532 réponses à ce sujet

[vhatever]

Ingahootz wrote...

vhatever wrote...

LOL. Only warp spam. Warp spam is pretty god damn uber at level 5.

Yes it is uber at level 5. But so is Incinerate and the sniper rifle.

If you go up the incinerate line first, you aren't going to be oneshot killing hardly anything with the rifle. I find the pistol more effective than the rifle for most of the newbie levels as an infiltrator.

[Ingahootz]

vhatever wrote...

Ingahootz wrote...

vhatever wrote...

LOL. Only warp spam. Warp spam is pretty god damn uber at level 5.

Yes it is uber at level 5. But so is Incinerate and the sniper rifle.

If you go up the incinerate line first, you aren't going to be oneshot killing hardly anything with the rifle. I find the pistol more effective than the rifle for most of the newbie levels as an infiltrator.

Incinerate -> Head Shot with sniper. Can do this from very far away and it's incredibly fast (assuming you are quick at aiming with a sniper rifle). You don't even have to prep to shoot after you launch an incinerate, you can have the scope up and launch incinerate at the same time.

Besides you don't need speed head shot kills until later. Around the time you get the Widow is when you start caring about 1 shots.

[vhatever]

I'd rather cloak in close, get goos positionioning, and kill somene with head shots. It's simply faster. Just is.



You have a strange propensity in thinking the sniper rifle is the answer for everything. Incinerate + sniper is a major waste of damage potential. But whatever.

[Ingahootz]

vhatever wrote...

I'd rather cloak in close, get goos positionioning, and kill somene with head shots. It's simply faster. Just is.

You have a strange propensity in thinking the sniper rifle is the answer for everything. Incinerate + sniper is a major waste of damage potential. But whatever.

I don't think "wasting damage potential" is an issue. This isn't a matter of, "There's 5000 hp in the room make every point of damage count." It's more or less, kill things as quickly as possible and pick up their thermal clips. I couldn't care less whether the Widow did 368 damage of 1 million against mobs with 200 HP. As long as it took them out in 1 shot.

I don't really agree with the whole cloak to get in close. I could probably kill 2 mobs by the time you cloaked and got good positioning (assuming you mean head shots with the pistol, in which case you need to do some moving initially).

There's nothing wrong with over killing things in this game, especially if it nets a faster kill rate. I never really had problem with ammo.

[vhatever]

Dude, I tire of dealing with your perma-noobness. I can kill 2 vorcha in 3 seconds with a pistol. The end of that debate, huh?



You talk about raw DPS, but it seems you are ignorant of the fact the pitols have higher raw DPS than the sniper rifle.



You are some AWP kiddie from counter strike or something with a fetish for sniper rifles, just face it. you don't wear it well.

[Ingahootz]

vhatever wrote...

Dude, I tire of dealing with your perma-noobness. I can kill 2 vorcha in 3 seconds with a pistol. The end of that debate, huh?

You talk about raw DPS, but it seems you are ignorant of the fact the pitols have higher raw DPS than the sniper rifle.

You are some AWP kiddie from counter strike or something with a fetish for sniper rifles, just face it. you don't wear it well.

Alright, put your money where your mouth is. Make a video.

Edit: I know that at the start of the game the pistol has more raw DPS. You'd have to duck for cover a lot more using the pistol unless you're solely relying on cloak (in which case your kill rate would drop).

Modifié par Ingahootz, 07 février 2010 - 11:11 .

[MANoob]

Infiltrator definetely isn't super cool early on. And spamming incinerate isn't an incredibly fast way to kill things either (unless it's area incinerate vs groups). Tbh after finishing both infiltrator and engineer playthroughs I'd say that engy > infiltrator for the first half of the game and they are roughly equal afterwards. And engy gets -25% research cost that likely will speed up the game more than any combat abilities .



Anyway I find this whole 'who kills faster' thing pretty stupid. Who cares? According to this logic zerg are the only good race in sc, because they can, well, OMGZERGRUSH you. However this is BS.

[Ingahootz]

MANoob wrote...

Infiltrator definetely isn't super cool early on. And spamming incinerate isn't an incredibly fast way to kill things either (unless it's area incinerate vs groups). Tbh after finishing both infiltrator and engineer playthroughs I'd say that engy > infiltrator for the first half of the game and they are roughly equal afterwards. And engy gets -25% research cost that likely will speed up the game more than any combat abilities .

Anyway I find this whole 'who kills faster' thing pretty stupid. Who cares? According to this logic zerg are the only good race in sc, because they can, well, OMGZERGRUSH you. However this is BS.

That zerg analogy is terrible simply because a "OMGZERGRUSH" doesn't guarantee that you kill the other player. At high levels of play a zerg rush won't win the match. Some times on some maps against some players, rushing can do a lot more damage to yourself than the other player.

You can't really compare the two.

Kill rate is a perfectly valid discussion. If you can kill significantly faster with one class than another, that one class is more than likely going to be easier (unless you're getting yourself killed in the process in which case you'll have more reloads).

I haven't tried Engineer yet so I can't really comment on that.

My original point was that Infiltrator is not weaker than Adept from levels 1-10. After playing both I'd have to say that Infiltrator is superior straight from level 1-30. The gap is much smaller at 1-10 though. Vhatever is arguing that sniper rifles aren't the way to go, in some cases I agree with him 100%. In a lot of cases though he's wrong. He's not even bringing up enemies on ledges (which happens quite a bit) or fire fights that start at long range. He's immediately assuming that he is starting at mid range with a pistol and cloak.

In most encounters sniper clearing is faster. In some encounters it's not (like fighting against Husk swarms for example).

[MANoob]

Ingahootz wrote...

Kill rate is a perfectly valid discussion. If you can kill significantly faster with one class than another, that one class is more than likely going to be easier (unless you're getting yourself killed in the process in which case you'll have more reloads).

Let's assume that there is a comletely invulnerable class that has only melee attack and no weapons (has 100% resistance to any damage no matter what). Would it be easy to play? Yes. Would it kill things fast? No. So speed != difficulty.

[Ingahootz]

MANoob wrote...

Ingahootz wrote...

Kill rate is a perfectly valid discussion. If you can kill significantly faster with one class than another, that one class is more than likely going to be easier (unless you're getting yourself killed in the process in which case you'll have more reloads).

Let's assume that there is a comletely invulnerable class that has only melee attack and no weapons (has 100% resistance to any damage no matter what). Would it be easy to play? Yes. Would it kill things fast? No. So speed != difficulty.

That is true but we have to be a little realistic here. There's no class that's invulernable on Insanity. You can't tell me based upon your play experience that clearing a room faster is generally better than going for defensive tools. Why would you care about picking up abilities like Barrier on the Infiltrator class when you can pick up something like AP ammo and mow down Krogan before they barely pop their heads around a corner.

I digress though, speed is not the ONLY factor that makes a class optimum but it certainly has merit discussing it. In light of the Adept vs Infiltrator discussion from level 1-10, what really sets the two classes apart aside from kill speed? Infiltrator's cloak for survivability. Can you honestly say you actually NEED cloak defensively early game? I've never been pressured enough to need it.

So what it really boils down to is, who can kill faster. Adept or Infiltrator. Most of the Adept's tools are useless against NPCs unless you take down their defenses. Adept relies on Warp and Singularity through out most of its play through. If someone could show me an alternate way to play the Adept (making great use of Pull) I'd love to see it (not being sarcastic here).

If it's a case of Adept vs Infiltrator it's going to be Warp vs Incinerate early game. Or in Vhatever's case, cloak + pistol since he believes it's faster than going for Incinerate. Now you have to look at other factors. Adept sucks at long range fights at the start of the game. Sniper rifle is king for clearing ledges faster. I'd really have to say that Infiltrator is still faster at clearing than Adept simply because it has an attack that can take out armor plus an extra tool (the sniper rifle). The more tools a class has, the better it is.

[vhatever]

Again, there is a difference ebtween your ability to progress through a quest and the raw ability of your character to kill things. I think the adept is comparable and ends up superior to infiltrator at level for raw ability to kill things, but not neccassiraly it's ability to progress. I don't think you are a very good gamer or FPS player. You mai fancy yourself as such, but I doubt you are.



BTW, I can complete mordin's mission in less than 12 minutes from beginning to end on insanity only using the pistol on my infiltrator. Maybe even less than 10 if i'm really motivated. That's cause i'm great gamer and FPS player. Just simple facts.

[Ingahootz]

vhatever wrote...

Again, there is a difference ebtween your ability to progress through a quest and the raw ability of your character to kill things. I think the adept is comparable and ends up superior to infiltrator at level for raw ability to kill things, but not neccassiraly it's ability to progress. I don't think you are a very good gamer or FPS player. You mai fancy yourself as such, but I doubt you are.

BTW, I can complete mordin's mission in less than 12 minutes from beginning to end on insanity only using the pistol on my infiltrator. Maybe even less than 10 if i'm really motivated. That's cause i'm great gamer and FPS player. Just simple facts.

Again with more insults. I asked for a video, would love to see it.

If you want to keep going with the insult route though I would like to remind you that the Harbinger never killed me on Insanity. Just thought I'd toss that up there (I seem to recall a certain whine post from you concerning the Harbinger).

Modifié par Ingahootz, 07 février 2010 - 11:36 .

[MANoob]

Ingahootz wrote...
That is true but we have to be a little realistic here. There's no class that's invulernable on Insanity. You can't tell me based upon your play experience that clearing a room faster is generally better than going for defensive tools. Why would you care about picking up abilities like Barrier on the Infiltrator class when you can pick up something like AP ammo and mow down Krogan before they barely pop their heads around a corner.

There's no class that's invulernable on Insanity, but all classes have different survivability. Barrier is bad for an infiltrator simply because you allready have cloak as an 'of sh*t' button. Still it's a solid choice for some other classes.

I digress though, speed is not the ONLY factor that makes a class optimum but it certainly has merit discussing it. In light of the Adept vs Infiltrator discussion from level 1-10, what really sets the two classes apart aside from kill speed?

I really didn't try to interfere in that discussion, I haven't played the Adept enough to say anything.

 Infiltrator's cloak for survivability. Can you honestly say you actually NEED cloak defensively early game? I've never been pressured enough to need it.

Well, sometimes you need it for repositioning. Keep in mind that I play Insanity without any exp bonuses. Also you sometimes need some kind of 'of sh*t' button if you're flanked by a melee creature.

[Ingahootz]

MANoob wrote...

Ingahootz wrote...
That is true but we have to be a little realistic here. There's no class that's invulernable on Insanity. You can't tell me based upon your play experience that clearing a room faster is generally better than going for defensive tools. Why would you care about picking up abilities like Barrier on the Infiltrator class when you can pick up something like AP ammo and mow down Krogan before they barely pop their heads around a corner.

There's no class that's invulernable on Insanity, but all classes have different survivability. Barrier is bad for an infiltrator simply because you allready have cloak as an 'of sh*t' button. Still it's a solid choice for some other classes.

I digress though, speed is not the ONLY factor that makes a class optimum but it certainly has merit discussing it. In light of the Adept vs Infiltrator discussion from level 1-10, what really sets the two classes apart aside from kill speed?

I really didn't try to interfere in that discussion, I haven't played the Adept enough to say anything.

 Infiltrator's cloak for survivability. Can you honestly say you actually NEED cloak defensively early game? I've never been pressured enough to need it.

Well, sometimes you need it for repositioning. Keep in mind that I play Insanity without any exp bonuses. Also you sometimes need some kind of 'of sh*t' button if you're flanked by a melee creature.

Alright I'll have to agree with you on those points then. However, I still fail to see why discussing kill rate between two classes is bad. I know there's a lot of discussion in this thread about kill rates, but I think the best way to compare Adept vs Infiltrator between levels 1-10 is with kill rates simply because Adept's neutered on Insanity. However, if Adept was as powerful on Insanity as it is on Normal, I'd go as far to argue that it would hands down be the best class in the game.

Modifié par Ingahootz, 07 février 2010 - 11:43 .

[MANoob]

Ingahootz wrote...

Alright I'll have to agree with you on those points then. However, I still fail to see why discussing kill rate between two classes is bad. I know there's a lot of discussion in this thread about kill rates, but I think the best way to compare Adept vs Infiltrator between levels 1-10 is with kill rates simply because Adept's neutered on Insanity. However, if Adept was as powerful on Insanity as it is on Normal, I'd go as far to argue that it would hands down be the best class in the game.

No hard feelings, I simply got tired of this 'class X > class Y because it can kill things in 0.0001 seconds while class Y does it in 0.0002' thing. Pehaps I need to take a break.

Btw, this thread is called 'Optimality: Focused class Discussion' but it doesn't contain any guides for classes, only endless flame wars. Typical .

Modifié par MANoob, 07 février 2010 - 11:55 .

[Ingahootz]

MANoob wrote...

No hard feelings, I simply got tired of this 'class X > class Y because it can kill things in 0.0001 seconds while class Y does it in 0.0002' thing. Pehaps I need to take a break.

Btw, this thread is called 'Optimality: Focused class Discussion' but it doesn't contain any guides for classes, only endless flame wars. Typical .

This is the internet, what do you expect? People can remain anonymous telling others that they're terrible without having to offer any proof or risk getting punched in the face.

[WillieStyle]

Ingahootz is right. Kill rate is a very important part of class effectiveness. Being able to kill enemies fast makes the game easier. Granted survivability also makes the game easier but it's not as though the Infiltrator has particularly bad survivability.



P.S.

Could someone explain to me how pistols have higher raw dps than sniper rifles? Is it because of the 1.5 sec reload time?

The way I see it, it takes 4.3 shots from the Hand Cannon to do As much damage as the Widow. On Insanity I find that I can't stay out of cover for more than 4 shots at a time. Once under cover, you might as well reload so the 1.5 sec reload time doesn't really hurt Snipers that much.

Also, Sniper Rifle upgrades are superior to Heavy Pistol upgrades.

+50% headshot damage >> chance to do double damage unless that chance is close to 50%.



P.S.

vhatever, I get the sense that you're kinda young. It'd be nice if you learned to debate people without tossing around petty insults.

[Ingahootz]

Willie... I think vhatever was talking about level 1-10 sniper rifles. In which case you won't have the Widow or very many upgrades for it. I could be wrong but I believe he's right about the dps rate in that regard.

Regardless I still don't believe that a pistol can out damage an incinerate + sniper shot combo. Even pistol + incinerate. It's basically 2 attacks -> dead with the sniper rifle (incinerate + sniper shot) then taking aim instantly at the next target before the NPC hits the ground, then killing the next one.

Modifié par Ingahootz, 08 février 2010 - 12:00 .

[WillieStyle]

MANoob wrote...

Btw, this thread is called 'Optimality: Focused class Discussion' but it doesn't contain any guides for classes, only endless flame wars. Typical .

Meh. Early on in the thread, there were pointers on how to play an Infiltrator.  Debates about going cloak + sniper rifle early on or relying on  Heavy Incenerate early to save ammo.  It didn't have to degenerate into a flame war.

Modifié par WillieStyle, 08 février 2010 - 12:03 .

[Ingahootz]

WillieStyle wrote...

MANoob wrote...

Btw, this thread is called 'Optimality: Focused class Discussion' but it doesn't contain any guides for classes, only endless flame wars. Typical .

Meh. Early on in the thread, there were pointer on how to play an Infiltrator.  Debates about going cloak + sniper rifle early on or relying or going for Heavy Incenerate early to save ammo.  It didn't have to degenerate into a flame war.

No it didn't, and I've tried to avoid having flame wars with Vhatever to the best of my ability but the guy keeps coming back asking for it telling everyone that posts here how terrible they are and how great he is.

He's either a very persistent troll or he's very young (I tend to agree with you on the young part). I'd have to say he's probably in the 13-16 range.

Modifié par Ingahootz, 08 février 2010 - 12:02 .

[WillieStyle]

Ingahootz wrote...

Willie... I think vhatever was talking about level 1-10 sniper rifles. In which case you won't have the Widow or very many upgrades for it. I could be wrong but I believe he's right about the dps rate in that regard.

Regardless I still don't believe that a pistol can out damage an incinerate + sniper shot combo. Even pistol + incinerate. It's basically 2 attacks -> dead with the sniper rifle (incinerate + sniper shot) then taking aim instantly at the next target before the NPC hits the ground, then killing the next one.

True, plus we haven't even factored in the benefits of Tactical Cloak.  TC synergizes better with Sniper Rifles than any other weapon (except perhaps shotguns).

Also, increased sniper rifle aim means you can engage the enemy from further away meaning that Krogan is more likely to die before he gets to you and those Vorcha are less likely to flank you before you blow their heads off.

Modifié par WillieStyle, 08 février 2010 - 12:03 .

[Ingahootz]

Yeah those are the things I think about when I consider killing speed. A lot of fights start far away, and sniper rifle rocks long ranged fights.

[vhatever]

It doesn't matter if a fight starts "from a long way away". All that matters is where you need to go after you have successfully navigated it. As an example, my soldier usually rushes like crazy. And when the bullets stop falling, he's already at the spot he needs to be to keep moving on, while somone who stayed back as sniper is a good 10 seconds movement away from where he needs to be. That's why there is a difference between progression and kill rate. But such subtle nuances are often lost on intellectual midgets, and they are reduced to OMGZORS WIDOW SHOOTS DUH BULLETS GUD.

[WillieStyle]

-Rush in and kill enemies from close range

or

-Kill enemies from long range then rush in after.



This mental midget fails to see how one is faster than the other.

[vhatever]

WillieStyle wrote...

-Rush in and kill enemies from close range
or
-Kill enemies from long range then rush in after.

This mental midget fails to see how one is faster than the other.

If we have the same kill rate, and I rushed, I saved 5-15 seconds walk time. Think on it. You'll get it. Might take you a couple nights contemplation, however.