532 réponses à ce sujet

[Graunt]

Skemte wrote...
Why would you use charge during that scenerio anyways?

Do you not see the irony in that statement?  When the gameplay forces you into generic Soldier without AR mode, it begs the question; why am I just not a Soldier or Infiltrator?  I never said the class was completely useless at all times, but it always has to have ideal setups to function in a way that sets it apart from everyone else.  

All classes are obviously better after weapon, armor and skill upgrades but the Vanguard doesn't even seem like it's own character until level 8 at the very earliest and even then it's not really all that until level 20+.  On the lower levels and before 3/5 - 5/5 damage protection your shield gets ripped to shreds and then you get down to 1/4 life if there's more than one enemy within line of sight after a charge.  I'm sure after you have the cooldown down to 2 seconds it's a lot more manageable, but up until then it's really painful and slow (due to all of the critical mission failure screens).  Plus it has a really annoying target bug associated with the skill where you randomly can't "target" enemies that are right in front of you that actually have the target frame around them.

Don't get me wrong, charge *is* fun when you actually have the perfect pinball setup, but what's fun and what's optimal don't necessarily have to have anything in common.

Modifié par Graunt, 06 février 2010 - 12:33 .

[vhatever]

Unless you were playing some kind of "sniper soldier", it's hard to make an argument for heightened, since it slows down everything more, and that includes your own shooting speed. You get less bullets with the AR damage bonus on them, making it more of a downgrade than an upgrade.

[Mr.Skar]

MGIII wrote...

Mr.Skar wrote...

Man all this talk of the Infiltrator makes me want to finish my optimal FemShep ME1 run fast so I can play one. Clearly the new changes in gameplay focus have brought only good things for Soldier and Infiltrator. Soldier on Vet is a cake walk, can't wait to take him through Insanity.

No takers on my Soldier question? Still curious on how the different evolved Adrenaline Rush versions work. Making everything seem to hold still seems neat, 'cause I'm not that great a shot, but resisting pain while in this mode seems handy as well.

It's really only there to be a fallback if your either a) screw up, or want to play ME2 gung-ho. Effective use of cover is still by far and away the best mitigation of damage, and everything else just makes it easier to not suck.

You should be killing everything before they get near you.

I agree with you, just wanna here from those in the know. Cover is the best armor in the game, but slowing down time is so cool . Probably just gonna go with the "makes everything hold still" one.

EDIT: Well vhatever, does the damage resistance make a real difference? I could see how it could what with the whole 3 second cooldown and all. I gotta say, I didn't think about it slowing down my bullets as well, even though it clearly does. Hmm, maybe I should experiment a bit.

Modifié par Mr.Skar, 06 février 2010 - 01:16 .

[Hoffburger]

vhatever wrote...

Unless you were playing some kind of "sniper soldier", it's hard to make an argument for heightened, since it slows down everything more, and that includes your own shooting speed. You get less bullets with the AR damage bonus on them, making it more of a downgrade than an upgrade.

Anyone who can get the Widow and doesn't is a fool if they are going for speed/optimization.

[sinosleep]

Graunt wrote...

Do you not see the irony in that statement?  When the gameplay forces you into generic Soldier without AR mode, it begs the question; why am I just not a Soldier or Infiltrator?  I never said the class was completely useless at all times, but it always has to have ideal setups to function in a way that sets it apart from everyone else.  

All classes are obviously better after weapon, armor and skill upgrades but the Vanguard doesn't even seem like it's own character until level 8 at the very earliest and even then it's not really all that until level 20+.  On the lower levels and before 3/5 - 5/5 damage protection your shield gets ripped to shreds and then you get down to 1/4 life if there's more than one enemy within line of sight after a charge.  I'm sure after you have the cooldown down to 2 seconds it's a lot more manageable, but up until then it's really painful and slow (due to all of the critical mission failure screens).  Plus it has a really annoying target bug associated with the skill where you randomly can't "target" enemies that are right in front of you that actually have the target frame around them.

Don't get me wrong, charge *is* fun when you actually have the perfect pinball setup, but what's fun and what's optimal don't necessarily have to have anything in common.

There's no irony to the statement, he point out when it wouldn't be a smart move to charge. As I said in the other thread, being as this is a cover based shooter, these "ideal setups" are provided ALL THE TIME. Also, the vanguard "seems like its own character" as soon as you have evolved charge.

[Hoffburger]

I have revised my build slightly. Instead of keeping AP ammo throughout the game I have switched it up to Warp Ammo. Occasionally I would hit an enemy collector without using Tactical Cloak and they would still have a tiny sliver of health left. Warp Ammo fixes that.

Basically my new advice would be to use AP Ammo up until you start encountering Collectors then switch to Warp Ammo.

Thane might be more optimal than Garrus depending on how Shredder Ammo works. The description is kind've vague. Does it mean that it does +80% to all organics without shields or it does +80% to all organics without shields/armor/barrier. If it is the former then he does more damage than Garrus and still has Warp. Also, Legion is better once you can get him because Combat Drone is the best CC in the game and he gets to use the Widow. The only problem is that you get him so late in the game that it almost doesn't matter. I would stick with Garrus until you can use Legion with a Widow.

Modifié par Hoffburger, 06 février 2010 - 06:23 .

[Graunt]

Hoffburger wrote...

I have revised my build slightly. Instead of keeping AP ammo throughout the game I have switched it up to Warp Ammo. Occasionally I would hit an enemy collector without using Tactical Cloak and they would still have a tiny sliver of health left. Warp Ammo fixes that.

Basically my new advice would be to use AP Ammo up until you start encountering Collectors then switch to Warp Ammo.

Thane might be more optimal than Garrus depending on how Shredder Ammo works. The description is kind've vague. Does it mean that it does +80% to all organics without shields or it does +80% to all organics without shields/armor/barrier. If it is the former then he does more damage than Garrus and still has Warp. Also, Legion is better once you can get him because Combat Drone is the best CC in the game and he gets to use the Widow. The only problem is that you get him so late in the game that it almost doesn't matter. I would stick with Garrus until you can use Legion with a Widow.

Don't you only really encounter collectors in large groups three times in the entire game?  And about the ammo, that's the same question I had with Tungsten/Shredder from the first game that no one ever seemed to be able to answer.  If those bullets only damaged the health and didn't get any kind of bonus as long as shields and barriers were up, there wasn't a whole lot of point to using them over Cryo, Proton, Explosive or Incindiary.  And yeah, Legion was my second favorite party member, but it's like you said, you get him so late that the game is about over before you can really get much use out of him.  

BTW, why is this thread in the no spoilers section when you can't talk about specifics without minor spoilers?

There's no irony to the statement, he point out when it wouldn't be a
smart move to charge. As I said in the other thread, being as this is a
cover based shooter, these "ideal setups" are provided ALL THE TIME.
Also, the vanguard "seems like its own character" as soon as you have
evolved charge.

Name one other class that can't use their abilities and still take cover.  Even Warpbot spamming Adepts can still at least use *some* biotics besides just shooting a gun.  The evolved charge doesn't really make the class stand on it's own two feet either, the gameplay is virtually the same as ranks 1-3 until you can lower it's duration enough to use it again right after you killed your first target, if not before that.  You need to be able to charge something, then charge again right away on Insanity in larger fire fights.  Having to take cover non stop is just tedious and is really backwards for the theme of the class. Try doing Zaeed's side quest at level 7 and recruiting Jack at level 9...fun times.

The game was designed to be a "cover based shooter" like you said and the Vanguard was designed to get up close.  Is it sinking in yet?

*edit - Lol, try doing the Krogan mission at the lower levels, or ANY level as a Vanguard.  Guess what the entire first section revolved around?  Me being the target of rocket launcher and machine gunners up on unreachable walls while my teammates died over and over because they didn't know how to take cover from that solitary rocket launcher that wasn't actually targeting me.  Know what amazing Vanguard ability I used to clear it out?  Zaeed with rank 1 Disruptor rounds and 2 in the grenade.

Modifié par Graunt, 06 février 2010 - 05:01 .

[sinosleep]

You're right, I'm not standing on my own here at all, lol

www.youtube.com/watch

At all of level 9. Some one please, take a soldier and just run at these guys using nothing but your shotgun and clear that section in the same amount of time I did. Please, since level 4 charge isn't class defining and it's ALL I have maxed at that point.

Modifié par sinosleep, 06 février 2010 - 06:05 .

[Graunt]

sinosleep wrote...

You're right, I'm not standing on my own here at all, lol

www.youtube.com/watch

At all of level 9. Some one please, take a soldier and just run at these guys using nothing but your shotgun and clear that section in the same amount of time I did. Please, since level 4 charge isn't class defining and it's ALL I have maxed at that point.

How are you possibly doing that much damage on Insanity at level 9 with a shotgun?  I had every available upgrade up to that point for them and they did nowhere near that amount of damage, headhot or not.  Then again, I didn't take a bonus talent at the beginning so I could get the charge talents maxed sooner.  Also, why did you decide to start the clip AFTER all of the wall mounted enemies?  And why the hell would a Soldier run through that with a shotgun?  That makes no sense, they would use a Sniper or Assault Rifle.  And you aren't making any point about rank 4 other than the fact that it's not even needed to clear out areas.  It's not, any class can go through the game with just guns since the game was built around ranged attacks and cover.  This thread is about class defining abilities and charge is among the weakest of them all.

Modifié par Graunt, 06 février 2010 - 07:03 .

[sinosleep]

Well since you say with only level 4 charge a vanguard is just a gimped soldier then a soldier should be able to do it.

[Graunt]

sinosleep wrote...

Well since you say with only level 4 charge a vanguard is just a gimped soldier then a soldier should be able to do it.

That's a really weak comparison when the Vanguard cannot use Sniper or Assault rifles (early on) and a Soldier can which gives them a huge advantage.

Modifié par Graunt, 06 février 2010 - 07:06 .

[sinosleep]

I clearly don't need a sniper rifle or an assault rifle. I'm perfectly content and obviously quite proficient with just the shotty.

in regards to your edited post....

You won't have a soldier use the shotgun because they would suck with it. Shotguns are deadly in the hands of vanguards because of charge. So charge serves it's purpose as a valuable class ability by making a weapon every other class is garbage with, into a damned good one. That's always been the purpose of charge, and since it serves that purpose well then it;s a good power. End. Of. Story. The only people who don't think it's good are people who expected something charge never was. It's sole purpose is to get you into shot gun range without getting you kill on the way there.

Modifié par sinosleep, 06 février 2010 - 07:09 .

[Graunt]

sinosleep wrote...

I clearly don't need a sniper rifle or an assault rifle. I'm perfectly content and obviously quite proficient with just the shotty.

in regards to your edited post....

You won't have a soldier use the shotgun because they would suck with it. Shotguns are deadly in the hands of vanguards because of charge. So charge serves it's purpose as a valuable class ability by making a weapon every other class is garbage with, into a damned good one. That's always been the purpose of charge, and since it serves that purpose well then it;s a good power. End. Of. Story. The only people who don't think it's good are people who expected something charge never was. It's sole purpose is to get you into shot gun range without getting you kill on the way there.

I can see there's really no point in continuing any conversation with you on this subject.  You seem to not be able to comprehend all fo the downsides to using charge do not make up for those times where it shines and you shouldn't have to be in the higher levels to be able to play the Vanguard using the Vanguard's class defining ability without dying so much.

[Schneidend]

sinosleep wrote...

I clearly don't need a sniper rifle or an assault rifle. I'm perfectly content and obviously quite proficient with just the shotty.

in regards to your edited post....

You won't have a soldier use the shotgun because they would suck with it. Shotguns are deadly in the hands of vanguards because of charge. So charge serves it's purpose as a valuable class ability by making a weapon every other class is garbage with, into a damned good one. That's always been the purpose of charge, and since it serves that purpose well then it;s a good power. End. Of. Story. The only people who don't think it's good are people who expected something charge never was. It's sole purpose is to get you into shot gun range without getting you kill on the way there.

Pretty much this, though ample use of Hardened Adrenaline Rush makes Soldier-shotgunning possible, albeit not as efficiently as Charge.

[sinosleep]

Graunt wrote...

sinosleep wrote...

I clearly don't need a sniper rifle or an assault rifle. I'm perfectly content and obviously quite proficient with just the shotty.

in regards to your edited post....

You won't have a soldier use the shotgun because they would suck with it. Shotguns are deadly in the hands of vanguards because of charge. So charge serves it's purpose as a valuable class ability by making a weapon every other class is garbage with, into a damned good one. That's always been the purpose of charge, and since it serves that purpose well then it;s a good power. End. Of. Story. The only people who don't think it's good are people who expected something charge never was. It's sole purpose is to get you into shot gun range without getting you kill on the way there.

I can see there's really no point in continuing any conversation with you on this subject.  You seem to not be able to comprehend all fo the downsides to using charge do not make up for those times where it shines and you shouldn't have to be in the higher levels to be able to play the Vanguard using the Vanguard's class defining ability without dying so much.

I charge all the time, kill things quickly, and rarely die. I also see ample opportunities to use charge since most fire fights consist of everyone being near cover and around places that can be charged. During times when I can't charge, I just make use of my squad like anyone else would. Miranda overloads, I shoot with the pistol, Jacob pulls, Miranda warps, I keep shooting, etc, etc, etc. And I can damned sure tell you that those areas make up a SUBSTANTIALLY smaller portion of the game than areas where I can charge at will. So for me, charge shines most o the time, and is thus worth it.

[Hoffburger]

Widow does way more damage than any of the shotguns. There is no comparison. The Widow can be used to kill enemies that can't be charged. This thread is about optimality, not viability. A Soldier or Infiltrator is way more optimal than a Vanguard even when the Vanguard can charge everything. When you add in some enemies that can't be charged and are out of shotgun range (Mordin recruitment comes to mind) the Vanguard completely blows.

[sinosleep]

Hoffburger wrote...

Widow does way more damage than any of the shotguns. There is no comparison. The Widow can be used to kill enemies that can't be charged. This thread is about optimality, not viability. A Soldier or Infiltrator is way more optimal than a Vanguard even when the Vanguard can charge everything. When you add in some enemies that can't be charged and are out of shotgun range (Mordin recruitment comes to mind) the Vanguard completely blows.

Here's what you need to ask yourself Hoffburger, how much of that extra damage is WASTED when you shoot something? I mean seriously. Let just look at it practically. I've already proven that the claymore shotgun with max individual armor piercing ammo can one shot any standard mob. I showed it with both geth and vorcha. I then showed that it will two shot elite mobs like Geth Hunters. So at best, for the VAST MAJORITY of mobs in game we will either both kill it on one shot, or I'll have to shoot it twice, big friggen whoop. So then you move on that what's left in the game, the ultra elite mobs like scions and such. If I REALLY think it's going to be that big a pain in the ass, I'll just shoot it with a heavy weapon and then guess what, you aren't beating me any more there either.

That's why at the end of the day I consider it negligable. Yeah, on paper, the widow does a lot more damage. In practice though most of damage goes unused.

Modifié par sinosleep, 06 février 2010 - 08:02 .

[vhatever]

WTF would I get widow with my soldier when I can do twice its damage with the viper? Buy a clue, Hofflamer your widow fetish gets tiresome.

[Ingahootz]

vhatever wrote...

WTF would I get widow with my soldier when I can do twice its damage with the viper? Buy a clue, Hofflamer your widow fetish gets tiresome.

I can definitely see why he likes it so much. In most cases it's better to one shot trash mobs rather than letting them take cover again. Widow will clear rooms of trash much faster than the viper will in most cases. Viper's better for things that won't get one shot/don't take cover often.

IMO using Widow would clear most of the game quicker.

[vhatever]

Ingahootz wrote...

vhatever wrote...

WTF would I get widow with my soldier when I can do twice its damage with the viper? Buy a clue, Hofflamer your widow fetish gets tiresome.

I can definitely see why he likes it so much. In most cases it's better to one shot trash mobs rather than letting them take cover again. Widow will clear rooms of trash much faster than the viper will in most cases. Viper's better for things that won't get one shot/don't take cover often.

IMO using Widow would clear most of the game quicker.

No it wouldn't. The widow is slow caompred to viper with a soldier. And you can use the viper to stun luck yourself or a teammate out of a bad situation.  Widow is overkill on 75% of mobs that are headshottable, too. I can kill three drones and a harbringer in the time it would take the widow to kill one harbinger.

In short, the viper is much, much better. Unless you are infiltrator, then widow could be better,. But that's what happens when your entire game experience is "infiltrator mode" and you try to offer advice.

Modifié par vhatever, 06 février 2010 - 08:38 .

[Graunt]

I think something needs to be cleared up.  Is this thread strictly for level 30 builds running through Insanity+ or does it also include regular insanity leveling 1-28 (or 30 if you imported a 60)?  There's no real point in talking about optimal build orders if the character is already assumed max level.  If it's about what order to pick up abilities and who to bring with you (it should always depend on the scenario...after doing Horizon, I would say Jack with group Warp ammo would be a no brainer) where is the starting line, level 1 or does it not count until you hit the collector ship for weapon upgrades?  

Some classes inherently have a much quicker time reaching that point while others are very mid - late game bloomers.  If all we are talking about is speed running through from level 1, it would either be the Infiltrator or Soldier, followed by Sentinel.

Modifié par Graunt, 06 février 2010 - 08:40 .

[Ingahootz]

vhatever wrote...

Ingahootz wrote...

vhatever wrote...

WTF would I get widow with my soldier when I can do twice its damage with the viper? Buy a clue, Hofflamer your widow fetish gets tiresome.

I can definitely see why he likes it so much. In most cases it's better to one shot trash mobs rather than letting them take cover again. Widow will clear rooms of trash much faster than the viper will in most cases. Viper's better for things that won't get one shot/don't take cover often.

IMO using Widow would clear most of the game quicker.

No it wouldn't. The widow is slow caompred to viper with a soldier. And you can use the viper to stun luck yourself or a teammate out of a bad situation.  Widow is overkill on 75% of mobs that are headshottable, too. I can kill three drones and a harbringer in the time it would take the widow to kill one harbinger.

In short, the viper is much, much better. Unless you are infiltrator, then widow could be better,. But that's what happens when your entire game experience is "infiltrator mode" and you try to offer advice.

Soldier, Infiltrator, and Adept so far.

Love how you like going back to the insults.

You're forgetting that you're not exactly getting cloak damage mods that the Infiltrator gets so you're not really wasting a lot of damage. Also keep in mind that sometimes NPCs will be lame and hide under cover for a long time. Sometimes it's much better to have a weapon that can 1 shot them and get them out of the way if you're going for speed. Sometimes in other areas it's not. Harbinger is an exception where I'd much rather prefer to use the Viper, for obvious reasons.

[vhatever]

Not wasting a lot of damage? WTF are you talking about? And I don't care what classes you say you have played, it doesn't wash the ignorance off ya. When you get a headshot with the viper, it jerks their head/torso back. You can keep shooting them without any problem. The only enemies it's a pain in the ass to deal with are the mechs who do that stupid ass animation when they get shot in the head.



You and hoff like to claim a lot of stuff, but ti's obvious from your comments you know far less than you pretend.

[Ingahootz]

vhatever wrote...

Not wasting a lot of damage? WTF are you talking about? And I don't care what classes you say you have played, it doesn't wash the ignorance off ya. When you get a headshot with the viper, it jerks their head/torso back. You can keep shooting them without any problem. The only enemies it's a pain in the ass to deal with are the mechs who do that stupid ass animation when they get shot in the head.

You and hoff like to claim a lot of stuff, but ti's obvious from your comments you know far less than you pretend.

So you can stay out of cover and fire while your shields get torn to shreads? Sounds awefully inefficient to me. What you say sounds great in theory, but anyone that's actually played this game on Insanity knows that killing is much faster if it's in 1 shot (unless the gun has an ABSURDLY slow ROF). You're also making it sound like the Widow's ROF is aweful. It's really not that bad. If you have great aim you can very easily take out NPCs one after another very quickly.

You like to call others ignorant but it shines through on you as well sadly.

As I said, Widow vs Viper is purely situational but as a personal preference I'd take the WIdow over the Viper if I can to choose one gun to run with for the entire game.

You know, I'd almost go as far to say that the Widow is a better weapon on the Soldier than the Infiltrator for weaker targets (and you HAVE claimed that the Widow is better on the Infiltrator). Reason being is that at least on the Infiltrator you can get away with multiple shots using the Viper without getting shot back at (thanks to cloak). The Viper will also have a much better chance of killing NPCs a lot quicker on an Infiltrator.

[Hoffburger]

vhatever wrote...

Ingahootz wrote...

vhatever wrote...

WTF would I get widow with my soldier when I can do twice its damage with the viper? Buy a clue, Hofflamer your widow fetish gets tiresome.

I can definitely see why he likes it so much. In most cases it's better to one shot trash mobs rather than letting them take cover again. Widow will clear rooms of trash much faster than the viper will in most cases. Viper's better for things that won't get one shot/don't take cover often.

IMO using Widow would clear most of the game quicker.

No it wouldn't. The widow is slow caompred to viper with a soldier. And you can use the viper to stun luck yourself or a teammate out of a bad situation.  Widow is overkill on 75% of mobs that are headshottable, too. I can kill three drones and a harbringer in the time it would take the widow to kill one harbinger.

In short, the viper is much, much better. Unless you are infiltrator, then widow could be better,. But that's what happens when your entire game experience is "infiltrator mode" and you try to offer advice.

Viper refire rate according to the .ini is .65 seconds with 81.9 damage per shot. So if you fire off the whole magazine as fast as possible you do 982.8 damage in 7.8 seconds (7.8 could be wrong, not sure because it seems like you can fire off the magazine quicker, will have to actually test it sometime today). In that same time, using 2.5 seconds as a baseline for how fast you can fire shots off with the Widow (you can reload in 1.5 seconds so adding another second is biasing it towards the Viper, especially since good shooter gamers can fire them off nearly immediately after reloading). In 7.8 seconds you can get off 3 rounds with the Widow at 368.3 damage a piece for 1104.9 damage.

Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out which does more DPS, if you factor in that the Viper has to reload for 1.5 seconds after the 7.8 seconds of firing the gap widens even more.

The Revenant fires 700/minute or 11.67/second and holds 80 rounds for 21.3 damage a pop. This equals 1704 damage in 6.857 seconds assuming you can land every single round (which is only possible at point blank range with the Revenant). The Vindicator fires 3 rounds every .625 seconds or 4.8/second  for 36.8 damage a piece. This equals 1211.22 in 6.857 seconds and the Vindicator is basically sniper rifle accurate. So yes the Revenant will do more damage than the Vindicator at point blank range, but more often than not, this will not be the distance you are fighting at. Yes you can burst fire the Revenant to make it more accurate, but that will let the Vindicator catch up because it slows down your RoF. This doesn't take into account that the Revenant is medium penetration vs. light on the VIndicator because I have no clue what that means and can only assume it does more damage to armored foes. The gap widens even more depending on how much more damage a headshot gives since the Vindicator will get way more than the Revenant.

Also, since Sniper Rifles get a +50% damage increase over Assault Rifles due to the headshot upgrade, the Widow still does nearly the same damage as the Revenant even when you assume that the Revenant can hit with all 80 rounds on the head of an enemy (which will never happen). Also, Assault rifles get a 2x damage bonus in melee range so yea if you are that close the Revenant blows everything out of the water, but as I said, that's not usually the case.

As was said before, being able to instantly kill enemies is much more valuable because they don't have a chance to pop back behind cover, thus making your kill times even longer.

So there you have it, you can choose the Revenant if you want a slight damage increase over the Vindicator only when fighting within melee distance or you can take the Widow which always does more damage than the Viper.

Kinda sucks when you don't know how to form a coherent argument with evidence because you have down syndrome doesn't it vhatever? Please try again, your complete lack of any intellectual thought amazes me and keeps me entertained.