532 réponses à ce sujet

[sinosleep]

tetracycloide wrote...

Example flawed.  Bonuses differ.  10% and100%, additive.  -90% and 0%, multiplicative.  Identity function of addition is + 0.  Identity function of multiplication is * 1.  Multiplicative bonuses are thus 110% * 200% = 220%.  Additive 110% bonus plus 100% base.  Total 210%.  I know which I'd prefer.

THERE we go. I was all conused when I first read this post, now it's on par with what I was expecting.

[Soruyao]

sinosleep wrote...

tetracycloide wrote...

Example flawed.  Bonuses differ.  10% and100%, additive.  -90% and 0%, multiplicative.  Identity function of addition is + 0.  Identity function of multiplication is * 1.  Multiplicative bonuses are thus 110% * 200% = 220%.  Additive 110% bonus plus 100% base.  Total 210%.  I know which I'd prefer.

THERE we go. I was all conused when I first read this post, now it's on par with what I was expecting.

You can always trust a salarian to clear up a math question.   :3

[Hoffburger]

If it all multiplies onto the damage then sure, multiplicative is better. If some percentages affect other percentages then it's a different story because you are multiplying fractions.



Example: Upgrades give +50% damage bonus or 1.5x damage. Being at close range gives a +100% damage bonus or 2x damage. If they both multiply onto the damage, you get 3x damage. If the +100% affects the +50% for whatever reason, you get 2x damage. If it is additive you get 2.5x damage.



So until we can figure out the damage equation we can't say if additive or multiplicative is better. If everything affects the base damage then I was wrong and multiplicative is better. If it's some funky damage equation then who knows.

[WillieStyle]

If the +100% affects the +50% for whatever reason, you get 2x damage. If it is additive you get 2.5x damage.

This example makes no sense. You seem to be describing some nonlinear interaction between damage bonuses which is neither additive nor multiplicative.



Damage bonuses stacking multiplicatively is always better than damage bonuses stacking additively.



In any case, the plain fact is that Adrenaline Rush DOES NOT double your damage if you have other damage bonuses. You don't need any algebra to prove this. Just test it in game for yourself.



The reason it doesn't double your damage is that bonuses stack additively in this game; but that's academic.

[tetracycloide]

Hoffburger wrote...

If the +100% affects the +50% for whatever reason, you get 2x damage.

Hypothetical bug.  Invalid counterpoint.

Modifié par tetracycloide, 10 février 2010 - 05:42 .

[WillieStyle]

Dude! Stop explaining stuff better than me. You're hurting my ego.
[Edit]
Mordin doesn't use articles. 

Modifié par WillieStyle, 10 février 2010 - 05:37 .

[tetracycloide]

WillieStyle wrote...

Dude! Stop explaining stuff better than me. You're hurting my ego.
[Edit]
Mordin doesn't use articles. 

Never?  Exhibit A.  Pun intended.

http://www.youtube.c...P92rvm1hQ#t=58s

Modifié par tetracycloide, 10 février 2010 - 05:51 .

[Hoffburger]

tetracycloide wrote...

Hoffburger wrote...

If the +100% affects the +50% for whatever reason, you get 2x damage.

Hypothetical bug.  Invalid counterpoint.

Maybe so, but tons of MMOs I've played do stuff like this, causing multiplicative bonuses to be worse than if they were additive. My brain might just be too engrained with that mindset, meh.

[WillieStyle]

tetracycloide wrote...

WillieStyle wrote...

Dude! Stop explaining stuff better than me. You're hurting my ego.
[Edit]
Mordin doesn't use articles. 

Never?  Exhibit A.  Pun intended.

http://www.youtube.c...P92rvm1hQ#t=58s

Sigh! I just can't win.

[MANoob]

Ok, let me explain

We have 3 damage bonses: AR, tungsten ammo and upgraded weapon: +100%, +70% +50%



Multiplicative: 1*(1+1)*(1+0.7)*(1+0.5) = 5.1 = 510% - means 410% bonus



Additive: 1+ 1 + 0.7 +0.5 =3.2 = 320% means 220% bonus - thats how it works in game



In case of multiplicative bonuses each bonus adds a percentage of the total value.

In case of additive bonuses each bonus adds a percentage of the base value.



I'm sure that's not too hard to understand.

[vhatever]

What Hoff is talking about is the propensity of games, usually MMO, to have nonsensical formulas for things, in order to "balance" the game.

So, let's we have reserarched biotic cooldown or whatever it's called of 20%, and your chaarcter has a class based biotic cooldown reduction of 30%. So you would expect your biotic with a 10 second cooldown to recharge in 5 seconds. So ou test it, but find it doesn't work that way. There is only one way additive reduction of the cooldown would work, it's 10 (.30+.20)= 5 second cooldown But there are two ways to do the multiplicative case. You could do the standard and most obvious multiplicative way,  which would be better than a 5 second cooldown from additive. But the confusion comes when they use this fomrula X/(reduction percent 1 x reduction percent 2). So, it would be 5/(1.20 x 1.30), which comes out to something like 6.5 second cooldown.

Modifié par vhatever, 10 février 2010 - 11:36 .

[vhatever]

I guess, to be thorough, you could use that retarded reciprocal formula with addition. I've never seen any game do that, however. But in that case multiplicative would still be "better" than additive.

[Kurupt87]

additive is better because you don't get single dmg bonuses above 100%, most are between 5% and 50%. from how i understand the dmg increase syetem to work is,

x=base dmg

a, b, c = % increases

y=new dmg



additive: x(a+b+c)=y

multiplicative: x(a*b*c)=y



putting in any value sees additive as better. fyi, i dont know that this is how it works, but it seems the most logical way to me.

[WillieStyle]

Kurupt87 wrote...

additive is better because you don't get single dmg bonuses above 100%, most are between 5% and 50%. from how i understand the dmg increase syetem to work is,
x=base dmg
a, b, c = % increases
y=new dmg

additive: x(a+b+c)=y
multiplicative: x[(1+a)*(1+*(1+c)]=y

putting in any value sees multiplicative as better.

Fixed that for you.

Multiplicative stacking is ALWAYS better. That's why compound intereset is better than simple interest.
And with that, I'm just going to let this topic drop.  I feeling like I'm spamming now.

Modifié par WillieStyle, 10 février 2010 - 02:53 .

[Kurupt87]

/giveup
this is pointless as we dont know what the dmg equation is

Modifié par Kurupt87, 10 février 2010 - 04:06 .

[Graunt]

I'd like to see someone taking a Vanguard through the end area of the Zaeed mission (the area with the fuel tanks above and the mech).  I died 23 times on this stage because of "can't target, can't get a lock" over and over.  I then took a Soldier through here and didn't die once.  I couldn't charge someone directly within line of sight that was just a few feet in front of me, yet I can charge 40 yards through a bunch of rails and walls to someone else?

Modifié par Graunt, 10 février 2010 - 05:57 .

[MANoob]

I can confirm that health/shield bonuses work like that:

MANoob wrote...
Additive: 1+ 1 + 0.7 +0.5 =3.2 = 320% means 220% bonus - thats how it works in game

You can check this yourself. This leads me to believe that damage and cooldown bonuses work in a similar manner. Of course it's pure speculation, but from my experience it is at least pretty close to what you see in the game.

Modifié par MANoob, 10 février 2010 - 06:37 .

[vhatever]

The can't get a lock thing is why I abandoned my first vanguard before I even got to horizon. Can't you run through and charge the "sleeping" heavy mech, then open the final door anyway?

[Graunt]

vhatever wrote...

The can't get a lock thing is why I abandoned my first vanguard before I even got to horizon. Can't you run through and charge the "sleeping" heavy mech, then open the final door anyway?

Haha, good call.  I swore that door was locked and I thought you had to clear out the room, including the mech to open it.

Modifié par Graunt, 10 février 2010 - 07:00 .

[sinosleep]

This is for all the shotgun haters, your damage stats have been wrong all along.

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/128/index/1081922/1#1129046

key quote

Christina Norman wrote...

RamsenC wrote...

note: The shotgun damage is actually per pellet and each shotgun shoots 4 pellets. I will list the damage as if all 4 pellets hit to avoid confusion.

The danger of parsing INI files....

Shotguns actually fire 8 pellets. We only render 4 impacts for performance reasons, but it's 8, not 4!

I didn't know what the problem was with the damage stats, but I've said all along and shown in my vids that shotgun damage, even early shotgun damage, was quite good posted stats be damned. Now I do know what the problem was. The stats posted were the damage numbers from the ini x4, when it should have been x8.

Modifié par sinosleep, 11 février 2010 - 03:07 .

[Hoffburger]

Ruh roh, that means M-22 with AR is probably king.

[Hoffburger]

Another thing to test would be if the TC damage bonus lasts the whole time you are cloaked graphically or if it is only for 1 shot.



If it lasts for longer than 1 shot then Infiltrators would be back on top of DPS with the M-22 and tactical cloak because they would get nearly the same damage bonus without a time slowdown.

[Hoffburger]

One final note about multiplicative vs. additive.

Eric ****nan wrote...

Trefecka wrote...



How are they affected tho? Additively or multiplicatively?



Say for Tungsten Ammo (max level AP) w/ 15% power bonus::



70% + 15% = 85%



or



70%*1.15% = 80.5%



While the first one (additive bonuses) would be awesome, for some reason I'm more inclined to think that it would be multiplicative. Either way, amazing to hear that ammo powers do benefit from +power damage.

They are affected like your second example. If a weapon power gives you 40% more damage, and you have 15% bonus damage to powers from armor, then you get:



0.4 * 1.15 = 0.46



So you would do 46% more weapon damage.

[Hoffburger]

More math incoming with the new info:

Widow - 368.3*2.5  (368.3 base, assuming +%damage is additive and is hitting armor with a headshot, so +50%, +50%, and +50%) = 920.75

Widow - 368.3*1.5*1.5*1.5  (368.3 base, assuming +%damage is multiplicative and is
hitting armor with a headshot, so +50%, +50%, and +50%) = 1243.0125

Viper - 81.9*2.5  (81.9 base, assuming +%damage is additive and is hitting
armor with a headshot, so +50%, +50%, and +50%) = 204.75

Viper - 81.9*1.5*1.5*1.5  (81.9 base, assuming +%damage is multiplicative and is
hitting armor with a headshot, so +50%, +50%, and +50%) = 276.4125

Claymore - 50.1*8*3 (50.1*8 base, assuming +%damage is additive and is hitting shields with a headshot at point blank range, so +50%, +50%, +100%) = 1202.4

Claymore - 50.1*8*1.5*1.5*2 (50.1*8 base, assuming +%damage is multiplicative and is
hitting shields with a headshot at point blank range, so +50%, +50%,
+100%) = 1803.6

M-22 - 36.8*8*3 (36.8*8 base, assuming +%damage is additive and is hitting shields
with a headshot at point blank range, so +50%, +50%, +100%) = 883.2

M-22 - 36.8*8*1.5*1.5*2 (36.8*8 base, assuming +%damage is multiplicative and is
hitting shields
with a headshot at point blank range, so +50%, +50%,
+100%) = 1324.8

Revenant - 21.3*2.75 (21.3 base, assuming +%damage is additive and is hitting anything with a headshot at point blank range, so +50%, +25%, +100%) = 58.575

Revenant - 21.3*1.5*1.25*2 (21.3 base, assuming +%damage is multiplicative and is
hitting anything with a headshot at point blank range, so +50%, +25%,
+100%) = 79.875



My numbers were initially off because I mistakenly added +200% for close range 2x damage when it should've been +100%. New shotgun numbers look pretty ridiculous for Soldiers.

Modifié par Hoffburger, 11 février 2010 - 04:22 .

[sinosleep]

In regards to how % are done up

thread social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/128/index/1123228

key quote

Eric ****nan wrote...

Trefecka wrote...

How are they affected tho? Additively or multiplicatively?

Say for Tungsten Ammo (max level AP) w/ 15% power bonus::

70% + 15% = 85%

or

70%*1.15% = 80.5%

While the first one (additive bonuses) would be awesome, for some reason I'm more inclined to think that it would be multiplicative. Either way, amazing to hear that ammo powers do benefit from +power damage.

They are affected like your second example. If a weapon power gives you 40% more damage, and you have 15% bonus damage to powers from armor, then you get:

0.4 * 1.15 = 0.46

So you would do 46% more weapon damage.

In regards to the soldier, the question is how often can a soldier truly make any good use out of a shotgun? I ask this because even though I haven't ran a soldier playthrough to it's conclusion, I have dabbled in it and basically any weapon was of better use than the shotgun because getting into close enough range to use it effectively wasn't nearly as easy to do on a soldier as it was to do on a vanguard.