532 réponses à ce sujet

[lockerlocke]

There's a lot of hate in this thread, lol.

I've been going through the game as a Vanguard on Insanity (beat it the first time as an engineer on Insanity, and tried the adept before giving up because it was so slow and dull), and that sinosleep guy's videos seem relatively accurate... on Horizon, which is the video I saw him use, I was doing the same thing, i.e. charging around and shotgunning people. With the +50% damage against shields, even the Katana will rip out barrier and shields in one shot so long as you're in melee range, no headshot needed.

But Vanguards are nowhere near as efficient as soldiers or infiltrators, though. Horizon is an isolated example since a lot of the grunts stand apart in that particular scene, and there are no heavies/pyros to worry about very much. While fun and viable, when discussing Optimality, vanguards have no place, especially concerning Insanity because their optimal functionality--that is, charging around like a biotic pinball with a shotgun--only works in specific situations.  Whereas Infiltrators remain powerful through all situations, against every type of enemy, and the same goes for soldiers. 

Eh, who knows. I do remember that getting through the C.Ship required me to rely on my pistol hell a lot more than my shotgun.  Saying that Vanguards are 'every bit as powerful' as the other classes on the hardest difficulty is pretty dishonest, though. 

Modifié par lockerlocke, 08 février 2010 - 10:06 .

[sinosleep]

I'm not saying you can charge through every portion of the game, what I'm saying is that it's not a few isolated instances where vanguards can charge around all over the place, it's actually the majority of the game, Collector Ship included. About the only part of that mission you can't charge a will during is the bubble part. Though honestly, charge isn't really necessary for large parts of that mission just cause of the the fact that there are cliffs on both sides of practically every where you go. Why charge around and kill things one at at a time when a mass reave from Samara and a heavy shockwave will send entire groups of 3 and 4 at time to their deaths in one go?

[Mordigan]

MANoob wrote...

There is a huge diferense between enemy total health/armor/barrirer on NG+ and Insanity. I suppose its the same for Insanity and lower difficulties. Most players who actually tested it (including myself) say that its impossible to 1 shot harbinger on insanity, its not even close to 1 shot. Arguably its possible to 2 shot him. I tend to believe this until proven otherwise.

You're probably right..  But, I would say that if you're using the sniper rifle to one shot the Harbinger, it may yield inferior results compared to the Claymore, because sniper rifles in general are weak against shields and barriers.

One of the shotgun upgrades improves shield penetration by 50%, which combined with the shotgun's already strong performance against shield and barriers, allows you to basically rip through shields as if they were paper so that a great deal of damage is done on the first shot.

Modifié par Mordigan, 08 février 2010 - 01:24 .

[Mordigan]

lockerlocke wrote...

While fun and viable, when discussing Optimality, vanguards have no place, especially concerning Insanity because their optimal functionality--that is, charging around like a biotic pinball with a shotgun--only works in specific situations.

I'm surprised anyone could come to this conclusion after watching the videos that sinosleep uploaded..

And although I haven't beaten the game yet, I never had the impression that charge was a "specific situation" ability..  Actually, it's that kind of mentality why so many people have issues with the Vanguard on higher difficulties I'm sure.

People use charge too cautiously, when they should be using it liberally. 

[vhatever]

Haha. I think Mord needs to play on insanity before offfering insight..



Sino, how did you even get Samara with reave on the collector ship anyway? That mission never opens up for me until after that's cleared. Not like AoE reave is really anything to write home about on insanity. And an AoE reave won't even take down a drones barrier on insanity. They usually spawn in "2 drone 1 ass or/and 1 guardian" groups on the ship

[Malanthor]

whatever please go away. Your presence is not wanted here. You are just messing up a possibly nice thread with your retarded and annoying posts. Now this might be seen as an uneccesary post too, but i felt it needed to be said. GO AWAY.

[Ingahootz]

vhatever wrote...

You and tetra have a lot in common. Idiots who pretend to know far more than they do, often times getting in way over their diminutive heads, resolving to red herrings and non sequitur  as argument after argument their position gets destroyed. Then when made a complete fool, they pretend like it didn't happen and start all over again.

It's more like you're presented with counter arguments and avoid them by calling other people idiots. I still stand by my point, sniper rifle will be faster in most cases over the pistol. Your kill rate will not be the same because a sniper rifle will begin killing before you. A sniper rifle will still be killing while you take "position" over and over. A sniper rifle will have everything dead and begin moving to the end while you're still killing. In a lot of cases you MIGHT end up at the end at the same time. You say that your pistol skills + rushing are "ZOMG UBER!" Well my sniper rifle skills are "ZOMG UBER!" In case you didn't know, you can snipe targets that are under cover.

Have you ever cleared an entire collector platform the second before it landed with the pistol? No? I've done it with the Widow. It's absolutely amazing seeing it cleared and another one landing without the collectors getting to fire a single shot back at you. Of course, you'd know all about this since you're such a godly player right?

[Ingahootz]

MANoob wrote...

Mordigan wrote...
Still, for enemies like the Harbinger, I don't think there is any difference between the levels. 

There is a huge diferense between enemy total health/armor/barrirer on NG+ and Insanity. I suppose its the same for Insanity and lower difficulties. Most players who actually tested it (including myself) say that its impossible to 1 shot harbinger on insanity, its not even close to 1 shot. Arguably its possible to 2 shot him. I tend to believe this until proven otherwise.

I really don't think a 1 shot on Harbinger is possible. Might be wrong but it's always be 2 with complete damage gear, cloak, and Miranda. I might be missing something that would make this possible, but I doubt it. Usually first shot takes him to 3/4 armor then the last finishes him off. Assuming both shots are head shots of course.

[MGIII]

lockerlocke wrote...

There's a lot of hate in this thread, lol.

I've been going through the game as a Vanguard on Insanity (beat it the first time as an engineer on Insanity, and tried the adept before giving up because it was so slow and dull), and that sinosleep guy's videos seem relatively accurate... on Horizon, which is the video I saw him use, I was doing the same thing, i.e. charging around and shotgunning people. With the +50% damage against shields, even the Katana will rip out barrier and shields in one shot so long as you're in melee range, no headshot needed.

But Vanguards are nowhere near as efficient as soldiers or infiltrators, though. Horizon is an isolated example since a lot of the grunts stand apart in that particular scene, and there are no heavies/pyros to worry about very much. While fun and viable, when discussing Optimality, vanguards have no place, especially concerning Insanity because their optimal functionality--that is, charging around like a biotic pinball with a shotgun--only works in specific situations.  Whereas Infiltrators remain powerful through all situations, against every type of enemy, and the same goes for soldiers. 

Eh, who knows. I do remember that getting through the C.Ship required me to rely on my pistol hell a lot more than my shotgun.  Saying that Vanguards are 'every bit as powerful' as the other classes on the hardest difficulty is pretty dishonest, though. 

Give a Vanguard a sniper rifle and they're as potent as any Soldier or Infiltrator. The difference between the Viper and Widow is not as huge a gap as many have been advocating early on. Not to mention having the most useful ammo type and ability to train in most weapons, before you even get into their ability to **** **** up up close and personal better than any class in the game (lol @ Shotty Soldier).

[Ingahootz]

There's something that I've been wondering for a while now that involves high powered weapons.



Going to use the Harbinger as an example.



He has barriers + armor.



If you head shot him with the Widow and take out his barrier, is the damage modifier strictly based upon sniper damage vs his barrier. Or does some of the damage bonus carry over to the sniper rifle vs armor modifier? I've been under the impression that all damage is calculated based upon the first damage modifier the attack encounters, and never the second.

[MGIII]

Ingahootz wrote...

There's something that I've been wondering for a while now that involves high powered weapons.

Going to use the Harbinger as an example.

He has barriers + armor.

If you head shot him with the Widow and take out his barrier, is the damage modifier strictly based upon sniper damage vs his barrier. Or does some of the damage bonus carry over to the sniper rifle vs armor modifier? I've been under the impression that all damage is calculated based upon the first damage modifier the attack encounters, and never the second.

I'd wager it's based on the armor type on the enemy at the time of shot impact. Only a Bioware dev or a thorough PC version owner could verify that.

[WillieStyle]

MGIII wrote...

Give a Vanguard a sniper rifle and they're as potent as any Soldier or Infiltrator.

I don't understand this comment.  Infiltrators get Tactical Cloak that boosts damage for a single shot by upto 70%. Soldiers get Adernaline Rush that boosts damage by an as yet undetermined amount.  How can a Vanguard be just as effective as a Soldier or Infiltrator with a sniper rifle?

The difference between the Viper and Widow is not as huge a gap as many have been advocating early on.

The Widow does 4.5 times more damage per shot than the Viper.  For Infiltrators, it synergizes very well with Tactical Cloak.  Some Soldiers may find the Viper better as it allows you to hit multiple targets within a single Adrenaline Rush without reloading.  But if you attack from cover (which all snipers pretty much do) the Widow is significantly more dps than the Viper.  This seems to be the consensus on these forums.  What about this is wrong?

Not to mention having the most useful ammo type and ability to train in most weapons, before you even get into their ability to **** **** up up close and personal better than any class in the game (lol @ Shotty Soldier).

The most useful ammo type? Which one is that? In anycase, Soldiers get every ammo type Vanguards do so I don't see how that's an advantage for the Vanguard.
Also, how is the "ability to train in most weapons" and advantage of the Vanguard relative to Infiltrators and Soldiers since the Infiltrator can train in just as many weapons and the Soldier can train more weapons.

Modifié par WillieStyle, 08 février 2010 - 04:36 .

[MGIII]

WillieStyle wrote...

I don't understand this comment.  Infiltrators get Tactical Cloak that boosts damage for a single shot by upto 70%. Soldiers get Adernaline Rush that boosts damage by an as yet undetermined amount.  How can a Vanguard be just as effective as a Soldier or Infiltrator with a sniper rifle?

The TC boosts push the damages far beyond what is needed to one-shot regular enemies--making it redundant unless you want to two-shot Harbinger.

The Widow does 4.5 times more damage per shot than the Viper.  For Infiltrators, it synergizes very well with Tactical Cloak.  Some Soldiers may find the Viper better as it allows you to hit multiple targets within a single Adrenaline Rush without reloading.  But if you attack from cover (which all snipers pretty much do) the Widow is significantly more dps than the Viper.  This seems to be the consensus on these forums.  What about this is wrong?

And the Viper can shoot four bullets by the time the Widow shoots one, so it roughly evens out. Which means that per "clip", the Viper equates to the Widow having three shots instead of one. Given the numbers, including clip size and RoF, the Widow is only better because it only requires you to focus for one shot instead of twelve.

The most useful ammo type? Which one is that? In anycase, Soldiers get every ammo type Vanguards do so I don't see how that's an advantage for the Vanguard.
Also, how is the "ability to train in most weapons" and advantage of the Vanguard relative to Infiltrators and Soldiers since the Infiltrator can train in just as many weapons and the Soldier can train more weapons.

I wasn't saying it was an advantage for a Vanguard, I was just saying they're well equipped enough (the best ammo is incend. ammo, by the way).

[WillieStyle]

MGIII wrote...
The TC boosts push the damages far beyond what is needed to one-shot regular enemies--making it redundant unless you want to two-shot Harbinger.

In other words, it isn't redundant at all. After all, there are several enemies in game that can't be 1 shot wihout Tactical Cloak: Harbinger, Scions, Krogen, Heavy Mechs, Geth Prime, Geth Collussi, Gunships etc.
Given the damage boosts from Tactical Cloak and Adrenaline Rush, how is a Vanguard jus as effective with sniper rifles as a Soldier or Infiltrator?

And the Viper can shoot four bullets by the time the Widow shoots one, so it roughly evens out. Which means that per "clip", the Viper equates to the Widow having three shots instead of one. Given the numbers, including clip size and RoF, the Widow is only better because it only requires you to focus for one shot instead of twelve.

If you're a Soldier with Adrenaline Rush, then you can possibly get off 4-5 shots without taking cover during a single Adrenaline Rush.  In that case, yes the Viper and Widow are equal.  If you're an Infiltrator with Tactical Cloak, they aren't really close.

I wasn't saying it was an advantage for a Vanguard, I was just saying they're well equipped enough (the best ammo is incend. ammo, by the way).

Oh, I thought the argument was that Vanguards were as effective as Soldiers or Infiltrators.  If you're just arguing that Vanguards are "good enough" then I agree. Several people here seem to have fun with them.

Could you explain why you think Incend. Ammo is the best ammo type?

[MANoob]

MGIII wrote...
The TC boosts push the damages far beyond what is needed to one-shot regular enemies--making it redundant unless you want to two-shot Harbinger.

Frankly the difference is not that big lategame, because bonuses are additive. So if you have tungsten ammo and a fully upgraded weapou you deal 220% damage to armor (not counting APupgrades, because not all weapons get it, some get shield penetretion). With assasination cloack you'll have 290% damage, not 374%. In other words, cloack damage bonus is static and is allways equaal to 70% of your base damage (smth like 250 bonus damage for widow). Not sure about how headshots work though, pehaps damage is multiplied in this case.

WillieStyle wrote...
In other words, it isn't redundant at
all. After all, there are several enemies in game that can't be 1 shot
wihout Tactical Cloak: Harbinger, Scions, Krogen, Heavy Mechs, Geth
Prime, Geth Collussi, Gunships etc.

They can't be 1 shot with cloack either.

Modifié par MANoob, 08 février 2010 - 06:00 .

[MGIII]

WillieStyle wrote...

In other words, it isn't redundant at all. After all, there are several enemies in game that can't be 1 shot wihout Tactical Cloak: Harbinger, Scions, Krogen, Heavy Mechs, Geth Prime, Geth Collussi, Gunships etc.
Given the damage boosts from Tactical Cloak and Adrenaline Rush, how is a Vanguard jus as effective with sniper rifles as a Soldier or Infiltrator?

If we're talking purely shooting an SR, then no, they're not, but combined with all the other abilities that a Vanguard has to offer, they can be just as effective as a Soldier or Infiltrator. The difference in skill and damage with an SR between an S/I and Vanguard is usually negligible.

Oh, I thought the argument was that Vanguards were as effective as Soldiers or Infiltrators.  If you're just arguing that Vanguards are "good enough" then I agree. Several people here seem to have fun with them.

Could you explain why you think Incend. Ammo is the best ammo type?

I am arguing as much, and the boons that S/Is have are inconsequential. Extra topping, so to speak. That's the point with me saying Vanguards are "good enough".

Damaging against shields, extra damage to health, causes enemies to panic and mitigates vorcha and krogan healings factors. It's, IIRC, the only ammo with degen.

Modifié par MGIII, 08 février 2010 - 06:07 .

[Mordigan]

vhatever wrote...

Haha. I think Mord needs to play on insanity before offfering insight..

I just tried insanity, and wow, it made for quite the shocker

One shotting a harbinger is definitely not possible on insanity. 

Still, I learned quickly to adapt to the change in difficulty after getting my ass kicked a few times...

One adaptation, was "snipe charging."  The weakest enemies can still be one shotted with the Claymore, so charging and killing them then returning to cover can be done very quickly without much fear of return fire due to the split second slow down you get with heavy charge.

By selectively killing the weak enemies and stealing their position, you can move all over the field of battle and set up for more attacks.

Elite enemies usually took about 2 shots plus a few melee strikes to finish them.  If I had warp ammo though, it would have been easier.

All in all, I'd still say the Vanguard rocked the house on insanity....once I learned how to adapt my play style to the increased difficulty.

[vhatever]

Damaging to shields??? You mean armor?

[WillieStyle]

MANoob wrote...

WillieStyle wrote...
In other words, it isn't redundant at
all. After all, there are several enemies in game that can't be 1 shot
wihout Tactical Cloak: Harbinger, Scions, Krogen, Heavy Mechs, Geth
Prime, Geth Collussi, Gunships etc.

They can't be 1 shot with cloack either.

That isn't really relevant.  As long as
# of shots required to kill enemy with cloak < # of shots required to kill enemy without cloak, 
cloak isn't redundant.  Which is all I was arguing.

[WillieStyle]

Damaging against shields, extra damage to health, causes enemies to panic and mitigates vorcha and krogan healings factors. It's, IIRC, the only ammo with degen.

I'm pretty sure Incendiary Ammo does extra damage to armor not shields. Also, warp ammo also halts regen. Finally, I find the panic and regen-halting aspects of ammo not all that great. By the time you get down to health, most of the hard work has been done already.

Also, I don't like the damage over time nature of Incendiary Ammo. I much prefer the insta-gib quality of Armor Piercing, Warp and Disruptor Ammo.

[MANoob]

WillieStyle wrote...
That isn't really relevant.  As long as
# of shots required to kill enemy with cloak < # of shots required to kill enemy without cloak, 
cloak isn't redundant.  Which is all I was arguing.

Cloack isn't redundant. It's one of the best powers out there. But saying that classes other than soldier/infiltrator are bad with SRs is wrong. In fact a high level sentinel can do quite some damage with any weapon he takes just because he won't have to take cover as often as other classes. As a sentinel I often took cover only to reload my weapon.

[vhatever]

Ingahootz wrote...


It's more like you're presented with counter arguments and avoid them by calling other people idiots. I still stand by my point, sniper rifle will be faster in most cases over the pistol. Your kill rate will not be the same because a sniper rifle will begin killing before you. A sniper rifle will still be killing while you take "position" over and over. A sniper rifle will have everything dead and begin moving to the end while you're still killing. In a lot of cases you MIGHT end up at the end at the same time. You say that your pistol skills + rushing are "ZOMG UBER!" Well my sniper rifle skills are "ZOMG UBER!" In case you didn't know, you can snipe targets that are under cover.

Oh, you can magically shoot targets under cover. All the time. Uh-huh. Yes, when you are at a higher level than them, you can often snipe a tiny little portion of their armor, but you are just as likely to miss in many cases, and in many cases the angle just isnt there and you cant sniper them. You spend most of your time wating for a head shot. As soon as my tactical cloak is up I'm dropping two enemies in many cases. You maybe will kill one in the same amount of time. You do know you can get like 4 damage cloaked bullets off from cloak, right? It's amazing how ignorant you are of infiltrators abilities when that's probably all you actually play. Save me your claims otherwise.

Ingahootz wrote...
Have you ever cleared an entire collector platform the second before it landed with the pistol? No? I've done it with the Widow. It's absolutely amazing seeing it cleared and another one landing without the collectors getting to fire a single shot back at you. Of course, you'd know all about this since you're such a godly player right?

Your infiltrator gets a widow from levels 1-10? Wow, you are pretty uber. Uberly dumb.

[WillieStyle]

MANoob wrote...

WillieStyle wrote...
That isn't really relevant.  As long as
# of shots required to kill enemy with cloak < # of shots required to kill enemy without cloak, 
cloak isn't redundant.  Which is all I was arguing.

Cloack isn't redundant. It's one of the best powers out there. But saying that classes other than soldier/infiltrator are bad with SRs is wrong. In fact a high level sentinel can do quite some damage with any weapon he takes just because he won't have to take cover as often as other classes. As a sentinel I often took cover only to reload my weapon.

I didn't say other classes were bad with Sniper rifles.  If anything, all classes should train sniper rifles just for the long range zoom allowing you to cast powers further.
I just said that Soldiers and Infiltrators were the best classes at using Sniper Rifles.

[WillieStyle]

You do know you can get like 4 damage cloaked bullets off from cloak, right?

This is actually interesting. Are you sure Cloak boosts damage for a duration, not just for 1 shot?

I've always suspected this but never been able to prove it.

[Ingahootz]

vhatever wrote...

Ingahootz wrote...


It's more like you're presented with counter arguments and avoid them by calling other people idiots. I still stand by my point, sniper rifle will be faster in most cases over the pistol. Your kill rate will not be the same because a sniper rifle will begin killing before you. A sniper rifle will still be killing while you take "position" over and over. A sniper rifle will have everything dead and begin moving to the end while you're still killing. In a lot of cases you MIGHT end up at the end at the same time. You say that your pistol skills + rushing are "ZOMG UBER!" Well my sniper rifle skills are "ZOMG UBER!" In case you didn't know, you can snipe targets that are under cover.

Oh, you can magically shoot targets under cover. All the time. Uh-huh. Yes, when you are at a higher level than them, you can often snipe a tiny little portion of their armor, but you are just as likely to miss in many cases, and in many cases the angle just isnt there and you cant sniper them. You spend most of your time wating for a head shot. As soon as my tactical cloak is up I'm dropping two enemies in many cases. You maybe will kill one in the same amount of time. You do know you can get like 4 damage cloaked bullets off from cloak, right? It's amazing how ignorant you are of infiltrators abilities when that's probably all you actually play. Save me your claims otherwise.

Ingahootz wrote...
Have you ever cleared an entire collector platform the second before it landed with the pistol? No? I've done it with the Widow. It's absolutely amazing seeing it cleared and another one landing without the collectors getting to fire a single shot back at you. Of course, you'd know all about this since you're such a godly player right?

Your infiltrator gets a widow from levels 1-10? Wow, you are pretty uber. Uberly dumb.

You can still head shot people while they're under cover. Skill plays a major factor in here.

The Widow was an example. There's plenty of other situations where you can clear a room faster with a sniper rifle than a pistol user can. You keep calling me dumb but it's quite obvious that I'm not the stupid one here. I love your claims about clearing mordin's mission in 10 minutes. So chalk full of BS it's amazing.

It's ok though, we all understand that you need to over compensate for your low self esteem. Honestly though I think it's best if everyone just started ignoring your posts. Most of them are full of BS, you're obviously not as good as you claim, and you put other people down on a none stop basis for no reason. You'd be doing the world a great service if you drowned yourself in your own toilet.

Modifié par Ingahootz, 08 février 2010 - 06:46 .