115 réponses à ce sujet

[lokiarchetype]

TIM makes it clear his intentions for the base go beyond just using it to defeat the reapers, he intends to use to establish humans as the dominant power in the galaxy.

Additionally, the base is ethically dubious in terms of its construction and operation. You'd be using devices that were created from the lives on thousands of people.

As such, the choice to keep it is renegade.


Saving the Geth is pretty clear. Saving lives but changing them vs destroying them outright. The Geth aren't bad guys. The Heretics are the anti-organic ones and they're a very small proportion of the Geth (the codex says about 5-10% I believe). 
Legion is the only 'Geth' you meet over the course of the two games.  Hating the Geth due to the Heretics' actions is a highly suspect position.
If you talk to Legion it seems like the Geth are perfectly willing to have peaceful resolutions with the Quarians, they don't even inhabit the homeworld, they just caretake it while they live in space.  They just know the Quarians aren't ready yet.  When it comes to Quarians vs the true Geth, Quarians are the bad guys.

Modifié par lokiarchetype, 02 février 2010 - 11:58 .

[El-Destructo]

aaniadyen wrote...

And the reaper tech wouldn't yield incredible results?

I don't personally trust TIM to simply study the base to research weaknesses on the Reapers, all I can see is him having a power trip and feeding people to that blender in an attempt to create an army of reapers to 'defend humanity'. Which even though it will most likely blow up in his face and only add to everyones problems since reaper tech is volatile and unpredictable, is a bit too much 'means' for my liking to justify any ends.

I will definately end up giving him the base in one playthrough just to see what becomes of it in the third game. The potential ramifications are far greater than choosing between saving the council or not at the end of the first game.

[Deuterium_Dawn]

VettoRyouzou wrote...



Hitler started the same way he just wanted to "Improve" the german people then one thing lead to another and we had the holocaust. Remember the road to ruin is the one with the most shiny lights.

One thing didn't lead to another. He set out on a campaign of conquest and genocide because he believed all other peoples were inferior. TIM is just trying to protect and advance humanity. No conquest, no genocide, and he never claims other species are inferior. He is just looking out for his own, like everyone else does.

[Deuterium_Dawn]

lokiarchetype wrote...

TIM makes it clear his intentions for the base go beyond just using it to defeat the reapers, he intends to use to establish humans as the dominant power in the galaxy.

Additionally, the base is ethically dubious in terms of its construction and operation. You'd be using devices that were created from the lives on thousands of people.

So why not make their sacrifice worth something? They're already dead, you can't bring them back. Also I think all those people went into the reaper, not the base itself.

Saving the Geth is pretty clear. Saving lives but changing them vs destroying them outright. The Geth aren't bad guys. The Heretics are the anti-organic ones and they're a very small proportion of the Geth (the codex says about 5-10% I believe). 
Legion is the only 'Geth' you meet over the course of the two games.  Hating the Geth due to the Heretics' actions is a highly suspect position.

Except for the fact that the so called "true geth" knew of soveriegn and his recruitment of the "heretics" and did nothing and told no one. Guilty by association.

[Tamcia]

I chose destroy and I believe it is the good choice. Those Geth chose that way, they chose to support reapers and wage war on organics. They lost. It's better to destroy them, then enslave their minds and force a view that is ours. They wanted to do the same - make the rest of the normal geth to follow reapers, via a virus. It's taking away your free will and becoming a slave in the mind which is worse then a slave in body.



As for collector base - destroy as well. Cerberus are radicals that will see other races enslaved or used for resources in that base. The derilict reaper drove the team mad, Saren, Benezia, could not resist the influence. There is he danger of this again. The technology there is based on reapers. Reaper goal was to control technological advancement, so very race would go for mass effect, not other type. Getting that base would just help them with that - in any case the reapers wouldn't leave critical tech with collectors. Laslty I don't want human dominance in galaxy and especially Cerberus gaining more power. It's an evil place which must bedestoryed. I'd rather go collect tech from ancient ships in that system - learn what was going on before.

[lokiarchetype]

Deuterium_Dawn wrote...

So why not make their sacrifice worth something? They're already dead, you can't bring them back. Also I think all those people went into the reaper, not the base itself.

That's not a paragon viewpoint though.  Paragons are "We don't need your blood money!" kinda people.  Paragon Shep even tells TIM "I'm going to save humanity without sacrificing it's soul". 
If a Paragon is going to save the universe, they're going to do it the 'right way' and not get their hands dirty.

Except for the fact that the so called "true geth" knew of soveriegn and his recruitment of the "heretics" and did nothing and told no one. Guilty by association.

That's not guilty by association. that's more "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing"

This is an ignorant position anyways, since you're acting like a Geth ambassador would a) be welcomed and  be listened to.  Instead of, you know, shot on sight.

You tell the Council about the Reapers and they don't listen to you, why would they listen to a Geth?

Speaking of which, the Council were informed of the Reapers and did nothing, guess that means we should kill them too?  I think you people just really, really want to hate the Geth, no matter what the story says about them.

Modifié par lokiarchetype, 03 février 2010 - 02:01 .

[Vaenier]

lokiarchetype wrote...

Speaking of which, the Council were informed of the Reapers and did nothing, guess that means we should kill them too?

Yes.

[NightAntilli]

Vaenier wrote...

I am a 100% paragon player, and i chose to save the collector base. What moron would destroy the key to understanding how reapers are made, and the only way to figure out their weaknesses?
I wouldn't give it to TIM, but I think Bioware kinda made me... not entirely sure what happens to it since the game ends there. If i had my way, i would have full oversight of the base's research (I do have the only ship capable of getting there, so i am pretty sure i already do have complete control of who gets to play with the reaper factory.)

You probably saw the smile on TIM's face.. That certainly does NOT look good.. lol

[Vaenier]

NightAntilli wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

I am a 100% paragon player, and i chose to save the collector base. What moron would destroy the key to understanding how reapers are made, and the only way to figure out their weaknesses?
I wouldn't give it to TIM, but I think Bioware kinda made me... not entirely sure what happens to it since the game ends there. If i had my way, i would have full oversight of the base's research (I do have the only ship capable of getting there, so i am pretty sure i already do have complete control of who gets to play with the reaper factory.)

You probably saw the smile on TIM's face.. That certainly does NOT look good.. lol

I did. That is why I am confused. I dont understand how saving the base means I gave it to TIM. I saved the base so I could use it as a clubhouse, not so TIM could build a Reaper.
He better not steal it from me in ME3, or i am guna shove my boot so far up his ass, he is guna wish the Reapers were invading.

[ashmiranda3waymm]

lokiarchetype wrote...

That's not a paragon viewpoint though.  Paragons are "We don't need your blood money!" kinda people.  Paragon Shep even tells TIM "I'm going to save humanity without sacrificing it's soul". 
If a Paragon is going to save the universe, they're going to do it the 'right way' and not get their hands dirty.

I think the difference between us is: you're playing a video game, but I'm making decisions based on what I would do in reality. If you think every situation (especially ones involving warfare) can be solved without getting your hands dirty then you are terribly naive.

[this isnt my name]

I would never give up the base, because chances are theat tech will only be used against you when your stabbed in the back.

[lokiarchetype]

Vaenier wrote...

NightAntilli wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

I am a 100% paragon player, and i chose to save the collector base. What moron would destroy the key to understanding how reapers are made, and the only way to figure out their weaknesses?
I wouldn't give it to TIM, but I think Bioware kinda made me... not entirely sure what happens to it since the game ends there. If i had my way, i would have full oversight of the base's research (I do have the only ship capable of getting there, so i am pretty sure i already do have complete control of who gets to play with the reaper factory.)

You probably saw the smile on TIM's face.. That certainly does NOT look good.. lol

I did. That is why I am confused. I dont understand how saving the base means I gave it to TIM. I saved the base so I could use it as a clubhouse, not so TIM could build a Reaper.
He better not steal it from me in ME3, or i am guna shove my boot so far up his ass, he is guna wish the Reapers were invading.

TIM probably has Sovereigns IFF chip, he made you get the hard one because keeping the base was his plan the whole time and he wanted to make sure he had his own way through the relay.

You better hope EDI loves Joker enough that she doesn't space you all.  Who knows what contingencies she was programmed for.

I think the difference between us is: you're playing a video game, but I'm making decisions based on what I would do in reality. If you think every situation (especially ones involving warfare) can be solved without getting your hands dirty then you are terribly naive.

I think the difference between us is that I'm explaining why the position is the paragon choice, and you're reading into it.  Whether or not you think it's naive, thats what the alignment dictates.  Paragon is idealism, and the idealistic response is to blow the thing up because it's "an abomination".  Renegade is cynicism, and the cynical response is "If someone hands you a weapon, you don't complain if its dirty"
Personally, I kept the base on my first playthrough.

Modifié par lokiarchetype, 03 février 2010 - 02:26 .

[Frotality]

because Bioware thought they could answer the question of whether it is better to live a slave or die free in the form of one-sided morality choices.

none of the choices are the problem, the morality system tied to them is. they really need to take the dragon age path and let us use our own damn moral code and suffer the consequences for it in a tangible, external consequences (like having geth army in ME3 or not) and not frakking good/evil points. say whatever you will about the para/renegade system, but unless it deals in every possible variance of moral perspective, the system is too linear for proper use, and since thousands if not millions of variations exist (not...sigh...2), it is much simpler and indeed more enjoyable to let the player decide their own morality.

[Vaenier]

lokiarchetype wrote...
TIM probably has Sovereigns IFF chip, he made you get the hard one because keeping the base was his plan the whole time and he wanted to make sure he had his own way through the relay.

You better hope EDI loves Joker enough that she doesn't space you all.  Who knows what contingencies she was programmed for.

Gah! Bastard! now i am guna get my boot all dirty reclaiming my base

[KnightofPhoenix]

I honestly don't care what lables Bioware decides to use on those 2 actions. I rewrote the geth, told Mordin to make the genophage cure and preserved the station. Whatever you wish to call thsoe actions is inconsequential.

[ashmiranda3waymm]

lokiarchetype wrote...

I think the difference between us is that I'm explaining why the position is the paragon choice, and you're reading into it.  Whether or not you think it's naive, thats what the alignment dictates.  Paragon is idealism, and the idealistic response is to blow the thing up because it's "an abomination".  Renegade is cynicism, and the cynical response is "If someone hands you a weapon, you don't complain if its dirty"
Personally, I kept the base on my first playthrough.

I recognize my error. I apologize for my misinterpretation.

[ashmiranda3waymm]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I honestly don't care what lables Bioware decides to use on those 2 actions. I rewrote the geth, told Mordin to make the genophage cure and preserved the station. Whatever you wish to call thsoe actions is inconsequential.

Looks like someone is setting up to build his ME3 army lol.

[lokiarchetype]

Vaenier wrote...

lokiarchetype wrote...
TIM probably has Sovereigns IFF chip, he made you get the hard one because keeping the base was his plan the whole time and he wanted to make sure he had his own way through the relay.

You better hope EDI loves Joker enough that she doesn't space you all.  Who knows what contingencies she was programmed for.

Gah! Bastard! now i am guna get my boot all dirty reclaiming my base

Goodluck with that.  The IFF chip from 50 million years ago still managed to alert the other reapers to its usage and it was only a pocket sized component.  The long dead reaper corpse still managed to indoctrinate a whole science team crew and it had been dead for millennia.

The collector base was built with reaper technology, and reaper technology seems to be built with the intention of luring others into using it in order to entrap them, including the citadel and mass relays.

Modifié par lokiarchetype, 03 février 2010 - 02:35 .

[hexediter]

Since most all nerds here should have read (or seen /sigh) lord of the rings, I'll just say that it's comparable to using the ring to destroy sauran vs trying to destroy the ring.  And indeed I would expect most humans who value power to use the ring in such a fasion.  However, this is your choice, you are the hero.  You get to decide if the cost of power (you saw what the dead reaper did to those reasearching it) is worth it.

[KnightofPhoenix]

ashmiranda3waymm wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I honestly don't care what lables Bioware decides to use on those 2 actions. I rewrote the geth, told Mordin to make the genophage cure and preserved the station. Whatever you wish to call thsoe actions is inconsequential.

Looks like someone is setting up to build his ME3 army lol.

That was presicely my thinking.

As to what will happen after the reapers are defeated. That's why I wanted the base. Humanity's dominance will be assured and not even the krogans can do anythign about it.

TIM would like me. He looks just like my father in real life in fact.

[lokiarchetype]

hexediter wrote...

Since most all nerds here should have read (or seen /sigh) lord of the rings, I'll just say that it's comparable to using the ring to destroy sauran vs trying to destroy the ring.  And indeed I would expect most humans who value power to use the ring in such a fasion.  However, this is your choice, you are the hero.  You get to decide if the cost of power (you saw what the dead reaper did to those reasearching it) is worth it.

For Bookworms
We cannot use the Collector Base. That we now know too well. It belongs to Harbinger and was made by him alone, and is altogether evil.
Its strength, TIM, is too great for anyone to wield at will, save only those who have already a great power of their own. But for them it holds an even deadlier peril. The very desire of it corrupts the heart.

For Movie Buffs
TIM: It is a gift!

Modifié par lokiarchetype, 03 février 2010 - 02:39 .

[Inverness Moon]

Deuterium_Dawn wrote...

Exploding8 wrote...

Considering the fact that the Illusive Man wants Humanity to take over the entire galaxy, it seems pretty easy to figure out that giving him his key to doing that is a renegade move.

What? Cerberus is about human survival and advancement, not galactic conquest.

QFT

Too many people make the leap that TIM has the cliched goal of conquering the galaxy.