and what doesn't to try out as well...

1. Start your perfered class over on Insanity and level them from 1-28+ (30 if you imported)
2. Beat the game and note the time it took you to finish, and you can't really cheat this since you'll have to do the quests to reach the level cap anyway.  Skipping all cut scenes is fine.  Since this is about what's optimal and what's not, dying a thousand times can be chalked up to a lack of player skill or knowledge with the areas so it doesn't count.  All that matters is how fast you can potentially clear the game.
3. At the same time, keep track of your actual total play time, which includes all of the time spent redoing levels that you died on.  If that's too much of a chore for you, then at least keep track of how many times you actually died and be truthful about it, without the stupid ego trying to hide your actual performance.  At least this way anyone who has spent any good amount of time with the game would be able to guesstimate about how much total time was lost.
4.  After you've done this, do it again with another class, preferably one that doesn't play nearly the same (Solider/Infiltrator)
5. Come back with your findings on time, what build, squad make up and class gave you the most success overall.

Wait, I thought you were the one making all these "only at level 30" etc guidelines?

Wasn't me considering I count all of the levels up to the cap as part of the process and only play on regular Insanity right now.  By the time you hit the cap the game is over so having your final build doesn't really mean a whole lot except to make the last fight easier.  I might discuss Insanity plus once I actually start playing that, but right now I'm more focused on playing all of the classes on regular Insanity.

But what is the definition of optimal? Is it kill rate? Progress
rate(how fast you advance through missions-- it's related but different
from kill rate). Survivial rate? An average of all these? Etc. I
thought that the point of the thread, at least from reading the OP, was
to give a general accounting of the peak ability of all the classes,
not to simply ordain one more "optimal" than the rest.

It was, but got sidetracked into what class is more optimal than another.  The class abilities aren't so complex that you can find some all encompassing use for them that's better than anything else.  They pretty much serve one function, two at best so there's not a lot to really talk about.

Modifié par Graunt, 07 février 2010 - 10:01 .

[vhatever]

Hoffburger wrote...

vhatever wrote...

Wait, I thought you were the one making all these "only at level 30" etc guidelines? Infiltrator is pretty lame for the first half of ME2, as well. So you provide a pretty compelling case that infiltrator isn't very optimal if you aee adding such criteria.

Uh, have you even played an Infiltrator? They are one of the better classes to start off as because a lot of the enemies early on have health regen and armor. You also face off against a lot of synthetcis early on. Infiltrators have great tools for both of those situations.

 They don't have a single line to go up to increase there power exponentially. They have three different and important skill lines for them. Who cares about vorcha? LOL. Two pistol shots in the head and they die.  Warp them with miranda, lift them with jacob. They are pathetic. They don't start very powerful and they don't grow powerful very fast. At level 10 an adept is even better than an infiltrator.

[Ingahootz]

vhatever wrote...

They don't have a single line to go up to increase there power exponentially. They have three different and important skill lines for them. Who cares about vorcha? LOL. Two pistol shots in the head and they die.  Warp them with miranda, lift them with jacob. They are pathetic. They don't start very powerful and they don't grow powerful very fast. At level 10 an adept is even better than an infiltrator.

Interesting... I seem to recall you flaming me for playing an easy mode infiltrator...

[vhatever]

Infiltrator *is* easy mode, especially after the ship. Adpet hits its stride at level 10ish, but its all downhill from there. comparing adept and infiltrator at single arbitrary level is useless in comparing them from 1-30.

[sinosleep]

vhatever wrote...

Anyhway. Just loaded up my soldier and tried to see how fast I could clear some areas. Cleared the first part of the last map(ends with 2 scions and 3 explosive husks) in 2 mins 32 seconds, Didn't use any collector editon or bonus stuff or heavy weapons. It's about 4-5 habringers, 2 scions, 3 explosive husks, ~12 drones, 2-3 assassins, 2-3 guardians, and about 20-30 seconds of that time is platform swiching, so about 2 minutes killing time.

No way in hell an infiltrator or vanguard is matching that kill time.

I use miranda and legion.

Is there any possible way we can get some video? I believe that's the best way to get this settled. Video for video. Cause I find it pretty goddamned hilarious that people don't believe me WHILE I'M PROVIDING VIDEO EVIDENCE, but they're going to believe you just cause you type it.

Graunt wrote...

Clearly you've both demonstrated some ultra skills that the rest of us can't comprehend and experience hasn't proven that the Vanguard is anything but powerful.  Killing things and almost dying yourself each time is not powerful when other classes can kill at a similar, if not faster speed with much less risk invloved.  Being a fanboy doesn't change reality.  Neither of you are unique and special snowflakes and if you really believe you're "just better" with the game, all you've managed to do is demonstrate just how god awful the class truly is on insanity then.

Which is why you accused me of cheating right? Which is why you specifically mentioned how you couldn't do what I do in my vids right? You are such a hypocritical piece of trash it's not even funny. I already hung you with your own words once but since you just can't help yourself here we go again....

Graunt wrote...

I don't have the Claymore yet and it takes 2-3 head shots on an unprotected enemy to kill them with a shotgun, so I normally just use the damn SMG because it stunlocks them in between punches.  With protection the non "elite" weapons don't do jack with this class up close.



Oh, btw I just reread your post.  There's no way in hell you're using the katana at level 11 and doing that much damage, there's absolutely no way.  I just watched it again two times and you can't knock a barrier down to 1/2 with just a charge.  Something fishy is going on.

Wow, would you look at that. I'm not doing anything special, but since your pathetic ass can't match it you and your cheerleader accuse me of cheating. How much more do you need me to embarass you in this thread? I mean seriously, you should probably think about what you are typing before you type it so I can't keep quoting you and making you look like a fool.

Modifié par sinosleep, 07 février 2010 - 10:26 .

[Ingahootz]

vhatever wrote...

Infiltrator *is* easy mode, especially after the ship. Adpet hits its stride at level 10ish, but its all downhill from there. comparing adept and infiltrator at single arbitrary level is useless in comparing them from 1-30.

Honestly I still found Infiltrator easier from 1-10 than Adept was. Sniper rifle and Incinerate are both incredibly useful. Only thing Adept really had at that point was Warp spam. Over all damage felt a lot lower. It wasn't until later that I felt Adept got powerful (when I maxed out both Singularity and Warp).

Capped Singularity is absolutely amazing, regardless of whether or not NPCs have defenses.

Not saying Adept is great. Infiltrator is superior from 1-30 all the way IMO.

[Hoffburger]

Ingahootz wrote...

vhatever wrote...

They don't have a single line to go up to increase there power exponentially. They have three different and important skill lines for them. Who cares about vorcha? LOL. Two pistol shots in the head and they die.  Warp them with miranda, lift them with jacob. They are pathetic. They don't start very powerful and they don't grow powerful very fast. At level 10 an adept is even better than an infiltrator.

Interesting... I seem to recall you flaming me for playing an easy mode infiltrator...

It's ok, he's a delusional 13 year old who thinks he can argue by spewing random drivel and hoping it forms into a coherent thought.

[vhatever]

LOL. Only warp spam. Warp spam is pretty god damn uber at level 5.

[Ingahootz]

Hoffburger wrote...

It's ok, he's a delusional 13 year old who thinks he can argue by spewing random drivel and hoping it forms into a coherent thought.

I just don't get the whole Infiltrator being weak early on thing. If you go Incinerate right from the start you can clear the early areas absurdly fast (almost everything is armor/hp). You don't need cloak right away. If you get cloak for defensive reasons you're doing something incredibly wrong. I don't think I ever really HAD to use cloak defensively.

[Ingahootz]

vhatever wrote...

LOL. Only warp spam. Warp spam is pretty god damn uber at level 5.

Yes it is uber at level 5. But so is Incinerate and the sniper rifle.

[vhatever]

Hoffburger wrote...

Ingahootz wrote...

vhatever wrote...

They don't have a single line to go up to increase there power exponentially. They have three different and important skill lines for them. Who cares about vorcha? LOL. Two pistol shots in the head and they die.  Warp them with miranda, lift them with jacob. They are pathetic. They don't start very powerful and they don't grow powerful very fast. At level 10 an adept is even better than an infiltrator.

Interesting... I seem to recall you flaming me for playing an easy mode infiltrator...

It's ok, he's a delusional 13 year old who thinks he can argue by spewing random drivel and hoping it forms into a coherent thought.

That is pretty funny, coming from  the guy who can't count past 1. Less than 2 shots per second from the viper? 1 shot harbinger kill on insanity? What a tool.