115 réponses à ce sujet

[ashmiranda3waymm]

El-Destructo wrote...

Giving the collector base to the Illusive man is about as likely to end well as giving a certain anvil to a certain dwarf in a certain other bioware title.

Except the Golems you get are the best army by far, so...

[VettoRyouzou]

I'll sum this up I'd quicker Kiss Udina then give TiM the base.

[Invalidcode]

darkwonders wrote...

Invalidcode wrote...

darkwonders wrote...

In Legion's Side quest, saving the geth was good, but destroying the geth was bad.

No, Leave those geth alone = Bad, do something about it (blow them up or rewrite)= Good

Your action wasn't a choice of Good vs Bad. Both actions are good since it stops those Geth from helping the Reavers, reavers are the bad guys in ME (from PC's pov anyways).

But the geth have always been thought of evil well before the reapers... quarians hate them, they stay at the edge of the universe for a reason because they were hostile towards organics... 

One of the team members said it would change their mind... for now... 

Even Legion said that the heretics who followed the reapers weren't wrong. They just had a different logical view. It just seems that having synthetics around at all is a bad idea based on everything that is shown about them...

Well it really depends on your POV, I take PC's pov in this case. Quarian hate geth for sure, with good reasons. But the Geth had to fight back during the Morning war, Quarians were trying to wipe them out. For Quarian & Geth, you can't judge by good vs evil as a human. It was a war fighting for survival between themselves.

As for the Geth vs heretics, I am taking PC's pov again. PC's main goal is to stop the reavers, if no ones stops them the galaxy races will be wiped out or worst, suffer like the collectors. So if you leave the heretics alone it will be really bad news for the ME galaxy. Legion side of truth geth (let's say we trust Legion for now), seems like a pretty reasonable race and they will fight the reavers. 

[Exploding8]

Deuterium_Dawn wrote...

Exploding8 wrote...

Considering the fact that the Illusive Man wants Humanity to take over the entire galaxy, it seems pretty easy to figure out that giving him his key to doing that is a renegade move.

What? Cerberus is about human survival and advancement, not galactic conquest.

Iirc, at the end the Illusive Man reveals his true intentions regarding the Human Race and its place in the universe. He even basically says he wants the power for Cerberus, saying power for Cerberus is power for human kind. I'd have to watch the ending a second time to be completely sure though. 

[ashmiranda3waymm]

VettoRyouzou wrote...

I'll sum this up I'd quicker Kiss Udina then give TiM the base.

It's very easy to be all idealistic while playing a video game, but if you would doom a defenseless galaxy to destruction by the Reapers with NO viable alternative to stop them, well, I'll just say I hope you're never in charge of anything that could cost the lives of innocent people.

[RandomPot322]

Aren't the Geth portrayed not as villians in this game?

And the ones you fought before as Heretics and not True Geth. So how is saving them (making them true geths) bad?

Unless you assume Legion is lying too you. (which he seems not to understand why one would lie)

[ashmiranda3waymm]

Exploding8 wrote...

Iirc, at the end the Illusive Man reveals his true intentions regarding the Human Race and its place in the universe. He even basically says he wants the power for Cerberus, saying power for Cerberus is power for human kind. I'd have to watch the ending a second time to be completely sure though. 

Cerberus' is TIM's means of advancing humanity. It is only natural he would want Cerberus to become more influential so they could carry out their purpose more effectively. Whether or not you believe that is his purpose is up to you, but wanting to strengthen Cerberus and humanity go hand in hand from his perspective.

[VettoRyouzou]

ashmiranda3waymm wrote...

VettoRyouzou wrote...

I'll sum this up I'd quicker Kiss Udina then give TiM the base.

It's very easy to be all idealistic while playing a video game, but if you would doom a defenseless galaxy to destruction by the Reapers with NO viable alternative to stop them, well, I'll just say I hope you're never in charge of anything that could cost the lives of innocent people.

In the same term if you had to save the galaxy by giving a weapon of mass destruction to the equivalent of Hitler there not much saving now is it.

[ashmiranda3waymm]

VettoRyouzou wrote...

In the same term if you had to save the galaxy by giving a weapon of mass destruction to the equivalent of Hitler there not much saving now is it.

I absolutely would give a WMD to Hitler before I saw the galaxy destroyed. That is a ridiculously easy decision.

Destruction of galaxy is way worse than Hitler.

Deal with the force threatening ALL life then the lesser evils can be dealt with imo.

[Maxiric]

There is no feasible way to give the base to Alliance/Citadel. Its non-mobile, so the only way to it is to go through the omega relay, and they would never even attempt that, especially as its in Terminus space.



From the datapad with the reaper picture that Joker give you in the ending I assume that some information was download, probably by EDI. There is also the fact that she hacked much of the collector information from the ship that you boarded.

[Deuterium_Dawn]

VettoRyouzou wrote...

ashmiranda3waymm wrote...

VettoRyouzou wrote...

I'll sum this up I'd quicker Kiss Udina then give TiM the base.

It's very easy to be all idealistic while playing a video game, but if you would doom a defenseless galaxy to destruction by the Reapers with NO viable alternative to stop them, well, I'll just say I hope you're never in charge of anything that could cost the lives of innocent people.

In the same term if you had to save the galaxy by giving a weapon of mass destruction to the equivalent of Hitler there not much saving now is it.

TIM is not hitler. He doesn't view other species as inferior, he's not committing genocide or attempting to conquer the galaxy. He is trying to advance his own people via some oftentimes questionable methods. You could argue that he's evil, but he is not hitler, not by a long shot. Also Godwin wins again.

[VettoRyouzou]

ashmiranda3waymm wrote...

VettoRyouzou wrote...

In the same term if you had to save the galaxy by giving a weapon of mass destruction to the equivalent of Hitler there not much saving now is it.

I absolutely would give a WMD to Hitler before I saw the galaxy destroyed. That is a ridiculously easy decision.

Destruction of galaxy is way worse than Hitler.

Deal with the force threatening ALL life then the lesser evils can be dealt with imo.

Vs a Man who would wipe out all other races and most likely enslave the humans that are left.. oh wait.. isn't that EXACLY what the reapers do.

Again your to easy to think there only one side to win this and depend on the actions of 1 lone man and some tech that for all we know he may not understand in time and give up a galaxy full of more stable and reliable allies. The Reaper won there war threw surprise attacks and separation of the races being cut off that not the case this time so this is as uncharted for them as it gets.


To sum it up let hope nether of us has this choice case it just as easy to think for the greater good with out realizing you’re damning the rest of the galaxy for the sake saving your own ass.

Deuterium_Dawn wrote...

VettoRyouzou wrote...

ashmiranda3waymm wrote...

VettoRyouzou wrote...

I'll sum this up I'd quicker Kiss Udina then give TiM the base.

It's
very easy to be all idealistic while playing a video game, but if you
would doom a defenseless galaxy to destruction by the Reapers with NO
viable alternative to stop them, well, I'll just say I hope you're
never in charge of anything that could cost the lives of innocent
people.

In the same term if you had to save the
galaxy by giving a weapon of mass destruction to the equivalent of
Hitler there not much saving now is it.

TIM is
not hitler. He doesn't view other species as inferior, he's not
committing genocide or attempting to conquer the galaxy. He is trying
to advance his own people via some oftentimes questionable methods. You
could argue that he's evil, but he is not hitler, not by a long shot.
Also Godwin wins again.

Hitler started the same way he just wanted to "Improve" the german people then one thing lead to another and we had the holocaust. Remember the road to ruin is the one with the most shiny lights.

Modifié par VettoRyouzou, 02 février 2010 - 11:32 .

[RandomPot322]

This is what makes Bioware games great. The discussion of what is right, and what is wrong. Bioware didn't say that saving the base was the wrong thing to do, just the renegade option. Renegade isn't necessarily wrong. After all, the Paragon choice is not always the smarter choice.

It's obvious that Idealism makes up the Paragon choices, and Cynicism makes up Renegade. So why don't we start thinking of them like that instead of good and evil?

[aaniadyen]

ashmiranda3waymm wrote...

El-Destructo wrote...

Giving the collector base to the Illusive man is about as likely to end well as giving a certain anvil to a certain dwarf in a certain other bioware title.

Except the Golems you get are the best army by far, so...

And the reaper tech wouldn't yield incredible results?

[ashmiranda3waymm]

VettoRyouzou wrote...

Vs a Man who would wipe out all other races and most likely enslave the humans that are left.. oh wait.. isn't that EXACLY what the reapers do.

Again your to easy to think there only one side to win this and depend on the actions of 1 lone man and some tech that for all we know he may not understand in time and give up a galaxy full of more stable and reliable allies. The Reaper won there war threw surprise attacks and separation of the races being cut off that not the case this time so this is as uncharted for them as it gets.


To sum it up let hope nether of us has this choice case it just as easy to think for the greater good with out realizing you’re damning the rest of the galaxy for the sake saving your own ass.

I have no reason to believe TIM does not have humanity's best interest in mind. So the dilemma for me is:

1) Should I do the idealistic thing and doom the galaxy to destruction?

or

2) Should I take a risk and give this guy what he needs to stop the Reapers?

Ok best case scenario for number 1 is...the galaxy is destroyed.

Worst case scenario for number 2 is the same.

I'll take number 2.

[ashmiranda3waymm]

aaniadyen wrote...

ashmiranda3waymm wrote...

El-Destructo wrote...

Giving the collector base to the Illusive man is about as likely to end well as giving a certain anvil to a certain dwarf in a certain other bioware title.

Except the Golems you get are the best army by far, so...

And the reaper tech wouldn't yield incredible results?

No that's what I'm saying...use the tech.

[Vaenier]

I don't understand how saving the Collector base automatically means you give it to TIM.

[darkwonders]

RandomPot322 wrote...

This is what makes Bioware games great. The discussion of what is right, and what is wrong. Bioware didn't say that saving the base was the wrong thing to do, just the renegade option. Renegade isn't necessarily wrong. After all, the Paragon choice is not always the smarter choice.
It's obvious that Idealism makes up the Paragon choices, and Cynicism makes up Renegade. So why don't we start thinking of them like that instead of good and evil?

That's true...

I had about 40% paragon by the end of the game because of decisions like that... While my character is ruthless, she is smart. 

I decided to destroy the base because look what happened to the normandy when the IFF chip was installed. It backfired. 

And although my character was renegade, she still hated Cerberus, and was only helping them because She had to at the time. She didn't want to be used by Cerberus anymore, so she destroyed the base like she intended too...

I also rationalized saving the geth because they could prove to be a viable army against the reapers, even though that was the paragon choice. It was purely from experience that I chose paragon for both of those... 

Not because they were the "good" choice, but because they were the logical choice at the time. Reaper technology cannot be trusted, but we also need as much help as we can get via the geth against the reapers.

[RandomPot322]

ashmiranda3waymm wrote...

I have no reason to believe TIM does not have humanity's best interest in mind. So the dilemma for me is:

1) Should I do the idealistic thing and doom the galaxy to destruction?

or

2) Should I take a risk and give this guy what he needs to stop the Reapers?

Ok best case scenario for number 1 is...the galaxy is destroyed.

Worst case scenario for number 2 is the same.

I'll take number 2.

See, the problem is while TIM has humanity's best interest in mind, he doesn't have the Galaxy's best interest in mind.
See, like Hitler, he believes that a specific race is better than other races. He believes that Turians, Quarians, Volus, Hanar, Drell, Salarians, Asari, etc. are beneath humans.
And even then, Best case scenario for one is not galaxy destroyed. Best case scenario is Reapers defeated and everyone goes home. WORST case scenario is every dies.
Really what you're arguing over is who gets to be the warlord, Mankind or the Reapers. Sure that's great for Mankind, but sucks for everyone else.

[VettoRyouzou]

ashmiranda3waymm wrote...

VettoRyouzou wrote...

Vs a Man who would wipe out all other races and most likely enslave the humans that are left.. oh wait.. isn't that EXACLY what the reapers do.

Again your to easy to think there only one side to win this and depend on the actions of 1 lone man and some tech that for all we know he may not understand in time and give up a galaxy full of more stable and reliable allies. The Reaper won there war threw surprise attacks and separation of the races being cut off that not the case this time so this is as uncharted for them as it gets.


To sum it up let hope nether of us has this choice case it just as easy to think for the greater good with out realizing you’re damning the rest of the galaxy for the sake saving your own ass.

I have no reason to believe TIM does not have humanity's best interest in mind. So the dilemma for me is:

1) Should I do the idealistic thing and doom the galaxy to destruction?

or

2) Should I take a risk and give this guy what he needs to stop the Reapers?

Ok best case scenario for number 1 is...the galaxy is destroyed.

Worst case scenario for number 2 is the same.

I'll take number 2.

Again your to easy to trust and your to easy to dismiss other races, did you even pay attention to how reaper tech works? AT ALL!? It just not machines it living life being liquefied into bio maniac substances this is all reaper tech how do you think he will find the resources needed to use it by waving a happy magic fairy wand and making the **** appear out of thin air? No he going to have to sacrifice a hell of allot lives to use the tech correctly and it won't be human lives until there so little he need to turn to humans.

To sum it up the end don't justify the means id sooner trust the Geth But again in your head if you "save" the galaxy it doesn't matter by your own logic your no better then Saren he found a way to save us all threw enslavement and obedient and then you sit here and say TiM not capable of the same thing He kills anyone who get to close to his little to uncovering the truth I saw a dead admiral to prove that his attention are nothing pure not even close.


So you live in your naïve world that dooming everyone else to save your own ass is worth it.

[ashmiranda3waymm]

RandomPot322 wrote...

See, the problem is while TIM has humanity's best interest in mind, he doesn't have the Galaxy's best interest in mind.
See, like Hitler, he believes that a specific race is better than other races. He believes that Turians, Quarians, Volus, Hanar, Drell, Salarians, Asari, etc. are beneath humans.
And even then, Best case scenario for one is not galaxy destroyed. Best case scenario is Reapers defeated and everyone goes home. WORST case scenario is every dies.
Really what you're arguing over is who gets to be the warlord, Mankind or the Reapers. Sure that's great for Mankind, but sucks for everyone else.

Like I've said before, Bioware will make a way for people who destroyed the base to defeat the reapers. However, if you were in that situation you would know there are currently no viable ways to fight the Reapers. Now we have one. We have to use it.

Ok even if humanity takes over and rules with an iron fist and all the other races are subject to them. If the only other option is death, well, you think about it...

[VettoRyouzou]

ashmiranda3waymm wrote...

RandomPot322 wrote...

See, the problem is while TIM has humanity's best interest in mind, he doesn't have the Galaxy's best interest in mind.
See, like Hitler, he believes that a specific race is better than other races. He believes that Turians, Quarians, Volus, Hanar, Drell, Salarians, Asari, etc. are beneath humans.
And even then, Best case scenario for one is not galaxy destroyed. Best case scenario is Reapers defeated and everyone goes home. WORST case scenario is every dies.
Really what you're arguing over is who gets to be the warlord, Mankind or the Reapers. Sure that's great for Mankind, but sucks for everyone else.

Like I've said before, Bioware will make a way for people who destroyed the base to defeat the reapers. However, if you were in that situation you would know there are currently no viable ways to fight the Reapers. Now we have one. We have to use it.

Ok even if humanity takes over and rules with an iron fist and all the other races are subject to them. If the only other option is death, well, you think about it...

It easy to say when you yourself are human, in your own logic you be the first to kill Jews if it meant you as a german would be saved. This is Hitler exact logic.

[A-Chu]

I actually destroyed the Heretic Geth. I saw it as the best choice for both Geth and the Galaxy.



If you talk to Legion before you make the choice. The 're-writing' changes the heretics viewpoint sure.. but, the heretic memories will still be there for inclusion into the Geth society. As well, as Legion said, there is no sure way to guarentee those Geth just won't go Heretic again and cause a mess.



To this end, I see destroying the Heretic Geth better in the end and for the galaxy as a whole, as you do not have to worry about the Heretic Geth's memories adversely affecting the Regular Geth negatively, nor do you have to worry about those rewritten Geth reverting or even.. (since they had the Regular Geth patrol routes).. subverting the Regular Geth. Hell, for all we knew the Heretic Geth even had some 'Reaper' Virus or rootcodes hidden in their processes that would subvert the entire Geth Race.

[ashmiranda3waymm]

VettoRyouzou wrote...


Again your to easy to trust and your to easy to dismiss other races, did you even pay attention to how reaper tech works? AT ALL!? It just not machines it living life being liquefied into bio maniac substances this is all reaper tech how do you think he will find the resources needed to use it by waving a happy magic fairy wand and making the **** appear out of thin air? No he going to have to sacrifice a hell of allot lives to use the tech correctly and it won't be human lives until there so little he need to turn to humans.

To sum it up the end don't justify the means id sooner trust the Geth But again in your head if you "save" the galaxy it doesn't matter by your own logic your no better then Saren he found a way to save us all threw enslavement and obedient and then you sit here and say TiM not capable of the same thing He kills anyone who get to close to his little to uncovering the truth I saw a dead admiral to prove that his attention are nothing pure not even close.


So you live in your naïve world that dooming everyone else to save your own ass is worth it.

I do not really see what this has to do with the PC, but whatever. I think it's ironic that I'm being called out as naive, but also whatever. I grow weary of this argument. Goodnight.

[RandomPot322]

ashmiranda3waymm wrote...

RandomPot322 wrote...

See, the problem is while TIM has humanity's best interest in mind, he doesn't have the Galaxy's best interest in mind.
See, like Hitler, he believes that a specific race is better than other races. He believes that Turians, Quarians, Volus, Hanar, Drell, Salarians, Asari, etc. are beneath humans.
And even then, Best case scenario for one is not galaxy destroyed. Best case scenario is Reapers defeated and everyone goes home. WORST case scenario is every dies.
Really what you're arguing over is who gets to be the warlord, Mankind or the Reapers. Sure that's great for Mankind, but sucks for everyone else.

Like I've said before, Bioware will make a way for people who destroyed the base to defeat the reapers. However, if you were in that situation you would know there are currently no viable ways to fight the Reapers. Now we have one. We have to use it.

Ok even if humanity takes over and rules with an iron fist and all the other races are subject to them. If the only other option is death, well, you think about it...

Well if I'm Garrus, I might choose Death. If I'm Tali, or Thane, or Liara, or Wrex.
In that situation the pragmatic thing to do is keep it. I won't deny that.
I admit, I'm idealistic in that regard.
But also know that Reaper tech is bad. Collector Tech is based off Reaper Tech, because the Reapers are the ones using them. like we know that Geth Heretics were using Reaper Tech for the Husks.
We know that a derelict Reaper can still influence people. I have no idea how the base will influence those there. OR even whatever safeguards Reaper's had in place incase you succeeded.
It's a dual edged sword. when it works, it's great, when it doesn't, it'll cut your head off.