532 réponses à ce sujet

[Graunt]

sinosleep wrote...

If I post each and every mission in the game 1 by 1, and charge at nearly everything for the majority of the game are you going to accuse me of cheating again? I honestly don't even know if I have the hard drive space for all that video but it's getting to the point where I might do it just to make you look silly, again.

Sure, except the problem is you wouldn't do this.  You would skip all of the rocket launchers, combat drones, security robots and similarly walled off enemies because it doesn't fit your argument.

[sinosleep]

Hey Graunt, who has been the one proven to put his foot squarely in his mouth repeatedly in this thread? That would be you. Who has been practically the only one providing any video evidence whatsoever? That would be me. So you can take your accusations and shove em. I've told you REPEATEDLY how easy it is to handle people you can't charge. Use your squad to get rid of defenses (takes about, oh, a second), then you shoot them with the pistol to finish them off (takes about, oh, a second). Whoop ti friggen doo.

Modifié par sinosleep, 09 février 2010 - 07:51 .

[MGIII]

Graunt wrote...

sinosleep wrote...

If I post each and every mission in the game 1 by 1, and charge at nearly everything for the majority of the game are you going to accuse me of cheating again? I honestly don't even know if I have the hard drive space for all that video but it's getting to the point where I might do it just to make you look silly, again.

Sure, except the problem is you wouldn't do this.  You would skip all of the rocket launchers, combat drones, security robots and similarly walled off enemies because it doesn't fit your argument.

There are enemies you can't Charge because you could possibly get stuck if you didn't have any enemy to Charge back to player geometry. Snipe them. they are few and far between (mostly on Mordin's mission). Them and the Heavy Troopers aren't anything but a few trigger pulls from a Viper to silence.

[kznlol]

Graunt wrote...

sinosleep wrote...

If I post each and every mission in the game 1 by 1, and charge at nearly everything for the majority of the game are you going to accuse me of cheating again? I honestly don't even know if I have the hard drive space for all that video but it's getting to the point where I might do it just to make you look silly, again.

Sure, except the problem is you wouldn't do this.  You would skip all of the rocket launchers, combat drones, security robots and similarly walled off enemies because it doesn't fit your argument.

Because those are a majority of the mobs in the game?

Charge is the most versatile ability in the game, and the only reason Sentinels even get discussed is that they make the game on Insanity less tedious - not less difficult.

When Charge isn't a viable option (a minority of the time already), Vanguards have plenty of CC available, and really only lack a weapon meant for true long range.

[Graunt]

MGIII wrote...
Well, how about this: Name a situation that isn't a "boss" (i.e, Heavy mechs, Praets, Scions) and I'll snipe the enemies that can't be Charged and then Rushdown the rest. Simple as. I'll try to put up the video as fast as I can (my play time is somewhat limited), so forgive me if I don't immediately accomplish it.

I'm sorry, what are you debating now, that charge can be used more than it can be or that the Vanguard can quickly beat the game?  Because every class should have a reasonably close finish time, give or take a few hours considering it's a shoot and cover based game, especially on Insanity.  classes that get off bigger hits, or more hits at the same time however have a pretty decent advantage against clumped enemies just as the Vanguard might be equal to a Soldier or Infiltrator on solitary non boss enemies.  The difference is that those classes don't have to stop picking out single targets within groups to use their class defining ability on and they can all use rifles, so arguing that is moot.

Modifié par Graunt, 09 février 2010 - 07:54 .

[kznlol]

Graunt wrote...

Because every class should have a reasonably close finish time, give or take a few hours considering it's a shoot and cover based game, especially on Insanity.

Except, for significant segments of the game, Charge allows you to ignore that nature and kill things vastly faster than would otherwise be possible (sinosleep's video is such a segment).

Believe me, an Infiltrator has to get _vastly_ luckier to get remotely close to sinosleep's times, and the run is much more demanding for the player. I've actually tried to beat his time. Have you?

Modifié par kznlol, 09 février 2010 - 07:57 .

[sinosleep]

kznlol wrote...

Graunt wrote...

Because every class should have a reasonably close finish time, give or take a few hours considering it's a shoot and cover based game, especially on Insanity.

Except, for significant segments of the game, Charge allows you to ignore that nature and kill things vastly faster than would otherwise be possible (sinosleep's video is such a segment).

Believe me, an Infiltrator has to get _vastly_ luckier to get remotely close to sinosleep's times, and the run is much more demanding for the player. I've actually tried to beat his time. Have you?

This is where he's going to come up with something hypocritcal to say, and then not have the intestinal fortitude to put his money where is mouth is, get fraps, and UPLOAD A DAMNED VIDEO.

[Graunt]

kznlol wrote...

Graunt wrote...

Because every class should have a reasonably close finish time, give or take a few hours considering it's a shoot and cover based game, especially on Insanity.

Except, for significant segments of the game, Charge allows you to ignore that nature and kill things vastly faster than would otherwise be possible (sinosleep's video is such a segment).

Believe me, an Infiltrator has to get _vastly_ luckier to get remotely close to sinosleep's times, and the run is much more demanding for the player. I've actually tried to beat his time. Have you?

Name which map in particular.  And then I'll have to record myself beating a map that has 30% ranged or grouped enemies and see how well charge works out at speed clearing on that.  Again, all he's doing is picking out maps that play to the strengths of charge while acting like the entire game is like that when it's not even remotely close.

[MGIII]

Graunt wrote...

MGIII wrote...
Well, how about this: Name a situation that isn't a "boss" (i.e, Heavy mechs, Praets, Scions) and I'll snipe the enemies that can't be Charged and then Rushdown the rest. Simple as. I'll try to put up the video as fast as I can (my play time is somewhat limited), so forgive me if I don't immediately accomplish it.

I'm sorry, what are you debating now, that charge can be used more than it can be or that the Vanguard can quickly beat the game?  Because every class should have a reasonably close finish time, give or take a few hours considering it's a shoot and cover based game, especially on Insanity.  classes that get off bigger hits, or more hits at the same time however have a pretty decent advantage against clumped enemies just as the Vanguard might be equal to a Soldier or Infiltrator on solitary non boss enemies.  The difference is that those classes don't have to stop picking out single targets within groups to use their class defining ability on and they can all use rifles, so arguing that is moot.

The class defining ability of a Soldier is slowing down time to "lol line up headshots" (which you shouldn't even need if you're even somewhat decent) while giving a damage boost to weapons.

The class defining ability of the Infiltrator is increasing weapons damage and making the AI dumber than it already is.

The class defining ability of the Vanguard is to bring shotguns into use (the only class to make shotguns worthwhile), while putting you in range to two-shot a shielded enemy and send an unshielded one flying, at the same time boasting one of the shortest cooldowns in the game to increase the spammability of it, while also giving the player a psuedo Barrier effect that recharges up to 100% of shields. Its tactical applications are on par with Tactical Cloak and its battlefield manueverabliity is second to none. Also, it brings about a way to play ME2 that is completely unprecedented in the history of the franchise, while the other classes are hardly distinctive from one another (Infies are the best answer with TC).

The point I'm "debating" is your assertion that Charge being used in the way sino showed was completely situational, and that for the majority of the conflicts in the game, Vanguards are largely useless. I'm willing to disprove that claim with video evidence. All you need to do now is give me a situation in the game (that's not a boss fight) that you are skeptical that a Rushdown Vanguard can overcome.

Modifié par MGIII, 09 février 2010 - 08:13 .

[sinosleep]

Graunt wrote...

Name which map in particular.  And then I'll have to record myself beating a map that has 30% ranged or grouped enemies and see how well charge works out at speed clearing on that.  Again, all he's doing is picking out maps that play to the strengths of charge while acting like the entire game is like that when it's not even remotely close.

Except you are so horrendously wrong it's hardly even that funny any more. Are you seriously arguing there are more portions of the game where charge can't be used than where it can? Cause that is truly moronic. Basically every stage in the game works out the same way, hell, even the damned reviewers who praised on the game harped on that aspect of it. A room with a bunch of waist high boxes to use or cover. 90% of all mobs on those levels are going to be at ground level. Guess what you can do to them? I'll give you a clue, it's the vanguards class ability and it starts with the letter C.

Modifié par sinosleep, 09 février 2010 - 08:28 .

[kznlol]

Graunt wrote...

Name which map in particular.  And then I'll have to record myself beating a map that has 30% ranged or grouped enemies and see how well charge works out at speed clearing on that.  Again, all he's doing is picking out maps that play to the strengths of charge while acting like the entire game is like that when it's not even remotely close.

The Korlus segment, from door opening to the bridge (or to the end of the fraps'd version, if you're feeling like a hero).

The point is, especially if you have a Vanguard with a sniper rifle, every segment where an Infiltrator shines can be done with relative ease, at the cost of maybe ~10 seconds. No class but Vanguards can truly shine in areas like the Korlus segment, without tremendous amounts of luck. I got within 2 seconds of the first video's time, but I only managed it once and it was a ridiculously good run, with enemies never taking cover at the wrong moment, tremendous heavy weapons abuse, and almost no use of the sniper rifle (because, frankly, the assault rifle is faster).

[edit] And lets be honest, my aim is significantly better than the majority of players, even if the mouse sens in the game screws with me constantly. Your average player is significantly more likely to be effective with a Vanguard than with an Infiltrator, and your high-end player is going to have a much easier time extracting the full potential of a Vanguard than an Infiltrator.

Infils just aren't meant for Insanity, unless you have a ridiculous amount of patience.

[edit2] Not to mention, if you give a high-end player a Vanguard with a sniper rifle, he's basically an Infiltrator with charge, minus the damage bonuses.

Modifié par kznlol, 09 février 2010 - 08:19 .

[Graunt]

kznlol wrote...
[edit2] Not to mention, if you give a high-end player a Vanguard with a sniper rifle, he's basically an Infiltrator with charge, minus the damage bonuses.

If you give a high-end player an Engineer with a sniper rifle, he's basically an Infiltrator with a drone.
If you give a high-end player an Adept with a sniper rifle, he's basically an Infiltrator with Singularity.
If you give a high-end player a Sentinel with a sniper rifle, he's basically an Infiltrator with Tactical Armor.

...minus the damage bonsues.  Because remember folks, those damage bonuses don't go towards clearing out areas head shotting enemies one by one in the same way a Vanguard can charge from solitary enemy to solitary enemy.  How many things can a Vanguard one shot with a Sniper? And I also didn't realize they had access to the Widow.  You even said it yourself that you came within two seconds, luck or no luck.  A Vanguard isn't going to do that on over half of the maps in the game.

Modifié par Graunt, 09 février 2010 - 08:45 .

[sinosleep]

Except 90% of the maps in this game play out the same way. Room, with waist high boxes on the ground floor for you and your enemies to take cover behind. Guess what can happen to them? It's the vanguards class ability and it starts with the word c. Crazy, I know.

[kznlol]

Graunt wrote...

If you give a high-end player an Engineer with a sniper rifle, he's basically an Infiltrator with a drone.
If you give a high-end player an Adept with a sniper rifle, he's basically an Infiltrator with Singularity.
If you give a high-end player a Sentinel with a sniper rifle, he's basically an Infiltrator with Tactical Armor.

None of which allow you to ignore the cover/shoot nature of the game for significant segments.

How many things can a Vanguard one shot with a Sniper? And I also didn't realize they had access to the Widow.  You even said it yourself that you came within two seconds, luck or no luck.  A Vanguard isn't going to do that on over half of the maps in the game.

No, I came within 2 seconds with tremendous luck*. I would require luck like that to 'speed' through any segment of the game remotely fast. Moreover, you have no chance in hell of competing with a Vanguard speedrun if you've got a Widow - the Widow is unworkably bad as a main weapon, because of ammo concerns, and it forces you to sacrifice an assault rifle, which is the only weapon in the game capable of performing even remotely as well as a sniper rifle, in the absence of a game-changing ability like Charge.

Speedruns, in particular, are not an area Infiltrators will ever be strong on, unless you count speeding through 12-13 enemy segments entirely to abuse the Widow a speedrun. Widow abuse is even less consistent a strategy than Charge abuse.

*I managed 1:59 with rather less luck and some mistakes: 

Modifié par kznlol, 09 février 2010 - 08:53 .

[Soruyao]

Graunt wrote...

kznlol wrote...
[edit2] Not to mention, if you give a high-end player a Vanguard with a sniper rifle, he's basically an Infiltrator with charge, minus the damage bonuses.

If you give a high-end player an Engineer with a sniper rifle, he's basically an Infiltrator with a drone.
If you give a high-end player an Adept with a sniper rifle, he's basically an Infiltrator with Singularity.
If you give a high-end player a Sentinel with a sniper rifle, he's basically an Infiltrator with Tactical Armor.

...minus the damage bonsues.  Because remember folks, those damage bonuses don't go towards clearing out areas head shotting enemies one by one in the same way a Vanguard can charge from solitary enemy to solitary enemy.  How many things can a Vanguard one shot with a Sniper? And I also didn't realize they had access to the Widow.  You even said it yourself that you came within two seconds, luck or no luck.  A Vanguard isn't going to do that on over half of the maps in the game.

Except 90% of the enemies that spawn on unreachable balconies are squishy heavy weapon firing guys.  There's never a really tough higher tier enemy in an unreachable place.   A vanguard with a sniper rifle is totally powerful enough to take them down.   Everything else can be charged.

[Graunt]

kznlol wrote...

Graunt wrote...

If you give a high-end player an Engineer with a sniper rifle, he's basically an Infiltrator with a drone.
If you give a high-end player an Adept with a sniper rifle, he's basically an Infiltrator with Singularity.
If you give a high-end player a Sentinel with a sniper rifle, he's basically an Infiltrator with Tactical Armor.

None of which allow you to ignore the cover/shoot nature of the game for significant segments.

How many things can a Vanguard one shot with a Sniper? And I also didn't realize they had access to the Widow.  You even said it yourself that you came within two seconds, luck or no luck.  A Vanguard isn't going to do that on over half of the maps in the game.

No, I came within 2 seconds with tremendous luck*. I would require luck like that to 'speed' through any segment of the game remotely fast. Moreover, you have no chance in hell of competing with a Vanguard speedrun if you've got a Widow - the Widow is unworkably bad as a main weapon, because of ammo concerns, and it forces you to sacrifice an assault rifle, which is the only weapon in the game capable of performing even remotely as well as a sniper rifle, in the absence of a game-changing ability like Charge.

Speedruns, in particular, are not an area Infiltrators will ever be strong on, unless you count speeding through 12-13 enemy segments entirely to abuse the Widow a speedrun. Widow abuse is even less consistent a strategy than Charge abuse.

*I managed 1:59 with rather less luck and some mistakes: 

Notice you're playing NG+?  Big difference between Insanity and NG+.  As far as I know, all of his videos have been on Insanity.  He would get ripped to shreds on NG+ in the same areas he's almost dying at on just Insanity.  And why are you trying to show a speed run with an Infiltrator and don't use one sniper shot?  Even if ammo was a concern there were plenty that you could have taken out at a much faster rate, and since you claim that your aim is so great, you should be able to pop in and out of cover to snipe in the same way you used the assault rifle.  Trying to race with a cane and then compare it to a highschool track star in perfect health doesn't make any sense.

Modifié par Graunt, 09 février 2010 - 09:15 .

[sinosleep]

Soruyao wrote...

Except 90% of the enemies that spawn on unreachable balconies are squishy heavy weapon firing guys.  There's never a really tough higher tier enemy in an unreachable place.   A vanguard with a sniper rifle is totally powerful enough to take them down.   Everything else can be charged.

Sad thing is you don't even need a sniper rifle. When I get home (I'm at work), I'm going to make a vid of me pistol sniping the starting portion of Grunt's recruitment mission. The part I didn't include in my fraps vid not becuase it's hard, but because it's BORING. Miranda overloads, I shoot with the pistol, rinse repeat. I do it in no time, and with no issues whatsoever. But it's not nearly as fun to watch as charging and shotgunning is. I'm sure he'll find some way to discredit it as he's done with every other thing he's posted about in this thread.

[kznlol]

Graunt wrote...

Notice you're playing NG+?

Do you really think that it would be _faster_ if I was playing a normal game? The starter rifle shares all of the issues of the Widow, except its worse - so thats out, as a workable mainstay for speedruns. None of the Infil abilities are capable of killing mobs fast enough to speedrun. The initial pistol(s) are horribly worthless if your aim is speedy kills, and the initial SMG is horribly inaccurate on top of all that (frankly, so is the later one).

If you dont have a Viper, at the very least, you're not getting remotely close to 1:46. But hell, I invite you to try - I'd learn something, which hasn't happened in gaming for quite some time, let me tell you.

[edit] And I'll point out, I _tried_ with a Viper first, on the basis that hey, all my damage bonuses are there. It was slower than the assault rifle.

Modifié par kznlol, 09 février 2010 - 09:11 .

[Graunt]

kznlol wrote...

Graunt wrote...

Notice you're playing NG+?

Do you really think that it would be _faster_ if I was playing a normal game? The starter rifle shares all of the issues of the Widow, except its worse - so thats out, as a workable mainstay for speedruns. None of the Infil abilities are capable of killing mobs fast enough to speedrun. The initial pistol(s) are horribly worthless if your aim is speedy kills, and the initial SMG is horribly inaccurate on top of all that (frankly, so is the later one).

If you dont have a Viper, at the very least, you're not getting remotely close to 1:46. But hell, I invite you to try - I'd learn something, which hasn't happened in gaming for quite some time, let me tell you.

[edit] And I'll point out, I _tried_ with a Viper first, on the basis that hey, all my damage bonuses are there. It was slower than the assault rifle.

Considering you can one shot a lot of the fully shielded blue sons mercs at level 7 with the starter rifle on normal  I'd have to say definitely.  I know NG+ treats you like you already have fully upgraded weapons and armor, but are they also scaled with your level or always static?  If they scale with your level, you're going to be significantly stronger in Insanity even before fully upgraded gear compared to NG+ due to how your damage scaling remains static after a point while the enemy defenses are already well beyond what they would have been in comparison on Insanity.

Modifié par Graunt, 09 février 2010 - 09:29 .

[sinosleep]

I can't believe I'm saying this, Graunt is right in that the starter sniper rifle will one shot things on a standard insanity game, the benefit to your speed run however is questionable because of the slow reload speed. Also keep in mind that I didn't use a single active power in the fraps ediion of that speed run. Jacob's squad ammo was the only power I used, no overload, no pull, not even telling them to target anything. Had I bothered using my squad I would have finished even faster.

Modifié par sinosleep, 09 février 2010 - 09:33 .

[kznlol]

Well, I'll try it. Probably wont get anything uploaded tonight, cause I have class, but we'll see.

[Graunt]

sinosleep wrote...

I can't believe I'm saying this, Graunt is right in that the starter sniper rifle will one shot things on a standard insanity game, the benefit to your speed run however is questionable because of the slow reload speed. Also keep in mind that I didn't use a single active power in the fraps ediion of that speed run. Jacob's squad ammo was the only power I used, no overload, no pull, not even telling them to target anything. Had I bothered using my squad I would have finished even faster.

Can you clarify which difficulty setting you were playing on?  I'm pretty sure it was Insanity because most of your early videos were around level 9-11 and you never mentioned taking a level 30.  

Also, there's one thing that I'm going to admit about the Vanguard and the difficulty in the earliest levels...it's not quite as bad as what I was dealing with initially.  This was due to a few lelvels difference however.  Most of my characters started out at level 3 because I was importing a level 55 instead of 60. I would end up at the Archangel section after doing Mordin, the Normandy and Zaeed and still only being level 7 or whatever would get me up to rank 3 charge, not 4.

After importing a 60, it became much easier to do Omega, especially when your squadmates have more abilities to fool around with as well.  And doing Zaeed's sidequest before either Mordin or Archangel speeds those runs up significantly regardless of what class your own character is.  Grenade is amazing.

.

Modifié par Graunt, 09 février 2010 - 09:48 .

[sinosleep]

All my vids are on insanity, most of them using an imported lvl 60 character. The only vid that's not is the one where I'm talking about claymore damage on insanity. That was a lvl 55 imported character.

[Soruyao]

On a completely unrelated optimality topic, I was arguing earlier in the godzilla sized biotic thread that I think has since died that singularity is better CC than a combat drone.

It occured to me to try using both my heavy singularity and tali's assault drone, and it's AMAZING.   Entire groups of enemies were being locked down at once, and the assault drone was beating peoples shields mercilessly.  Not only was stuff unable to advance on me, I pinned an entire group of enemies inside the tunnel they spawned in.    I softened them up a little with my geth rifle and then mordin cryo froze them all.   Then I threw one into a wall, shattering it from full health.   The drone killed another and gunfire took down the rest.

It was amazing.  =o   I cannot wait to try it with two combat drones and a singularity.   It almost felt as overpowered as singularity used to be in ME1!

I strongly reccomend people try this at some point.  It's fun and efficient.

[kznlol]

sinosleep wrote...

I can't believe I'm saying this, Graunt is right in that the starter sniper rifle will one shot things on a standard insanity game, the benefit to your speed run however is questionable because of the slow reload speed. Also keep in mind that I didn't use a single active power in the fraps ediion of that speed run. Jacob's squad ammo was the only power I used, no overload, no pull, not even telling them to target anything. Had I bothered using my squad I would have finished even faster.

I just rushed a lvl60 import to Krolus, level 7, starter sniper rifle. Out of Assassination Cloak, it will only oneshot early mobs in the very first part of the segment (I'm guessing, because I didn't actually land a headshot from cloak on any of them). On later mobs, specifically Legionnaires, a cloaked headshot does not even fully penetrate shields.

At cursory inspection, it may speed up this particular segment by up to 10 seconds if I land everything. I will point out also that I'm fairly sure I could improve on silosleep's time by 10 seconds too, and I don't even like vanguards. The starter rifle/Widow are still limited by ammo over longer segments - this particular segment has like 15 mobs total so its not a major issue if you land every shot.

I'll spend some more time on it later, if I'm not too busy, but even with this improvement, I'm not convinced infiltrators can compete even over this specific segment - and I'm sure they cant compete over an entire level.